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My opinion of blast is it should work kinda like gas does for shields.


(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx
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I've mentioned this before but because DE officially stated they consider armor scaling to be broken, I thought id mention again.

Why does gas do a good job with shields? Does damage to the target's health through the shield, and since many targets have more shield than health, you can often kill the target before breaking their shield.

In the case of blast, yeah sure it rag dolls enemies which is...usually something we'd rather not happen which is a mark against the damage type instead of for it.

The reason I feel that blast should kind of like be a substitute for gas on shields is because the concussive force of a blast is going to ring through the armor into the soft tissues beneath. It's kinda like this. Imagine a huge church bell, like, one of those you coould have three people lay head to toe across the bottom and still have room to spare. Now the clapper for these looking something like a battering ram, if you're standing inside of one of these things when it gets rung, you're going to go instantly deaf. And probably bleed from the ears, but if any part of your body is touching the wall of that bell when it gets struck, you're probably going to have shattered bones and massive internal bleeding in the effected area...If your head was directly touching the wall without heavy heavy heavy padding you're probably going to die. That's a reality of armor, you can build armor to stop any bullet, but you only have so much room for padding, and armor without padding can stop shrapnel but you'll still have concussion, possibly broken bones, and there's a certain radius of an explosion where you're pretty likely going to die even if there is no penetration because the concussive force is just going to liquefy your insides. So just like gas bypassing shields because you've tainted the air, blast should bypass armor because...blasts do.

So what i would suggest on the matter is 1 rework healthbars to instead be a side by side showing shield and health, have a stacked bar showing yellow for armor, blue for shield, read for true health. Shield can be depleted, but also recharge, armor can be stripped but it takes more effort, but have mechanics that allow direct damage to health for armored targets as well as shielded targets. this would resolve a lot of the scaling issues that they are are admitting to happen and there are logical, real world reasons to implement that kind of system if that's really what they want as an excuse. Honestly sticking a talon to a target and setting it off in all reality 100% would be more damaging to an armored target than spraying them down with acid. Assuming they don't have any skin exposed of course....

Anyway, just a thought. I'm sure theyve tried something like this before and it didn't work.

(Edit: Come to think of it it also gives reasons for things like concealed explosives and thunderbolt to exist (besides cheasing your way to godhood with Chroma) because it would allow you to put explosive damage on a weapon that you might not have room for both heat and cold on. I might consider limiting this "bypass" effect to the weapons that deal self harm as explosion is part of their nature rather than just blast, it actually gives people a reason to use a weapon type that most players will typically avoid...)

Edited by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx
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Explosive force should do a lot more to shields and even armor to a degree. Tank warfare is a good example of using high explosive against armor since an explosive round will detonate outside the tank for the most part but the internal steel lining is shaken loose due to the concussive force from the blast resulting in spalling from the metal so metal bits are now flying around inside the tank, the ways to defeat armor are either pierce through it or dent it in with sheer impact. An explosion would do just that, assuming it's shaped toward the target. Enough explosive against body armor like the Grineer have would cause it to fracture after enough hits. Making blast relevant against shields and even armor to a degree would be nice. 

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If anything blast procs need to deal aoe damage in addition to the knockdown.

Not much, maybe 50% of the initial base hit, make it the direct damage version of Gas.

That would also be a good way to give single shot weapons a bit of AoE, though I'm aware that could be comically overpowered and would need testing first.

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the CC from Blast is just fine, Players are just apparently usually not capable of taking advantage of the situation. obviously if your Loadout doesn't benefit from what the CC does, then you don't want it. that's pretty simple. if you wanted to use it then your Loadout would be adjusted to benefit from what it does.
not to mention its use for Condition Overload.

and besides, there's so many Mods in this game now, that spamming Corrosive Status is far, far, far, from the only way to deal Damage. if that's the way you're relying on dealing with Armor, i recommend stopping, and taking a look at everything again because our Stats have changed in the past 5 years since that was the main strategy for everything, we have a lot of options now.

 

also very importantly, is that Blast already pairs with Corrosive and so i'd recommend leaving things as they are. just like how Fire Status being buffed was kinda dumb because Fire already pairs with Corrosive and Viral, and neither of those Damage Types needed any further assistance.

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Explosive force should do a lot more to shields and even armor to a degree.

literally every Damage Type in some way can be argued to be the most effective or least effective possible way to Damage something, though.

it's less about logic and more about making choices.

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If anything blast procs need to deal aoe damage in addition to the knockdown.
Not much, maybe 50% of the initial base hit, make it the direct damage version of Gas.

That would also be a good way to give single shot weapons a bit of AoE, though I'm aware that could be comically overpowered and would need testing first.

hm ok, that i could accept i think. if i think of something like an Ogris and a group of Enemies then in that specific Case Blast Status could more than double your Damage per Shot, but generally i don't see any way this is going to become nuts.
otherwise, Electric Status would be more strongly regarded, since it already works the same way. and while Elec Status can be pretty good sometimes for Damage, that's only if you fishball the Enemies and apply it to a bunch of Enemies all at once and only then does it become good.

on another hand that would mean this feature being added to Blast is far from unique, but that's not necessarily super awful.

Edited by taiiat
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2 hours ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Explosive force should do a lot more to shields and even armor to a degree. Tank warfare is a good example of using high explosive against armor since an explosive round will detonate outside the tank for the most part but the internal steel lining is shaken loose due to the concussive force from the blast resulting in spalling from the metal so metal bits are now flying around inside the tank, the ways to defeat armor are either pierce through it or dent it in with sheer impact. An explosion would do just that, assuming it's shaped toward the target. Enough explosive against body armor like the Grineer have would cause it to fracture after enough hits. Making blast relevant against shields and even armor to a degree would be nice. 

Thank you for approaching the subject reasonably. I might note though that with... honestly I assume Grineer use some kind of powered armor, but I digress from the point... a deformation of armor on a tank can cause mechanical failure or turrets to become jammed... but with heavy body armor, denting the armor means that a portion of the armor is now crushing the person using it, the inside of the armor probably now has jagged fracture points cutting into the wearer, they probably can't breath..I didn't consider these issues until just now, thanks for bringing that up. 

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Just now, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Thank you for approaching the subject reasonably. I might note though that with... honestly I assume Grineer use some kind of powered armor, but I digress from the point... a deformation of armor on a tank can cause mechanical failure or turrets to become jammed... but with heavy body armor, denting the armor means that a portion of the armor is now crushing the person using it, the inside of the armor probably now has jagged fracture points cutting into the wearer, they probably can't breath..I didn't consider these issues until just now, thanks for bringing that up. 

No problem, I always like discussing how different things like armor would work. Since the Grineer have to mass deploy troops and a lot of them are expendable clones I don't know if they would produce power armor, it's supposed to be some of the most expensive stuff for infantry in a sci fi universe. Warframes basically have power armor which is why they're so lethal. It wouldn't be out of the realm of reasoning that explosive weapons could concuss the enemy and stun or incapacitate 

 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

literally every Damage Type in some way can be argued to be the most effective or least effective possible way to Damage something, though.

it's less about logic and more about making choices.

 

I get that, but blast seems to get a worse deal than regular damage types like heat. As I was saying in my earlier post a blast would do substantial damage to armor, especially if the round embedded itself before detonating. Some armor types negate blast, and shields also seem to ignore it, while other games an explosion can shred shield and health very quickly. I like using heat on a lot of weapons since it's a good overall damage type, but it would be nice to see blast be more useful. 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

I get that, but blast seems to get a worse deal than regular damage types like heat. As I was saying in my earlier post a blast would do substantial damage to armor, especially if the round embedded itself before detonating. Some armor types negate blast, and shields also seem to ignore it, while other games an explosion can shred shield and health very quickly. I like using heat on a lot of weapons since it's a good overall damage type, but it would be nice to see blast be more useful. 

it already is useful, and making Damage Types that aren't diametrically opposed to Corrosive, Viral, or Radiation just seems like making all of the problems with Damage worse, not better.

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I think DE could start with (re)classifying more units as Grineer Machinery, which happens to be the type most vulnerable to Blast.  Unfortunately nothing important belongs to that class, including some that seem pretty obvious like Thumpers. 

Of course people would probably freak because they might have to consider building for a damage type they currently ignore.

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