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Less armor, more Damage


AuroraSonicBoom
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As mentioned in the devstream, the devs at DE apparently believe that ramping up damage enemies deal is necessary to compensate for the lowered survivability. I was pretty taken aback by that, as not only would I have expected them to decrease the damage while buffing enemy survivability, but also at the fact that it was talked about in the context of creating challenging content.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people here know how little skill it takes to mindlessly roll, jump and flail around to keep that DR up while trying to take out the mob. The proposed changes would only escalate this playstyle and decrease the time to kill it takes an enemy further, working directly against what is actually needed to create any hope of a skill based combat. More spam, less thinking. Less time for enemies to do anything that could be considered a counter, and less time for the tenno to waste not killing the mobs.

This is the kind of change that would make the combat even shallower than it is now, and I cant really tell if the devs plans this to alleviate themselves of the responsibility to create a slower(as in slow enough), more thoughtful combat experience or of they can't see this far ahead.

What do you think?

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But the decreased armor scaling, I.E. "Survivability" is welcome. As that would mean warframes need less focus on 'armor removing' abilities. One of the issues with Grendel is *specifically* because of enemy survivability scaling. His "Spit enemies at other enemies" power is worthless past...level 40 enemies.

I will admit, increasing their damage is...well some of them are already amazingly accurate shooters. It would point out some of the flaws in other frames, as not everyone does the mindless roll, jump, and flailing about to avoid getting hit and ect. If I'm playing a squishy frame, like say...Mag, and sure I can avoid damage for a while with movement, but eventually one stray shot would just drop me to almost death and I have to get a magnetize up and hide. So to me, buffing their damage when they can already wreck certain frames with just a couple shots at certain levels is...worrying.

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Corpus techs have no armor but the damage they deal is pretty insane (high levels ofc). Like 1 supra bolt will kill you kinda damage. Not sure the grineer need to do more damage. They're already hitscan. A hitscan Corpus tech would be devastating. You are just encouraging tank frames and narrowing the frames available to play.

Edited by Skaleek
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2 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

What do you think?

The *new* S curve armor scaling would really only kick it at higher levels, enemies would just turn onto bullet sponges slower, so higher levels before cheese strats become mandatory...sounded reasonable to me...

I'm more concerned about being 1 shot more easily from some enemy off screen since I don't enjoy playing the *immortal* frames and find jumping around and shooting more difficult on a controller...and I'm just not great at aiming to begin with. 🙂

 

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For those players who do meta build and can deal with the ehp of lv100+ Grineer easily yes it is going to make things easier for them. However that isn't the entire player base and I'd even suspect those types of players aren't even the majority.

So really it seems (to me at least) more to the effect of making things like CP and armor stripping effects less "mandatory" for higher level missions and less about making enemies more difficult. But I also suspect the damage increase is only mentioned as to not make it seem like they're strictly nerfing enemies for the sake of players who don't have issues with it currently.

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2 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Corpus techs have no armor but the damage they deal is pretty insane (high levels ofc). Like 1 supra bolt will kill you kinda damage. Not sure they need to do more damage. You are just encouraging tank frames and narrowing the frames available to play.

Might make CC more valuable after all those tons of survivability mods and arcanes made pretty much every frame tanky enough for average content.

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1 minute ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Well, if they go that route, hopefully the data will show that in fact they made it worse. 

I'm not sure why it's so hard to just fix armor scaling and leave the rest alone. 

Because it's not just armor. It's the damage system Itself that's the issue. If they make enemies squishier, then it's 'too easy' and then they have to buff damage to compensate.

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Yes - however, if they just make all enemy weapons projectile-based (without messing with OUR guns, which should go without saying - just because my Karak is hitscan does not automatically mean Grinner #26943 also has a histcan Karak) then I'm more okay with it. 

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Yeah I was not happy about that either. Enemies already oneshot you at level 100 anyway. Why are we looking to make that situation worse?

It almost seems like they don’t understand the point of rebalancing armor. It’s not to make enemies easier to kill. Very few enemies are actually bullet sponges in this game. We can already kill enemies easily enough. The point of reworking armor would be to make corrosion or viral/slash builds less mandatory when fighting high level Grineer.

You don’t need to make enemies more lethal to balance them being easier to kill. In fact I think that mentality is exactly what got us into the situation we are in now. Either the enemies die in one hit, or you do. DE needs to pull away from that play-style, not double down on it.

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Just now, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

Yeah I was not happy about that either. Enemies already oneshot you at level 100 anyway. Why are we looking to make that situation worse?

It almost seems like they don’t understand the point of rebalancing armor. It’s not to make enemies easier to kill. Very few enemies are actually bullet sponges in this game. We can already kill enemies easily enough. The point of reworking armor would be to make corrosion or viral/slash builds less mandatory when fighting high level Grineer.

You don’t need to make enemies more lethal to balance them being easier to kill. In fact I think that mentality is exactly what got us into the situation we are in now. Either the enemies die in one hit, or you do. DE needs to pull away from that play-style, not double down on it.

The reason why corrosive, or viral/slash is mandatory is because of armor. Which this proposed rework will only affect enemies at like...100+. You start hitting the 'use corrosive or viral/slash' at around mid sortie. Or depending on frame powers, around 50.

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5 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

The reason why corrosive, or viral/slash is mandatory is because of armor. Which this proposed rework will only affect enemies at like...100+. You start hitting the 'use corrosive or viral/slash' at around mid sortie. Or depending on frame powers, around 50.

So the upshot of this change is largely to increase lethality of enemies while changing survivability in a way most of us probably won't notice, most of the time. Hm. 

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As long as they tighten up player effective health variance (be it buffing the low end, nerfing the top end or a bit of both) so the average time to kill they're most likely going to be working with is somewhat accurate, that should be OK.

Of course if it isn't, god rest squishy Warframe's souls...

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4 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

So the upshot of this change is largely to increase lethality of enemies while changing survivability in a way most of us probably won't notice, most of the time. Hm. 

If you do sorties you'll notice it. As I said, with powers the armor becomes noticable around level 50....starting level for sortie content and sorties finish off at 100.

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41 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

What do you think?

That this game's skill curve has always been "shallow" in your words, and that DE have never, at any point, made any motion to change that. That they seem perfectly satisfied in a game that has no actual skill requirement. And that this Devstream just confirms that

Theoretically a bad thing, but also confirmation of business as usual

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