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What is the risk or reward of success and failure in Warframe?


(PSN)Scarletboy76292
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Does anyone else feel that Warframe puts you in these missions that don't seem to matter. The reason warframe feels so empty with so much to do is because the missions are so random with no weight to success or failure. With regular missions like capture, spy, defense, rescue, sabotage ect... There doesn't seem to be a reason or a worthy result to mission completion. Who is the person we are capturing? Why are we capturing them? What information do they have? In spy why are we hacking what information is important? What is the risk of failure? Who are we rescuing? Why are we protecting a cyropod who is in it? Why is this cryopod the only cryo pod on the planet? What operative is on the ship with you in survival and why cant you see them? Why arent you sucked out of the ship when you bust a window? These are less important as story but still expanding on these missions and what they mean for faliure and success is important to build depth to gameplay. When it comes to story missions and decisions what is the point of choosing? What does your dark or light alignment mean? How many bonds do you have to pay in fortuna to see a change in the environment around you? Once you get bonds to finish ranking up in fortuna as old mate why do you need more bonds? Who are you saving? What effect does your tenno/warframe have by doing anything? The people in Cetus look identical for the most part almost everyone looks like Konzu. Are these people clones? What threat do the grineer actually have towards the people of cetus? What do you guys think do you have a problem with the state of things or are you fine with it? 

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The reward depends mostly on the player.
Some are for completion, some exploration, some rewards..

The risk of feeling like a failure is usually enough to drive people to progress.. and were the game harder, some would be emboldened, others would quit.

Basic node missions are certainly pretty thin and bland, especially in the context of all the meatier quests and lore they've added over time. With newer missions, they've increased the risks, rewards, and purpose driven elements.. and the others look far worse standing next to them like that.

The original focus was to make the gameplay good while they built the story and universe around it. You may be pleased to know that they're both aware and interested in improving upon those elements. In the meantime, it's fair to say that, "game logic," is less critical to players than a good feel to the general experience, at least in enough cases to afford keeping the company running. Warframe isn't without good story, risk, reward.. and most of the nodes that are lacking there are more like a tutorial or training mission than a sortie.

Like you, I'm personally curious how many of the details you mention have been held back until they've made things like New War and Railjack.. along with the mission/node integration they've been discussing in dev streams and such. Having all this mystery, intrigue, and expectation has helped keep players interested while they develop. Maybe we don't get sucked out of the broken windows until we have an archwing mission built outside, and friends with a ship that can pick us up.. whatever the case, there's certainly room for improvement.

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There is no risk reward, because there is no risk. The reason why there is no risk is because it appears that the majority of players do not want it.

Closest I've seen to risk reward was the arbitrations in its initial stage. The more you risk it, the better the rewards were, but if you risk too much and die .. you lose everything.

But they changed that. Not only you can now be revived, but you also keep your rewards when losing the mission if you don't get revived.

Why did they change that? Well, because the players complained.

It's the same problem with "challenging content". Each time they try to do something, they get push back from players and nerf it.

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

When it comes to story missions and decisions what is the point of choosing? What does your dark or light alignment mean?

Originally they were planning on using this to change what happens in future story quests. However, as far as i know they have scrapped that idea (i don't know why) but they left the alignment in there but it doesn't do anything.

As for the rest, hopefully the railjack expansion along with squad link will answer the rest. i.e. the risk of failing a mission could affect the squad in space as now they can't progress. That type of thing.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

There is no risk reward, because there is no risk. The reason why there is no risk is because it appears that the majority of players do not want it.

You're pretty close here as far as I understand it.. with just a bit to consider.
Lich taking my Nano spores isn't a risk to me.. but a Lich taking a rare mod or resource from an MR8 is gonna ruin their day.
Most people look up guides of how to build perfectly, because they're supremely risk averse.. while others are willing to take a chance on a build they prefer.
Index has risks, events/sorties are time restricted, Railjack has resource costs.. but the largest investment is time and pride, which is always on the line.

A lot of players do say they want risk, but very very few play as though they do.. even the ones who say there is no real risk.

Pump a week's worth of forma into a Dera Vandal and try to meet the expectations of other players in a popular and rewarding mission.. they'll make sure you feel like you've lost.

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I love the feed back thanks guys. I understand the issue DE is facing with the split wants of the player base. If anything they should add a overall difficulty option that adds further consequences and rewards based on your choice. This can be used with teams who have only picked this option so that players who want it to be smooth sailing can play with other players who want the same things. That way when playing on a risky difficulty you are playing with players that will really play with you and try thier best.

Edited by (PS4)Scarletboy76292
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24 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Why arent you sucked out of the ship when you bust a window?

because being punished with an instant death for ONE stray bullet, from players and enemies most likely using shotguns, automatic weapons or explosives etc. is a bit much. plus you'd get no end of trolls decompressing rooms on purpose. it's already a nuisance as it is, having it kill you would be worse.

if it just forced you into Archwing, it wouldn't be so bad, but you mentioned wanting risk, so I figured death would be on the cards. they sort of added more risk/reward with Arbitrations, but then people complained and it changed. some want it easy, some want it hard, and DE has the unenviable task of trying to cater to both as best they can.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

If anything they should add a overall difficulty option that adds further consequences and rewards based on your choice.

They have plenty, we just avoid them. You ever feel like playing Vox Solaris level 3 off meta? No? Neither do people who say they want a challenge. They made the game hard, but the meta game make it easy.. and if they mess with the meta game to bring it back down to a challenge, well, we all know how well that goes over.

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Actually I was thinking more of being forced into archwing and finding a way back onto the ship but you have to fight off a few enemies outside to get there. Also when leveling your warframe and weapons on hyrdon is so easy to do, the affinity you loose from revival is pointless. At a certain mastery rank your revival limit is really high, even starting out too. There should be an option to increase difficulty it is pretty standard for a game. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Actually I was thinking more of being forced into archwing and finding a way back onto the ship but you have to fight off a few enemies outside to get there.

I think we've all had this idea at some point, but the game mode to do it just didn't exist. It just might later this or next year. I often consider that a lot of the best ideas we have here, it's almost certain DE has had them, but just can't do it yet for whatever reason. I mean, that's been their job for nearly a decade. Surely they've considered that.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

These are less important as story but still expanding on these missions and what they mean for faliure and success is important to build depth to gameplay.

That would mean that other parts of the game would change according to success/failure of a mission. Example of one is if you failed to capture a target, your next spy mission will have more complex hacking consoles because you didn't get the codes from the target that would allow you to bypass it. As of right now, we have a high success-rate with our missions that even if we failed a few times we would experience this change a few times. Another point is that no one likes failing as most of the time it results in rewards/loot lost and a waste of relative time.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

What does your dark or light alignment mean?

That was forgotten a while back. The issue I see with this is "should we lock the players in to it or allow them to change freely?". By lock, I mean like Walking Dead where you can't change the choices you made unless you replay from the start/previous save; and by change freely I mean like our current 6 Syndicates where nothing threatening happens when we change alliances.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

How many bonds do you have to pay in fortuna to see a change in the environment around you?

The idea of Fortuna is that they're in a perpetual state of debt - that's their story. The problem with us is that we're theoretically rich in resources that; if DE does implement a influential-mechanics it would have to chew a lot of resources to continue that story while providing enough to see changes with our actions. While we appear like gods and have everything to solve problems, story wise we're not; the idea is that we have tools to help but some problems are just too big for us to take head-on.

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

The people in Cetus look identical for the most part almost everyone looks like Konzu. Are these people clones? 

That's pretty much the same old stereotype with asians.

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

What do you guys think do you have a problem with the state of things or are you fine with it? 

Not really. While some parts of game could use more "depth of gameplay" feel. Lore wise, they're good and any additions are just welcoming but not necessary. Like I watched movies for what they are, entertainment, but nothing in my head ever notices plot-holes until someone mentions it or it's important in a series. Even then, it rarely fazes me.

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Well the option of difficulty I am talking about is not in choosing a mission that is harder and it is the same for everyone. I am talking about the people who want the challenge having the choice to play with others who feel the same way. When playing solo or with a team having a higher difficulty with consequences for failure and rewards for success if you want to. It wont affect those who dont want the difficulty. This would not just be for boss battles this would be for the game as a whole. Even if the majority of players dont want difficulties lots of players do and want the rewards for being able to complete it. 

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35 minutes ago, (XB1)aMichealMeyers said:

I'd say risk of failure for me is time wasted. I only have so much time during the week because work and irl, so rather not waste that time I can play getting zero-rewards. 

That is exactly why the option would be great. Everyone has different needs in a game. If they do increase difficulty it shouldn't be something forced against all players it should be an option. In most games you can play higher difficulties as an option that is more challenging and fun that rewards you in certain ways. In one of my favorite games dragons dogma on hard difficulty you get much higher gold drops for more stamina drain and higher damage done to you. You can hold items that make stronger monsters appear. You dont have to but it is an option. The warframe economy basically lets you farm for something rare and get plat and buy anything without even farming for it. A great option to have. Im not saying what the rewards or difficulty should be but I am saying it needs that option overall. 

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5 hours ago, (XB1)aMichealMeyers said:

I'd say risk of failure for me is time wasted. I only have so much time during the week because work and irl, so rather not waste that time I can play getting zero-rewards. 

Yeah, that's right. I'd say failure is being screwed by RNG and put on the hit-list of "no goodies for you" of our Lord and Savior RNGESUS. Otherwise the game doesn't have anything where you can really fail without trying to do so. 

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

In one of my favorite games dragons dogma on hard difficulty you get much higher gold drops for more stamina drain and higher damage done to you. You can hold items that make stronger monsters appear. You dont have to but it is an option.

That was something I loved in Dragon's Dogma.  Good to see a fellow DD:DA player here.  😄  

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56 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That was something I loved in Dragon's Dogma.  Good to see a fellow DD:DA player here.  😄  

That game has an ungodly amount of time spent in it for me. It is by far my favorite jrpg even though it is set in a western area. I have bought it 4 times. The first time was dragons dogma physical ps3 copy then it was dark arisen expansion ps3. Then it was the digital copy ps4 then I bought the physical copy because I lost internet and couldn't play for 3 months. The maker of this game was given two choices for a project to start first either Devil May Cry 5 or Dragons Dogma 2 he chose DMC5 but he said after that he is doing Dragons Dogma 2. So it is coming soon also netflix is coming out with an anime either this year or next. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Are you saying that you want nothing to change with the missions difficulty? 

i want the game to offer actual difficulty, and that will never happen so long as 90-95% of the Enemies in the game exist to be useless.

i would very much prefer if there were half as many simultaneous Enemies in the game, but the only Enemies in the game were Heavies/Specials. every Enemy would be much more interesting, and every individual Enemy Kill would also matter a lot more.
makes AFKFarming with AoE fields less beneficial and less encouraged, makes non AoE Weapons have some more value since the Enemies have some relevant EHP.... it kinda just solves like a dozen of the problems in the game all at once.

or in other words, delete the generic Enemies and only Spawn Enemies that have some sorts of special Abilities or Weapons that do things that stand out, Et Cetera.
instead of 90% Lancers Butchers and Scorpions, instead Spawn mostly.... actually let's make this a little clearer.
RyEOG6B.png 

Enemies that are double crossed, just delete them entirely. ones with a single cross, rethink them from the ground up to make them more unique.
the ones that are left, some of them could stand to be made more unique even - like Eviscerators have a unique Weapon, but they don't really do anything other than shoot it. they could use an Ability of some sort. there's stuff that already exists that could be used like uh, you could give Eviscerators that Roller Turret thing.

this doesn't mean that you couldn't have Enemies like the ones that are getting deleted, they just would need to be a lot more unique to be worth Spawning instead of more of the other Enemies. a generic Melee or generic Gun dude is just a waste of one of the Enemy Slots.

 

basically - delete the generic Enemies and only Spawn the cool Enemies. and from now on, only create more cool Enemies, don't bother spending Development Time on making generic Enemies.
that lets the game offer the potential for some actual Difficulty, without having to exclusively rely on Level Scaling Damage/EHP to make pretend Difficulty.

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i want the game to offer actual difficulty, and that will never happen so long as 90-95% of the Enemies in the game exist to be useless.

i would very much prefer if there were half as many simultaneous Enemies in the game, but the only Enemies in the game were Heavies/Specials. every Enemy would be much more interesting, and every individual Enemy Kill would also matter a lot more.
makes AFKFarming with AoE fields less beneficial and less encouraged, makes non AoE Weapons have some more value since the Enemies have some relevant EHP.... it kinda just solves like a dozen of the problems in the game all at once.

or in other words, delete the generic Enemies and only Spawn Enemies that have some sorts of special Abilities or Weapons that do things that stand out, Et Cetera.
instead of 90% Lancers Butchers and Scorpions, instead Spawn mostly.... actually let's make this a little clearer.
RyEOG6B.png 

Enemies that are double crossed, just delete them entirely. ones with a single cross, rethink them from the ground up to make them more unique.
the ones that are left, some of them could stand to be made more unique even - like Eviscerators have a unique Weapon, but they don't really do anything other than shoot it. they could use an Ability of some sort. there's stuff that already exists that could be used like uh, you could give Eviscerators that Roller Turret thing.

this doesn't mean that you couldn't have Enemies like the ones that are getting deleted, they just would need to be a lot more unique to be worth Spawning instead of more of the other Enemies. a generic Melee or generic Gun dude is just a waste of one of the Enemy Slots.

 

basically - delete the generic Enemies and only Spawn the cool Enemies. and from now on, only create more cool Enemies, don't bother spending Development Time on making generic Enemies.
that lets the game offer the potential for some actual Difficulty, without having to exclusively rely on Level Scaling Damage/EHP to make pretend Difficulty.

Thank you for the time you took explaining that. So do you mean it as a universal change to the game as a whole or do think it should be an option to select more advanced enemies to spawn? Also being rewarded in warframe for harder difficulty is complicated because the system for resources, rng, credits, and affinity are in the form of boosters which can be received sometimes in events and by the void trader. What would be the chamge for rewarding this spike in difficulty or should there be better rewards for players who challenge themselves? The only issue with this is that making certain items exclusive to players who want that would make casual players upset. DE does often cater to the casual crowd. How can this be fun for both parties? 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Thank you for the time you took explaining that. So do you mean it as a universal change to the game as a whole or do think it should be an option to select more advanced enemies to spawn?

What would be the chamge for rewarding this spike in difficulty or should there be better rewards for players who challenge themselves? The only issue with this is that making certain items exclusive to players who want that would make casual players upset.

just global, you can always scale the generic Stats of these Enemies down to make things easy.

Endless Void Tears already have some encouragement for playing more than the bare minimum, via those in Mission Boosters (that stack with normal ones). that's a good place to look as to how the game can reward Players going past the minimum bar.

 

remember that i also said to reduce the Enemy Density, which helps with the perceived Difficulty for 'less skilled' Players, as well as making AoE not quite as overly desired relative to non-AoE.

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25 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just global, you can always scale the generic Stats of these Enemies down to make things easy.

Endless Void Tears already have some encouragement for playing more than the bare minimum, via those in Mission Boosters (that stack with normal ones). that's a good place to look as to how the game can reward Players going past the minimum bar.

 

remember that i also said to reduce the Enemy Density, which helps with the perceived Difficulty for 'less skilled' Players, as well as making AoE not quite as overly desired relative to non-AoE.

I like that your idea about having special enemies spawning intead of fodder. The AI for me even in sedna is so bad that I can stand in front of a heavy gunner and they will shoot then shake around and stop for a while. Then they will shoot again... back farther away and then they shoot much less often. While using chroma without a self damage set up I could barely get his buff up all the way in Front of a gattling gun lol. I should be punished for standing around. Even the harder special enemies the AI is so bad. I can stay in void survival for 3 hours and still the enemies AI sucks you can herd them to their death 100% of the time they do not really have a counter measure for this.

The only problem I ever have is with Kuva floods lv 100 where I need to be my tenno to blast the guards to hit them. Cause my tenno will die immediately after I blast and cause void static.

Enemies need to fight better for sure. I know the grineer are deteriorating and arent super smart but even a hot head idot will shoot when threatened. The hardest enemy in the Sim is a loki silver grove specter at lv 100+ they can prevent almost all abilities they teleport you like a ragdoll. They can make copies of themselves that do high damage and they are invisible somewhere not even involved. Try fighting 10 in the Sim lol. 

 

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Enemies need to fight better for sure. I know the grineer are deteriorating and arent super smart but even a hot head idot will shoot when threatened. The hardest enemy in the Sim is a loki silver grove specter at lv 100+ they can prevent almost all abilities they teleport you like a ragdoll. They can make copies of themselves that do high damage and they are invisible somewhere not even involved. Try fighting 10 in the Sim lol. 

Enemies don't need to be Warframe Ability spamming Nullifiers with legs in order to be relevant, they just need to be different and not generic. :)

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