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Kattrendy

1 hit killing abilities and weapons

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Some enemies have abilities/weapons that simple bypass any shield, health armour mods you have and 1 hit kill you. I've noticed that once on a level 70 Grineer seeker with the kraken. And consistently when enemies spawn with the Miasma ability for example liches and silver grove saryn specter. The Saryn specter I had little problem with that since I could kill it faster. But when I wanted to keep a lich alive for him to spawn thralls for me to kill he kept one hit killing me with that ability that I had to kill him. Please edit this DE

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Welcome to warframe endgame.

If you want to deal with high level content, you will need to build yourself for survivability. Solely modding for clearing maps won't be enough. You may want to consider these (expensive) options :

  • Use Vazarin focus for easy, on demand healing.
  • Get yourself a maxxed arcane guardian. Maybe even two.
  • Add additional survivability mods, or level up those mods if they're not maxxed out already.
  • Use an Umbral build : Saryn should benefit nicely from it.

Warframe endgame is pretty much "one hit kill or be one hit killed". You can't expect to go anywhere without absolutely bonkers survivability. It has been an issue since, well, pretty much when Sorties became a thing since it made level 100 enemies a relevant thing to take into account.

Adressing that issue won't be simple : it would involve closing the effective hp gap between each warframes, and that game varies INSANELY from a frame to another. I'd argue all of this is due to the awful design of armor. That mechanic should be reworked IMO. Afterwards, the enemy damage scaling will need to be reviewed. Finally, DE will probably have to review DR based powers as well, because if enemies don't deal damage as absurd as before, 90% DR powers and such may not be needed.

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Warframe is essentially rocket tag, the trick is to figure out how to not get tagged, or drive up in a tank that doesn't care about being tagged.

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17 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Adressing that issue won't be simple : it would involve closing the effective hp gap between each warframes, and that game varies INSANELY from a frame to another. I'd argue all of this is due to the awful design of armor. That mechanic should be reworked IMO. Afterwards, the enemy damage scaling will need to be reviewed. Finally, DE will probably have to review DR based powers as well, because if enemies don't deal damage as absurd as before, 90% DR powers and such may not be needed.

I would argue the biggest issue with frame survivability is DR rather than armor. Even Valkyr P with close to 2000 armor gets melted in high level content (of course all those slash procs don’t help). But the closer DR gets to 100%, EHP increases exponentially. Assuming health is roughly equal, Mesa can have double the EHP of Gara, simply because of an extra 5% DR.

But you’re right about that last part. In my opinion even the tankiest frames should never go above 50% DR. Of course capping player health in such a way would demand a major reduction the the plethora of healing sources.

And isn’t it funny how every time we start talking about reworking the damage system, it always comes back to how deeply interwoven the problem is into the game?

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Definitely—fixing it requires basically a do-over, and trying to do so gradually means we’re be looking at a year of completely wonky Warframe as they find all the places the current damage assumptions are built into the game.

I fully support them taking a year and rebuilding the damage/armor/lethality/survivability design from the ground up with fully reworked math and damage rules and assumptions, but that’ll be a year of complete weirdness.

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Don’t use Saryn to kill lichee, she is a AOE DPS Frame that doesn’t effect the Lich. Take a tank if your plan is to farm him fir liches, then use your gun to kill him off.

When you farm him you put yourself at a risk of dying, definitely in a squishy frame.

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3 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

 I'd argue all of this is due to the awful design of armor. That mechanic should be reworked IMO. 

ehm, pal, are you sure you're "safe" saying that as a moderator? 

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On 2020-01-19 at 7:48 PM, LascarCapable said:

Welcome to warframe endgame.

If you want to deal with high level content, you will need to build yourself for survivability. Solely modding for clearing maps won't be enough. You may want to consider these (expensive) options :

  • Use Vazarin focus for easy, on demand healing.
  • Get yourself a maxxed arcane guardian. Maybe even two.
  • Add additional survivability mods, or level up those mods if they're not maxxed out already.
  • Use an Umbral build : Saryn should benefit nicely from it.

Warframe endgame is pretty much "one hit kill or be one hit killed". You can't expect to go anywhere without absolutely bonkers survivability. It has been an issue since, well, pretty much when Sorties became a thing since it made level 100 enemies a relevant thing to take into account.

Adressing that issue won't be simple : it would involve closing the effective hp gap between each warframes, and that game varies INSANELY from a frame to another. I'd argue all of this is due to the awful design of armor. That mechanic should be reworked IMO. Afterwards, the enemy damage scaling will need to be reviewed. Finally, DE will probably have to review DR based powers as well, because if enemies don't deal damage as absurd as before, 90% DR powers and such may not be needed.

Trust me, I'm not one to blame my weakness over the strength of  others.
I wouldn't have created this topic if this wasn't already the build I used : 
https://prntscr.com/qqscv8

I honestly can't put on any better survival mods not to mention I got killed also after gaining the pluses from Wisp's 1st.

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I blame the Tank frames, if DE didn't have to make things even stand a remote chance of killing them we wouldn't have absurd rocket tag issues with squishier frames.

Damage scaling is broken on both sides, enemy and player both scale up to astronomical levels that clearly aren't supported by the base stats of many Warframes.

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2 hours ago, Kattrendy said:

I honestly can't put on any better survival mods not to mention I got killed also after gaining the pluses from Wisp's 1st.

Are you talking about the lich's grab attack? I am 90% sure that ignore all DR and armor and only having your total shield + health being a bit greater than 1000 can even save you.

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4 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

Are you talking about the lich's grab attack? I am 90% sure that ignore all DR and armor and only having your total shield + health being a bit greater than 1000 can even save you.

You can survive that grab attack if you're Nezha, Rhino, or Revenant with nearly full stacks of your defensive ability up. It will often drop you to very low health, but those frames I know from experience can survive the throw and stomp. Barely. 

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Building for survival only gets you so far before it acts as though you used none at all.
Hitscan and enemy accuracy scaling make it so no amount of maneuverability will save you.
Cheese or be cheesed.

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Mmm... I see the problem. It's the same problem that I had with Wisp. You don't have any initial armor or rather damage reduction other then your base armor which gives roughly 30% damage reduction. You would be better off slotting in umbral fiber in place of quick thinking, while quick thinking does increase survivability, it essentially gives you a higher health pool. If my maths are correct, umbral fiber should double your damage resistance... "armor".

Both Arcane Guardian and Adaptation work on the same principle, you must be attacked before they take effect. Id argue that Arcane guardian is a lot better in that once it procs it gives a flat bonus and is at its max potential once proc'ed. Also, it gives resistance to most everything... 

Adaptation on the other hand has many flaws that people don't quite understand. For one, it requires a build up, so the first time your hit you take 100% of the damage, the second you take 90% of the damage, and so on. There is a caveat though, if the enemy hits you with an attack and that attack has multiple damage types then you will only build resistance to the highest damage type, not all of them. Thus, your not technically gaining at max 90% damage resistance to an "attack" that contains multiple damage types, only the single highest damage type.

In essence, neither Arcane Guardian or Adaptation will give you the ability to withstand being one shot. Unless, Arcane Guardian is active, and/or Adaptation has already built up the resistance to said attack.

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On 2020-01-19 at 7:22 PM, Kattrendy said:

But when I wanted to keep a lich alive for him to spawn thralls for me to kill he kept one hit killing me with that ability that I had to kill him.

You want Ivara with max Prowl for that.

On 2020-01-19 at 7:22 PM, Kattrendy said:

Please edit this DE

Yup. They talked about this in the last Devstream, but I don't think it's simple. Balance with 40+ frames and insane numbers of weapons is hard.

For now you need either invulnerability, or invisibility, and in either case recast duration can kill you so pick up Rolling Guard.

Cheese it basically.

 

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Yes I remember in the beginning phases of my Warframe career I onky wanted to use ability and weapons for killing and forgot to figure out how to survive. Now survival is first though the objective. This is where my weapons come into play and my abilities are just a support for killing more enemies. Hope this mindset helps 🙂

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I just did 2 missions in Mot in the Void and was getting one shot repeatedly. Two different groups of players. I have no idea what was causing it. It was 1,500 health to 0, with 300-700 armour, in one hit.

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15 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I just did 2 missions in Mot in the Void and was getting one shot repeatedly. Two different groups of players. I have no idea what was causing it. It was 1,500 health to 0, with 300-700 armour, in one hit.

Wouldn’t be surprised if it was grenades. Corrupted lancers toss em out of nowhere and they are nearly invisible, yet they do insane damage. That has been the source of many of my mystery deaths upon further review.

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On 2020-01-21 at 3:36 PM, LazyKnight said:

Are you talking about the lich's grab attack? I am 90% sure that ignore all DR and armor and only having your total shield + health being a bit greater than 1000 can even save you.

Nope, my Wisp survives that with 300 health left. I always drop my 1st when the lich appears tho. I killed the larveling with Saryn and therefore the lich spawned with the "Miasma" ability. The lich keeps spamming that and it 1 hit kills me.

On 2020-01-21 at 10:02 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yup. They talked about this in the last Devstream, but I don't think it's simple. Balance with 40+ frames and insane numbers of weapons is hard.

Mhm, that I understand. But maybe instead of balancing frames maybe they could turn down enemy OPness a couple notches.

On 2020-01-21 at 11:25 PM, Redfeather75 said:

I just did 2 missions in Mot in the Void and was getting one shot repeatedly. Two different groups of players. I have no idea what was causing it. It was 1,500 health to 0, with 300-700 armour, in one hit.

That's exactly my pickle ! Games are supposed to bless us with lots of fun because it's a way of enjoying our leisure time. So sheer survivability is just stressing. Like for my last lich I hit, go operator void mode, repeat.

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2 minutes ago, Kattrendy said:
On 2020-01-21 at 10:02 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yup. They talked about this in the last Devstream, but I don't think it's simple. Balance with 40+ frames and insane numbers of weapons is hard.

Mhm, that I understand. But maybe instead of balancing frames maybe they could turn down enemy OPness a couple notches

The problem there is that the game becomes trivial. If there's no challenge at all it's just griding easy content.

They're struggling with difficulty because of the amount of variety they have - it must be hard to make an enemy that's a challenge for Inaros/Rhino that doesn't one-shot most other frames.

I think their plan is all about enemy difficulty rather than nerfing frames.

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38 minutes ago, Kattrendy said:

 I killed the larveling with Saryn and therefore the lich spawned with the "Miasma" ability. The lich keeps spamming that and it 1 hit kills me.

Why am I not surprised that it was a toxin lich. Yes, it is overpowered compared to other elements and it can get seriously annoying to deal with one. It's not worth it to kill it with anything other than one of the meta methods, and I wouldn't mind if DE nerfed it.

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On 2020-01-21 at 9:17 AM, Kattrendy said:

honestly can't put on any better survival mods not to mention I got killed also after gaining the pluses from Wisp's 1st

Better off putting umbral fiber instead of vitality. Already getting hp from motes. Should raise your armor to 356 or something like that without arcane guardian. I'd also use 2 guardian if you have it. Although guardian and adaptation do nothing vs oneshots.

I've noticed that quick thinking also does not work sometimes against heavy hits. I think people believe it's because the theoretical damage is higher than that which quick thinking can absorb, but I don't think the formula is correct, that needs testing though.

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There was a bug, some time ago, that caused massive damage spikes for no reason. Stuff like one-shotting Chroma under full buffs with Hydro toxic ground. One of my friends swears the bug is back after recent Empyrean patches.

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