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Kuva Engrams


Vespilan
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Most of us will agree that having to add five forma to max out the mastery you get from a kuva weapon is ridicolous and feels like a huge moneygrab on DEs side. The cost of 65 forma total aside, you would also have to spend alot of time in missions leveling your weapons (which of course is faster with an affinity booster). It was sort of acceptable when it happened with the Paracesis because the Paracesis was a really special weapon, both in its function, lore and the way you obtain it and was an exception at the time. This system only made it stand out more. The special upsides of the Paracesis, the bonus to sentient damage and the reset of sentient resistences, is what made it a vital pick for sentient missions such as the ones in Railjack. 
Kuva weapons do not have any of these benefits. In fact, leveling them up to 40 benefits you not at all other than giving additional capacity. The weapons themselves are not even always a straight upgrade from their non-kuva variant. 
In this threat, I want to suggest Kuva Engrams. Kuva Engrams are like special features unique to a respective kuva weapon that level with the weapon itself, motivating players to actually level the weapon. Unlike the special features of the Paracesis, however, these features modify the weapons behavior and can be toggled on and off in the mod screen. Here are some examples:

Kuva Drakgoon:
- Pellets home in on targets but pellets decreased by 60% /50% /40% /30% /20%.
Kuva Karak:
- Crit Chance raised to 25% /27% /29% /31% /33% but firemode is changed to burst fire
Kuva Ogris: 
- Trigger is changed to full auto (6 RPS). Clip size increased by 50% /100% /150% /200% /250% but explosion radius is reduced to 2m /2.5m /3m /3.5m /4m and damage (before modding) reduced by 80% /70% /60% /50% /40%. 

I could go on and do this for every weapon, but I think you get the idea.

Edited by Vespilan
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2 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

Engrams.

can we call them literally ANYTHING but this? this is bringing back a lot of bad memories from Destiny 1 in it's first year... I still want to kill Master Rahool to this day, that cheating son of a bish....

5 forma can be a bit excessive when it's just for MR, but it does also depend on the weapon: Kuva Ayanga was an absolute joy for me to level to 40 because I love that thing, meanwhile doing the Kuva Karak can feel like a bit of a slog. it's not a bad idea though, as it would make the weapons more unique.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Jacobivan said:

Or make each rank above 30 increase lower of base sc or cc by 1% and reload speed by 5%. I kinda like your ideas, but I think they should by implemented by weapon specific mods (exilus please!)

What you are talking about are straight updgrades which is something that could go in an exilus slot yes. I would not go down this path because this can potentially get very crazy keeping mods and rivens in mind. For example, a 10% increase in critical chance might not seem alot at first but keep in mind that the 10% turns into a 25% increase with Point Strike and even more with a riven. 
The engrams are designed to change the way the weapons handle, not necessarily to buff them (as they all have downsides too). 

1 hour ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

can we call them literally ANYTHING but this?

It's a working title. Kuva runes? Kuva scars? Kuva glyphs? I dunno

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1 hour ago, Vespilan said:

a huge moneygrab on DEs side

Forma blueprints are THE most common drop from relics.

Plague Star flat-out hands you fully built Formas.

Nightwave always has at least one milestone reward which is a bundle of Formas.

Of all the things to complain about because "hurr durr this forces me to pay", Forma most definitely are not one of them.

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@TearsOfTomorrow
There are a total of 13 kuva weapons. Each kuva weapon requires you to invest 5 forma into it to even get all the mastery out of it you want. That is a total of 65 forma. You can not expect me to believe you have 65 forma just lying around, especially after the introduction of Aura Forma. That would mean a bit over two months of consecutive forma building. 
Plague star has not been around for a long while, it comes only like once a year. Yes, now is the time to stock up on Forma but plague star was not present when Kuva liches launched. The nightwave forma bundle is just three forma every nightwave season. Intermission II began October 21st. That is three months ago. Three forma per three months, yeah, no.
And let alone if you were a heretic to even CONSIDER using your forma on something but kuva weapons! 

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il y a 4 minutes, Vespilan a dit :

@TearsOfTomorrow
There are a total of 13 kuva weapons. Each kuva weapon requires you to invest 5 forma into it to even get all the mastery out of it you want. That is a total of 65 forma. You can not expect me to believe you have 65 forma just lying around, especially after the introduction of Aura Forma. That would mean a bit over two months of consecutive forma building. 
Plague star has not been around for a long while, it comes only like once a year. Yes, now is the time to stock up on Forma but plague star was not present when Kuva liches launched. The nightwave forma bundle is just three forma every nightwave season. Intermission II began October 21st. That is three months ago. Three forma per three months, yeah, no.
And let alone if you were a heretic to even CONSIDER using your forma on something but kuva weapons! 

Many people have just that many formas in stock, many have even more. And aura formas are laughably useless in most situations.

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10 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

That is a total of 65 forma

I've been playing the game for a little less than a year, or at least that's what my join date would have you believe, but the truth is that I've played much less than that, because I've been confined to bed due to serious illness, unable to play and in fact to do much of anything, for over 5 months. This means that my ACTUAL time spent playing this game has been very very limited... But even in such limited time I've accumulated WAY MORE than that many Formas. We're talking well over 100.

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49 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

I've been playing the game for a little less than a year, or at least that's what my join date would have you believe, but the truth is that I've played much less than that, because I've been confined to bed due to serious illness, unable to play and in fact to do much of anything, for over 5 months. This means that my ACTUAL time spent playing this game has been very very limited... But even in such limited time I've accumulated WAY MORE than that many Formas. We're talking well over 100.

That just means you log on and build a forma.  You've actually forma'd very little or built all the tenno lab weapons that each require a forma just to make.  Your statement proves nothing except you don't use forma.

 

Me for example, I play a lot and forma damn near everything.  I've got 2.6k hrs over 2 years and I'm constantly short of forma.  Build one almost every day, bought quite a few and farmed plague star to death.  I'm lucky if I've ever got more than 5-6 in stock.  Because I use the stuff, not just store it. 

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56 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

That just means you log on and build a forma.  You've actually forma'd very little or built all the tenno lab weapons that each require a forma just to make.  Your statement proves nothing except you don't use forma.

 

Me for example, I play a lot and forma damn near everything.  I've got 2.6k hrs over 2 years and I'm constantly short of forma.  Build one almost every day, bought quite a few and farmed plague star to death.  I'm lucky if I've ever got more than 5-6 in stock.  Because I use the stuff, not just store it. 

So you admit that procuring that many formas is possible. Then this means that the only issue here is what you decide to do with them: why should DE be held accountable, much less change its policies, for YOUR decisions?

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2 hours ago, Vespilan said:

There are a total of 13 kuva weapons. Each kuva weapon requires you to invest 5 forma into it to even get all the mastery out of it you want. That is a total of 65 forma. You can not expect me to believe you have 65 forma just lying around, especially after the introduction of Aura Forma. That would mean a bit over two months of consecutive forma building. 

And yet there are tons of players with way more forma than that.

I went into the lich system with around 150 forma because of how common it is, and I have multi formaed nearly every weapon in the game.

The forma is not a money grab.  We need more forma sinks honestly.  There simply isn't a way to get rid of all of them faster than you can accumulate them.

As to your idea:
We don't need a stupid amount of power creep like this.
The kuva weapons are already better than the base variant and we don't need more pointless power creep upon power creep.
And your "trade-offs" aren't really "trade-offs", nor do they really change how the weapon functions, and yet you decide to have the trade-off for the ogris be a complete nerf while others are a complete buff....who would choose to toggle a setting that is a 100% nerf for some of the weapons, and who wouldn't choose to toggle the option that is a 100% buff for other weapons?
I mean that's like saying "Well, damage mods are optional!"  especially in the case of the karak change.

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14 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

So you admit that procuring that many formas is possible. Then this means that the only issue here is what you decide to do with them: why should DE be held accountable, much less change its policies, for YOUR decisions?

Their point was that forma is made to be used and if you actually do play the game and use forma it is harder to stack up on it. 
But we are massively derailing here. 

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7 minutes ago, Vespilan said:

Their point was that forma is made to be used and if you actually do play the game and use forma it is harder to stack up on it. 
But we are massively derailing here. 

Right. It's made to be used... On the stuff you choose to use it on. If every single time you obtain a new weapon you put 3 or 4 formas on it, that's your decision. Another decision could be to save your forma and only put some on the weapons you REALLY want to get ready for high-end content.

It's not mandatory to forma each and every weapon you own. Which, by the way, includes Kuva weapons themselves: you talk about "needing" 65 formas for them... But first of all, owning all 13 of them is not mandatory, you could get one or two and be happy with them, and secondly even if you do get your hands on all of them, it's not like you must have all of them fully forma'd and ready for end game by tomorrow, you can keep them there and forma them at a later time, they won't go rotten, you know.

Thus, amassing all 13 weapons in a short period of time, and putting five forma on each straight away, is your personal decision, much lke putting formas on all those other weapons before (resulting in you having none to spare right now) was also your personal decision. You can't expect a global company to tailor its policies on your personal decisions.

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4 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And yet there are tons of players with way more forma than that.

Yes, veterans having more than more than enough of about every items is nothing new. We are looking at the normal, average player here.

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And your "trade-offs" aren't really "trade-offs", nor do they really change how the weapon functions, and yet you decide to have the trade-off for the ogris be a complete nerf while others are a complete buff....who would choose to toggle a setting that is a 100% nerf for some of the weapons, and who wouldn't choose to toggle the option that is a 100% buff for other weapons?

Imagine if none of my decision carried any actual weight in the games direction and I made a forum post to publically discuss the idea with people, talk about abalancing these upsides and their opinion. 

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57 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

So you admit that procuring that many formas is possible. Then this means that the only issue here is what you decide to do with them: why should DE be held accountable, much less change its policies, for YOUR decisions?

yes mate, of course, if you never actually use forma you can build and collect quite a stockpile - 365 in one year to be exact - not counting any nw rewards, gift of the lotus etc.

You seem to be getting a bit excited there old chap, calm down.  Forma are in fact designed to be used and there's tons of ways to use them.   Want a decent build on anything and it'll cost you 2-3 forma at least in most cases, often 5-6 - that's frames, weapons, sentinels, pets, moa's - and now 5 for EACH of the kuva weapons if you want to max them out - that's almost a weeks worth of building forma to put in one weapon which realistically only needs 3-4.   Too bad if you've anything else that needs forma at the same time.

I never even hinted that I wanted DE to change it's policies.  I was pointing out that if you never use forma you can easily stockpile it - you certainly seem to fall into that category - log on, build forma, exit.

As for it being my decision to use the forma I've built - yeah, absolutely bloody right, what the hell is the point in stockpiling them ?   I want good builds on my stuff, call me crazy.

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What really bothers me isn't the forma exactly.

It's how needlessly contradictory the mechanic is.

A weapon, which ends up having 20 capacity more than usual requires 5 forma...

By the time it's 40 it just ends up with 30+ unused capacity.

Unless DE add "vs sentient" slots later on, this would be a complete waste.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

what the hell is the point in stockpiling them ?

waiting for a weapon that actually interests you and that you can't get a viable build on it running with the base polarities it gives you when you initially rank it to 30. Because the thing is warframes benefit from having unused mod lost points it gives you more starting energy that's it really. Now there is no such benefit for weapons so my kuva dragoon that has 5 forma has unused points when in reality i only had to forma 1 time so i wasted 4 forma for the hek of it. you can stockpile forma for a over time burn so you dont get a new weapon or frame want to forma it and realise you have none built and have to wait 24 hours to build the yellow block of polarities.

Most time my stuff doesn't need forma but i have to give it 1 just so i can access the two tone energy colors for fashion so i've wasted forma more than i've legitimately used forma out of everything in my inventory i've only ever used 29 forma legitimately because most of my weapons don't need forma to be good to take down some arbitrarily high level enemy in the simulacrum 

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17 hours ago, seprent said:

Now there is no such benefit for weapons so my kuva dragoon that has 5 forma has unused points when in reality i only had to forma 1 time so i wasted 4 forma for the hek of it.

This entire discussion seems to running down to the point of how freely you use forma and with how many weapons you want to experiment given personal opinions and playstyles. For instance, I have set myself a rule to only use a weapon on as many frames as I can fit the look on. This would make three frames at most per weapon. I do this because
a) running with the same weapon on every mission gets pretty boring pretty fast. Even just a change of weapon, even if two weapons encourage a very similar playstyle (e.g. Tonkor and Lenz) adds some color to the repetitive grind
b) I enjoy consistant looks on my fashion frame
c) this encourages me to explore new weapons and find something that REALLY fits the frames playstyle and role

I can definetly see that, if you do not care about a), b) and c), you can of course bring the same weapon to every mission, have a less diverse arsenal but definetly save yourself the forma.
I see the point and take it, but this discussion was not initially about how you use your forma but about how to make kuva (and later other) weapons more interesting and more worth that forced forma investment. As serpent and @Ver1dian pointed out, barely any weapon needs a 5 forma build and the current system is contradictory. 

 

19 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

nor do they really change how the weapon functions

Take the Kuva Drakgoon for instance. 
How do you use it now? Since the riccochet of the pellets is completely unpredictable, I, for one, most of the time end up using it like a regular shotgun; Run to the enemy, shoot it in their face. A single-target weapon, maybe a pellet hits one fodder enemy once if you are lucky but it is most of the time not viable as a CC tool.
The suggested Kuva Engram would drastically change the playstyle the Drakgoon encourages. You could still do the single-target thing, yes, but you could also spray it down a room then. The pellets would look for enemies themselves, given the amount of pellets (especially with multishot) making it a great CC tool. Suddenly also punch-through will become relevant, a gas build for that added cc etc.

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