Enemy Overhaul Community Brainstorm

[VenomousValentine]

Enemies... Are bad. Most of them anyways. Enemies are the fundamental part of this game that provides a challenge between the developer and the end user. And for the majority of players this challenge is either not met, or met artificially. Most content is just doing the objective whilst slinging high powered weaponry into walls of meat and robotics that have very little to stand in your way except for mild inconveniences or gimmicks. I don't know about you guys, but I get more excited to see DE adding new enemies than new warframes or weapons.
Many people say the enemy AI is bad. I don't think so. At least I don't think that's the problem. I think the main issue is 99% of enemies core design is boring and uninspired and that leads to difficult content just being stat checks instead of skill checks.

So lets as a community look at this issue and see how we could solve it. Let's brainstorm ideas for new enemies or reworks for existing ones that provide a legitimate challenge that take mechanics to deal with and strategy to neutralize effectively.

[VenomousValentine]

This one is an idea from a friend I'm expanding on further.

Snipers: Grineer and Corpus both have them, and they do provide some threatening damage at higher levels. But they're relatively easy to dispatch or ignore depending on who you're playing. So how would we fix that?

Positioning. Give snipers the ability to rappel up to high walls, ceilings, corners, and places you wouldn't typically see an enemy so they don't get obliterated accidentally with one well placed explosive or a barrage of shotgun shells with massive punch through in the middle of the crowd. This change alone will add to the fun of the game because you'll have more places threatening enemies can hit you from. Watch your back.

"But does it matter where they are if I'm playing a tank like rhino or inaros and can just ignore the majority of their damage?" Glad you didn't ask. Lets give them true damage. Right through your iron skin. Right through your armor. Right through your frost wall. Sound unfair? Make them take extra time to wind up their shots, and make the laser they pinpoint on their target VERY obvious. After they have "Locked on" as indicated by the laser changing color, they will fire shortly after. Making dodging them relatively simple, but very punishing should you ignore the fact that you have a target on the back of your head.

[VenomousValentine]

Another massive issue is being able to stay in one place and obliterate entire platoons of grineer without moving an inch. For a game with such intense mobility, camping is a relatively big problem in endless missions.

So lets make a shielder enemy. 

"But we already have shield lancers and frost eximus"

Both easily dealt with.

Consider an enemy that places down a shield more or less the size of volts electric shield. Maybe a little bigger and more curved. This shield will be deployed by a very low damage tanky enemy so it has time to actually position to place said shield without getting annihilated.

This deployable shield will not be like the other flimsy paper barriers in the game. It will be unbreakable, and unable for projectiles to pass through under any circumstance.
Allies and enemies alike will be able to move through it, only enemies can shoot through it. 

You want to kill the enemies hunkering behind it? You better go through it or around it. No brute forcing your way in there.

 

Forgot to mention this should obviously have a duration to it. Maybe 30 seconds to a minute, or perhaps go down only when the enemy who placed it dies.

Edited January 22, 2020 by VenomousValentine

[Lightel03]

1 hour ago, VenomousValentine said:

This one is an idea from a friend I'm expanding on further.

Snipers: Grineer and Corpus both have them, and they do provide some threatening damage at higher levels. But they're relatively easy to dispatch or ignore depending on who you're playing. So how would we fix that?

Positioning. Give snipers the ability to rappel up to high walls, ceilings, corners, and places you wouldn't typically see an enemy so they don't get obliterated accidentally with one well placed explosive or a barrage of shotgun shells with massive punch through in the middle of the crowd. This change alone will add to the fun of the game because you'll have more places threatening enemies can hit you from. Watch your back.

"But does it matter where they are if I'm playing a tank like rhino or inaros and can just ignore the majority of their damage?" Glad you didn't ask. Lets give them true damage. Right through your iron skin. Right through your armor. Right through your frost wall. Sound unfair? Make them take extra time to wind up their shots, and make the laser they pinpoint on their target VERY obvious. After they have "Locked on" as indicated by the laser changing color, they will fire shortly after. Making dodging them relatively simple, but very punishing should you ignore the fact that you have a target on the back of your head.

- Making snipers grapple onto walls to get better angles is a very cool idea, though I`m picturing something more like sekiro`s grapple hook animation instead of rappeling up a wall. This would also help in terms of their survivability, since currently they just get mowed down with everything else.

- Making the snipers avoid armor would make them an actual threat you have to deal with, and the lock on would function would serve as the balance act to that OP damage, aswell as being a nice mechanic for the player to fully utilise the parkour system.

- I`m on board with this. A reworked enemy like this would be a welcome addition to introduce enemies that players actually have to think about how they kill them.

While I think the basic units should be fitted with at least basic recognition and reaction AI, making enemies like this would throw the problem on its head, since this sniper is fully made with a gameplay scenario in mind, so it`s AI behaviours are not important, it just needs to complete it`s task to work as an interesting enemy.

56 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

Another massive issue is being able to stay in one place and obliterate entire platoons of grineer without moving an inch. For a game with such intense mobility, camping is a relatively big problem in endless missions.

So lets make a shielder enemy. 

"But we already have shield lancers and frost eximus"

Both easily dealt with.

Consider an enemy that places down a shield more or less the size of volts electric shield. Maybe a little bigger and more curved. This shield will be deployed by a very low damage tanky enemy so it has time to actually position to place said shield without getting annihilated.

This deployable shield will not be like the other flimsy paper barriers in the game. It will be unbreakable, and unable for projectiles to pass through under any circumstance.
Allies and enemies alike will be able to move through it, only enemies can shoot through it. 

You want to kill the enemies hunkering behind it? You better go through it or around it. No brute forcing your way in there.

 

Forgot to mention this should obviously have a duration to it. Maybe 30 seconds to a minute, or perhaps go down only when the enemy who placed it dies.

- What about AoE abilities? Wouldn`t they counter this unit a little too easily? Or is this vulnerability an intended design for them? Because if we count out such abilities, this is actually a pretty great enemy.

- As for the duration of the shield, I feel it should move with the unit that placed it, just like Volt picking up his shields, but with a far slower movement speed, and have it`s timer be something like 20 seconds, with a 5 second recharge.

Imagine Reinhardt`s shield, but temporary and requiring a recharge. This would then factor into his AI: if he has a shield ready, he`ll deploy it as soon as he sees a Tenno, and slowly move towards him, and when the shield timer starts running on its last couple seconds, he retreats slowly to somewhere safe to recharge, then repeat until he is killed.

- Another thing I feel should be added, is that when this shield is deployed, make it so other units go gather behind it for protection.

[VenomousValentine]

14 minutes ago, Lightel03 said:

While I think the basic units should be fitted with at least basic recognition and reaction AI, making enemies like this would throw the problem on its head, since this sniper is fully made with a gameplay scenario in mind, so it`s AI behaviours are not important, it just needs to complete it`s task to work as an interesting enemy.

I agree that better AI would be nice, but be honest, this is an easier, and honestly preferable fix in the short term, and far more of a gradually implemented solution so it's not such a mounting task for DE

14 minutes ago, Lightel03 said:

- What about AoE abilities? Wouldn`t they counter this unit a little too easily? Or is this vulnerability an intended design for them? Because if we count out such abilities, this is actually a pretty great enemy.

Well I think that problem would be best solved in tandem with other enemies, such as an enemy that provides an aura of ability resistance (save for exalted weapons)
I was thinking that would be a good rework for comba and scrambus
That's another thing I think is super important for this game. Is enemies actually working together to a degree. Individually we are weak  like a single twig, but when bundled we form a... Well you know the quote.

I'll post more of my ideas on the matter in a bit.

 

14 minutes ago, Lightel03 said:

- As for the duration of the shield, I feel it should move with the unit that placed it, just like Volt picking up his shields, but with a far slower movement speed, and have it`s timer be something like 20 seconds, with a 5 second recharge.

Imagine Reinhardt`s shield, but temporary and requiring a recharge. This would then factor into his AI: if he has a shield ready, he`ll deploy it as soon as he sees a Tenno, and slowly move towards him, and when the shield timer starts running on its last couple seconds, he retreats slowly to somewhere safe to recharge, then repeat until he is killed.

- Another thing I feel should be added, is that when this shield is deployed, make it so other units go gather behind it for protection.

I definitely agree with units treating the shield as actual cover, that's of course the intention, but that should be relatively easy to code.

I feel like having the shield be big and stationary is
A: Far less clunky and awkward to code and
B: More threatening, and more like an actual proper firefight. 

But perhaps there could be a separate unit that's similar, but with a smaller shield.

Edited January 22, 2020 by VenomousValentine

[VenomousValentine]

Keep in mind, a lot of the things I'm going to suggest will SOUND broken, but ideally they would be very rare and grow increasingly more common as the games difficulty ramps up. Maybe some of them could have a level requirement, that they only spawn at level 50 or higher, or at a certain wave do they start spawning.

Now, I'm not saying to remove your usual fodder enemies because a good swarm of weak enemies is still a big threat, but to make them not easy fodder we need them to be buffed by other enemies that must be focused in the similar vein to ancient healers. I haven't totally flushed out complete enemies but here's a few concepts I feel could be used with some enemies.

Marker: An enemy that marks a tenno making them take increased damage from all sources until the marker unit is killed.

Elemental Aura Buffers: Various enemies, perhaps this is what we could do with eximus after their roles get filled better by new enemies. The idea is that when they're near enemies, those enemies do added elemental damage such as viral, radiation, corrosive, magnetic etc to the point they make a squad of enemies a massive threat. Easily killed, but god save you if you don't deal with them fast.

Ability Resist Buff: An enemy that provides a short buff, maybe 10 seconds to nearby enemies that makes them immune to abilities except for exilus weapons

Jammers: Enemies that cast a single target ability on a tenno that jams your gun and forces you to manually reload it before you can fire again.

Summoners: Now, you may hear this and think of things like hyeka masters but I was thinking more along the line of four crewman coming out with some machine parts and if you don't kill them before they set up, out comes a #*!%ing hyena.

[Lightel03]

4 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

I feel like having the shield be big and stationary is
A: Far less clunky and awkward to code and
B: More threatening, and more like an actual proper firefight. 

But perhaps there could be a separate unit that's similar, but with a smaller shield.

Yeah, I was thinking about how hard it would be to code that, though I do think it would be better off being mobile in terms of gameplay scenarios:

-Let`s say a shield is up, and there are some troops behind it, if the shield is stationary and the timer runs out, the units behind it are left vulnerable, and have to run towards other cover.

But, if it was mobile, the troops would be able to move with the shield from a safe space to another, and in between they would be able to let out damage to the Tenno.

4 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

Marker: An enemy that marks a tenno making them take increased damage from all sources until the marker unit is killed.

Elemental Aura Buffers: Various enemies, perhaps this is what we could do with eximus after their roles get filled better by new enemies. The idea is that when they're near enemies, those enemies do added elemental damage such as viral, radiation, corrosive, magnetic etc to the point they make a squad of enemies a massive threat. Easily killed, but god save you if you don't deal with them fast.

Jammers: Enemies that cast a single target ability on a tenno that jams your gun and forces you to manually reload it before you can fire again.

Summoners: Now, you may hear this and think of things like hyeka masters but I was thinking more along the line of four crewman coming out with some machine parts and if you don't kill them before they set up, out comes a #*!%ing hyena.

I just don`t see any interesting situations playing out with these units, it would all just come down to the same loop:

enter room > kill any markers, aura buffers, jammesr or summoners > everything else

With the sniper idea, you gotta find where she is, dodge her shots, then shoot her or parkour your way to melee her.

With the shield idea, you have to kill a huge squad with a damage cancelling shield, you can do that by going over or through the shield.

These other ones are just buffers that you should prioritize because they would significantly worsen your life if you keep them alive. They don`t have a gameplay scenario, just quirks.

4 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

Ability Resist Buff: An enemy that provides a short buff, maybe 10 seconds to nearby enemies that makes them immune to abilities except for exilus weapons

Isn`t a nullifier just a better version of that? Either way, it`s the same problem as the ones above.

 

Btw, I`m sorry for not coming up with any cool enemy designs, it seems my creativity has been flatlining recently. 

[Ice_Peck]

You are WAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

 

You can't take any steps without falling into the bottomless hole below the bridge you're walking without first getting over the jump required to get DE to listen.

[VenomousValentine]

13 hours ago, Lightel03 said:

Yeah, I was thinking about how hard it would be to code that, though I do think it would be better off being mobile in terms of gameplay scenarios:

-Let`s say a shield is up, and there are some troops behind it, if the shield is stationary and the timer runs out, the units behind it are left vulnerable, and have to run towards other cover.

But, if it was mobile, the troops would be able to move with the shield from a safe space to another, and in between they would be able to let out damage to the Tenno.

I just don`t see any interesting situations playing out with these units, it would all just come down to the same loop:

enter room > kill any markers, aura buffers, jammesr or summoners > everything else

With the sniper idea, you gotta find where she is, dodge her shots, then shoot her or parkour your way to melee her.

With the shield idea, you have to kill a huge squad with a damage cancelling shield, you can do that by going over or through the shield.

These other ones are just buffers that you should prioritize because they would significantly worsen your life if you keep them alive. They don`t have a gameplay scenario, just quirks.

Isn`t a nullifier just a better version of that? Either way, it`s the same problem as the ones above.

 

Btw, I`m sorry for not coming up with any cool enemy designs, it seems my creativity has been flatlining recently. 

You're right, a lot of those are kinda uninspired.

[VenomousValentine]

13 hours ago, Saberfrost said:

You are WAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

 

You can't take any steps without falling into the bottomless hole below the bridge you're walking without first getting over the jump required to get DE to listen.

it's clear DE already has a mild interest in doing this when you look at fortuna enemies.

[Lightel03]

18 hours ago, Saberfrost said:

You are WAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.

 

You can't take any steps without falling into the bottomless hole below the bridge you're walking without first getting over the jump required to get DE to listen.

What`s wong with planning ahead?

I`m aware that DE might not even see this post, but then again there`s always a chance, and so I find it a much better waste of my time to debate over what to do, instead of being heard. Since once they see the post, they will be seeing debated ideas and concepts, and hopefully they like some of them so much that they take inspiration from them.

Either way, this is a the feedback section, we`re giving feedback, aswell as fine tuning it, and if DE doesn`t see this post then hopefully they see another one that is just as good.

[Eaglebow10]

Hmmm...i have no idea enemy wise, what might be cool....but maybe one towards game mechanics.

In everydaylife, if a company brings out new tech that meets high demand it takes a certain amout of time for the market/world to get saturated. So from "nobody knows what that is" to "you have it every where/its common knowledge" some interesting things can happen.

You might go for months without experiencing the new tech. And then there might be a time where you are forced to deal with the new stuff severall times in minuits.

(I could now start to philosoph about ys and so on, but as its off topic, i leave it for now ...)

Now, i'd suggest that any new feature the factions are given, are going to be treated like i described above...And whats more, they dont apear as soon as the update has been dowloaded. More they have a chance to appear, and then clustered in one mission or sparesly in the next as the factions "test" their new equipment.

That way each player will have his own homework to keep his guard up, for the factions might test their new stuff just when ur guard is down because they didnt do so in the last 20 missions.