Warframe has no challenge, period.

[ShortCat]

10 hours ago, Midas said:

Another problem stated here is that it was stated difficulty value was valued by half the player base.

17k out of 27k is not Half, it is much more than half.

This is not how statistics or surveys work. You do not have to question every person to get representative results. In this case, the sample size is big enough to extrapolate the answers to reflect the whole community.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I wouldn't say that warframe is hard. No. What i would say is that that is a good thing.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Raids are coop focused expirienced , its not solo expirience and if raid can be soloed when its not even a raid wich defeats whole purpose of having raid in the first place.

If DE wants raids to be played by the. They have to include some solo-able elements (Maybe assisted by an AI of 7 to progress through the level ) or it will be just like before, a mode that is played a small minority of players and will likely get removed again because of huge upkeep cost.

Edited January 24, 2020 by DrivaMain

[bad4youLT]

9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

If DE wants raids to be played by the. They have to include some solo-able elements (Maybe assisted by an AI of 7 to progress through the level ) or it will be just like before, a mode that is played a small minority of players and will likely get removed again because of huge upkeep cost.

When its not even a raid , its just a mission you can run .

Whole purpose of raid is player interaction and cooperation , complite oposite of solo expirience and not for solo players .

[DrivaMain]

6 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

When its not even a raid , its just a mission you can run .

Whole purpose of raid is player interaction and cooperation , complite oposite of solo expirience and not for solo players .

Warframe is mostly played by casuals now and the old raids will not fit into that category and it will drive a lot of players away thus reducing potential revenue. I am not suprised if Raids 2.0 will be solo-able by adding an AI team or something. 

 

 

[bad4youLT]

37 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Warframe is mostly played by casuals now and the old raids will not fit into that category and it will drive a lot of players away thus reducing potential revenue. I am not suprised if Raids 2.0 will be solo-able by adding an AI team or something. 

 

 

How will it drive players away when its optional content ? no ones forcing you to run it .

Loot at destiny and destiny 2 or World of Warcraft , those games have hard to get into content and developers even talked about how only small player base engages into it and yet those who do absolutely love it .

[DrivaMain]

8 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

no ones forcing you to run it .

Say a new shiny powerful item is added in Raids and it's not tradable. So If I want that shiny item and I don't enjoy raids I feel "Forced" to play it if I want to get it. That only leads me to burnout and not enjoying the mode.

 

8 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Loot at destiny and destiny 2 or World of Warcraft , those games have hard to get into content and developers even talked about how only small player base engages into it and yet those who do absolutely love it .

Sure games like that will work because majority of them are hardcore gamers. But Warframe? It will probably fail and people will keep spitting or making fun on the gamemode like Conclave. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by DrivaMain

[bad4youLT]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Say a new shiny powerful item is added in Raids and it's not tradable. So If I want that shiny item and I don't enjoy raids I feel "Forced" to play it if I want to get it. That only leads me to burnout and not enjoying the mode.

 

Wich is something DE wount ever do , cosmetics I could see those but not items what affect gameplay .

3 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Sure games like that will work because majority of them are hardcore gamers. But Warframe? It will probably fail and people will keep spitting or making fun on the gamemode like Conclave. 

"because majority"

"majortity"

Dude I just said "small part of comunity engages it" this coming straight from developers mouths

[Benour]

Its hard when you are new to warframe (my starter frame was loki and man it was pretty challenging ngl). But as you progress and learn stuff and learn the meta and "cheese" there is barely anything challenging (endurance kinda is, since one error can get you killed instantly).

Also i agree this game need some new enemy types that require some kind of teamplay to kill them efficiently, or something with mechanics behind them (like noxes yeah i know they still easy to kill, but you get my point).

[DrivaMain]

2 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Dude I just said "small part of comunity engages it" this coming straight from developers mouths

Alright I may misinterpreted or didn’t catch that statement. But that still doesn’t change the fact that raids in Warframe won’t work in a community full of casuals and the devs that listens to them and executes their demands. Remember the huge amount of people request of nerfing Orb Vallis enemies and DE listened and drop the nerf hammer?

Challenges with CO-OP elements is fine, but don’t force it on Solo Players that makes them completely locked out of it. Solo Railjack is a good example of this.

[bad4youLT]

4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Alright I may misinterpreted or didn’t catch that statement. But that still doesn’t change the fact that raids in Warframe won’t work in a community full of casuals and the devs that listens to them and executes their demands. Remember the huge amount of people request of nerfing Orb Vallis enemies and DE listened and drop the nerf hammer?

Challenges with CO-OP elements is fine, but don’t force it on Solo Players that makes them completely locked out of it. Solo Railjack is a good example of this.

Nerf was because of enemys beeing aim-bot capable of shooting you from over 300 m distance and still hiting you

How will raids not work if they work when we had em ? the problem raids had was that they were high maitanence after each update brakeing that had to be fixed , meanwhile something conclave has no upkeep cost and reason why it still exist .

[Teridax68]

I think there are two key problems at hand: the first is that Warframe doesn't know how to implement challenge, and the second is that the Warframe community generally does not seem to know what challenge is, at least not in discussions relating to challenge and difficulty.

The fundamental problem with Warframe's difficulty is that, horrendous balance aside, we currently have a lot of tools at our disposal that let us easily ignore damage, kill enemies through walls, or disable most enemies we encounter simultaneously, and so as we kill them. This means we can essentially bypass any challenge given to us with the right tools, unless we're up against enemies special-cased to ignore or negate most of our tools (and even then, DE haven't really made enemies negate our personal steroids, which is why they're so common on meta frames). However, on top of that, enemies aren't designed in a way that really enables challenge: their aim is mostly RNG, so even if we can make them miss a little more by moving faster, we can still get hit that way, increasingly more enemies have undodgeable damage and crowd control, and the game sends enemies to us in hordes, regardless of faction, which limits what any one unit can do. Many of our tilesets are also rather old, and don't let us use parkour to its fullest potential in order to navigate stealthily or dodge adequately. In order to start implementing actual challenge, DE would therefore have to impose better controls on the number of enemies per faction (not every faction needs to be a horde), as well as revise the way enemies attack us, such that speed should win over facetanking. More diverse enemies would also help in this respect.

One of the problems with this, though, is that whenever discussion of this kind comes up, players will frequently focus on red herrings that don't actually contribute positively to difficulty or challenge: enemy scaling, for example, is a fundamentally ineffective way of making content challenging, because all it does is make enemies more boring and frustrating to fight in Warframe, without really upping the challenge itself due to the way enemies and our tools are currently designed. However, it's difficult to broach the topic, because criticizing it is seen as wanting to make the game even easier when it's already not very challenging, all while the actual criticism will frequently misuse the word "difficulty" when describing the frustration induced by the system. In general, asking for the game to fix any of the unpleasant interactions we have with enemies, e.g. Nullifiers, hitscan enemy aim from hundreds of meters away, one-shot damage, etc., is all too easily taken as an opportunity for some players on here to accuse the critic of wanting to eliminate challenge on the game, usually followed up by casting aspersions on the critic's skill (and usually itself accompanied by the player themselves claiming to seeing no issue because they're so good at the game). As such, there is a whole contingent of players on these forums absolutely desperate to come across as skilled in a game that fundamentally doesn't have all that much skill-testing, and who defend unpleasant mechanics in the game to the point where unpleasantness has become conflated with difficulty. If something's unpleasant, so goes the reasoning, that must mean it's difficult, and because we want difficulty, that thing is A Good Thing^TM and must be preserved.

So effectively: yes, Warframe has no real challenge, and so because the design of many enemies, frame abilities, and environments is fundamentally not conducive to challenge. DE has struggled with this problem for years, and has tried to address it with a whole bunch of systems and mechanics that I'd argue have simply worsened gameplay overall without actually injecting any challenge at all, namely ability nullification/immunity, excessive enemy accuracy and crowd control in more recent content, and a focus on difficulty through enemy stat scaling. To fix this mess, DE needs to not only remove all of these unpleasant mechanics and systems, but also come up with functional changes to make Warframe challenging, which is likely only going to happen through overhauls to enemy design, multiple combat systems, many/most of our abilities, and a whole lot of tilesets. This is obviously an immense task, one the devs cannot undertake in one go, so in the meantime they've been looking for quick fixes to not make new content completely trivial, which usually results in more unpleasant gameplay. This, in turn, leads to a whole lot of criticism from players, and inevitably a whole lot of squabbling as well as people stake their virtual honor upon whichever broken mechanic they've decided to call "difficulty".

[Benour]

40 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Nerf was because of enemys beeing aim-bot capable of shooting you from over 300 m distance and still hiting you

How will raids not work if they work when we had em ? the problem raids had was that they were high maitanence after each update brakeing that had to be fixed , meanwhile something conclave has no upkeep cost and reason why it still exist .

Raids were removed cause you could exploit host migration to an extent where you could get invited for JV and get the reward/arcane in 20 seconds.

LOR you could exploit with everybody leaving group before this "puzzle room" so only host left, he was shown one symbol, so he just stand on it and that was it, you could continue after one symbol and reinvite ppl back, literally saved half the time you needed for LOR runs (also this room was bane of existence for anyone who had no idea what exactly is going on). There was no maintenance BS that DE is giving you. It was just full of exploits and "features". Just FYI.

 

[bad4youLT]

1 hour ago, Benour said:

Raids were removed cause you could exploit host migration to an extent where you could get invited for JV and get the reward/arcane in 20 seconds.

LOR you could exploit with everybody leaving group before this "puzzle room" so only host left, he was shown one symbol, so he just stand on it and that was it, you could continue after one symbol and reinvite ppl back, literally saved half the time you needed for LOR runs (also this room was bane of existence for anyone who had no idea what exactly is going on). There was no maintenance BS that DE is giving you. It was just full of exploits and "features". Just FYI.

 

I said required maintanence not "on maintanence" and what you said is reason I was trying to explain why raids were shelved , upkeep was just way to much

 

[Steel_Rook]

I generally agree with the main thrust of your post. Please assume that if I haven't responded to parts of it, it's because I have no real disagreement there. However, I wanted to address this:

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

One of the problems with this, though, is that whenever discussion of this kind comes up, players will frequently focus on red herrings that don't actually contribute positively to difficulty or challenge: enemy scaling, for example, is a fundamentally ineffective way of making content challenging, because all it does is make enemies more boring and frustrating to fight in Warframe, without really upping the challenge itself due to the way enemies and our tools are currently designed.

Generally speaking, this is true. Relying on pure stats to add difficulty rarely succeeds. However, I'd argue that the state of Warframe right now is almost a direct result of shoddy player and enemy scaling. I've often criticised the game for working with numbers so high that most of its systems start breaking down. Player damage scaling is ABSURD right now. You have no fewer than four separate paths for damage buffs, all multiplicative with each other and I'm probably forgetting a few. Note just how many weapons are considered "viable" if they can stack damage on top of elemental damage on top of crits on top of headshots on top of headshot crits on top of orange and red versions thereof, and that's just from memory. You can boost a weapon by over 200 times its base damage, creating such a stupid-massive gulf between the offensive capacity of different players that it's literally impossible to balance for. JUST making all player-sided damage buffs additive with each other would be a major step towards bringing player performance closer to a shared "normal" state.

Then you have enemy health and armour scaling, which is exponential near as I can tell. As of The Old Blood and Railjack, we're routinely fighting level 80, 90, 100 enemies, and Grineer of that level have 95%+ damage resistance AND tens of thousands of health. Your base weapon damage needs to jump by a factor of 20 JUST to address Grineer armour, and THEN you have to account for their health. And all of this on top of enemies who - as you said - will snipe you with hitscan autorifles from across the room often enough that you're always taking damage OR one-shot you with homing missiles and perpetual Burn patches. Enemies are absurd and frankly unpleasant to fight as a direct response to our damage output, and DE seem to have started realising this if the latest Devstream is any indication.

And then you have the issue of Warframe abilities. I'm of the opinion that no matter what you do with our abilities, you CANNOT balance them by energy cost alone... Or energy cost at all. Not when we have Zenurik, Squad Energy Restores and plenty of other ways to make energy effectively infinite. As long as you can spam abilities infinitely, there's really very little to stop me from, say... Equipping Rage on Inaros and Dessicating all enemies I encounter, then killing them with True damage finishers ignoring their armour. I don't do that because it's a frankly dumb and boring way to play, but the mere fact that I COULD is the issue. As much as people don't like cooldowns, I've always been in favour of Overwatch-style cooldowns for our abilities in return for abolishing Energy altogether.

There's not a lot of room for "skill" and "challenge" in Warframe because we the audience have ready access to so much cheese that we can essentially bypass everything the game tries to throw at us by simply throwing back larger numbers at it. While I fully agree that larger, more systemic changes are needed if Warframe is ever to be "skill-based," simple stat scaling cannot be overlooked because that more than any other issue is what's brought us here.