Cloudwalker's fix was uncalled for.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

So apparently DE just wants to ruin Wukong now after finally making him great. Seriously first the Iron Staff nerf and now this. Monkey Boy can’t catch a break.

[Bloop]

12 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

They got map designs you MUST LOOK AT.

I'm not exactly sure what's the argument here. Is it: Having sprint enabled makes it so the speed is unbearable to maneuver properly. If so, then don't tap/press sprint  beforehand.

The whole point is that this was completely optional, nobody was forced to use it at a sped up state.

12 hours ago, peterc3 said:

You are overplaying your hand, here. There's literally nothing compelling about this argument.

Quoting my own post from reddit, in which I was replying to a clip of Pablo talking about the ability itself, second part of the post:

If the levels and game itself require repetition due to grind, because this is a looter in its core, then punishing people for wanting to be most efficient isn't a smart move.

People like playing and having fun, repetition can easily be a detrimental factor for this, especially if said repetition can grant weak rewards, or has a high chance of not rewarding what you want. You start seeking alternatives to alleviate this (Nova's wormhole, Wukong before this change, Titania with razorwing blitz, Volt or Gauss, etc.), some people also do it for the enjoyment of pushing themselves by speedrunning, which is a perfectly legitimate way to play.

This ability working in such a way had little impact in gameplay, as the worst case scenario for another player would mean the speedrunner both breezed through the map and killed every enemy/captured the target. At this point, said player will just solo the mission if they have to wait for others to get to extraction, and in terms of exterminate missions, they are more likely to pick a nuke like Saryn if they were to play public.

There's the entire argument, now: What's compelling about yours, or about the response I've just quoted? Seems to address me instead of the topic itself, so it's out of place in this.

[selig_fay]

I think Wukong is still effective in the air. And with the Aero Vantage mod, flight has become more responsive and you no longer fly to infinity so quickly. Yes, we lost speed, but as a combat flight it became more convenient. Personally, I'm for this being a positive change.

[Bloop]

4 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I think Wukong is still effective in the air. And with the Aero Vantage mod, flight has become more responsive and you no longer fly to infinity so quickly. Yes, we lost speed, but as a combat flight it became more convenient. Personally, I'm for this being a positive change.

Considering that the interaction was completely optional, so the regular pace is the same as the current therefore being equally convenient for combat, how was this a positive change when it took away an optional speed increase and actually changed nothing in the core ability itself? I'm not sure how there's something positive in this when it changed nothing for regular speed.

[selig_fay]

4 минуты назад, Bloop сказал:

Considering that the interaction was completely optional, so the regular pace is the same as the current therefore being equally convenient for combat, how was this a positive change when it took away an optional speed increase and actually changed nothing in the core ability itself? I'm not sure how there's something positive in this when it changed nothing for regular speed.

Hmm. I checked it again and it looks like Wukong still retained huge speed and inertia in the air build. In any case, I don't think speed loss is such a big problem. A lot of people just clung to objects with their hitboxes and I would prefer that DE solve this problem.

[Bloop]

2 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Hmm. I checked it again and it looks like Wukong still retained huge speed and inertia in the air build. In any case, I don't think speed loss is such a big problem. A lot of people just clung to objects with their hitboxes and I would prefer that DE solve this problem.

Maybe it's not a problem for your playstyle, but styles are like butts, we all have one.

I agree that more accurate hitboxes would be helpful.

[CopperBezel]

30 minutes ago, zhellon said:

In any case, I don't think speed loss is such a big problem.

Cloud Walker is the gooey center of rework Wukong's kit, and if it doesn't give me mobility I can't get as easily from void dashing, whether that's hopping across the room for a better position or to the next crowd of enemies, or rushing to the next objective in a Mobile Defense with no enemy interference, there's very little reason to use him. His healing is also per meter, so that's halved too here.

I don't really need a specialized frame for cheesing spies. If he's not fixed, he's getting binned. 

I know you enjoy contrarianism, but seriously, there's no point in even arguing this. If you liked Wukong for other things, fine. This was his one unique thing.

[selig_fay]

16 минут назад, CopperBezel сказал:

Cloud Walker is the gooey center of rework Wukong's kit, and if it doesn't give me mobility I can't get as easily from void dashing, whether that's hopping across the room for a better position or to the next crowd of enemies, or rushing to the next objective in a Mobile Defense with no enemy interference, there's very little reason to use him. His healing is also per meter, so that's halved too here.

I don't really need a specialized frame for cheesing spies. If he's not fixed, he's getting binned.

I know you enjoy contrarianism, but seriously, there's no point in even arguing this. If you liked Wukong for other things, fine. This was his one unique thing.

I don't think you are able to get the infinite flight effect as easily on another frame. I see people complaining, but the only complaint is that they just can't "im sooofast boy" anymore where archwing can be used. Now let's discuss the real game. In narrow corridors, you never abused this mechanics, because objects slowed you down anyway. 90% games are narrow corridors. So I conclude that speed is not a problem. Use Titania if you want, but it also won't give you a big boost to speed if you don't use razorwing blitz, which you just can't use in narrow corridors.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by zhellon

[DeMonkey]

13 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

So much overpowered stuff in this game that actually hurts other players' enjoyment, but apparently Wukong moving fast is what stood out to DE.

Forget the overpowered stuff for a second. 

There's many other far more important things that are wrong with Wukong, like his Iron Staff being made sub-par again just a few months after it was made good. The Clone forgetting that melee weapons have a range longer than it's toes and the fact that in order to make it use a weapon it's actually decent with, I have to either use a basic melee weapon myself or remove my melee entirely. And heaven forbid I should want to use Primal Fury and have a functional clone.

Edited January 24, 2020 by DeMonkey

[Nyllith]

On 2020-01-24 at 12:39 PM, zhellon said:

I don't think you are able to get the infinite flight effect as easily on another frame. I see people complaining, but the only complaint is that they just can't "im sooofast boy" anymore where archwing can be used. Now let's discuss the real game. In narrow corridors, you never abused this mechanics, because objects slowed you down anyway. 90% games are narrow corridors. So I conclude that speed is not a problem. Use Titania if you want, but it also won't give you a big boost to speed if you don't use razorwing blitz, which you just can't use in narrow corridors.

 

What are you trying to argue for? Wukong was the fastest frame, followed very closely by portal nova. Any other frame than those 2 were not even close speed wise, there is a reason racers banned those 2 specifically.
The reason people loved wukong's 2 is precisely because you could use it in narrow corridors once you got used to the speed, whereas Nova's 3 would most likely send you into a wall, even with shorter range.

There is absolutely no reason for the removal of options when it comes to speed for Wukong's cloud walker. Now it's all back to portal nova because she's the only option left for efficiency.

[selig_fay]

47 минут назад, Nyllith сказал:

There is absolutely no reason for the removal of options when it comes to speed for Wukong's cloud walker. This was not a fix, this was a nerf because DE got bothered that people skipped their boring ass grindy missions. That's all there is to it.

To me, this sounds like the problem is not with nerf, but with content that actually forces you to use these abilities. Personally, I don't worry about passing a mission maybe 30 seconds faster than a player who uses bulletjump. I'm more interested in the combat component.

[Drachnyn]

I said it in another thread and I'll say it here again: This is one of the times where DE should make something they consider a bug into a feature. Having the option to mod for speed aswell only increases build variety.

[Ham_Grenabe]

The irony of removing a toggle-sprint interaction from Wukong, a frame it helped, while leaving it on Titania, where it causes problems. 

[vFlitz]

I've played Wukong a lot since the rework, he pretty much became my go to frame, so I've been paying attention to all changes made to him pretty closely. At this point, it really feels like someone at DE has some kind of vendetta against him.

• The rework, while admittedly quite good as far as warframe reworks go, wasn't without some issues. However, despite a great deal of feedback being offered, no tweaks at all were made (though I can't say this isn't a common occurrence for reworks and new frames alike)
• His prime stat upgrades were some of the most insignificant ones in a long time. This wasn't even so bad until Atlas came in right after with substantial increases to pretty much every stat.
• Textures and materials on his deluxe skin were degraded with one of the mainline updates and remain in that state to this day. And before that, they tweaked how the skin looks around 3 times after it was already released, which is somewhat questionable as people paid for something and then it suddenly turned out to be different with no warning. And the state it's in now is just sad.
• Iron Staff was nerfed to the ground with Melee 3.0 changes. It has absolutely no advantages over a good normal melee now, only downsides.

And now this. Like really, how much mistreatment can one frame get? They might as well nerf the clone too for good measure, and then all of the benefits from his rework will be pretty much undone and he'll be worse than before it happened. Which is saying much, considering the state Wukong was in pre-rework. 

[shut]

DE, if you're going to "fix" Wukong's Cloudwalker, then at least have the decency to... you know... actually fix it in its entirety.

During the U25.2 rework, Cloudwalker was improved to have greater max speed and to not have an ultra-slow acceleration. However, these changes did NOT apply to jumping/crouching motions. Moving up/down in Cloudwalker hasn't been improved since literally 2015.

 

Not that I'm bitter or anything. No siree.

 

[SECURATYYY]

The cloudwalker nerf went too far. It's now slower than sprinting. I'm hoping they revert it back.

One of my favorite frames after his rework. I put an umbral forma on mine, then his staff was nuked, and now his cloudwalker was nuked. Feels bad man.

PLEASE revert it back. My wukong sprints faster than he cloudwalks now.

I happily used my umbral forma on him when his rework came out. Then his staff was ultra nerfed. Now his cloudwalker is nerfed. Feels bad man.

Really hoping they revert this. I can sprint faster than I can cloud walk. Feels absolutely awful.

They reworked him and made him absolutely amazing. Then his staff was nerfed, now his cloudwalker is nerfed. So sad to see.

(I used my umbral forma on him, so I'm ultra sad now.)

PLEASE revert this decision DE. Totally uncalled for, totally unneeded. You've effectively taken away the last thing that made him great. Its such as shame after his rework.

First his staff, now cloudwalker.

[peterc3]

16 hours ago, Arsonistic said:

This makes Wukong dead in the water for any kind of speedrunning

When has DE acknowledged speedrunning as anything more than a novelty?

[Starz]

7 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The irony of removing a toggle-sprint interaction from Wukong, a frame it helped, while leaving it on Titania, where it causes problems. 

Only reason it does not "work" with Titania is because they neglected to update her to the current Archwing controls. Still works as intended Sprint=Forwards (got to love whoever thought that was a good idea)

Edited January 24, 2020 by Pixzia

[Ham_Grenabe]

49 minutes ago, Pixzia said:

Only reason it does not "work" with Titania is because they neglected to update her to the current Archwing controls. Still works as intended Sprint=Forwards (got to love whoever thought that was a good idea)

Right, but that's the point - it's not properly implemented there and doesn't work as one might intuitively expect, and it hurts Titania (or at least I find her a monumental pain in the ass to use now), while it was working as one might intuitively expect with Wukong, and did no harm. 

[Aexea]

Posting this here so it gets attention. I ordered the bugs in a way in which I feel they should be prioritized for a fix with the 1st bug completely overshadowing the rest.

Hey guys, I have an update on new and known Wukong bugs. I'll be linking a video below and here are some timestamps for each bug (also in the description of the video). The first one I especially hope gets fixed as it is a common use for Wukong's Cloudwalker.

1. Cloudwalker vs. Cloudwalker with Sprint Active (Also comparing different sprint speeds): 0:00 --> When having sprint toggled on, or holding it right before cloud walker is activated, you are supposed to be able to move much faster in Cloudwalker. This is no longer true after update 27.0.12. Instead you remain the same speed regardless of whether you have sprint active or have a higher sprint value. I personally really like having Wukong's Cloudwalker be able to go very fast and I don't think it's particularly ridiculous as you have to mod for it like any other speed-based Warframe.
2. Cloudwalker into phantom-ledge grab teleport Bug: 1:45 --> Using Cloudwalker right before you are about to grab a ledge will make it so you will teleport back to the ledge once your ability ends and climb the ledge. The only way to get out of it is to initiate an attack (melee or primary fire). This has been here for a while now and is especially annoying because it isn't very obvious at all when it's happening, resulting in you getting taken back through a decent bit of the map if you were rushing for the end while disorientating you from the unexpectedness of it.
3. Cloudwalker momentum bounce bug when flinging yourself at an upwards angle upon exit from the ability: 2:32 --> You hold forward or backwards while exiting Cloudwalker in a way in which you fling yourself at an upwards angle arching back down into the ground. This will cause a weird momentum bounce bug where your character will bounce while going in the direction you initially touched the floor with while giving your very little to no control of where you want to go via the directional keys. This bug is actually possible with any Warframe due to a ledge bug shown towards the end of the video.
4. Rolling Cloudwalker Bug: 3:33 --> You cast roll right as you're in the cast animation for Cloudwalker (when Wukong is jumping into the air before disappearing into a cloud) and you will be stuck going in one direction (the direction of the roll) until your ability ends. There is no way to get out of this without waiting for the ability to end, as far as I know. It can be annoying as you may sometimes roll in an attempt to sprint right before Cloudwalker.
5. Wukong Primal Rage De/Activate Bug: 3:56 --> Wukong's primal rage activation/deactivation sound doesn't play at all at times when it should.
6. General Momentum Bounce Bug: 4:20 --> Jumping towards the end of a ledge-get-up animation will give you a minor version of the momentum bounce bug shown in Bug #3. This isn't a Wukong bug although it is similar in effect to one of the bugs he has.
7. Wukong Celestial Twin Kills only count when you are hosting. This isn't shown in the video but it is a thing.

[Starz]

50 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Right, but that's the point - it's not properly implemented there and doesn't work as one might intuitively expect, and it hurts Titania

Which is why they should update her controls instead of overlooking her. Problem solved

 

50 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

while it was working as one might intuitively expect with Wukong, and did no harm. 

Was not intending to work with sprint as it did not work with Hold to Sprint. If it was meant to work with sprint don't you think it would have worked with Hold to Sprint?

[CopperBezel]

It did though. That's been amply attested to. The patch notes are incorrect. That's not evidence that it was intended, but it has been working for everyone since his rework and wasn't a problem for anyone. How the devs missed it not only in the process of the rework but in the months since is rather baffling. And, you know, the original intention would still not be a rationale to break what demonstrably works in practice.

[DeMonkey]

44 minutes ago, Aerohardt said:

When having sprint toggled on, or holding it right before cloud walker is activated, you are supposed to be able to move much faster in Cloudwalker. This is no longer true after update 27.0.12.

Yes, that's the fix.

It was a bug, now it's as intended or something, apparently.

[Bloop]

The key here is thinking it of a state rather than an action itself. The patch notes are misleading as they claim it only worked with toggle, but the truth is that the ability worked in sprinting state. No matter how you had your controls, if you were sprinting and casted the ability in that state, you'd get the speed bonus.

[CopperBezel]

I don't even know what to think about the magnitude of the change at this point though. According to the wiki, CW is like four times the base walk speed and affected by sprint speed mods, while sprinting is itself only a 1.22x multiplier on the resulting speed. That means that with Amalgam Serration, Sprint Boost, and Rush, which I have on basically every frame and not even just Wukong, I'm already getting a much bigger bonus over base CW than sprinting is, and the speed is nearly 60 m/s and still way faster than sprinting. None of that tracks with my perception from play at all.