So... about Endgame...

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

29 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Then take Chroma and use Vex.  Chroma does fine in ESO, he's just not as simple there as Saryn because he has to actually bother to aim in the general direction of enemies instead of exploding them through walls.  The point is the "meta" is always the frame that kills things the fastest.  Unless you are "just messing around," I really can't think of a mission design where you'd be better off taking Nyx or Vauban instead of a frame either near-invincibility or the ability to near-instantly destroy every single enemy.  (And since Chroma pretty much chumps both Eidolons and the Orb Mothers, he pretty much has both as long as there aren't a hundred enemies surrounding him.)

I happen to really like Nyx, and Vauban, and Titania and all the rest.  I also play solo almost always, because I'm beyond tired of being told that "I suck and should kill myself" because I dare to not have a Speed Nova, or because I bothered to bring Nyx at all.

And yet the Plague Star meta is not all dps frames. The point isn't to rebalance all of Warframe so much as to shake things up. ESO failed at that for obvious reasons, so my suggestion is merely a way to give players something fun to do every time they play without making it have a defined meta.

I'm sure players will find a meta based on ease of use, but at least it won't be optimal for every scenario. The goal isn't to make it impossible to do, just to make it a different (and rewarding) experience every time.

EDIT: It doesn't hurt that this would turn Railjack from an island into a bridge.

Edited January 24, 2020 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[AbstractLemons]

If anything I think Kuva litches are the closest thing to end game like bosses we have currently (if they get up to rank 5 then their health is significantly harder to obliterate especially if you are playing solo) they feel like they could actually be endgame bosses but the system is in its infancy and I just know that they want to do something 'like' they've shown at tennocon when they begin implementing the liches into railjack.

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

9 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

and there I was thinking people had stopped proposing a rip-off of Destiny 2's Gambit mode...

these threads are just going around in circles, nobody can agree on what they want for "endgame", and unless that happens, DE won't know what it is that we want exactly. PvP can get deleted for all i care, DE don't update it anymore so it might as well get the can.

De rips things off literally all the time liches space Sim open worlds etc etc And even in his post he just said he's giving an opinion on what he'd like personally 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

9 hours ago, Yakhul said:

CAN kill us, and everyone throws a fit, even with all the fixes it got so far, people still do not like to be killed even once (you have 4 revives, 6 with arcanes, i guess people do forget about that tiny detail)

You forgot to mention how they kill us people don't like the fact we don't lose the fight. We win and death is inevitable. People are complaining cause the boss dosent kill us. It just Waits for us to beat them so we can play their guessing game 

[IamLoco]

I had big hopes that Empyrean would be our "Endgame", just by the insane grind that is neccessary to get that Railjack and max out everything.

But in its current state, it´s just a repetitive grind with zero to no variety.

I hope when stage 3 drops we will finally have something to do that involves needing a brain.

[Kontrollo]

10 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

What you want is Warframe 2.

This game is seven years old with new and fresh content...but no player reset. The Void was endgame, PoE was endgame, endless survival, defense and extraction were endgame, Fortuna was endgame, Arby and ESO were endgame, disruption was endgame and, now that Railjack is here, you have a whole new endgame.

I'll say this: for every complaint about lack of endgame, it becomes crystal clear that endgame, as defined by Youtubers and some players, is dumb as hell. However DE's version of endgame is absolutely awesome because they're providing what standard endgame does not: variety. 

This is the simple truth of it when it comes to PvE.

I still remember Scott's words from a dev stream long ago. He said instead of endgame they want to give us more game. I'd say he was right all along. Especially now that the power curve has gotten so completely silly, there just won't be any "endgame" that is satisfying for a broad portion of the playerbase.

I think empyrean and Liches were right on track on delivering on the actual "end game", too. It's just a shame both were released in such an unpolished state. The Liches don't go far enough yet imho, but the basic idea is sound -- having access to regular nodes on a much higher starting level.

The fundamental problem still remains, though: With the right setup, people can cheese through any "regular" opposition up to the level cap. With that, there's simply no way to design content that's both appropriate in difficulty and rewarding to play for broad part of this community.

 

What they need to do in 2020 is to once again put more focus on the new player experience, and clean up the mess they created in the past few months.

 

 

But for people who can't accept that, there's ultimately also Forumframe, at least. 😉

[SocialFox]

Allow me to enlighten everyone on the idea, that nobody, not even those that claim they do, actually know what they want from end-game.

And allow me to say why I make this claim. Once you get there, you'll want more. There's always, never enough content to please everyone, therefore end-game cannot exist by its very deffinition.

DE knows this, it is an exercise in futility to even attempt, even if someone implements every single idea suggested into the game, people will always want MORE!
MORE, MORE.

Really, DE isn't the problem in this case, it's the Gluttonous fools who can't take a break every once in a while and stop from burning up on the game.

I saw this with Railjack, when they mentioned it'll take months for people to max out their intrinsics, and some managed to do that in just two weeks.

Are you honestly going to sit there, and tell me you're mad that the content can be done in such a short time? And then complain that there's not enough content to go? while you yourself probably do not have even one of them maxed?

They have been trying, for so long, to add in stuff that prevent people from rushing through content, only to see complaints that it takes too long for them to do anything in this game, while others just get it done, then leave cause they're bored, now they're trying to add RNG stats to make you want to play more just to get that 100% max roll on whatever, you'll always see someone get it from the very first try, and then more complaints, honestly.

You've always been getting End-game, new missions, new quests, new weapons/frames/mods, that's End-game, you've done everything in the game, collected everything, achieved maximum possible mastery available to you, forma'd everything to 8 formas each, made a 1000 forma Vauban, and then some, You Will Still Complain That There's No End-Game.

I'm not a white knight, I'm also tired of the crap DE has released since September 2019, I've been enjoying the game since February 2019 (1268 hours of mission time according to my in-game stats, steam reports over 2k hours but I bet that counts time spent idle in orbiter/relay), right up to the point where I had almost every frame/weapon in the game aside from Syndicate weapons, and realized getting them was either plat, or grind. Then kuva lich released. It was a new game mode, something I could do while also getting syndicate weapons, it was interesting, just before railjack released I found myself in a similar situation, I had almost all kuva weapons, with 5 forma in each (still missing two of them), then railjack dropped, now I have new things to do, and so on, and so on. Untill I finally realized, it's all the same grind over and over.

I then made the choice to take a break from warframe, do you know, just how much better I felt playing something else for a while? even if would be the same monotonous grindfest (or worse), I tricked my brain into thinking "Well this is different" while getting myself "Unhooked" from what made me like warframe so much, I started to miss the mobility of moving through the levels taking sick shortcuts bulletjumping through openings between objects, sliding through places just cause I could. Missed being able to go Operator mode, and just dash dash dash dash, to get places faster. Missed some warframe abilities that made life so much easier in certain situations.

Then, a really old saying started to echo louder and louder in my mind, "Everything in moderation, no exceptions", and everything fell into place, I was burning myself out on the game.

Seriously, take a break, you're burning out, it's perfectly normal to do so, you're tired of the same thing over and over again, you want a change, start with yourself first, then when you're back from your break and you don't feel like jumping in the game anymore, it's very likely that the game isn't tickling that lizard brain in the back of your head as much as it used to.

There's one more thing that could make you want to justify your reasoning, so I beg you to at least consider the idea of Sunk Cost Fallacy (concorde effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Edited January 24, 2020 by SocialFox

[Vit0Corleone]

28 minutes ago, SocialFox said:

I saw this with Railjack, when they mentioned it'll take months for people to max out their intrinsics, and some managed to do that in just two weeks.

I know this is subjective, and as you said, each one has their own perception of what "end game" is supposed to be, but that isn't IMHO a very good example.

For me, the purpose of any kind of "end game" content is to create a challenge intended to test us by having us make full use of our experience, gear, and know-how. 

This is why raids and such are often given as examples. Destiny 2 raids and dungeons are fine examples of this. They aren't progressive systems or game modes, they are merely a stepping stone that asks of you .. let's see what you have learned and try to beat this.

( Sorry for using D2 as an example, I just don't know of many games that do this )

[vegetosayajin]

13 hours ago, Yakhul said:

DE introduces an enemy that CAN kill us

Even then it had no consequences, only the loudest part of the community got riled up.The people who had gear and didn't care if it was lv5 or lv5 million just killed it.


To the topic: endgame is a flawed concept like someone above said.

That said the only challenges I see that I consider endgame are mot(it has some kind of danger for you to die), the profit spoder solo( it has interesting mechanics even if you know them, you can test any gear and it's fun) and maybe ESO( if it's changed).

ESO imo can be much much better.
The rewards it gives now are mostly ok (radiant relics), but I think it can get better milestones except lato/braton vandal and some funky mods. 
The loop of random fractions and tilesets is great too.Enemies have a good scaling.
The only things that bugs me is the kill timer.Yes I can go with saryn/volt/equinox and go to zone 8+ without breaking a sweat, but I want to go with other frames and still keep efficiency.I want to be able to test how frames will perform at randomized scenarios, but the way efficiency drops is just too much.
Even with saryn I was able to get only to zone 12 solo and then the efficiency dropped fast no matter how much I killed.

[Vlada91]

Here some amazing rewords about endgame that we can have and that is not hurting DE for example: imagine playing special big missions with 8 players and ib the end of that missions we can have some interesting boss fight maybe something about dax soldiers times back in old war,then as reward we can have 3 random warframe parts and some random blueprints for the weapon. Plus in all that they can add some cool sigils,cosmetics and captures and some rare mods that we are getting from void trader but now we can here also... So its a point to get more then just 1 rare drop and it can be back then when we have void keys and farming prime parts but instead we are farming normal parts that are not prime as bonus we are getting some other cool rewards... So that grinding and farming don't look is 2 much work,because we are getting much more and is filling more rewarding... in the end rare drop for this can bee something like cool attachment or something cool that can everyone can see how cool and badass you are... for example if you are the 1 who kill Dax boss you can get his helmet circle made of gold that is going around the helmet that you can put on any of your warframes....or something like that.

[SocialFox]

47 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I know this is subjective, and as you said, each one has their own perception of what "end game" is supposed to be, but that isn't IMHO a very good example.

For me, the purpose of any kind of "end game" content is to create a challenge intended to test us by having us make full use of our experience, gear, and know-how. 

This is why raids and such are often given as examples. Destiny 2 raids and dungeons are fine examples of this. They aren't progressive systems or game modes, they are merely a stepping stone that asks of you .. let's see what you have learned and try to beat this.

( Sorry for using D2 as an example, I just don't know of many games that do this )

Let's face it, you don't want end-game at all, you want "More Content". new things to kill and be killed by till someone figures out the new meta, and the cycle continues.

Raids were a buggy mess according to some of the people who I could talk to about them, I haven't experienced them, but among them were also those that actually enjoyed them, even as a buggy mess.

DE removed them, because they were a buggy mess and not a whole lot of the community actually enjoyed them, unless your version of "End game" caters to the vast majority (which btw, it's too busy playing the game, they're not on the forum, DE knows what the vast majority wants, becayse they have all the data that supports their decision making), it's not going to happen, /end.

Edited January 24, 2020 by SocialFox

[Mr.Fluffins]

Considering the fact that a ton of people were saying on the forums how "impossible" or "impossible without top gear" it is to solo Railjack missions, while I casually completed all nodes solo without any plat spending (with 2 fails, one due to a bug), I can only deduce that this community doesn't want challenging. Like at all.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

endgame is palying another game and waiting for updates. has been for 7 years.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Considering the fact that a ton of people were saying on the forums how "impossible" or "impossible without top gear" it is to solo Railjack missions, while I casually completed all nodes solo without any plat spending (with 2 fails, one due to a bug), I can only deduce that this community doesn't want challenging. Like at all.

So since it is impossible to repair gear on your Railjack without excessive grinding this means you parked it somewhere and did all the missions using archwing. Hardly what I would call solo Railjack, maybe solo Archwing and definitely not what DE intended since they keep nerfing Arch Guns. If you claim to have mk3 gear then you used rush repair drones, which isn't really playing Railjack either. So basically you finished Railjack without having to play Railjack.

I await your reply about how you grinded 50k+ titanium, found all zetki avionics, void hole, and researched all clan tech by yourself. Please don't disappoint.

[Mr.Fluffins]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

So since it is impossible to repair gear on your Railjack without excessive grinding this means you parked it somewhere and did all the missions using archwing. Hardly what I would call solo Railjack, maybe solo Archwing and definitely not what DE intended since they keep nerfing Arch Guns. If you claim to have mk3 gear then you used rush repair drones, which isn't really playing Railjack either. So basically you finished Railjack without having to play Railjack.

I await your reply about how you grinded 50k+ titanium, found all zetki avionics, void hole, and researched all clan tech by yourself. Please don't disappoint.

I did some of the early missions by hijacking enemy crewships untill I got at least something (like Sigma Mk1 gun and basic lavan health and armor avionics), then after that I mostly used my Railjack and upgraded naturally, sometimes I would use hijacked crew ships as shields to draw some of the enemy agro from my ship. Right now it's even easier since you can grind earth and jump straight to Sigma MK3 weapons that make it a walk in the park for earth and saturn (wasn't researched in our dojo at that moment), since it only requires basic resources. Getting artillery helped a lot with Saturn.

Repairing any gear below MK3 is a complete waste of resources. In fact, I finished all Veil missions and the anomaly with basic (not even lavan) hyperstrike, vidar health and armor mods, no predator or section density, no abilities except particle ram, Sigma MK3 weapons and reactor, MkIII Galvarc, Zetki 1 engine (was pointless to craft but whatever), and basic shields... And I did Veil without farming it with archwing, since my Amesha is like lvl 10, and all my leveled archguns are good for profit taker but terrible for Railjack.

So yeah, it is not that hard, and doesn't require farming it with Archwing. You have a bit of headcannon here mate, don't know who planted these ideas into you. I mean, MKIII Cryophon (which is still good) costs like what, 6k titanium? Not that much to be honest, and you can get it even on earth nodes in large quantities, in fact in the beginning other resources are more problematic. Clan research (at least for ghost) is super cheap, it's a non-issue.

[Flavor-Savior]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

So since it is impossible to repair gear on your Railjack without excessive grinding this means you parked it somewhere and did all the missions using archwing. Hardly what I would call solo Railjack, maybe solo Archwing and definitely not what DE intended since they keep nerfing Arch Guns. If you claim to have mk3 gear then you used rush repair drones, which isn't really playing Railjack either. So basically you finished Railjack without having to play Railjack.

I await your reply about how you grinded 50k+ titanium, found all zetki avionics, void hole, and researched all clan tech by yourself. Please don't disappoint.

It's not impossible, I've also done it. It did take substantial grinding and scraping every mission node for asteroids and titanium, yes. I found the core gameplay loop engaging enough that I didn't really mind the grind, I had fun blowing up fighters and boarding ships. Didn't need to park my Railjack either, I would pilot it until I needed to board a crewship or an installation, at which point I would get that done and come back with time to spare to repair any critical hull fractures. I lucked out pretty early with a good Bulkhead avionic though, so my hull HP is pretty high and my experience may not be reflective of everyone else.

That said, it is perfectly possible to solo Empyrean content all the way to the end of Veil Proxima with a little bit of patience, no rush drones necessary.

[(PSN)thegarada]

I will settle for more level 80-100 level content. It is not challenging, but at least I could theoretically die if I drop the controller for 20 seconds. Right now, there is only the Kuva Flood, Arbitration (even that is not high enough) and some nightmare missions could be difficult enough. If it is not interesting arbitration or flood, that is an hour with zero playable content (and another reason to stop this silly 1 hour rotational stuff, at lease on arbitrations).

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

36 minutes ago, Flavor-Savior said:

It's not impossible, I've also done it. It did take substantial grinding and scraping every mission node for asteroids and titanium, yes. I found the core gameplay loop engaging enough that I didn't really mind the grind, I had fun blowing up fighters and boarding ships. Didn't need to park my Railjack either, I would pilot it until I needed to board a crewship or an installation, at which point I would get that done and come back with time to spare to repair any critical hull fractures. I lucked out pretty early with a good Bulkhead avionic though, so my hull HP is pretty high and my experience may not be reflective of everyone else.

That said, it is perfectly possible to solo Empyrean content all the way to the end of Veil Proxima with a little bit of patience, no rush drones necessary.

Don't forget you have actual hotfixes on PC. Us console plebs are still getting half the resource rewards, so double your grind.

Edited January 24, 2020 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Toppien]

this whole search for end game is what killed most of MMOs, so stop with this foolish thinking that we need end game, cuz online RPG's are about enjoying a journey not being on top of a mountain

if you want the later go play competitive games, there's your end game

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I did some of the early missions by hijacking enemy crewships untill I got at least something (like Sigma Mk1 gun and basic lavan health and armor avionics), then after that I mostly used my Railjack and upgraded naturally, sometimes I would use hijacked crew ships as shields to draw some of the enemy agro from my ship. Right now it's even easier since you can grind earth and jump straight to Sigma MK3 weapons that make it a walk in the park for earth and saturn (wasn't researched in our dojo at that moment), since it only requires basic resources. Getting artillery helped a lot with Saturn.

Repairing any gear below MK3 is a complete waste of resources. In fact, I finished all Veil missions and the anomaly with basic (not even lavan) hyperstrike, vidar health and armor mods, no predator or section density, no abilities except particle ram, Sigma MK3 weapons and reactor, MkIII Galvarc, Zetki 1 engine (was pointless to craft but whatever), and basic shields... And I did Veil without farming it with archwing, since my Amesha is like lvl 10, and all my leveled archguns are good for profit taker but terrible for Railjack.

So yeah, it is not that hard, and doesn't require farming it with Archwing. You have a bit of headcannon here mate, don't know who planted these ideas into you. I mean, MKIII Cryophon (which is still good) costs like what, 6k titanium? Not that much to be honest, and you can get it even on earth nodes in large quantities, in fact in the beginning other resources are more problematic. Clan research (at least for ghost) is super cheap, it's a non-issue.

My bad, you play on PC so it's a very different experience for you. Imagine doubling your grind and taking away all QoL changes. That's what the console grind is like, no headcannon here, just blatant neglect by DE. Good to know that your version is actually playable.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Endgame has always been playing other games that are available, if you're deadset on playing just one game from now until the end of time that's your fault.  Anyone who looks at the history of warframe as a game can see what model the game has been following since it entered closed beta with the founders.  Devs work on something new, put it out, rinse, repeat.  That's all this game has ever done and it isn't going to change.  Players can't even define endgame, they think of endgame as some mythical thing that will be put into the game and the result will be absolute perfection on every scale, but that just won't happen.  

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

This is the simple truth of it when it comes to PvE.

I still remember Scott's words from a dev stream long ago. He said instead of endgame they want to give us more game. I'd say he was right all along. Especially now that the power curve has gotten so completely silly, there just won't be any "endgame" that is satisfying for a broad portion of the playerbase.

I think empyrean and Liches were right on track on delivering on the actual "end game", too. It's just a shame both were released in such an unpolished state. The Liches don't go far enough yet imho, but the basic idea is sound -- having access to regular nodes on a much higher starting level.

The fundamental problem still remains, though: With the right setup, people can cheese through any "regular" opposition up to the level cap. With that, there's simply no way to design content that's both appropriate in difficulty and rewarding to play for broad part of this community.

 

What they need to do in 2020 is to once again put more focus on the new player experience, and clean up the mess they created in the past few months.

 

 

But for people who can't accept that, there's ultimately also Forumframe, at least. 😉

This is why I like the direction of Warframe. The winning formula is seven years old: more game, more ways of enjoying the solid gameplay, more ways to explore the lore and more risk taking. They just need to dial it all in as a smooth and directional experience from the new players to now, as you stated. Heck, I'd LOVE to recreate an account to experience a linear start to Warframe, filled with tutorials, cut scenes, dialogue and progression gates!! 

On another note, the damage reduction system in Railjack for the elite Grineer is a nice possible solution to enhanced difficulty...but I noticed Youtubers quickly bypassing those enemies during their play which tells me they aren't as interested in harder enemies as they claimed. Therefore, Scott was correct: more game. 

[MysticDragonMage]

On 2020-01-23 at 5:25 PM, (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z said:

I honestly just want to kill piles of meat.  I'm MR28 and I've pushed the grind as far as I can.

Every semi-end game activity I find wretchedly unfun.  Original raids were a snoozefest.  Eidolons are cool the first handful of times, then become a slog.  The Orbs are some of the worst content in all of WF in my opinion.  Liches aren't fun.  Railjack Veil missions aren't fun.

I'm done with hoping for end game because end game doesn't tend to translate well to fun and sustainable content.  I look at other games like Destiny, Elder Scrolls Online and Division etc. and it holds true there too... Raids are cool 2-3 times, then becomes boring slogs... end game content in games sucks.  It's nothing but a gatekeeping fest in most cases, the content is bland, and the rewards are almost always bland so that people who aren't end game players don't feel bad or left out, rendering the reward aspect pointless.

End Game as a concept in gaming is just dumb imo.  The journey is the game, when the journey ends, the journey ends, simple.   I remember back in the day games like Final Fantasy, your end game, if you were lucky, was a single superboss you fought one time then moved on with your life.  The idea people have of end game content now is some infinitely replayable super difficulty loop of gameplay, and it just doesn't appeal to me anymore.  I used to like the idea, but the more I've seen it implemented in games, the more I've realized how pointless and shallow it always ends up being. 

 

yes. please. thank you.

present harder enemies to fight every content update and allow our power to progress beyond that difficulty level till the next update. give us a method so that we can work toward scaling with enemy difficulty so that we are not massively OP in lower levels. endgame does not have to be a repetitive high-difficulty mode with complicated enemies to defeat just to remind you of how weak you are and how you cant progress any further to do anything about it.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

My bad, you play on PC so it's a very different experience for you. Imagine doubling your grind and taking away all QoL changes. That's what the console grind is like, no headcannon here, just blatant neglect by DE. Good to know that your version is actually playable.

That's a lie dude. I'm a console player and enjoy every bit of Railjack. The bugs are nowhere near the drama you're creating. Not even remotely close. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

That's a lie dude. I'm a console player and enjoy every bit of Railjack. The bugs are nowhere near the drama you're creating. Not even remotely close. 

As someone who played on ps4 he's not entirely wrong ab rj. I quit the game because the grind bugs and gameplay werent just there. I don't plan on coming back for a while. And yes it's great you enjoy it but based on how alot of people feel about rj he's not entirely wrong