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[DE]Pablo

Why Do We UI Like We UI?

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2 minutes ago, Nathalieh said:

It seems that you just read the part were i stated what i don't like and glossed over the whole explanation of why the new design works, it has the information you need instead of just a brief description for lore and stats.

I read everything you said. There is, clearly, an open question as to whether the design works. 

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This looks nice and I need to echo the support of labels.  Even unique art for items in a table may not be functional in a UI. Its still art.  Words are universally functional, like strings in the cells of spread sheet.  Not pretty, but effective.  I prefer effective.  I didn't say efficient because there are wildly variable values depending on the workflow of any given UI.  Most of the time I'm not querying for information but performing actions.  I do not like it when shortcuts like spacebar or enter for conformation or continue actions are left out, or break when a screen is reskined.

Lets make sure the inputs these nested tool tips require are also weighted against the simplicity they enable on any given screen when implementing a nested mouseover element.  I have to do some careful key presses to get snipped screenshots of UI that requires mouse over.

The Chat window needs to be fixed so it doesn't mirror tab input when the user is also tabbing though a mouseover and chat was left in focus.  Consider an option where the nested elements of a mouseover are always displayed, tiled next to the base tool tip.  Yes, cover the screen!

Speaking of the chat window: can this get reworked too?  I have to place mine in the upper right so I can see the incoming whispers that appear in the lower left of the window.  The problem is the window contently shifts down to avoid the top of the game.  It also ignore drop down window requests from time to time and needs to be refocused.

 

Edited by Sahysa
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So, i feel that most of the UI changes so far are... Fine. That said though, there are places that could really use a second look.

For the idea that unique item logos explains why item labels are now a thing of the past... That would make sense if the icons 1: communicated what the item is on its own; 2: didn't have individual icons used over and over on 30-50 different items; and 3: had a limited number of items that could easily be recalled at a glance. Having 200 different resources, and a ton of buildable items that use the same and, nondescript icons for their parts isn't good for this system.

Mind you, ink not saying the icons are a problem. (though i think DE needs to roll the resources into only a few in categories and only have unique resources whena new update comes, rolling them into the general resources once its been in the wild for a while.) If we have these icons though, we need labels to know what we're looking at.

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I'd like to add something for my platform - specifically regarding the UI navigation aspect. Although I've no idea how technically feasible this is. Allow us to use the DS4 touchpad for cursor navigation to mimic the fluidity of using a mouse. The touchpad button would register as a left-click; while the D-Pad Up button would register a hold - e.g. for Drag & Drop (modding) and scrolling. So scrolling: when hovering over a scroll-container, D-Pad Up + a touchpad flick would give rapid scrolling with momentum; or slow swipes for smooth scrolling (the scrollbar need not be dragged). To my knowledge, these won't conflict with existing key bindings and alienate players. But what if your left-handed? All the buttons on the right are already assigned in menus... R3 sees minimal usage, but it's a strain on your thumb. Maybe this overkill and a fool's errand, but I'm posting it anyway.

EDIT: Well it seems a mouse can indeed be used for cursor control. Drag & Drop is supported and the mouse wheel allows rapid scrolling without latching onto that scrollbar. Although the 'BACK' menu element is not clickable. We can even control the camera within our orbiter. So I have my left-hand on the controller and the right on the mouse: it would be perfect if the all the context actions activated with the controller's right-side buttons had mouse assignments (middle and right mouse buttons?).

Edited by (PS4)coma-edge
TIL Warframe has (limited) mouse compatibility.

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Can I suggest the stupidest thing?

Make the reward screen modular, so that players can pick what they want to be shown? And scroll it through pages?

If my weapons are all full ranked I don't care about them, maybe I care about loot and only loot, maybe I don't care about team performance

Divide stuff and have people set how many things they want to cycle through

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Speaking of Abilities, how about making the ability screen adapt something akin to Railjack 's Player Intrinsic screen? those fancy Cards with perks, specs, and stats on the other side.
You don't necessarily need to show everything at once, but players can choose to display all abilities performance and modding effects without extra amount of hovering and only few clicks away, that way checking the tons of available tips can be done while taking note of the ability performance as well.

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When you re-design the mission summary screens, please also work on the current state they are implemented. Currently we get to see the same screen 3 times with loading times in between and only in that 3rd screen we can actually interact. This has always been one of the most annoying sequences for me personally.

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Pablo, it seems that you are not committed to either keeping players or making news players interested. How on earth a new player is going to differ items? Be empathic, how the hell a new player is going to identify what is what? This new screen is not good, is not clean, it is at least pretty, but pretty does not convey on usability, you should have end of mission ui which show items, the progress, the mission, why showing the warframes? Is it really necessary?

And you said that you are looking at your contemporaries, are you going to delve in their mistakes as well? Several games which featured UI revamp were hardly criticized. Do not let this mockup go live, I repeat, do not let it go live.

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On 2020-01-24 at 9:43 PM, Gabbynaru said:

Ok, I'm cool with the new UI changes. BUT:

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This needs to come back in one way or another. Hovering over abilities just to notice different stat changes is a pain in the butt. The ability stats should always be on display, and the videos, descriptions and all that could be hidden behind a hover or a click on the ability, as that would act as giving a more detailed description. Stats however, we need those on display at all times, because at the end of the day, stats are all that matters in this (and most other) game(s), so obfuscating it is just wasting the players' time.

Also, please hide the end of game stats for other players. They only lead to toxicity. Do display the players own end of game stats (Damage dealt, damage taken, total kills, blah blah), but hide what the other players did. We don't need to know that, and neither does anyone else. All it does is create a stupid sense of competition that shouldn't even exist in a cooperative environment, and that sense of competition brings with it toxic behavior. So just hide it. It's unnecessary and doesn't help in any positive way.

In terms of the abilities screen, why not have a system similar to the intrinsics menu, where it's a toggle click to flip/expand a menu (that is saved, for next time you come into the menu). Also the passive 100% should be out ALL THE TIME (most passivesbarely even take up the same amount of space the button does)

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hace 7 horas, (PS4)coma-edge dijo:

Allow us to use the DS4 touchpad for cursor navigation to mimic the fluidity of using a mouse.

Exactly. PS4 users can use a mouse to move the cursor, but not the touchpad. This is beyond me.

on Nintendo Switch it is even worse. You have a big touchscreen in your hands, but you can’t use it to comfortably push a button or navigate a menu.

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What does a man have to do to get less hovering over, less about, less redundant menus & less stupid UI design around here? Clearly feedback isn't working out.

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Well... I don't hate it, but there really need to be labels for items if at all possible. Because it'd be nice to know if I got a new part I need or another dupe, ahaha.

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11 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Don't @ me

Sorry, but my aim is to make this conversation public, so that people can chime in and give their two cents. This is how dialogue and discussion works, and it's the only way of reaching a conclusion, or at least some points. Loved your reply though, you did a good job addressing my points.
 

 

11 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

We get to give input, we do not get to be the directors of their project

While I agree on that, it would also seem that every time DE updates something, the majority of the community doesn't like it. That stems from DE not taking into serious consideration our feedback (at least that's what it seems like, even if unintentionally). There are posts here, on the main subreddit and on youtube (primarily from Warframe partners) that address many issues, and you can clearly see from the like/dislike ratios and comments that people really favor those changes and want to see them in game.

 

 

11 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Something shifts in the development cycle, frees up a few people for UI, why not?

Because different resources should be allocated to different tasks. If the same people that work on the New War work on the UI as well, then great, assign them there. But assigning people to tasks they are not familiar with only makes the problem worse in the long run. In Railjack, having like 8 8 8 8 intrinsics is good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you can play every role as well. My favorite role is engineering, for instance, and I'm damn good at that, but if you tell me to pilot, I'm bound to screw up and slow the team down. Similar logic can apply to human resource management in a company (disclaimer: I'm not claiming to know how businesses work, my expertise is not on that field, I'm just using some logic here that sounds....logical ).

 

 

11 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

That same crowd is also Super restless about when that content comes out and is sick of waiting. We want it all. All at once. Perfect, and early, and stunning, and Now.

Yes, the community can be absolute cancer when it comes to new content and content droughts. But the fault also resides -in part- within DE, as they always try to cater to everyone, pleasing no one in the process. I think if DE was to come out and say "Hey people, prepare for a serious content drought, as we are aiming to fix a LOT of the stuff in Warframe, in accordance to your feedback", the majority of the community would appreciate it.

 

 

12 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Yeah, we asked them to.

Did we though? Aside from bugs and glitches that have been in the game years now, it seems like DE is throwing everything in the back burner, while at the same time releasing unfinished content. The final kuva lich and railjack content we got is not like what we were promised. DE hyped the content to no end, only to deliver it bug ridden, imbalanced and unfinished.The result? Major discomfort and frustration from almost the entire community. And all that because DE backed down from the pressure of the community to release content fast, thus resulting in sub par content. As I said before, the community is to blame for a large part of the quality of content DE puts out, but DE is also to blame, as they don't know when NOT to back down from people that act like children. This vicious cycle has brought Warframe to a state that is less than favorable for DE and the community, and the only way to fix that, is for both the DE and the community to change stances about content droughts.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Serevor said:

Exactly. PS4 users can use a mouse to move the cursor, but not the touchpad. This is beyond me.

on Nintendo Switch it is even worse. You have a big touchscreen in your hands, but you can’t use it to comfortably push a button or navigate a menu.

Well I just plugged-in a mouse to my PS4 and I'll be damned it works! Even the mouse wheel works for scrolling. Is this common knowledge? I never had a clue. 

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  • double click to select is terrible. If you need examples look at Arcanes, picking Relics, changing Loadout slots(if u want to change from Mag to Valkyr for example). We dont have a stupid mouse and dont wanna double click on stuff.   (its probably a pain to fix because putting the cursor over doesnt select it or highlight it any more)
  • It would be nice to be able to resize the tiles in windows.  If I open my inventory I should be able to only have the grid by 3 tiles wide so they are super big and easy to see or 6 tiles wide so they are super small and hard to see.  Right now we dont get a choice.
  • Love that new end of mission reward screen, especially with our warframes.  Any chance it could just show the warframes without the info until we get back to our ship or click a button on that screen?  Maybe make it optional which method is used..
  • Will you guys ever make the chat box keep its shape after log outs??  I stretch the chat box across the entire screen so I can read it more easily.  But everytime I log in I have to restretch it.  Thats dumb.  
  • I play alot of No Man's Sky and you have to hold to confirm on just about everything there and it sucks...
  • On console atleast, something that really sucks is that when your in a trade window, what the other person is trying to trade you is displayed on the bottom of the screen and overlaps with the chat box and makes it very hard to see details.   Like if I am trying to trade for a requiem mod I cant tell if the guy trading me is trying to hand me a used one or a full one because I cant see the stars because they are buried under the chat window.

-----------------------------

I appreciate the new UI backgrounds and sound packages.  I have baught alot of them(sounds are extremely lacking in choices).   But man in my opinion most of the UI changes have not improved anything, in fact they usually make things harder,  harder to see info,  more clicks,  hidden info.  (Like you cant even tell what pet you have equipped if any at a glance now, you have to goto the stupid pet tab,  thanx that is very helpful when im trying to quickly switch loadouts and go on a mission with other people)

When are we getting a RJ component & armament tab in our inventory so we can see what to get rid of instead of paying plat for slots????????

 

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unknown.png

I can literally delete half of the entire screen and still see the same amount of information.


You just overemphasided the last UI rework and basically said that it worked well on the ability screens because it gave you more room to add more detailed info on how abilities work, yet for the end of mission screen you are now planning to instantly waste half of the screen on a picture of the frame played . . .


If this is the intended plan, at least have it show the 4 players as it currently does, but only for a brief moment (2-3 seconds),then have the bar scroll up to the top of the page hiding each player's frame to give us a full-screen view of the end mission results.

unknown.png

You may think this loks like overwhelming info at a first glance, and with this kind of example it quite possibly is. However, most of these items would not be shown to a new player, as they would not yet have access to archwings, amps, sentinels, K-Drives, syndicates etc, so those options would not be shown untill they progress and unlock them one at a time. Also, more often than not, when starting out, new players would only aquire a half a dozen diffrent types of items in 1 run EG:(1,800 credits, 40 Endo, 1-2 mods and 1-2 resource items), meaning that new players would still only get shown a small amount of information in their first several missions, and would not get a full screens such as this untill they are further into the game, once they are more used to the UI, knowing what to look for/at on the end of mission screen.

Making a button to raise/lower the player bar there to get a visual of which player was playing which frame would also be a nice addition.

 

My last bit of critasism about this, is you say your logic was that 90% of your items have very recognizable icons, but I think this is a bit misleeding. For starters, there are currently 35(ish?) frames, with a lot having prime varients to them, taking the total to around 69(ish?), removing some for obvious reasons (excal Umbra/Prime) that dont use these parts/can't be crafted , as well as adding in a handful of sentinels. Almost all of them share the exact same 3 icons for Systems/Chassis/Neroptics, and lets not get into weapons sharing the icons for Barrels, Stocks, Receivers, Handles, Pouches, lower/upper limbs, strings, grips, blades, links and so on . . .

I can understand that avarage players can tell at a quick glance that they got a part for either a weapon or a frame etc, but once they are in your inventory, or if you didnt pay attention to the reward screen for a brief moment you may not be able to tell what you got, and the only way to find out is to go into your inventory and manually hover over each item individually (if item labels are still off).

I find when helping new players very early on, they dont understand that they can actually build frames etc, because they only see the boss as "Oh look, it's a boss" and dont even notice that they get a part of a frame that can be built, if you are to add to this; that item labels are hidden on the end of mission screen . . . . . . I think it will be unimmaginablly detrimental to the new player experiance, making them think that they have to pay platinum for every weapon/frame in the game and would immediatly be put off the game forever after their first day.

These latter items (frame/weapon parts) are the items that players find most important to be able to distinguish between, yet sharing these hundereds, if not thousands of items across only 2 dozen or so icons is why I feel that Item Labels are one of the most important parts of a LOOTER SHOOTER, and should be turned on as default and ALWAYS shown at the end of a mission screen.

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Am I the only person who ever wanted to see the stats screen with real numbers instead of just percentages? I guess for percentages to be worked out the numbers must be stored right? Maybe even an option in settings to change that.

I loved one of the raid aspects of WoW (add-on?) that allowed real time numbers etc for healing and dps. While I don't need real time details recorded or displayed for any given time (although I would love it for extending testing purposes), I think having the number plainly stated for damage dealt and taken etc would be awesome. 

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Looking again at the proposed end-of-mission screen, yet another issue pops out. The names across the tops suggest that the displayed information - progress, drops, mods, etc. - should be read in column, but in fact it should not. It's a single "row" pertaining only to one character. (in other words, Bobbobobobob seems to have a column below his name, as does DougDougDoug and the rest, but they really all are for Bobobobobob). 

It's not as major as the loss of half the screen space to images, but it's still another problem with the space use in the screen. The names of the rest of the squad should be elsewhere - perhaps up top right, with their little "Crewships Hugged" or "Madrigals Sung" fluff bit (which I do like, btw) displayed. Then there's no question that the data below applies only to you. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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On 2020-01-24 at 4:16 PM, IronHair said:

Also, the core issue is that DE wants to keep the same UI for console / PC players, which means that their major player base has to lose out and be forced to experience simplified UI.

I get console players need easy to access options with their controller, but you are doing a major dis-service to PC players.

I would say the current UI is worse on consoles than PC. 

It's not responsive at times, lags, and having to drag the slow cursor from one end of the screen to the other. 

Edited by (XB1)Togashi
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On 2020-01-24 at 10:33 PM, [DE]Pablo said:

In a conversation, our answer should have been closer to “These are the abilities, do you want to know more about any of them?” then the player can say which one they want to know about.

Yeah but you don't do that, when player asks: what are my abilities, your answer is "heres breating fire dragon, and some icons with some text that maybe means something I dunno, what do want now?" You also fail to realize those two feedback types arent pulling you in separate directions at all, problem of old "spreadsheet" overwhelmingess is not that it tell you too much, is that it tells you something you have no idea what it is. You can have pure ability stat blocks at mod menu because when modding player already should know what does it do. When a player asks you about abilities show them what do they do, not how does his warframe looks, Main failure of old UI is that it didn't explain S#&$, why does elemental ward have heal stat? why does effigy have credit multipier? Nobody knows, you didn't explain anything!. And now new players are getting owerwhelmed with blank screens that force them to play Wheres Waldo to see what they want.

 

As for avionics vs mods, I'd rather have colorful mods than meshed together avionics with abstract icons that tell jack S#&$ with tiny shapes you need to look specifically for to have some kind of idea how strong it is but that may still be a lie

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The main current UI problem I'd need addressed is being randomly stuck in Navigation... Not being able to zoom out, click anything, esc, etc. That's been around for YEARS. The only way out of it is either to wait up to a minute for some reason, or sometimes open chat. Been like that randomly for more than 3 years. ...Could just be something with my peripheries? No clue.

Anything else, these folks in here and DE can sort out.

Edited by kapn655321

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very interesting ,but that being said with all the information you have given us about how you guys come up with how the UI works ,why is the railjack UI so rubbish to use ,it doesn't take into account anything you have said .

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Please fix the game then change the UI.

Second if you have to do it try not to hide any information it is just bad design (item names, etc).

And last but not least make it easier to use eg: Syndicate remove the extra screen as it doesn't have anything on it just to go to the buy stuff.

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