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Why Do We UI Like We UI?


[DE]Pablo
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Please just STOP with the hiding of all of the info at first glance, forcing you to hover over tooltips and - even worse - press tab whilst hovering just to flip through a few pages in a tiny box.

I want all the numbers and info straight up front without having to faff about clicking and hovering and so forth. That new end of mission screen doesn't show AMOUNTS of things like creds, endo etc on the face of it. Having that information hidden away annoys the absolute ever living eff out of me and it's the reason I absolutely despise the new UI schema. Sure it looks nice and all but its useful information display aspects are beyond ATROCIOUS.

tl;dr stop hiding all of the info behind tooltips!

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Don't get hung up on whether Pablo was correct to suggest that 90% of the icons have a unique art asset -- the issue is that the important ones do not. Weapon parts, warframe parts, mods (aside from color)...those are the things that we hunt for, and the things that have something like real "value." 

If they were to try to unique-ify those icons - so I could tell a Chroma neuroptics from a Banshee neuroptics or a Vectis stock from a Ninkondi chain - that would mean creating what, almost 200 new icons for the warframes and hundreds of unique icons for weapons? I hope that's not what they were thinking about, because...man, just use labels. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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Good morning. Go grab a coffee, or another beverage of your choice, as I am about to ruin your Monday morning.

I have been asked multiple times about my opinion on this thread and I didn't have the time to look into it. I've seen memes and some legit discussions happen over the weekend. And now I've found time to check this thread out. tl;dr you've got the right idea, but execution sucks.

So, let's start with Abilities screen:

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Old screen sucked, it needed a remake and you did it. There's one issue though: new screen sucks as well. BTW, new Wiki design followed this idea as well. And it sucks. What are the issues?

  1. Wasted space. Ask yourself: what's wrong with this screen?
    3RNXGfS.jpg
    You're trying to "hold a conversation". Your "conversation" uses 10-15% of available space. And it doesn't convey everything it needs to.
    Why can't I click an ability to expand it for more information?
    Why don't you show tips related to this ability inside a bigger ability window?
    You clearly have the space to show all abilities side by side, why is there no button to do that, like Show Base Stats?
    Why?
  2. There's a large number of abilities that do a lot more than is described. We don't need to go far, let's check out Effigy:
    HW30PEA.jpg
    Drain and Drain per second, Damage, Health are understandable. But what are Speed Increase and Armor Reduction?! Oh, right, I need to read Tips to learn that "While Effigy is active, Chroma receives a Movement Speed increase and Armor Reduction". Okay. Do I reduce enemy armor? Or is my armor reduced? This clearly needs better wording.
    But there are 2 more rows: Credit Multiplier and Extra Credit Chance. Why is there no explanation regarding this anywhere in the game?
    This screen is supposed to explain everything I need to know to play Chroma efficiently, but it clearly fails to do so.
    You haven't fixed the issue, you swept it under a fancy rug.
  3. There is however a good part to this: modding UI
    LHi4iSl.jpg
    This screen is good, it shows me everything I want to know (well, almost everything) and it does so in a concise manner.
    There are a couple things that could be added, but overall it's good.

Moving on: market and chat links.

I opened the market and saw this screen. It's fine if I want to buy something.
aI3r6L8.jpg

I then linked [Pennant] in chat mid-mission to check its stats and got almost the same screen. And there are problems. A number of them.

LFeurHl.jpg

Unless I hover over About I don't see any stats. None. Null. It still baffles me.

But when I do hover over the About button I get exactly the same screen as when I hover over Purchase in the market:

jKhPDbV.jpg

Why do I see duplicate price, Blueprint Owned and MR icons? Why is Mastered different from the Blueprint screen? Why is there no "Damage" stat, but instead whole distribution? Why are there a bunch of unimportant stats, that I've marked with yellow arrows?

But wait, there's more! Let's compare the Blueprint hover:

fgpZ7JJ.jpg

Original is the in-mission link, pasted over is Market version. I've got just one word: why?
I would benefit from resource requirements in mission. Immensely. Why did you remove them?
I want to see short stats when I link an item (I don't need crap I marked earlier, not for quick estimate). Why do you not display them? There's enough space for them even in the Market screen, if you move Gift into Purchase and compact it a bit.

You'd think this is all? Think again!

9dmUtU5.jpg

If we had a better Abilities screen, you could have Abilities button here, instead if these hover icons. But that is not the most important part.
Can you find stats? Like Health. It's here, in About/Purchase

vOsgkzd.jpg

5 rows of quite important information. But you see, there's an issue here. These are stats for an Unranked Chroma. At rank 30 you will have quite different stats.

Whatever, what do I need to build it?

YVRErhL.jpg

Okay, what do I need to build these?

nSk69j6.jpg

I was told we're holding a conversation. I get a feeling I was lied to.

 

More infuriating stuff.

You spoke of holding a conversation. 90% of UI is fine with Icons. You know what two things make this screen work?
jBKgmsb.jpg

Item labels and search. The only two things icon tells me are which era relic is from and its refinement. Labels have to be THE default, regardless of number of icons and pictograms over other icons. And it's not just Prime parts: regular weapon parts, arcanes and various keys as well suffer from this. And there's a ton of items I don't know names off the top of my head.

Refinement is a bit illogical as well, but I can live with it.

 

You know which other UI has an issue? Lich History screen in the Codex:

WpeZOLV.jpg

You know what useful info this screen holds? Very little: it tells me if I have vanquished or converted a lich and if I've traded them. It also kind of tells me their element. You know what it doesn't tell? Their weapon or even approximate roll. Oh, and you see that Search at the top? It might as well not be there - it doesn't search anything in this screen. At all. Not even names.

It would've been much better if at least Search worked here and in Trade.

 

You spoke of Railjack UI. Let's talk about it as well, shall we?

Please tell me, what crucial information this screen is missing: tHsFncq.jpg

stats.

Speaking of stats, QYFWc0O.jpg

Where's Projectile Speed, total Damage and Projectiles per shot? These are vital stats, unlike Noise.

 

Since we're here, let's talk about other stats. Is this Ablative Shell maxed?dsK9MQl.jpg

And while we're at it: which if these Hull Weaves I have equipped?3H0d8kr.jpg

This UI sucks, there is not enough VITAL information for me to play the game.

 

But maybe you've improved? Let's see the new End of Mission screen:

b25e3cfd2b562d17ab311ec8cba22780.png&key

Nope.

  1. Left side will almost always have 1-4 items hidden (companion, AW weapon, AW, K-Drive). Having syndicates listed here is nice, however if you have more than 2 syndicates, or scanned at least something, you could explode mere one row up to 3, here's how:
    - Having New Loka, Perrin, Red Veil and Steel Meridian, do a mission for Perrin or New Loka.
    - Have Red Veil sigil equipped.
    - Scan anything.
    - You gain standing with Perrin, New Loka and Red Veil, lose standing with Steel Meridian.
    - You also gain standing with Cephalon Simaris.
    You now need to display changes to 5 Syndicate standings. And I don't recommend displaying only positive changes.
  2. But that's not the biggest issue here. How many Credits and Endo did you get? I see you got a Handle, which Prime weapon is that? Kronen, Galatine, Dakra? I saw there's going to be sorting, but can we have search as well, please?

There is room for UI improvement. A lot of it, but please, consult someone before implementing UI changes.

Edited by [DE]Helen
removed swearing
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I think there is a lot more things that should be addresed.

MODDING AND ABILITIES SCREEN

I think everyone already talked about this, but I'll just tell what I think: yeah, the old abilities screen was a lot better. We've got some compensation in the abilities on the modding screen, but the thing is, you still have to fly the mouse over all the abilities to check out how one mod affected all the abilities - and I think we should see the changes immediately. Like a little table that shows all the abilities right there, on the modding screen itself. And when you put a mod that changes the stats, you can see everything right from the get-go.

ARSENAL, INVENTORY

Right now it's a great pain in the butt when you literally can't just see what weapons in your arsenal have a potato.

Also, it would be great if we could just access inventory with one button, because it really gets old when you can't just sell trash blueprints from the foundry or mastered weapons from the arsenal. Or just give us the ability to sell stuff from the foundry and arsenal. And why can't we see how much slots do we have in the arsenal itself? That's just too much, man.

MASTERY RANK TEST

It already has been talked about in the post, but I think it should be addresed more obviously: when game proposes us to take a test for the mastery rank, it would be great if just under it we had a clickable link to the training mode, so we could just practice the test, until we feel confident enough to try and pass it. And it should be a really big button. Also, it's really, really annoying that we have fail-states in the practice modes. Mastery rank test, where I had to rescue a hostage and kill a lot of guards with just melee just made me tear out my hair in frustration. Figuratively, of course, but still. Why just not make the practice mode infinite, but if the player passes the test, you just show a prompt, if the player wants to leave practice? It would a lot more practical. Just look at Hotline Miami. You're killed dozens of times, but all it takes to reset you is just one press of a button. No awful loading times and screens.

SIMULACRUM

I don't actually use it at all, but I've seen from the videos that there is still no dedicated button just to reset all enemies, so everyone has to waste time to go back to the console and reset them manually. And yeah, it's already year 2020, and we still can't test the modular weapons. Why? I can't just decide if I want this combination from the sheer number, I need to feel it! Please, allow us to build kitguns, zaws and amps in Simulacrum to test them out, I beg you.

As we talk about combinations, we don't have a market mode, where we can just try out everything we want. It could be tied to Simulacrum, actually, and really would improve a lot of things - for example, I want to try out different combinations of cosmetics, but I have to buy everything separately and I don't know if it will look good.

MARKET, CODEX, LEVERIAN

Back to Market: for some reason, Leverian is buried there. Wouldn't it be a lot better if he was situated in the Codex? When I was a newbie, I actually read every article there was to understand what to do in the game. And yeah, why we still have this annoying ???? in the Codex for mods? I want to know what every mod does and I will - I'll just have to link it in the chat, and yeah, it will waste my time, so why do we still have it? It does absolutely nothing? And it would be really, really good if you could select the mod and then click on the names of the enemies and modes below, just to check out where should we farm this mod. And drop chance with actual numbers instead of just color - I mean, "Bite" drops from Kubrow really rarely, but I have to go to the Wiki just to realize it's 0,01% drop chance. I need those numbers to realize, should I invest in the grind or not. Also, to have some system to sort mods out would be great - for example, I don't want to see the augments at all, because I just to want to check out mods that are only farmable from the enemies. And can we have the separation of enemies in the Codex? Keep usual ones and the ones from Railjack separate.

FOUNDRY

Talking about clickable, this shoud apply to the foundry to. Sometimes you don't even know where resources that we need come from - and it would be really great if we could click on them and get the information, where or from whom they drop. Like, just this week, I was building Gauss, two of his parts require materials from the Venus, but the third one needs stuff from Cetus. And I really didn't know that and I went to Fortuna just to realize that I had to go to Cetus.

Yeah, you could just say 'read the Wiki!', but come on, everything should be in the game and it should be transparent, so everyone can understand how to get things they want.

FISSURES SCREEN

It would be actually great to see how much parts from the set you have - so there won't be situations, when you need two parts for something, but the screen just shows you that you already own the thing. Just make it like a little window, where under or above every prime part you see information, from what set this part is, how much parts do you have, etc.

 

Thanks again, I hope someone will read this and adds something to my suggestions.

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Most UI changes you did, didnt add more information and made it even more difficult/complicated to find them.

Looking good isnt as good as a clean and proper base of information.

 

the fact that i still need to use the wiki all the time speaks for itself... and i play since 2013.

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In what way does having item labels off by default benefit the player? In what way would having them on by default harm the player?

DE devs may be comfortable with them off because you immediately recognize the symbols. Players may not. Actually, more likely than not players don't. If players are comfortable without labels, or feel overwhelmed by them (which I find quite unlikely tbh), they can then toggle them off.

Item labels should be on by default.

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On 2020-01-24 at 9:33 PM, [DE]Pablo said:

Why does the new Railjack UI use hold to confirm?
This is another new thing we are trying with Railjack UI, confirmation popups are tried and true, but they do have some disadvantages, for example this one from polarizing Revenant.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this, primarily because its slower.  Particularly in the railjack forge, I'd rather be able to forge things with one click instead of holding for a full second.

Also, side note, the holding UI is bugged in that if you're holding the button building revolite (for example), but more resource comes in, the new resource popup interrupts the build, and you have start the hold timer over.

 

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I'm dying to see what happens. Plethora of feedback, information, alternatives (better ones), yet i doubt it will be taken into account. What will happen is, they will take the feedback that goes in line with what they had originally planned and then do that and proclaim how they listened to players. Expect more mouseover, hover, click to show, empty screen shenanigans in the future. Until the game gets really bad (cough, current situation is amazing /s) and a lot of players leave, they won't realize. When they do, it will be too late.

Edit: Someone suggested to do a poll about this stuff. That would be interesting to see. Let's see what democracy would decide.

Edited by FiveN9ne
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I'd like to see all selection screens have more robust options for sorting things.

For example, primary weapon selection should be able to sort by type (shotgun, sniper, bow, etc).

Melee weapon should have a similar option (polearm, sword, dagger, staff, etc).

Basically, whatever the various categories of mods are (or restrictions, like sortie conditions), there should be sort options for. So when a newbie gets an exciting new mod for polearms, they aren't forced to manually look at individual weapons to see which is a polearm (oh, thats a machete, oh thats a staff, oh thats something else, ..)

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On 2020-01-24 at 1:33 PM, [DE]Pablo said:

The compromise we arrived at to try and circle this square, was to use a variant of progressive disclosure, which in practice means we add more information, but put it behind rollovers or clicks.

I'd rather the info NOT be behind rollovers or clicks, ... such as vaulted status for relics in the relic ui which has yet to happen.

On 2020-01-24 at 1:33 PM, [DE]Pablo said:

Why does the new Railjack UI use hold to confirm?

Why do I have to waste a second or two during intense moments to CONFIRM I want to build something when a simple click->confirm can be so much faster in the heat of battle?

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First off, I've seen it complained that these changes to the UI are supposedly to make the console controls better... and I can tell you emphatically, that as a console user, the experience has degraded greatly since before the UI overhaul began. They clearly do want to unify the control schema because the console versions required heavy modification of cursor locations or somesuch, that they had to manually(?) change when they changed the PC interface or moved any elements around.

So the changes have not been for the benefit of the console interface. (the virtual mouse cursor is horrible, even moving quickly, and however it decides where to auto-snap the cursor to when using the d-pad is a constant battle against the UI, blending d-pad presses with analog stick movements... it's a pain ... just trying to describe one instance that exemplifies this situation is hard because it's universally bad in every screen... though star chart navigation is where I noticed it first, and most often, followed closely by trying to use fast travel in various locations.)

~~~~~~~

That said...

The amount of missing, important, information is abundant on many screens.

The presented End Of Mission Summary screen is woefully inadequate for summarizing what happened, and what we got. This should be the "feel good" part of the mission - telling you what you got... reinforcing that it was worth your time to play the game and you were rewarded!

Things I'd like to know:

  • How much affinity I got for each piece of gear.
  • How many affinity ranks did the gear get (early on, you get more than 1 rank in a mission... advertise how well we did!)
  • What drops did I get?
  • How many did I get, and how many do I have in total now?
  • Where did the drops come from, if not dropped by enemies? (Name of the cracked relic, which cache #, bounty stage reward/bonus, Boss, Rare Cache)
  • Which drops were rare? (make people feel good when they get the gold rarity drops - and know not to spend them frivolously if multiple blueprints need them)
  • What was the mission node name (and planet), what was the mission type, and how long did it take?

I want to see all of that information AT-A-GLANCE, without scrolling... and with all the screen real-estate open to be used... this shouldn't be an issue, as people presenting better mock-ups of mission summary screens have shown.

I don't care about what the rest of the team did so much, as I'm not comparing myself to them. If anything stat related about the team is required, I'd put goal-specific stats in there, like for Interception: how many towers claimed, towers defended... just stuff to help emphasize playing the goals, rather than doing your own thing that doesn't really contribute to the success of the mission.

I would NOT put how many crates/lockers opened, or things that people could yell at others about "wasting" their time, etc... some people consider those good things to do, others do not. It can cause conflict, especially if they can point to end-of-mission numbers now to back up their disagreement of play style, and how much you're going against what they want (no matter if it doesn't matter - they'll still do something like this).

The questions "Who were my recent team members?" and "what were they using or wearing?" could be answered in a new "Mission Log" menu option on the orbiter that collects these end-of-mission summaries for review at a later time - perhaps a whole week's worth, or more. From such a log, you could review that person's fashionframe, using look-link if you want to copy it... or review the builds they had on their weapons and use the other link thing, to copy it to your build to try out later. You could also block them or send friend requests from this log.

 

The Railjack UI has been lambasted enough by others to the point that I don't see the need to comment further on it, as I am in agreement with probably every single comment made against it.

 

I will echo the reasoning that the LACK of information (and why certain numbers are important, and what they change in your gameplay and decision making process) is what leads to confusion. Just showing people less information isn't going to be any less confusing, because the game still requires you to really know all that information to make good decisions.

Confirmation pop-ups need to convey what your button presses will result in. People skip over "are you sure" boxes all the time, because that's all it's asking, and if they pressed the button, at the time, they wanted to press that button, so the caution doesn't present a "double-check" opportunity - it's just another button press to get to what we (thought we) wanted to do.

 

I will also say, one of THE most important details about Relics is currently locked behind a tab-to mini-popup... and that is "IS THIS RELIC VAULTED?"... when you're in an endless Fissure, and you have SECONDS to choose a new relic and decide to make it radiant or not, the LAST thing I want to be doing is hover-tab, hover-tab, hover-tab to find NON-vaulted relics to crack for void traces... and avoid the vaulted ones until I'm back in the orbiter to make them radiant, or decide to wait and just hold on to them... but really, that needs to be AT-A-GLANCE displayed on ALL RELICs.

 

Less hidden information, MORE explanation and detail please. People need to know why things are important, and then the confusion goes away - they can mentally focus in on what they need to make the decisions they are making. Of course, a wall of text, or list of ambiguous numbers and text tags are almost as bad as not showing any information at all... that's confusing. (as noted by many other posters above.)

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Simply put this game is a numbers game and players want statistics in front of them and as much of it as we can get at all times when its relevant to the action we are doing, first and foremost basic stats should be immediately in front of us so it can be looked at in a quick glance than either a hover over or a click option to see more detailed stats can be a option the upgrade menu is a good example of this.
As for most of the the rework there seems to be a lot of wasted space for no apparent reason other than to what.... look pretty? I get having a relatively seamless UI rather than cluttered one is all well and good until it becomes a detriment to the player when we have to dig for information then flip back between 2 or 4 menus to go apply that said information to action we where doing.
Put bluntly relevant data should be always visible to the action of which the player is currently engaged in a good example of this is the relic screen labels, search bars, corresponding info, filtering etc. all of it is there with only one thing missing from it... drop locations other than that its perfect however you know whats not perfect? The market screen holy hell 90% of the info you need is hidden way with 70% of the screen taken up by a sometimes interactable diorama which may or may not function depending on the item you are looking at, making us jump trough hoops to get the info we need is poor design it needs to be made as simple as possible.
The EoM screen is a improvement as long as the data i.e. item labels, amount gained and mission time are on by default on the same screen but I would eliminate that "feel good bar" i.e. "5 crewships destroyed" above the all the critical data its useless and irrelevant info which could be taken up by more pertinent info.
Another thing I would like to touch on is the MR icon bluntly put that new one is awful it looks like something I would see in a mobile game, the ones we currently have are fantastic while having elegance and character to them those new ones look like a piece of melted plastic that somebody left out in the sun to long keep the current ones and ditch the idea of the new ones.
One other thing I want to mention is this idea of a hold to confirm its a bad idea no gamer likes it its a waste of time the current system you have of a "take action, then screen to confirm action" is far better, faster and more seamless and this is coming from a console player who has seen many of the hold to confirm crop up in games on the platform which devs seem to think we need this hand holding action in order to not make mistakes..... we don't. Frankly its annoying at best and downright degrading at worst please reconsider this all it will do is merely slow down things we need to do and nothing more.

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This is probably going to get lost in the mountain of responses, but there is one thing I'd like to suggest.

 

Overall I like the direction of the end of mission screen, however it would be really nice to have an "expand" button that would expand (duh) the stats on the bottom half to cover the Warframes. Not show new info (keep the stats on the separate screen, also expandable), just show as much of the drops/affinity stuff as possible on one screen (without scrolling). I like the default showing fashion, but sometimes I'd like the option to see more in one shot.

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12 hours ago, Shadedraxe said:

I’m 100% down with that. Brozime brought this up as well. None of these stats really matter, and have little to nothing to do with objectives in the game. Oh but players sure do get overly aggressive over who dealt the most damage.

Nor does whatever joe random pug 1232334123 has for a warframe matter. 

They sure put down a lot of work into something we will just esc and then leave squad as soon as possible from. 

Since they are again going style over function i guess i read any relevant information in the liset instead. 

 

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21 hours ago, Paragon_Night said:

Always saying we hear you and we heard the feedback

Oh they said they heard us. Doesn't mean they're listening:tired:

6 hours ago, Gendalph said:

 

Spoiler

LFeurHl.jpg

 

Unless I hover over About I don't see any stats. None. Null. It still baffles me.

This. THIS. A thousand times, THIS!

Quit wasting all this space!

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Following some comments from both here and reddit, I made a third version (which will probably be the last one) adding mission name and type in the top bar, removed the users bars as that would fit better on the mission stats/squad showing and modified the bottom part to make the 3 options better looking.

KtJ853M.png

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30 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

Following some comments from both here and reddit, I made a third version (which will probably be the last one) adding mission name and type in the top bar, removed the users bars as that would fit better on the mission stats/squad showing and modified the bottom part to make the 3 options better looking.

 

Spoiler

KtJ853M.png

 

This is your best one yet. 

Much easier to see at a glance what you got and if you want to skip squad you can and those that want to skip stats can do that. 

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18 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

Following some comments from both here and reddit, I made a third version (which will probably be the last one) adding mission name and type in the top bar, removed the users bars as that would fit better on the mission stats/squad showing and modified the bottom part to make the 3 options better looking.

<snip>

This is how it should be done. Everything that's important is visible regardless of whether you're a veteran or brand new.

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On 2020-01-24 at 8:53 PM, xERENx said:

Oh1FJWqvXymomZOoi7xF99rDV7M8LnscVyfVRCHt

I saw it on reddit and it looks tidier and without having to give much to the mouse wheel
 

 

1 hour ago, LeaserResael said:

Following some comments from both here and reddit, I made a third version (which will probably be the last one) adding mission name and type in the top bar, removed the users bars as that would fit better on the mission stats/squad showing and modified the bottom part to make the 3 options better looking.

KtJ853M.png

I'd like a mix between these 2 screens, using the main format of the bottom one, with the Mission Rewards & Pickups, and Mods in List form as the top version.

It could be both, just like Windows File Explorer, allowing small icons, big icons, list... (I just like the compact version of those lists a lot more)

 

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Personally I believe that the abilities screen should just be for people new to the warframe trying to figure out what each one does, and as such should have descriptions always displayed, with videos and stats coming up with a mouseover. This way when you are a newer player trying to figure out what the warframe does, you don't have to then also mouse over to the abilities to read them, whereas when you look at them in the upgrade menu it's probably because you want to see what your mods do to each ability, so it makes sense to have them as a hover. Maybe just spreading the abilities a little more and raising them a bit to put a description underneath. Nothing too drastic but will likely help newer players when it comes to figuring stuff out.

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There's been about 2 threads a month about how Warframe's UI is a disaster. I'd like to cite them here, but for some reason searching for threads containing, "UI" brings up nothing for either body or topic. Not sure why that is... but, it is something at least a few people have been caring about tremendously for some time. Plenty of other fixes suit our individual needs better, but this is just another one of them that irks some players to the core. The level of disaster we perceive depends on what we focus on personally.

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