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DE and Riven "perception" locking


LordEcks
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This won't be a long one.

But I'm calling DE out on this Riven Disposition BS.

Thousands of hours into the game, and the Riven dispo's they set just don't add up.

There are too many weapons in this game that MIGHT be good or useful, but DE is scared of that so they lock Riven dispo to 0.5.

 

This isn't like the catchmoon, where people really WERE actually using the hell out of it.

Weapons like:

Venka Prime:  Nobody uses this damn thing.. especially after melee 3.0.   They locked it to 0.5 not for usage statistics.. but just to keep it from being popular.

War: Almost nobody using this anymore either.  If anything the usage statistics come from how many people 'have' the weapon, not how many actually use it.

Hirudo:  Nobody uses the Fist/Sparring weapons, and they know it.  They put a healing passive on these, and to keep it from being overused locked it to 0.5 dispo.  (Comically enough, they would've done the same thing to the Korrudo, but instead labeled the healing on that as a mistake, and removed it.)

The Zenistar:  Yah.. maybe like 2 years ago?  Do you ever actually raise these stats after nerfing them?  Is it just, "It was popular once, so we'll never do that again."

Rakta Dark Dagger:  No.. really.  0.5.  Have you EVER seen this used?

Lesion: Maybe like 3 years ago?  This hasn't been a thing since ZAWs came out.

Secura Lecta:  Was never a thing.  No one cares about credits.

Orthos Prime: 5 years ago.....

Atterax: 3 years ago.  Possibly still used up until October, when spin2win was slain.  Definitely hovering around the 3% usage mark.   And all of those people just havn't read the patch notes and don't know MS isn't additive anymore.

The Staticor:  Sure, some people use it.. but to 0.5?  Seems unlikely.

Fulmin:  Probably deserves its 0.5.  Still rox without a riven though.

Tigris: Probably the same as the Fulmin, but I'm more likely to believe this has seen less use in the last 2 or 3 years.

Ignis: Deserved

Amprex: This is probably the only dispo rating based on 'actual usage data'.  (Note: Its a 2 star, not a 1 star dispo)

Euphona Prime:  Sincerely doubt it.  Not since you killed it shortly after its release, then subsequently nerfed the falloff into the ground.   This 'gun' has less range than most modded melee weapons employed by Tenno.

 

//RANT

 

There are tons more, but the point is... I really think they're snowing us. Alot of these weapons just don't get the usage they're claiming they do.

Hundreds of weapons, but only 4 or 5 that don't suck.  Stop gimping all the weapons that could have a chance at being useful.

 

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A lot of people play either solo or only with people they know. But also it seems highly likely that usage stats are being compared (or at least highly weighted towards) to weapons within their own class.

Like the Venka Prime having a low disposition because it'd be the most used claws type weapon, or like how nearly every sniper rifle has low dispositions even though the majority of their usage only comes from Eidolons.

But also they're using their own "internal ranking" where they've more or less decided a baseline disposition for a weapon to gravitate towards based solely on its performance. As such weapons that may have been popular at one point but not anymore may be near this disposition and aren't underused enough to warrant an increase.

Edit: Oh right, melee Rivens haven't been updated yet. Regardless my point still applies for weapons being compared largely to their own category of weapons.

Edited by trst
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You don't seem to know the community as well as you think you do. I know people who's main melee are sparring and are really good with them. 

And the war is one of the highest base damage melees, it's just not super common cause it's impact. 

And a few of these (like Zenistar) just haven't been updated because they aren't done with Melee reworks yet 

Edited by Miser_able
There. Fixed. Happy?
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Yah I get it, but there are points where that just doesn't make sense.

The Venka Prime would be the most used claw weapon, I agree.  Especially since there are only two claw weapons in the entire game.

3 if you count Valkyr's exalted claws, which don't generate Rivens.

(For Reference, this would be Venka, and Ripkas)

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4 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

You don't seem to the community as well as do. I know people who's main melee are sparring and are really strong. 

And the war is one of the highest base damage melees, it's just not super common cause it's impact. 

And a few of these (like Zenistar) just haven't been updated because they aren't done with Melee yet 

You don't seem to know English grammer as well as I do.

Sparring/Fist weapons are my primary and my most used weapon is the Ankyros Prime, and has been for years.

This is why I'm complaining.  I want options, and they're extremely limited because of DE's "perception" of popularity.

Edited by LordEcks
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Popularity is mostly irrelevent to disposition except in the most stupidly obvious cases. Rarely used weapons can now of course be in some of the lowest disposition.
Since disposition is now said to be determined on DE's internal power ranking table, decoupling it from being a simple usage and popularity adjusted stat, which it never did an amazing job of.
While you probably aren't wrong, DE hasn't put out usuage numbers of weapons so it's impossible to actually know where things stand even if it mattered, which it doesn't as DE have that power ranking table, which may or may not be arbitarly biased af, but who knows besides DE.

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How Riven dispositions are locked or adjusted is absolutely **** ****. Once a player worked hard and rolled that great roll or buy that Riven with great stats for your most used weapon, next month DE nerfs it. This just render any in-game efforts and time/Plat investment useless. This is not how a game should be designed. This is breaking it. 

Rivens and the system was one of the few things players could enjoy even after playing thousands of hours after maxing out everything.       

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I kind of feel that rivens were really just a mistake. The way I understand it is being a way to basically "balance out" weapons but it's not good for that. If something is powerful and used a lot people are just going to as an extra stat stack (like Critical Damage or Multishot) to stack a lacking stat on a weapon. For the weapons with an extremely high disposition it's like stacking on an extra 6 mods (best case scenario). I just feel like they can just be substituted in as a crutch for many things.

One of the things that can't be argued is that they're really good for the plat economy between player. So that's one positive on them.

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1 hour ago, LordEcks said:

You don't seem to know English grammer as well as I do.

Sparring/Fist weapons are my primary and my most used weapon is the Ankyros Prime, and has been for years.

This is why I'm complaining.  I want options, and they're extremely limited because of DE's "perception" of popularity.

*gasp*! How dare someone have spelling errors on mobile at midnight?! It couldn't be tiredness, or autocorrect, or device issues right? It must be stupidity. Thank you good sir for setting me straight, I'll go work on my English grammer. 

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1 hour ago, LordEcks said:

You don't seem to know English grammer as well as I do.

Sparring/Fist weapons are my primary and my most used weapon is the Ankyros Prime, and has been for years.

This is why I'm complaining.  I want options, and they're extremely limited because of DE's "perception" of popularity.

 

6 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

*gasp*! How dare someone have spelling errors on mobile at midnight?! It couldn't be tiredness, or autocorrect, or device issues right? It must be stupidity. Thank you good sir for setting me straight, I'll go work on my English grammer. 

The irony is that it is spelled grammar.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

 

The irony is that it is spelled grammar.

My autocorrect can be janky sometimes. For some reason it says grammer is the correct one. So I tend not to notice. 

I also don't really care. Same reason I don't always use apostrophes in certain words. If you gets the idea across understandably, it works for me. 

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3 hours ago, trst said:

A lot of people play either solo or only with people they know. But also it seems highly likely that usage stats are being compared (or at least highly weighted towards) to weapons within their own class.

Like the Venka Prime having a low disposition because it'd be the most used claws type weapon, or like how nearly every sniper rifle has low dispositions even though the majority of their usage only comes from Eidolons.

But also they're using their own "internal ranking" where they've more or less decided a baseline disposition for a weapon to gravitate towards based solely on its performance. As such weapons that may have been popular at one point but not anymore may be near this disposition and aren't underused enough to warrant an increase.

Edit: Oh right, melee Rivens haven't been updated yet. Regardless my point still applies for weapons being compared largely to their own category of weapons.

Tl;dr: they do whatever they want to do, stop bothering about rivens.

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5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Venka Prime:  Nobody uses this damn thing.. especially after melee 3.0.   They locked it to 0.5 not for usage statistics.. but just to keep it from being popular.

I think part of that is because Venka prime always starts with a higher combo multiplier than other weapons, so it's damage always scales quicker than with most other weapons. even with the new Covert lethality, daggers only start with 17 hits, and no additional multiplier. if they made the Riven Disposition high on the Venka Prime, there's a genuine risk it would become overpowered (I wouldn't be against it, I like them, but you know, balance).

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

War:

War is less used simply by virtue of Heavy Blades being a saturated category and many of them outshine War. we got War, then Galatine Prime came out. then we got Gram prime, and then we Got Paracesis, each one miles ahead of War simply by virtue of not being impact based like War is. War needs a buff to it's stats to make it more viable and give people a reason to consider it over other Heavy blades.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Nobody uses the Fist/Sparring weapons, and they know it

I have from time to time, and I've seen others. usually it's Kogake Prime though.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Rakta Dark Dagger: 

yeah, this got used a lot before the CL changes because it was the best dagger, hands down. still arguably is since it has an AoE syndicate proc.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Lesion: Maybe like 3 years ago?  This hasn't been a thing since ZAWs came out.

sure, but you can put a Skin on the Lesion, can't do that with a Zaw. fashionframers still get good use out of it, I see Lesions quite often.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Secura Lecta:  Was never a thing.  No one cares about credits.

it was for a little while, that's why they nerfed the credit gains from it. bear in mind this was long before the Index was introduced, so any serious credit farmers got this weapon and took it to their Credit farm of choice - usually a Dark Sector back then.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Orthos Prime: 5 years ago.....

Orthos Prime suffers from the opposite of War: there's no other Primed Polearms, and even after Coptering was removed, I still saw more than a few of these. we have Guandao and Cassowar now, but some still like the Orthos Prime.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Atterax:

still the most powerful whip though, and DE likely don't want us going back to the days of the Whip Meta.

5 hours ago, LordEcks said:

Euphona Prime:  Sincerely doubt it.  Not since you killed it shortly after its release, then subsequently nerfed the falloff into the ground.   This 'gun' has less range than most modded melee weapons employed by Tenno.

wait what? are you just using the alt fire or something? alt fire is a hitscan shotgun, primary fire is a projectile that goes a LOT farther than any melee.. not sure what you're doing wrong here lol.

usually there's a good reason for giving them lower dispositions, you just have to sue those weapons a lot to see what it is. even if they are legitimately being overlooked, that's easily done in a game with over 300 weapons. one or two are bound to go unnoticed. you want to talk about a neglected gun? I can't think of a better example than the Stug.; now there's a weapon that's been trash forever.

 

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4 hours ago, Miser_able said:

My autocorrect can be janky sometimes. For some reason it says grammer is the correct one. So I tend not to notice. 

I also don't really care. Same reason I don't always use apostrophes in certain words. If you gets the idea across understandably, it works for me. 

Not a spelling Nazi, but if you start a post insulting someone don't expect your reply to go without criticism.  

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I think part of that is because Venka prime always starts with a higher combo multiplier than other weapons, so it's damage always scales quicker than with most other weapons. even with the new Covert lethality, daggers only start with 17 hits, and no additional multiplier. if they made the Riven Disposition high on the Venka Prime, there's a genuine risk it would become overpowered (I wouldn't be against it, I like them, but you know, balance).

War is less used simply by virtue of Heavy Blades being a saturated category and many of them outshine War. we got War, then Galatine Prime came out. then we got Gram prime, and then we Got Paracesis, each one miles ahead of War simply by virtue of not being impact based like War is. War needs a buff to it's stats to make it more viable and give people a reason to consider it over other Heavy blades.

I have from time to time, and I've seen others. usually it's Kogake Prime though.

yeah, this got used a lot before the CL changes because it was the best dagger, hands down. still arguably is since it has an AoE syndicate proc.

sure, but you can put a Skin on the Lesion, can't do that with a Zaw. fashionframers still get good use out of it, I see Lesions quite often.

it was for a little while, that's why they nerfed the credit gains from it. bear in mind this was long before the Index was introduced, so any serious credit farmers got this weapon and took it to their Credit farm of choice - usually a Dark Sector back then.

Orthos Prime suffers from the opposite of War: there's no other Primed Polearms, and even after Coptering was removed, I still saw more than a few of these. we have Guandao and Cassowar now, but some still like the Orthos Prime.

still the most powerful whip though, and DE likely don't want us going back to the days of the Whip Meta.

wait what? are you just using the alt fire or something? alt fire is a hitscan shotgun, primary fire is a projectile that goes a LOT farther than any melee.. not sure what you're doing wrong here lol.

usually there's a good reason for giving them lower dispositions, you just have to sue those weapons a lot to see what it is. even if they are legitimately being overlooked, that's easily done in a game with over 300 weapons. one or two are bound to go unnoticed. you want to talk about a neglected gun? I can't think of a better example than the Stug.; now there's a weapon that's been trash forever.

 

This is my point though.  If they're claiming to adjust Riven dispo on the basis of its 'usage/popularity' then Venka (and many others) do not deserve such low dispositions.

I use sparring / fist weapons almost exclusively, but I rarely if ever see others use them.

Being the best dagger in WarFrame means you're still in the bottom 10% of the usage statistics, and 9% of that 10 *were* Ivara/Ash players using CL.

Actually, you can put skins on Zaw...so... wasn't that update like 5 or 6 months back? You do read the updates right?

(Lecta) Again, back then.  This nerf was *years* back, and even then it was arguably unwarranted.  Why is it still 0.5?

EP's alt fire is the shotty with falloff.  The main fire is the slug.  It has garbage fire rate, mediocre magazine size, below average reload and its damage spread is 90% impact, and you think I'm doing it wrong?  Seriously, nobody uses this thing anymore. The alt fire shotgun was the lure of the weapon and they nerfed the falloff to 6 meters.  It's been dead since, but it doesn't deserve a 0.5.

Think you may have veered away from the point of the post.  The Stug has a 1.48 Riven disposition which is nearly as high as it gets bro.

 

Edited by LordEcks
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