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@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!


Buzlok
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While I can get behind the intent of the suggestion, I think the proposal itself is a little short-sighted, in that it doesn't really seem to address the root cause of these issues: if stacking range is a problem, we should probably not simply be looking to nerf range mods, but perhaps to not have players mod for a stat that is innately unhealthy when increased to any significant degree. The same can be said for Duration and Efficiency, due to how both lead to excessively high ability uptimes and often more passive playstyles, so if we're going to go for a systemic change here, might as well do a deeper dive and try to fix as many things as can be fixed.

To some extent, I think modding as a whole needs to be reevaluated, because at this stage I feel it's had a largely detrimental effect to the game: bar the exceptions of some older warframes that have multiple builds, most frames and weapons have pretty much just one build, with little room for variation, and that even extends to elemental damage types, such that we all tend to output the same kind of damage in the same way. What mods fail to add in diversity, though, they add significantly in power... and so far that hasn't been a great thing either, because it's made our weapons, and more recently our frames scale to such ridiculous degrees that enemies need hundreds of times more EHP and damage to not be utter pushovers (and even then, they often still are). Effectively, while I do think modding should remain in some form due to the diversity it promises (though doesn't deliver), it should probably be overhauled so that we're not just stacking damage on top of more damage on weapons, or going for cookie-cutter builds on our frames that let us practically auto-win content up to a certain level. Part of the issue I think is that modding is done through generic stat increases, when already the mods people tend to be most interested by are those that offer more bespoke and unique bonuses: if there were less emphasis on generic stat mods, and more on fun mechanics to play with, or alterations to our existing ones, modding would likely start to feel much more engaging, and potentially more balanceable too.

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12 минут назад, CopperBezel сказал:

I don't mind the idea that some elites are more of a hard counter to some frames than others, honestly. Like, nullifiers are a bigger deal to some frames than others, since ones that manage to fall on you end buffs and eat stacks but don't do much else, and they're immune to most ability effects while bubbled, but not direct attacks. So all those 90% DR tank frames have to give nullies a wide berth, while someone like Khora can just melee slam on their heads and keep moving, and Hildryn and Mag have basically nothing nullies can cancel at all.

So comparably, I think it's fine if Hildryn can entirely ignore an energy eximus while it's the #1 only game objective right now as soon as it shows up for a Khora. But I do think we need a visual and sound cue that we're getting leeched and a very visible effect of some kind to follow to the source.

On paper, everything looks good. In fact, tanks are capable of dealing a fairly large amount of damage and killing things very quickly.

For example, nezha, which can tank any levels, has very high mobility and CC. Nezha doesn't have much damage, but melee combat solves this problem. And nezha will not experience energy problems because he generates energy. OK, I agree that Nezha is a support. Very strong support. But I can only work for myself and chop things up without any help.

Another example, mesa. SHe has 95% DR against projectiles, which makes it very tanky. She has no problems against energy leeches, because it can easily stand up in an open area and just grind things up very quickly. Mesa also has no problems with energy, because its abilities are mostly based on duration, and peacemakers are not used all the time, plus the kill rate gives orbs of energy. I don't think she needs any help.

And now the Atlas. Frame, who really concentrates on melee, which is why he suffers from energy leeches. A frame that is forced to spam its abilities to maintain armor. A frame that does not know how to generate energy and does not have a high kill rate for energy orbs. Yes, there is an augment, but it doesn't help much. And here the problem is that this frame doesn't actually do anything for the team, but needs team help.

Titania. You know that I have to give this example. A frame that is constantly under energy drain. A frame that does not have a high kill rate for energy orbs and cannot generate energy. I hope that Titania will do a lot for the team so that these factors can be smoothed out, but for now, Titania is a support with the most useless support abilities. She does nothing for the team and needs the team's help.

That's why, it will just be nerf trash frames, while popular frames just won't worry about it. Of course, this is also considered in ideal situations. Popular frames may also have problems, but they will be much smaller.

 

 

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You're probably not wrong. I'd worry that's an issue with any big counter, though. The stronger or more versatile the frame, the better they can respond, and making things harder makes less viable frames, well, less viable.

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

To some extent, I think modding as a whole needs to be reevaluated, because at this stage I feel it's had a largely detrimental effect to the game: bar the exceptions of some older warframes that have multiple builds, most frames and weapons have pretty much just one build, with little room for variation, and that even extends to elemental damage types, such that we all tend to output the same kind of damage in the same way. 

Imagine for a second that there was no building in Warframe at all, and frames and weapons leveled up in a sequential progression like very simple RP characters. In that situation, the best case scenario would be that that progression looked like the one the mod system provides in Warframe. Except, of course, that we have the ability to change how our frames and weapons work for a new situation or meta, decide to trade off a bit of survivability for better powers for a particular situation or squad composition, etc.

If you expect modding to work like Lego, you're going to be disappointed. But frame builds definitely vary even among mains of a given frame, because their priorities, strength, and playstyle do and that results in different choices. And that progression is also one that changes the gameplay qualitatively as you advance, makes some abilities more and some less effective, and tends to require much more frequent and often combined use of abilities to work. (Which, depending on how I read your post, I almost think is a part of what you think is the problem? But I can't really begin to address that - I mean, yeah, there is a progression in how Warframe abilities work in sum as you build up your mods and other options, and many aspects of that apply to all frames.)

Edited by CopperBezel
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Ohh. I forgot to give the example of Wisp. A frame that doesn't have a great survival. A frame that does not have a large killrate for energy orbs and cannot generate energy. But. This frame has mechanics that make it effective even without energy. This frame has good support capabilities that can be implemented in just 75 energy for an unlimited period of time. Frame who is the best melee user due to the passive ability, if you know how to use air melee combat. And this frame, which has 2 powerful CC forms , is an aggression generator and blinding . A frame that doesn't need the help of the team, but if you help, you get the advantage. Because Wisp has good mechanics.

That is why, before creating more energy leeches, it is worth fixing a lot of frames.

 

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20 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Ohh. I forgot to give the example of Wisp. A frame that doesn't have a great survival. A frame that does not have a large killrate for energy orbs and cannot generate energy. But. This frame has mechanics that make it effective even without energy. This frame has good support capabilities that can be implemented in just 75 energy for an unlimited period of time. Frame who is the best melee user due to the passive ability, if you know how to use air melee combat. And this frame, which has 2 powerful CC forms , is an aggression generator and blinding . A frame that doesn't need the help of the team, but if you help, you get the advantage. Because Wisp has good mechanics.

That is why, before creating more energy leeches, it is worth fixing a lot of frames.

 

Try using Adaptation on wisp + her survival is amazing if you know how her skills actually work.

Try using Hunter Adrenaline on tanky power hungry frames (you mentioned Atlas literally 0 energy issue as long as you get hit)

Try googling Arcane Energize or even buying one.

Try harder cause energy leech eximus are literally nonfactor until very late game and even then there are MANY ways to regain energy (also you know energy pizzas).

/thread

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9 минут назад, Benour сказал:

Try using Adaptation on wisp + her survival is amazing if you know how her skills actually work.

Try using Hunter Adrenaline on tanky power hungry frames (you mentioned Atlas literally 0 energy issue as long as you get hit)

Try googling Arcane Energize or even buying one.

Try harder cause energy leech eximus are literally nonfactor until very late game and even then there are MANY ways to regain energy (also you know energy pizzas).

/thread

Or I can just keep myself invisible or invulnerable all the time using zenuric and passive. And invulnerability is not removed by nullifiers, which is lol. I'm just saying that this frame doesn't have as much EHP as DR tanks. And I said that even if Wisp is without energy, It remains effective.

And, try to use the hunter's adrenaline against mobs that kill you very quickly. I understand that the level of the game remains at LVL 100, where you actually never experience problems with energy, but some frames can always be effective even at levels 9999 without any help, while others are garbage and die against 200 levels.

Edited by zhellon
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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

That is why, before creating more energy leeches, it is worth fixing a lot of frames.

And to be clear, I don't think we necessarily need more energy leeches, I just think they're a decently positive example of a special enemy like nullies that do add some interesting dynamics - if the frustrating invisibility of the whole thing could be addressed. And even though there are frames that don't care about either (like Hildryn) and some that are pretty vulnerable to both, I think it's good that there are frames that are more impacted by one than the other.

What I'd hope to see isn't more of those specific enemy types but more enemies like them that have a similar "let's do all the things that you wanna do" effect on combat when they show up through a specific mechanic like that. Even weird things like an enemy that, whenever frames used abilities near it, would players' convert spent energy into shields for its allies or something (this is a terrible idea for eight reasons, I'm not suggesting it, just an illustration.)

1 hour ago, Benour said:

/thread

Did you happen to notice what the thread was about actually? X ]

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Or I can just keep myself invisible or invulnerable all the time using zenuric and passive. And invulnerability is not removed by nullifiers, which is lol. I'm just saying that this frame doesn't have as much EHP as DR tanks. And I said that even if Wisp is without energy, It remains effective.

And, try to use the hunter's adrenaline against mobs that kill you very quickly. I understand that the level of the game remains at LVL 100, where you actually never experience problems with energy, but some frames can always be effective even at levels 9999 without any help, while others are garbage and die against 200 levels.

O rly? Thx for stating obvious.

Also the frames that can go 9999 (yes all the ones that can abuse stealth) has no issues with energy leechers, cause A you kill them in few seconds anyway B they use energize or two C they have thousands of energy pizzas done, so if you even get leeched you just drop pizza (yes its that easy).

Anyway im bleeding braincells just by reading this thread/comments so w/e im out.

TLDR nerfing range on frames will do exactly nothing useful.

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1 час назад, CopperBezel сказал:

And to be clear, I don't think we necessarily need more energy leeches, I just think they're a decently positive example of a special enemy like nullies that do add some interesting dynamics - if the frustrating invisibility of the whole thing could be addressed. And even though there are frames that don't care about either (like Hildryn) and some that are pretty vulnerable to both, I think it's good that there are frames that are more impacted by one than the other.

What I'd hope to see isn't more of those specific enemy types but more enemies like them that have a similar "let's do all the things that you wanna do" effect on combat when they show up through a specific mechanic like that. Even weird things like an enemy that, whenever frames used abilities near it, would players' convert spent energy into shields for its allies or something (this is a terrible idea for eight reasons, I'm not suggesting it, just an illustration.)

Well, I have a good question, for example, why Ember got energy drain while Saryn didn't.

Yes, for example, Hildryn really doesn't worry about what enemy it's going against (in principle, even against toxic ancients there is an antitoxin, which turns the status of the toxin into a fun thing to activate arcanes.), but the truth is that all of Hildryn's abilities are not powerful utilities. And this makes the frame good and balanced, because you have the ability to use your abilities all the time, but you don't need it all the time. Another point is that Hildryn is the best user of equipment, and even the fact that you have equipped Hildryn gives an advantage to archwing, which is the cherry on the cake. But, I am very saddened by the fact how balanced the frames are relative to each other.

1 час назад, Benour сказал:

Also the frames that can go 9999 (yes all the ones that can abuse stealth)

Each frame can abuse stealth with companions. There are also revenant, nezha, hildryn, nidus, who can tank any levels. (I will not insert rhino here). There are also Khora who can tank with CC, because dome is used as an aggression generator.

 The problem is that the big guy can only use his abilities against 100 trash mobs, expending a colossal amount of energy and then only works as indicators of shields/armor and health. Or Titania, who could take a seat next to Khora thanks to the aggression mechanics for razorfly, but, you can't not that you can't control their condition and position, you can't even control their number. And you're basically not even able to control your own weapons. Energy here is the cherry on the cake of all its problems. 

That's why I say that I don't mind if there are energy leeches, but the first thing to do is to fix the energy system or frame balance, because the ability for 25 energy nuck the entire room, which you can maintain without spending energy just killing things, and the ability that costs 25+5 energy, which gives you the ability to fly and that's all. Yes, there are other advantages, but you can get this more efficiently on other frames with less cost.

And I do not knowingly cite the example of Mag, because Mag is a hard frame that can exist with mobs 9999 level. But what scares me is the amount of energy pizza a person has to spend to perform this complex mechanics. I mean, the mechanics are fine, the problem is energy consumption. And energy leeches only make it worse.

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I have to admit I ignore that pizzas exist so much that I actually forget they do until they're mentioned. I only ever used them for a bit in Railjack archwing until I managed to get a Kinetic Diversion (ArchRage).

20 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Well, I have a good question, for example, why Ember got energy drain while Saryn didn't.

Yes, for example, Hildryn really doesn't worry about what enemy it's going against (in principle, even against toxic ancients there is an antitoxin, which turns the status of the toxin into a fun thing to activate arcanes.), but the truth is that all of Hildryn's abilities are not powerful utilities. And this makes the frame good and balanced, because you have the ability to use your abilities all the time, but you don't need it all the time. Another point is that Hildryn is the best user of equipment, and even the fact that you have equipped Hildryn gives an advantage to archwing, which is the cherry on the cake. But, I am very saddened by the fact how balanced the frames are relative to each other.

Balance is definitely a mess always in Warframe, and I don't know if that's avoidable. 

I agree with most of this, but I'm a bit confused on a couple of points. Re: energy drain, do you mean the ongoing drain that triggers when Ember's meter is full? Or something else? I'm not following where she came in. And what's Hildryn's advantage with equipment? (I wasn't aware of the archwing thing, but that's certainly a bonus.)

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38 минут назад, CopperBezel сказал:

Balance is definitely a mess always in Warframe, and I don't know if that's avoidable.

I agree with most of this, but I'm a bit confused on a couple of points. Re: energy drain, do you mean the ongoing drain that triggers when Ember's meter is full? Or something else? I'm not following where she came in. And what's Hildryn's advantage with equipment? (I wasn't aware of the archwing thing, but that's certainly a bonus.)

Well, at the expense of Ember, I really don't really understand why DE try to limit players with energy, if you can use negative bonuses. It's like someone would start stealing ammunition from me just because I take too long to fire a weapon that doesn't require ammunition.This saddens me. I think ember would be better off if overheating would consume HP. Yes, you can heal yourself, but it makes more sense because you can actually manage hp, but you can't do it with energy.

Hildryn, this is my favorite topic. Armor strip allows you to use weapons that don't benefit from hunter's ammunition or corrosion as much. And you can actually put any combination of statuses, because armor and shields are not a problem for you. Also, ammo is also not a problem for you, because you always have an infinite Blaster. Dangerous weapons also become useful because you can't blow yourself up when shieldgate is active (of course, the toxin is an exception, but the hunter's adrenaline won't kill you) You can also always give shieldgate to your companion, which increases their survival rate by many times. And, my favorite, you can generate orbs of energy, which actually gives your operator infinite energy. And, shieldgate acts on archwings, which increases the survival rate of all archwings. Shield ospray can save you a lot. The only warframe that actually benefits from shield ospray. For me, this is the best user of equipment at the moment. But, hildryn does not work well without equipment because abilities are not strong. This is a good balance, I like that the frame has the efficiency depending on how I sort the equipment and manage the shields. But energy is a sore subject, because it is either there or it is not. This is really difficult to manage.

Maybe DE could release a mod that redirected energy to shields and forced abilities to use shields. Maybe this would solve the problem of many thin frames, but there will still be those like Atlas or Valkyrie who don't get enough of their abilities. Although Valkyrie is good at boosting melee weapons, but you know, Wisp.

Edited by zhellon
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4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Imagine for a second that there was no building in Warframe at all, and frames and weapons leveled up in a sequential progression like very simple RP characters. In that situation, the best case scenario would be that that progression looked like the one the mod system provides in Warframe. Except, of course, that we have the ability to change how our frames and weapons work for a new situation or meta, decide to trade off a bit of survivability for better powers for a particular situation or squad composition, etc.

We have the ability to, but rarely the incentive, and ultimately altering builds and weapons to a meta eliminates choice, rather than encourages it. If every weapon can be modded for Corrosive damage one day, and Radiation the next, that eliminates a lot of diversity, and we're seeing this already with weapons becoming more generic for it: the Ignis, for example, isn't known as the game's flamethrower, because the weapon is rarely built for full Heat damage, but is instead used because it can damage lots of trash enemies at a time without having to aim much.

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

If you expect modding to work like Lego, you're going to be disappointed. But frame builds definitely vary even among mains of a given frame, because their priorities, strength, and playstyle do and that results in different choices.

Which frame designed in the last three years has more than one meta build? Having the choice to alter one or two mods based on preference is not that great a degree of choice when there are far more slots available, and that already implies the existence of mandatory mods.

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

And that progression is also one that changes the gameplay qualitatively as you advance, makes some abilities more and some less effective, and tends to require much more frequent and often combined use of abilities to work. (Which, depending on how I read your post, I almost think is a part of what you think is the problem? But I can't really begin to address that - I mean, yeah, there is a progression in how Warframe abilities work in sum as you build up your mods and other options, and many aspects of that apply to all frames.)

Yes, it is a problem when certain abilities cease to function once enemies scale past a certain level of EHP. It's the reason why Vauban received auto-scaling damage, because otherwise he'd have two more dead abilities in his kit. It's also why Ember was given an armor strip, lots of damage steroids, and massive base damage on her new abilities, because it felt massively awkward for the game's fiery nuke frame to only be somewhat okay in higher-level play as a weapon buffer, and so because that was the only part of her kit that didn't fall off. It does not take a genius to see that this comes from Power Strength only providing one layer of damage increases to frames, whereas weapons have several, namely base damage, multishot/attack speed, elemental damage, and sometimes crit. If there were a proper evolution to how warframes played, then I'd be on board with you, but it's not an evolution so much as a degeneration, where damage abilities cease to work adequately on enemies with high EHP unless they scale in their own way, and where abilities in general become less effective against ability-immune or nullifying enemies, to the point where the most reliable options become personal steroids. It tends to favor the same sorts of builds in the same manner, and it's this cookie-cutter approach to modding that ends up making it only slightly more diverse than the sequential progression you mentioned, and so at a far greater cost in complexity and balance. If we're going to have a system as complex as modding in the game, it needs to justify itself by offering a sufficient degree of choice, and one or two free-choice slots per average frame or weapon is simply not good enough.

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Yeah, I just can't agree on much any of that. You're absolutely right of course that direct damage abilities don't meaningfully scale, that's well known and comes up a lot. The only exceptions draw from weapon mods or other loopholes like Vauban's level-scaling grenades, which themselves only really work because he has armor strip elsewhere in his kit (and the same is true for Orbital Strike and for Ember where there isn't such scaling built in.) It's a weird quirk of the game that direct damage falls off as you advance, but CC and buffs and debuffs all come in a lot of flavors and make up the bits of the game that are actually complex and interesting right now. It sucks for frames that have abilities that are pure direct damage, and DE should certainly stop creating those, but it's a good dynamic for the many CC abilities that start off as a radial nuke at lower levels but become a stun or drain or whatever else later on. The kits actually get more complex later in the game, and that's good. I don't think direct nukers are mechanically very interesting, and having more of them around even at high levels would certainly result in a more cookie-cutter game.  

As for recently designed frames not having more than one build, I'd say that they're more likely to vary within a range than have very distinct extreme builds. That's actually a result of having more coherently designed and interactive kits, as opposed to chaotic collections of unrelated abilities, and it means that you're actually likely to be using three or four of those abilities in play. With older frames, whose kits are instead collections of unrelated abilities that may not each be relevant to the game as it presently exists, you choose one ability to build for and maybe have one other ability that you actually use in play. (Full kit reworks, obviously, fall into the "new" category, so Ember is a "new" frame whose meta works more like a Gauss's than like a Nova's, etc.) 

On modding I don't agree at all. People build frames very differently; I have yet to see someone post a Nova build that happens to match mine. Even when it's just down to which survivability mods you use or whether you give up a little strength for a little more range, etc. You know, I get a new operator arcane or focus node and I adjust frame builds as a result. You don't get that with a wholly linear progression. I'm not picturing what you would do with frame builds instead that would be more engaging. I've played games that involved building vehicles freeform out of actual blocks and parts where I saw about the same ratio of copy-pasted meta vs. actual choices. (Which is high, of course, I can't help that the majority of players aren't going to do anything interesting. The point is that I have the flexibility to do so myself and get more out of the experience as a result.)

Weapons are boring and consist of only mandatory mods with a little variance for what you have available, what you prefer, and what suits the gun best, and I don't think it adds any depth to gameplay - it's a linear progression plus Ikea effect. In terms of complexity vs. depth, that's about 100 times better than the ratio than the damage system provides.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

I think ember would be better off if overheating would consume HP. Yes, you can heal yourself, but it makes more sense because you can actually manage hp, but you can't do it with energy.

That does make more sense. And thanks for the explanation with Hildryn, that makes a lot of sense as well.

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how bout better idea

put challenging things in the game

and give the players ways to deal with it that isnt just damage

like ancient healers in general, pretty much other enemies are invincible unless u kill them, so u have to look for em then kill em
nullifiers are difficult cuz you have to look for them, if you dont your skills get cancelled and depending on the frame could get ya killed
eximus units, parasite is the real kicker for frames that rely on energy as their range is horrendus
freeze is just a shield which actually can be pretty effective and fire ones knock you down(why why dont burn you is besides me), and leeches are even more bullet sponge which isnt bad as its just one type
thats why eximus sorties at max lvl are kinda challenging
now, eximus units arent the most creative thing, though simply add more to normal content. On the star chart, you barely run into enough enemies of this type of challenge where u have to actually react instead of just kill
nuking isnt a problem its how enemies just die to a nuke as the problem
id think higher lvl enemies should be more smarter and maybe have some sort of counter
one thing that I hate about grineer and corpus is that they just shoot and with scaling they become a problem because they dont die and they kill you in one hit

how bout, make it so there are more enemies focused on hindering you? maybe make it so theres a moa that jumps towards you and drains energy, and while its ability is active you cant kill it, you have to actually dodge it or something
one thing about corpus tilesets I like and hate are the magnetic doors
idk why magnetic kills our energy(prob something about transference tbh), but maybe make it so status effects are more prevelant, maybe make it so some corpus enemies can use magnetic ranged attacks or set up those shock traps/maybe a magnetic trap? putting out a drone that adds shields doesnt do anything
grineer seem to be more about weapons like ogris nd gorgon, maybe give them different types of weapons, maybe make it so butchers can use weapons with stances and heavy attacks and slams etc
infested are pretty ight, just buff the spawn rate more(so its like a horde, it happens sometimes but need more) and make it so juggernauts are more common, give them some abilities like leap etc
infested have the spitters with corrosive, tho yeah make it so these different status effects effect warframes more and are more common, a bombard might proc blast every now and then, but why dont I see puncture procs happening when im being sprayed by bullets? why arent corpus using technology to defeat us? why do infested not mutate and are just the same mobs, and why is the one mob that spawns as a semi boss(juggernaut) able to be one shot with it having no mechanics? why is there like 1 boss per planet? why doesnt every mission have some sort of boss you have to avoid, kill, or outwit, why is it just endless waves of bullet sponges that do nothing? why are corpus the only one with anti tenno enemies(nullifiers) and why do they only have one?

questions to be answered
maybe make some helminth chargers spawn in infested tiles and  

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16 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, I just can't agree on much any of that. You're absolutely right of course that direct damage abilities don't meaningfully scale, that's well known and comes up a lot. The only exceptions draw from weapon mods or other loopholes like Vauban's level-scaling grenades, which themselves only really work because he has armor strip elsewhere in his kit (and the same is true for Orbital Strike and for Ember where there isn't such scaling built in.) It's a weird quirk of the game that direct damage falls off as you advance, but CC and buffs and debuffs all come in a lot of flavors and make up the bits of the game that are actually complex and interesting right now. It sucks for frames that have abilities that are pure direct damage, and DE should certainly stop creating those, but it's a good dynamic for the many CC abilities that start off as a radial nuke at lower levels but become a stun or drain or whatever else later on. The kits actually get more complex later in the game, and that's good. I don't think direct nukers are mechanically very interesting, and having more of them around even at high levels would certainly result in a more cookie-cutter game.  

Okay, but what you're just saying is that you dislike nuke frames when they make CC and utility less useful and thereby make gameplay less deep, which I can totally get behind. I don't think the solution is to make nuke frames fall off, though, and ideally we should have an environment where nuke frames can do their thing at all levels, without damage completely dominating at any given point, or any of those frames turning low-level missions into walking simulators before having their scaling fall off a cliff past level 50 Grineer.

16 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

As for recently designed frames not having more than one build, I'd say that they're more likely to vary within a range than have very distinct extreme builds. That's actually a result of having more coherently designed and interactive kits, as opposed to chaotic collections of unrelated abilities, and it means that you're actually likely to be using three or four of those abilities in play. With older frames, whose kits are instead collections of unrelated abilities that may not each be relevant to the game as it presently exists, you choose one ability to build for and maybe have one other ability that you actually use in play. (Full kit reworks, obviously, fall into the "new" category, so Ember is a "new" frame whose meta works more like a Gauss's than like a Nova's, etc.) 

Okay sure, but that simply means that warframes as a whole are stuck between having either just one type of build, or an incoherent kit. Neither option is optimal when one could wish for frames to have a variety of builds and playstyles, yet also zero dead abilities each time. This is a problem inherent to the current state of modding and its emphasis on overarching stat changes, rather than finer-grained mechanics.

16 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

On modding I don't agree at all. People build frames very differently; I have yet to see someone post a Nova build that happens to match mine. Even when it's just down to which survivability mods you use or whether you give up a little strength for a little more range, etc. You know, I get a new operator arcane or focus node and I adjust frame builds as a result. You don't get that with a wholly linear progression. I'm not picturing what you would do with frame builds instead that would be more engaging. I've played games that involved building vehicles freeform out of actual blocks and parts where I saw about the same ratio of copy-pasted meta vs. actual choices. (Which is high, of course, I can't help that the majority of players aren't going to do anything interesting. The point is that I have the flexibility to do so myself and get more out of the experience as a result.)

I mean, if you're experimenting with a different build for every new mod you get, more power to you, but that makes you a distinct outlier, as builds are pretty set across the playerbase (and the fact that you're still unlocking Focus nodes suggests your experimentation also comes from not yet unlocking all of the meta options yet). Nova's builds for example tend to max Duration (outside of her Wormhole build), and doing so is optimal due to how it maxes out both her 4 and her 1's number of charges, so ultimately even if you're building differently, that suggests you are also building suboptimally, hence why people aren't going for your chosen builds. More generally, putting aside how weapon builds themselves are extremely rigid (you just pile damage on top of more damage, with perhaps one or two slots for utility), warframe builds are infamously focused around min-maxing certain stats, which ultimately makes the whole mod selection boil down to whichever ones you routinely string together to overclock one or two ability stats while dumping on the rest. Certain more specific mods will work better for certain frames, e.g. Rolling Guard on Limbo, but even then, that tends to fall into a meta, e.g. Adaptation on pretty much any frame that's already innately durable. Thus, modding does not give incentives to diversify at the moment, which is why I think we should focus more on augment-like mods and other effects that focus on adding more gameplay, rather than just more power. 

16 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Weapons are boring and consist of only mandatory mods with a little variance for what you have available, what you prefer, and what suits the gun best, and I don't think it adds any depth to gameplay - it's a linear progression plus Ikea effect. In terms of complexity vs. depth, that's about 100 times better than the ratio than the damage system provides.

Okay, so by your own admission, weapon modding is not in a good state, though I wouldn't agree that all weapons are boring either, just that their modding is. It is generally not a very strong argument to claim that one system is good simply by stating it does better than a poorly-performing system: being a hundred times better than crap can still mean your system is crap, and in this particular situation I don't think warframe modding being better than weapon modding really excuses its mediocrity either.

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8 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Okay, so by your own admission, weapon modding is not in a good state, though I wouldn't agree that all weapons are boring either, just that their modding is. It is generally not a very strong argument to claim that one system is good simply by stating it does better than a poorly-performing system: being a hundred times better than crap can still mean your system is crap, and in this particular situation I don't think warframe modding being better than weapon modding really excuses its mediocrity either.

Well, some warframes and weapons may have multiple builds, so modding works. But I'm a little saddened by the fact that DE abandoned the growth tree system for each frame and weapon, as it was originally.  Each frame could get more fine-tuned with this system. What any unique bonuses for example.

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14 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Well, some warframes and weapons may have multiple builds, so modding works. But I'm a little saddened by the fact that DE abandoned the growth tree system for each frame and weapon, as it was originally.  Each frame could get more fine-tuned with this system. What any unique bonuses for example.

If only some frames and weapons have more than a single build, then modding clearly isn't working. I don't think the old tree system was good either, as it had the habit of driving players to min-max their frames to the extreme and outright unequip some of their abilities. Unique bonuses, on the other hand, I'm entirely in favor of, and I think those would be the ticket towards a greater diversity of playstyles.

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17 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Well, some warframes and weapons may have multiple builds, so modding works. But I'm a little saddened by the fact that DE abandoned the growth tree system for each frame and weapon, as it was originally.  Each frame could get more fine-tuned with this system. What any unique bonuses for example.

Kinda why they have augments as using a growth tree system for this vast amount of warframes would be all consuming and impossible to balance. 

While it sounds cool an paper, its not practical. The meta would find its niche and people would use the strongest combo to become the meta and nothing would change. 

Except that new content would be on hold for the next year or so as DE tried to make that system work.

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1 минуту назад, Teridax68 сказал:
If only

some frames and weapons have more than a single build, then modding clearly isn't working. I don't think the old tree system was good either, as it had the habit of driving players to min-max their frames to the extreme and outright unequip some of their abilities. Unique bonuses, on the other hand, I'm entirely in favor of, and I think those would be the ticket towards a greater diversity of playstyles.

I'm talking about a tree system. I don't remember if it was for a warframe, but it was definitely for a weapon. Tree in the form of small bonuses. There was also a mod slot in the tree, but this wasted a few points that you could spend on other bonuses for the tree. If there was no catalyst, the tree was half open, and you could only have 30 points to distribute.

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