@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!

[CopperBezel]

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That could be ideal, but would be a lot of work to covert and might make things less intuitive (which god knows Warframe can be obtuse enough already).

A friend of mine suggested that it would have worked better for Garuda's concept if she'd been casting out of health instead of having energy, and then Hildryn came out. = .

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Kinda made a system a while ago that addresses with a rather basic formula. There is no efficiency , each warframes receives a unique amount of energy for waiting around or killing with weapons. Kills with skills do not generate energy but some skills would be able to generate energy on hit so casters can fuel themselfs for example both gauss one and nidus one would generete energy on hit. Saryn could receive a similar property for ticks of her 1 to.

I know the OP's original idea was nerfing abilities outright too, but I can't express how much I hate this idea. There are plenty of shooters out there, even looter-shooter ones. If you don't have kinetic and frenetic casting to keep yourself alive, you might as well be playing Destiny.

[keikogi]

48 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

A friend of mine suggested that it would have worked better for Garuda's concept if she'd been casting out of health instead of having energy, and then Hildryn came out. = .

Kind think it should be part of her passive cast skill with blood instead of having a 3 skill slot wasted for the conversion.

48 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

know the OP's original idea was nerfing abilities outright too, but I can't express how much I hate this idea. There are plenty of shooters out there, even looter-shooter ones. If you don't have kinetic and frenetic casting to keep yourself alive, you might as well be playing Destiny.

Contrary to what it might seems I don't rate the fast pace of ability cast the problems lies ( for me ) there is no breaks and due to that the only way DE can desing a chalenge is if said chalenge is skill Immune. Like armor reduction immunity and skill immunity have been spreading like wild fire. Even basic mobs like a vomvalists is Imune to 90% of warframe skills even dough the game lore says warframes were effective against sentients.

I dont mind people spanning a line skill , cone cc or buffs , but locking down the entire map or killing everything on button press without any restriction is bad for the game health. I don't mind people being able to do that but having a 100% uptime on skills that literally turn of the game ( limbo ) isn't a good Idea on the long run.

Most of the time the game does even feel fast due to the overwhelmimg amount.of AOE cc. And damage. Like if you are fighting a faction outside of the corpus wither a nova or limbo can make the game feel like a slog. I aware that limiting said ability would made these frames underpowered and therefore need some buff. A second example is mesa killing anything on a defense missions as soon as it enters her line of sight.I dont even mind people casting ability often ( as often as they fire a gun ) as long as the hit box is not to big so people have to aim the skill.

Edit: enemy desing is a big culprit to because more often then not anti ability enemies feel like the chosen one that's immune to literally everthing , instead of having a bumch of diferent unit s that can deal with diferent powers like for example a captain unit for the grineer that can see invisible shuff and can trown a ink grenede to reveal the player but as a downside it has a laser sight on his eye so the player knows when he was spotted. Intead we have a raknoid that just does not give the faintest of #*!%s about invisibility.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by keikogi

[selig_fay]

On the other hand, if I am denied access to razorwing for a timer or a mechanic that I can't use when I want to, I will be very sad, so it's a double-edged sword.

[marceloooo]

So instead of buffing other factions to the level of the Grineer so that people would have to think about their builds and synergies for a change, they are simply gonna nerf them so they are all equally garbage. Yay, can't wait..................

Why they would even bother to do anything about it at all in a game where you have so many ways to strip armor is a damn mystery to me.

 

The main problem with the nuker builds is not the mods, it's the base values, especially range. The fact you can nuke a whole tileset is the whole problem really, and is only possible due to high base range values.

If you nerf mods every build across the board suffers, especially the builds that have nothing to do with nuking.


This power fantasy thing may very well be what they intended but they go 100% backwards about it.

I don't feel powerful at all when I have to do most missions yawning while pressing the same button for 10 minutes without moving. I feel bored as #*!% and wondering what moron thought this was a good idea, nothing else. You can't blame players either because they will always abuse the most efficient way to do something, so even if I don't do it, most people will and ruin the experience for everyone else and that is a fact.

The true feeling of power in a game comes from overcoming challenge, the fact they go out their way to make it less challenging makes zero sense to me.

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, marceloooo said:

So instead of buffing other factions to the level of the Grineer so that people would have to think about their builds and synergies for a change, they are simply gonna nerf them so they are all equally garbage. Yay, can't wait..................

Why they would even bother to do anything about it at all in a game where you have so many ways to strip armor is a damn mystery to me.

Because the operative word is equal.

At the end of the day, the actual numbers are arbitrary. What matters is their proportion to each other. Right now, armoured enemies have massive health bars and unarmoured ones don't. That means DE has to choose between balancing for Grineer EHP and everyone else. Design for Corpus/Infested, Grineer become too spongey. Design for Grineer, and everything else is worthless. You can even see this effect with Empyrean enemies, who are as far above regular Grineer as regular Grineer are above Corpus, and our weapons, tuned to regular Grineer, are way weaker against these uber-tanky enemies. But if all factions are more or less equal? Well, now DE knows roughly how much effective health any enemy will have at a given level regardless of faction. And that means they can tune player's damage output around that universal effective health level, rather than trying to balance around two.

To contextualise, consider Paper Mario, and Final Fantasy Seven's final bosses. Paper Mario's has 150 health, and at max Final Fantasy's has between 55,100 and 400,000 health, averaging about 227,550. Paper Mario's takes sixteen max-damage hits to kill, whereas Final Fantasy's, at its average health, takes twenty one, a difference of just five hits. But if you were to take one protagonist and put them in the other game, than Cloud would oneshot the Paper Mario Final Boss with a blink, whereas Mario would need to dish out 6,122 hits to kill FF7's final bosses lowest health. 

Warframe is in a situation where you're playing Final Fantasy most of the time, but sometimes drop into Paper Mario. At the end of the day, it's arbitrary if everything is brought up to Final Fantasy or brought down to Paper Mario - as long as the entire game is in the same ballpark, then it really doesn't matter, because experientially, it will be the same.

[keikogi]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Because the operative word is equal.

At the end of the day, the actual numbers are arbitrary. What matters is their proportion to each other. Right now, armoured enemies have massive health bars and unarmoured ones don't. That means DE has to choose between balancing for Grineer EHP and everyone else. Design for Corpus/Infested, Grineer become too spongey. Design for Grineer, and everything else is worthless. You can even see this effect with Empyrean enemies, who are as far above regular Grineer as regular Grineer are above Corpus, and our weapons, tuned to regular Grineer, are way weaker against these uber-tanky enemies. But if all factions are more or less equal? Well, now DE knows roughly how much effective health any enemy will have at a given level regardless of faction. And that means they can tune player's damage output around that universal effective health level, rather than trying to balance around two.

To contextualise, consider Paper Mario, and Final Fantasy Seven's final bosses. Paper Mario's has 150 health, and at max Final Fantasy's has between 55,100 and 400,000 health, averaging about 227,550. Paper Mario's takes sixteen max-damage hits to kill, whereas Final Fantasy's, at its average health, takes twenty one, a difference of just five hits. But if you were to take one protagonist and put them in the other game, than Cloud would oneshot the Paper Mario Final Boss with a blink, whereas Mario would need to dish out 6,122 hits to kill FF7's final bosses lowest health. 

Warframe is in a situation where you're playing Final Fantasy most of the time, but sometimes drop into Paper Mario. At the end of the day, it's arbitrary if everything is brought up to Final Fantasy or brought down to Paper Mario - as long as the entire game is in the same ballpark, then it really doesn't matter, because experientially, it will be the same.

The core issue is DE refusal to remove armor scaling. Armor does not need to scale with level because armor efectvily mutiplies health so of the health scales there is no need for armor to scale as well. Since Both scale together the compounding effect is just out of wack and griner units have millions of EHP and corpus and infested have thousands.

It is funny DE literally changed the game damage system and did not foresaw what would happen. In damage 1.0 serrrated blade and toxin damage were kings because they ignored armor and in damage 2.0 corrosove , slash and radiation are the new kings for precisely the same reason.

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by keikogi

[kwlingo]

On 2020-01-26 at 9:26 AM, Buzlok said:

 Having an equilibrium between a game being "balanced" and fun is important too, but even a grind based game like Warframe is dangerous to leave at a stage where it's unbalanced to a boring degree!

 

 

I agree taking away nuking can do wonders. There should be a fun mode where you can nuke all day long. On the other hand good rewards and loot should only come from hard level content that not everyone can do because of the skill it requires.

[selig_fay]

@Loza03 There is one "but". Corpus has shields they are really not a problem at normal levels. But when the shields get too big for the player to destroy them immediately, then shield ospray comes along and does a lot of dirt with its ability to instantly restore 100% of the shield. If it weren't for the toxin and slash, shields might be a problem, too.

[CopperBezel]

Yeah, Shield Ospreys are an enemy type I frequently forget myself, then they show up to save a Tech and ruin my minute. They're good design. 

8 hours ago, keikogi said:

The core issue is DE refusal to remove armor scaling. Armor does not need to scale with level because armor efectvily mutiplies health so of the health scales there is no need for armor to scale as well. Since Both scale together the compounding effect is just out of wack and griner units have millions of EHP and corpus and infested have thousands.

It is funny DE literally changed the game damage system and did not foresaw what would happen. In damage 1.0 serrrated blade and toxin damage were kings because they ignored armor and in damage 2.0 corrosove , slash and radiation are the new kings for precisely the same reason.

To me it makes more sense to frame it as a problem with armor strip and ignore, I.e. with those three damage types or statuses. I mean, the armor scaling wouldn't matter past a certain point if we couldn't reasonably get there. It's the fact we're given very specific tools that allow us to force into absurdly high levels that's the problem, and even that's a problem specifically because the main content of the game has slowly worked its way up that latter and we're stuck with these compensatory gimmicks as the only way to play.

And it does seem very odd for DE to make the same mistake twice. Corrosive annoys me the most, since it gets the same 3/4 armor ignore, 75% damage boost on Ferrite that Radiation gets on Alloy, and then also has stacking armor strip.

16 hours ago, keikogi said:

Contrary to what it might seems I don't rate the fast pace of ability cast the problems lies ( for me ) there is no breaks and due to that the only way DE can desing a chalenge is if said chalenge is skill Immune. Like armor reduction immunity and skill immunity have been spreading like wild fire. Even basic mobs like a vomvalists is Imune to 90% of warframe skills even dough the game lore says warframes were effective against sentients.

I dont mind people spanning a line skill , cone cc or buffs , but locking down the entire map or killing everything on button press without any restriction is bad for the game health. I don't mind people being able to do that but having a 100% uptime on skills that literally turn of the game ( limbo ) isn't a good Idea on the long run.

This is probably true. I've reached a point with both Mesa and Khora where I've got their builds just right and found all the funky loopholes and they're just their most perfect selves, and ... I just can't actually play them for very long without wanting to switch to a weaker frame. And then when some new big thing comes along in the game, I end up having to do it with Nezha because it's a tanking challenge where offensive abilities don't even work. So my best frames linger in the "I can play these when I'm feeling really lazy" closet.

Like, I've only recently got a Saryn and bothered to forma her up at all, because seeing her Onslaught play with a Spores build gave me the impression that she was completely dull. I've had as much interest in playing her as I've had in like, Atlas. I got her, I built her up, I used a Spores build in Onslaught and thought I was right to have thought so. Building for power strength rather than range and relying on the idea that she does damage buffs, a couple of radial procs, and a decoy for staying alive makes her a lot more fun, even though those are the most basic and un-fun-sounding abilities imaginable. 

Meanwhile, new Ember is a weaker Saryn with a smaller range, and she's bloody great fun. She's got a counter to manage and obscenely powerful armor strip and a radial banhammer button all like Saryn, even comes with the same 1 augment, but she's gotta work for it all and it's fun to do.

Pet peeve of mine on immunity to armor strip, by the way: why on Earth wouldn't you just use an enormous health pool? If the armor can't be stripped by any means, it's a flat multiplier to health. All you get from armor that doesn't strip is even more inconsistent level scaling and even more cheese from those armor class modifiers on Corrosive and Radiation.

Edited January 31, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Teridax68]

18 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I don't recall you saying that the first time you didn't, and mod drains aren't presently a thing that matters, so I didn't really have any reason to assume they'd be a thing now.

Have you never tried going for an Umbral build? Trust me, mod drains are a thing, at least for certain exceptionally powerful builds, and even when one does manage to make everything fit, it's not in a configuration that would allow many more mods to be stacked given the extra slots. There was no assumption to be made here, just basic math and awareness of mod costs.

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Fine, okay, mods have individual values now instead of all being worth the same (with the exception that some require polarizations). That would certainly fundamentally alter modding for the better, probably more so than the rest of your Mods 2.0.

Also known as mods having a mod drain on a total available drain pool, which is a thing that already exists.

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Maybe it's a good idea to actually state your proposal instead of dribbling bits out when you need a counterargument?

I did, several times already. I don't have to "dribble" out anything more, I've only needed to restate myself when you've chosen to fabricate arguments from nothing.

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Relatedly:

It's certainly a lot more than there are individual aspects of abilities right now to plug into the system, and I'm well aware that's the entire point, but I just need to be very clear about how much more bespoke design work is going into each of these frames in this picture.

You mean the mod system model that would propose to replace hundreds of generic mods with some comparable number of more bespoke mods would feature a larger proportion of bespoke mods? Good observation.

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The funny thing about modding for general stats, too, is that if DE guesses wrong about what's necessary to make a thing viable, we can sometimes make tradeoffs and build around it - not in all cases, some abilities are just terrible, etc., but it's a dimension of wiggle room - 

How? This is completely wrong; if a stat doesn't work on an ability it messes the ability up in a manner that cannot easily be fixed, and it's currently forcing a lot of abilities to have weird scalings and mechanics just to accommodate the stat-based modding system.

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where the Mods 2.0 skill untree would honestly have a higher bar for success to pass. Maybe easier to balance things, still quite a lot of work to make it happen and a bit more expectation to work out-of-the-box.

So it'd be easier to balance... but not easier to balance? What? Why?

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Do you consider this uncommon?

Disagreeing with the specifics of the OP's suggestion? Not at all, I disagree as well with simply nerfing stat mods, and so do most people here it seems. Disagreeing with the fact that our abilities are out of control, and so heavily due to how we mod them? Absolutely, just look at the conversations going on, to say nothing of the many times mention is made of Efficiency, Corrupted mods, etc. in breaking our ability usage across Warframe's discussion spaces.

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That's inventive. Stonewalling what discussion exactly? You and I are the only ones talking about your idea, and you're emphatically not making any specific suggestions, to the point that I'm having to invent mods in your imaginary system to have something to talk about.

No no, that's not how it works. You and you alone are responsible for your own frivolous arguments, so you don't get to blame anyone else when you make things up and attribute them to me. As it stands, my suggestions have been specific enough for the purposes of this discussion (deprecate mods that provide stat increases, focus instead on mods that add or meaningfully alter mechanics), and you've been stonewalling more than just our conversation, precisely because your opinion is exactly as I've described it:

17 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I know the OP's original idea was nerfing abilities outright too, but I can't express how much I hate this idea. There are plenty of shooters out there, even looter-shooter ones. If you don't have kinetic and frenetic casting to keep yourself alive, you might as well be playing Destiny.

So yeah, you might be on the wrong thread. That, or you've spoken your piece already, and are now seemingly attempt to exhaust people proposing mod reworks here through repetition.

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But no, you definitely do not get it. None of our discussion means anything so long as your proposal and the problem it's meant to resolve are orthogonal to one another.

I'm not sure you know what "orthogonal" means, as I've pointed out precisely what is wrong with ability mods (and am not the only one to do so either), and why my proposal would address that directly, namely by preventing our ability stats from going off the rails and instead introducing more choice through mechanical changes and alterations. That is literally the opposite of orthogonal.

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Again, I don't even think it's a bad idea - I think you really could get an equally interesting game out of it with probably an equal amount of effort. I just don't have any reason to think that this solution addresses those problems.

Because you have yourself stated you are attached to the current ability mod system, to the point of deliberately ignoring its many problems and automatically rejecting any solutions that would touch it. Your wilful ignorance is not a valid argument.

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I think they'd take exactly the same kinds of effort to resolve on a case by case basis just as they do right now, and just as frequently be neglected instead. 

Why? Again, specifics. For someone insisting that I'm apparently not being clear or exact enough, you spend an awful lot of time making unsupported and overly general claims.

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Which is part of why it's so absurd that you're trying to present me as protective of bloody anything.

I don't have to "present" you as anything, I can literally just quote you, as I did above. You only have yourself to blame on this.

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I've been playing long enough that a wholly new system might be fun, so long as it's not going to make the actual in-mission gameplay less fun, and certainly would give me more to play with than Railjack or Kuva liches did. I've also already said that weapon mods are basically a waste of complexity and I'm basically done with those, so there's a lot I'm not attached to, though my go-to "realistic" solution to mandatory mods is still to bring in more alternatives like the Fortuna amalgams.

In other words: "I don't care if the entire game changes, so long as this one thing I'm really attached to stays exactly the same forever." A rather interesting argument to come from someone who also tried to call a rework to a subset of mods "Warframe 2.0."

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And I know you've even said that you don't consider your unstated proposal to be a panacea, but I'm not convinced.

It is a good thing, then, that the merits of my proposal do not hinge upon your feelings.

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I think it's a lot of handwave, and that you haven't worked out in the details what this might look like in practice for a given frame. Because if you do that, and then consider what it would look like when someone with less foresight than you tried the same, shipped it, and didn't fix it for three years unless it needed a nerf, I honestly think the problems wouldn't look significantly different from how they look now.

So my system would be terribly implemented if someone implemented it terribly? Who woulda thunk? Also, what makes you think I'm just handwaving everything? Have you given this any deeper thought? By all means, humor me, and give any sort of specific example to justify that kind of paranoid accusation.

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Well, mods are right now both the thing we reorganize and fuss around for specific problems in endgame (or in the case of impossibly boring people, copy builds from YouTube videos for) and the thing that represents the linear progression that happens all the way up to that point. So unless the gear check that is damage scaling also goes away (and again, that's not for gameplay, it's keeping the lights on) you either need mods to facilitate that, or you need a replacement system for converting grind into access. It's not remotely the only such system in the game, but it's a big one. As long as that's the case, some mods will be boring scaling numbers with no gameplay value.

Okay, but this is also a clear example of why I'm not promising a panacea here, because enemy scaling is an entire problem by itself that needs to be addressed, whether or not one reworks our mods. Problem is, because as you said our modding is inherently balanced around us dealing with those kinds of scaling enemies, the two are intimately tied together: remove or rework enemy scaling without altering our current mods, and the game becomes completely trivial. Alter our mods to no longer turn us into gods, and suddenly we lose our tools to bypass an enemy scaling system that is itself fundamentally broken. I don't actually believe in implementing linear progression in Warframe, as I think our greatest, most enjoyable, and longest-lasting progress comes from the different frames and weapons we add to our arsenal (horizontal power, rather than vertical power), but it is an obvious fact that our current state of modding, as well as warframe design, weapon design, etc., is built to lean against enemy scaling, and that changing one will require altering the other. Considering this is a fact I've never denied, I don't understand why you'd invent the narrative that I'd be "handwaving" any complicating factors or the limitations of my proposal in comprehensively addressing Warframe's problems. Since the beginning, I've always argued that my proposal would be a specific rework for a specific purpose, which is the case given that modding is but one of the game's many systems.

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And I do think that losing whole abilities in a given build is a less good thing than the alternative. In this case, though, it's the base ability that's useless without modding for it, and that's exactly equally a possibility in Mods 2.0. It obviously couldn't take four mods to get that DR in Mods 2.0, but it wouldn't if Nova had had a rework since the nineteenth century, either.

But this isn't true either, because the problem often comes not simply from deficient abilities, but from minimizing them in favor of maxing others. Trinity's Link is a decent ability unmodded, for example, but back when her EV build was still a thing, it sucked on that build because any kind of duration-based ability will suck when you're at 13% duration. Perhaps abilities would still suck if they're innately deficient (which I don't need to care about, because that's not in the scope of what I'm proposing), but unlike stat-based modding, my system would not be innately conducive to that, as it would not rely upon dumping on certain abilities to make others stronger.

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The thing that's nice about Corrupted mods, especially in light of where they fall in the linear progression aspect of the game, is that they really start to exaggerate the differences between how frames build against each other and what their respective numbers mean. It gives them a lot more individual personality, whether superficially or more fundamentally. You know, this is the point at which Mesa becomes an absolute spammer and Nova emphatically doesn't, but the nature of her Null Star completely changes, etc. - honestly, that kind of thing is what I'd really hope for out of this skill untree idea. If Mods 2.0 could capture that and make more of it, have more of the kinds of changes where one aspect of an ability is downplayed to focus on something else even more useful or interesting, it could make for a much more interesting progression.  

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, because imo Corrupted mods have absolutely zero personality with how cookie-cutter builds around them are. They do exaggerate differences between frames, but only along predefined lines, and the only reason they stand out is because before them, modding our frames was an extremely boring case of giving ourselves minor increases to all of our stats. I certainly want a modding system that lets us focus on certain aspects of our play, but having it dump on other abilities to do so is precisely what leads to dead abilities, and less diversity overall.

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There's an awful lot wrong here. Like, I didn't ... say I was defining the goal toward which you're optimizing, so reading comprehension, whatever?

Speaking of reading comprehension, failing to define the goal one optimizes for is precisely what I am faulting you for, so thank you for restating my point. Because the nature of the goal is relevant to what kind of optimization one is trying to achieve, it falls upon you to give specifics on what constitutes such a goal. Again, for someone demanding undue amounts of detail of others, your own arguments are particularly nebulous.

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But we've established that you really want me to be defensive of something, so I'm going to say that if you don't enjoy the problem-solving aspect of building or understand the satisfaction of sorting out one of the little puzzles it periodically creates when a new necessity or a new tool comes along, then this is, indeed, the point at which I'd ask you to get your grimy mitts the hell out of my game. 

I'm sorry, what problem-solving goes on in the current modding system? As you yourself said, people just copy builds off of YouTube, and ultimately there is no diversity to modding because the current modding system lends itself to only a small number of hyper-optimized builds. This is a problem inherent to the modding system that can only be changed with a rework. By contrast, what I am proposing would in fact encourage creative problem-solving, because it would set a greater number of possible optimization goals to aim towards than just "max out this stat". Perhaps, instead of puffing yourself up on the internet, and flexing your gatekeeper muscles as if you were somehow the sole player in Warframe, you could perhaps take a look at at least one or two other games, so to bring some perspective to your tunnel-vision defensiveness here. Wizard of Legend, for example, has its own "modding" system where the player gets to equip relics each with some sort of mechanic, and the result is a phenomenal amount of build diversity (that is, in fact, the game's core selling point). It even has the equivalent of Corrupted mods. Because these customization features aren't simply about making some abilities dead and others overpowered, and instead focus on enhancing or adding mechanics, the end result is an incredible diversity of gameplay with an arsenal far smaller than Warframe's. Not saying we should just copy-paste a system from another game, just that we shouldn't uphold the status quo out of the wrongful assumption that any alternative would automatically be worse.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Teridax68

[Benour]

I never heard anyone from my friends list or clan or twitch streams or ANYONE with half brain crying over armor being such issue (yeh the RJ mobs are beefy so what, kill them or CC them or ignore them i see no frikking issue with that.)

I just hope they nerf the scaling to ground and literally kill their own game for good, so some lemmings can have "more fun" in their easy mode game. Btw its the same lemmings that were crying over Wolf of Saturn being "bane of their existence". Just pathetic.  😽

 

[CopperBezel]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Perhaps, instead of puffing yourself up on the internet, and flexing your gatekeeper muscles as if you were somehow the sole player in Warframe, you could perhaps take a look at at least one or two other games, so to bring some perspective to your tunnel-vision defensiveness here. 

Well, my patience for the projection is at an end, and as you've said, I have indeed spoken my piece to you. Not to say I won't humor further suggestions if you can muster a third specific example, but I'm done going in circles. Just going to put this simply one last time: There's no reason to believe that turning mods into a bespoke skill untree will make the task of balance any easier, therefore it doesn't address the problem, and I don't think the reason you're attached to it has anything to do with the problem you're concerned with. 

[Teridax68]

12 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, my patience for the projection is at an end, and as you've said, I have indeed spoken my piece to you.

This:

19 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

if you don't enjoy the problem-solving aspect of building or understand the satisfaction of sorting out one of the little puzzles it periodically creates when a new necessity or a new tool comes along, then this is, indeed, the point at which I'd ask you to get your grimy mitts the hell out of my game. 

Is not projection. Warframe is not "your game" any more than it is mine, and you don't get to determine the validity of others' experiences with the game, even though ultimately your gatekeeping here has strictly no relevance to the matter being discussed.

12 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Not to say I won't humor further suggestions if you can muster a third specific example, but I'm done going in circles. Just going to put this simply one last time: There's no reason to believe that turning mods into a bespoke skill untree will make the task of balance any easier, therefore it doesn't address the problem,

Did you not yourself admit that it would?

19 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

it's a dimension of wiggle room - where the Mods 2.0 skill untree would honestly have a higher bar for success to pass. Maybe easier to balance things, still quite a lot of work to make it happen and a bit more expectation to work out-of-the-box.

Inconsistent argumentation aside, not only are you wrong, you are in wilful denial of prior argumentation, yet again because it's been pointed out that one of the key reasons our warframes are out of control is because of a stat-based mod system that encourages min-maxing abilities past their breaking point, and that a system that would avoid that would already make for better balance. Add to the fact that the examples of mods I'd want to have more of in this system, e.g. Gale Kick, Rolling Guard, the Aero/Motus/Proton set mods, etc., are in absolutely no way controversial, and there is clear evidence supporting the merits of my proposal, which would in fact directly address the problem as stated, namely that of our customization being lacking in diversity and conducive to broken expressions of power with often a degradation in gameplay.

12 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

and I don't think the reason you're attached to it has anything to do with the problem you're concerned with. 

Once again, because you are in blatant, wilful denial of the problem at hand. By your own admission, you don't want ability mods to change, therefore they cannot possibly have any problems, and anything that even implies that a problem exists there is automatically wrong. You are correct that we are going in circles, because you are refusing at all costs to move discussion forward precisely on those grounds. The only thing you have managed to successfully express in the paragraphs upon paragraphs you've added to this thread is that you don't want ability mods to change, which is fine... except no-one else has any reason to agree with you, or care. Ability mods are objectively not in good shape, and your marked defensiveness over them does not invalidate discussion there is to be had about what problems are tied to them, and how those could be addressed via changes to the modding system.

[keikogi]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

o me it makes more sense to frame it as a problem with armor strip and ignore, I.e. with those three damage types or statuses. I mean, the armor scaling wouldn't matter past a certain point if we couldn't reasonably get there. It's the fact we're given very specific tools that allow us to force into absurdly high levels that's the problem, and even that's a problem specifically because the main content of the game has slowly worked its way up that latter and we're stuck with these compensatory gimmicks as the only way to play.

And it does seem very odd for DE to make the same mistake twice. Corrosive annoys me the most, since it gets the same 3/4 armor ignore, 75% damage boost on Ferrite that Radiation gets on Alloy, and then also has stacking armor strip.

The problem doea not lie on us being able to ignore armor , it lies on DE refusing to just use health and shield scaling as the main sorce of EHP. If health and shields were the main sorce of EHP we would not have the paper Mario X final fantasy problem already described. 

Also armor has a lot of issues of its own. Itss double dipping nature , super effective damage type both ignore a portion of the armor and ignore a hige portion of the armor. The inverse is Also true less efective damage time "increase " the armor and them deal less damage. This couponding effects make some damage types worthless ( blast damage says hi ). At last armor has the odd effect of effectively creating a unique scaling curve for each amored enemy a butcher is always made of paper because of his low base armor but a bombard gets way tankier because his hight base armor just mutiplies futher and futher his high base health. On the other hand a comba always has around 7.5 times the EHP of crewman.

Armor also is quite backwards in the way it resist to damage , considering how hard is to cut metal one would expect that slash sucks agaist armor but slash procs make slash the best damage type agaist armor. Same aplies to alloy armor , in real life the way he currently contain radiation is to just place thick enough plate of heavy metal ot thick enought slab of concrete so one would expect that alloy is resistent to radiation and flesh is melted by radiation but it does not work like that at all. The third example is the way you deal with armor in real life is delivering so much duck you on single round that the armor cannot with stand it , once again in warframe armor works on the precisely oposite manner and the best way to overwhelm armor is death by a thousand of corrosive procs.

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Pet peeve of mine on immunity to armor strip, by the way: why on Earth wouldn't you just use an enormous health pool? If the armor can't be stripped by any means, it's a flat multiplier to health. All you get from armor that doesn't strip is even more inconsistent level scaling and even more cheese from those armor class modifiers on Corrosive and Radiation.

Not pet at all, it  is huge problem. 

 

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

This is probably true. I've reached a point with both Mesa and Khora where I've got their builds just right and found all the funky loopholes and they're just their most perfect selves, and ... I just can't actually play them for very long without wanting to switch to a weaker frame. And then when some new big thing comes along in the game, I end up having to do it with Nezha because it's a tanking challenge where offensive abilities don't even work. So my best frames linger in the "I can play these when I'm feeling really lazy"

Yep.

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Meanwhile, new Ember is a weaker Saryn with a smaller range, and she's bloody great fun. She's got a counter to manage and obscenely powerful armor strip and a radial banhammer button all like Saryn, even comes with the same 1 augment, but she's gotta work for it all and it's fun to do.

True. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by keikogi

[marceloooo]

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe is in a situation where you're playing Final Fantasy most of the time, but sometimes drop into Paper Mario. At the end of the day, it's arbitrary if everything is brought up to Final Fantasy or brought down to Paper Mario - as long as the entire game is in the same ballpark, then it really doesn't matter, because experientially, it will be the same.

Of course it matters, because if all is brought to "Paper Mario" level then it is too dull and easy. Which the game already is for the most part, but they are taking the one thing that makes it sometimes interesting away(or take longer to ramp up in case of scaling)

I get what you're saying, but you are considering we will magically have all systems in the "same ballpark", but we won't. It would require a major revamp of how damage/defenses/mods/warframes interact, and we won't get that. Not for the longest time(or ever).

It would be much healthier for the game to bring other factions to the level of grineer instead, because it makes it more challenging and it is much less work because you already have all systems in place to deal with all factions defenses.

[CopperBezel]

@Teridax68, nothing I'm saying is preventing anyone else from responding to you. You are free to "move forward" with whatever you'd like to discuss. Much as I've in fact asked you to do, by illustrating more specifically what you have in mind. No one is preventing you from discussing how you might address problems by changes to the mod system. 

I understand that you've proven to yourself that you are objectively correct to your own satisfaction. Don't be too surprised if that doesn't automatically mean that all others are convinced.  

I'm not going to get into any of the other rhetorical fluff, it's a waste of time and you and I both know it. 

[ScarecroM]

On 2020-01-26 at 9:41 AM, zephyr_infinity said:

fun is subjective, *you* might have more fun with changes like this but that's not necessarily true for everyone or even the majority. Any sort of change like this has to be very slowly rolled out and closely monitored to ensure it doesn't cause massive player drop off. The issue being that all of the games systems based around combat are precariously balanced on a knife tip altering any one to any great degree can send the whole game crashing down. Are Nuke frames really a problem? I don't really feel that they are, the games style and systems all push that play style and making things less efficient can make the game significantly less fun for large parts of the population.

Fun is subjective, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Even if it is opinionated, I think there is a huge flaw in the game's design as a multiplayer game when one person is able to single-handedly kill 90% of the enemies with no support from their teammates. Granted you can play alone. but the game actively encourages... well, bottlenecks you really into playing multiplayer with the affinity boosts from other players being the majority of the XP you earn for equipment. The game wants you to play with other people But what's the point in playing if one person is going to mindlessly spam 4, and remove any semblance of gameplay from their teammates? What are the teammates supposed to even do while one person is doing this? I don't think area nukes are an absolute issue, I certainly think for some frames it's too easy, and something needs to change. I don't think the OP's solution is a good solution, as it affects all warframes, but there is some merit to their issue. Players should not be allowed to hog all the kills from their teammates and be able to endlessly sustain it independently. 

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

@Teridax68, nothing I'm saying is preventing anyone else from responding to you. You are free to "move forward" with whatever you'd like to discuss. Much as I've in fact asked you to do, by illustrating more specifically what you have in mind. No one is preventing you from discussing how you might address problems by changes to the mod system. 

Okay, so first off, explain to me why you went from this:

11 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, my patience for the projection is at an end, and as you've said, I have indeed spoken my piece to you. 

To trying to have the last word? Have you spoken your piece or have you not? I am indeed free to move forward regardless of how you respond, so I fail to understand why you would engage in this kind of repetitious argument, because if the intent was to deter me from participating any further, it clearly hasn't worked. Also, let's not pretend that your sealioning here is any sort of genuine invitation to deeper discussion -- you're not talking to me out of curiosity for what I have in mind, because you already have your mind made up already, and haven't bothered to pay attention even to the basics of what I suggested, let alone specific examples which I also listed. You're just looking for excuses to argue, and when you don't find any, you make them up. You even flat-out admitted to doing this, as if it were something to be proud of.

Thing is, I would actually love to elaborate more on my proposal, because I genuinely believe in it and have given it some thought long before this thread even appeared. I would love to talk about how I'd like to give each ability their own mod table, something current stat-based modding doesn't allow, because it would allow us to give each of our abilities more individual expression and tradeoffs that don't involve ever turning them off entirely. I'd love to talk about how I'd personally like to experiment with a system in which there were no slot restrictions, and mods could be ranked up or down at will so as to be able to maximize our fine-tuning, and not have to forgo weaker, yet interesting mods when making space for big power boosters. I'd love to elaborate on how already mods like Rolling Guard, Vigorous Swap, and other mechanics-based mods have managed to meaningfully enhance gameplay without breaking the game, i.e. the complete opposite of stat-based ability mods, and how many examples exist across many games of mechanics one could add in this manner that just don't boil down to raw increases in damage or EHP. Problem is, that's not something that's going to be easy to discuss with you, because you've worked very hard against any sort of productive discussion: you're not genuinely interested in the details, and when given them you simply do not care, and instead fall back to pretending there's no problem with ability mods, that my proposal is wrong by default, and so regardless of specifics you nonetheless insist upon me producing (which specifics, specifically? What are you actually curious to know more about?).

Quote

I understand that you've proven to yourself that you are objectively correct to your own satisfaction. Don't be too surprised if that doesn't automatically mean that all others are convinced.

But I'm not telling me or anyone else that my proposal is objectively correct; I'm merely pointing out that it's a fact that ability mods are directly responsible for our abilities reaching ranges, durations, efficiency, and raw power that far exceed healthy levels, to the point where it's become impossible for the game to challenge us, to say nothing of how such a stat-based framework constrains warframe and ability design as a whole. Mine is but one set of suggestions out of many possibilities, and while I do have examples to support the soundness of my system, there are almost certainly better alternatives. All of them, though, I believe will involve reworking our modding system, including ability mods, and that is the detail you refuse to accept. You have so far produced absolutely no argument in your defense of this, other than repeated insistence that you think ability mods are great, that there's nothing wrong with them, and that you hate the mere idea of altering them in any way. The one counter-proposal you gave was to rework every warframe to bend around this stat system, a suggestion as ludicrously complex as it is backwards, as it advocates to redo the game's main attraction to the benefit of some secondary subsystem, when it is the latter that is meant to serve (and thus mold around) the former.

Quote

I'm not going to get into any of the other rhetorical fluff, it's a waste of time and you and I both know it. 

That did not stop you from posting an equally pointless reply, one that fatally undermines the solidity of your position, when your previous comment seemingly made it clear it would be your last in this argument. If you are actually willing to have a constructive discussion on the matter, one in which you are willing to truly listen, and not react with immediate defensiveness, I'd be happy to have it, and as you can see from the above I would in fact love to elaborate on the specifics, and discuss them honestly. If you're not, why respond at all?

Edited January 31, 2020 by Teridax68

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

[Exodess]

The problem with Warframe is infinite scaling -- there are no ceilings to build under, and this is a BIG problem. The issue is most evident with infinite scaling on enemies, and thereby drives that same approach for players.

[selig_fay]

42 минуты назад, Exodess сказал:

The problem with Warframe is infinite scaling -- there are no ceilings to build under, and this is a BIG problem. er, and this is a BIG problem. The issue is most evident with infinite scaling on enemies, and thereby drives that same approach for players.

9999 lvl - This is the maximum. +50 lvl for eximus. Someone said that a 9999 bomber deals 2 million damage per missile. I think the wiki has all the information about this.

There are only two problems. The 150 bomber has armor that gives 98% DR and you can't actually use anything other than corrosion or slash. The second thing is the actual oneshot of most frames at the 200 level. This two problems are scaling. It's not even about the 1000 level. 200 LVL mobs - this is actually actual content now.

[keikogi]

15 minutes ago, zhellon said:

9999 lvl - This is the maximum. +50 lvl for eximus. Someone said that a 9999 bomber deals 2 million damage per missile. I think the wiki has all the information about this.

There are only two problems. The 150 bomber has armor that gives 98% DR and you can't actually use anything other than corrosion or slash. The second thing is the actual oneshot of most frames at the 200 level. This two problems are scaling. It's not even about the 1000 level. 200 LVL mobs - this is actually actual content now.

Warframe damage system is just silly as whole. Both defense and offense have to many compounding mutipliers. It is sily that a somewhat common enemy ( bombard ) might spawn with 98% damage reduction but it is also silly thr fact that player thought multiple compunding damage modifiers can cause so much damage that ot cause a stack overflow and the number display wrongly ( banshee build can do that and it silly isn't it ).

[eboomer]

I think the OP is wrong on at least a couple of points.

A) I can't think of one single build that is both max strength and max range, like you suggest everybody uses (setting aside the point that Overextended makes a build NOT max strength).  This is because max. power strength takes up a LOT of build space, and if anything you then want some efficiency and/or duration (because of Blind Rage and Transient Fortitude).

B) A 20% or 30% reduction wouldn't do much.  My ~300% power strength builds would be come ~250%.  So about a 16% multiplicative reduction.  Similar numbers for max range builds.  The meta wouldn't really change, but if you actually looked at the damage numbers, etc, you would see that they are smaller.  But I suspect that if they did nerf it as you suggest, if anything it would just make strength and range MORE important, because you need more of those mods to do the same thing you could before.

So basically, it's a solution that won't work, to a problem that doesn't exist.

[CopperBezel]

Yeah, the killers are efficiency + range. A single range mod tends to do much more than a single strength mod, especially in the very common case that strength is only really affecting damage, so you can throw in Umbral Intensify and Transient Fortitude and be just shy of doubling your damage at the cost of two slots and most of your duration. With range, 45% radius is doubling the area covered, and that's one mod.

4 hours ago, keikogi said:

Warframe damage system is just silly as whole. Both defense and offense have to many compounding mutipliers. It is sily that a somewhat common enemy ( bombard ) might spawn with 98% damage reduction but it is also silly thr fact that player thought multiple compunding damage modifiers can cause so much damage that ot cause a stack overflow and the number display wrongly ( banshee build can do that and it silly isn't it ).

Yeah. And like you've said, armor as a primary source of eHP has a lot of problems. It even breaks things like Syndicate augments and damage abilities that release an AoE on death based on health - use one of those on one of two mooks standing next to each other, and whether it kills the second guy or is completely ignored is based entirely on whether most of his health comes from armor.

I understand why the game has the absurd exponential scaling it does, and it's all about the linear progression to endgame content. Players are given a number of different ways to increase the effectiveness of their gear. They can neglect some of their options and still be fully capable of playing at sortie levels, and they'll be able to see and feel their frames getting more powerful as they go. So far so good. It's nice to move from a Braton all the way up to a Tiberon Prime or Acceltra while seeing abilities we used to have to ration out as ults for special occasions become a part of the normal rhythm of a given frame's combat. 

Unfortunately, a lot of that linear progression is also just by enemy level, the most visible aspect of which is just multiplying durability and damage. Not ideal, since it means that we have no real sense of how tough a Crewman or a Commander is, and whether or not something is a thread depends on the mission level; it's possible to shoot a random mook in the face with a grenade and have no visible effect, take the same hit with the same no-sell reaction with our frames, etc. And equally unfortunately, once you've got to the endgame content that still really stops around level 110-120, you still have those neglected progression tracks to catch up on, which you rapidly do by playing content that's no longer scaling against you and is becoming increasingly trivial. 

The general shift from cover shooter at MR5 to space wizard simulator at MR15, and having to depend on more things in more layers of combination to survive while facing increasingly numerous hordes of enemies with more special conditions or special units, that's all a good progression. The bread and butter at the bottom is DPS, though, and that's just a scale number representing access. I completely understand why it has to be, but the side effects, whether it's bullet sponge enemies that ignore your abilities and just take more or less time to kill based on that DPS access level number, or not being able to think of a Nox as tanky without appending a level to the name, etc. (and needing to raise that level again next week.) So as a result, a lot of things are made trivial or designed as dull gear-check slogs that wouldn't otherwise need to be. 

I have no earthly idea what I'd want to try to do about any of that, but I understand why all of these things that have to be built on top of that foundation have problems.

Edited February 1, 2020 by CopperBezel

[keikogi]

5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

have no earthly idea what I'd want to try to do about any of that, but I understand why all of these things that have to be built on top of that foundation have problems.

Warframe has what I would call survival scars. Warframe did not have the time to properly think out its damage , progression and enemy desing. Neither at had enought time to properly desing warframes and enemies. Warframe always had to move forward regardeless of was behind. 

How to fix this mess. The same way I fix every mess. One step at time.

First you adreess enemy desing creating strong enemy units that have both unique strengths and weaknesses. Make some medix unit capable of purging cc but has a sound cue and small delay on the purge. Make a unit the carries a hufe frontal shield that impedes aoe damage to come through , but allow the player to just kick down the shield with " gale kick " or jist jump up and kill the shield carrier or just flank the ahield carrier since a unite with frontal damage resistance should have limited turn rate.

Them you would go foward and try to change the damafe system. DE is slowly doing this one ( fire damage rework and possible armor scaling curve ajustment ). But I have feeling they are nkt willing to dive deep enought.  A bit of a side point but weapon switch speed is a big culprit in the lack of weapon diversity because your build can't have a situational weakness because realistically speaking you can switch weapons mid combat becaise in warframe switching weapons reduces your brust Dps. 

After all that , you would begin to adress harder and more paintfull topics such as moding , energy economy and warframe desing. The worse part about these is because you can't really make a big change on 1 without making big changes on ther other two as well.