(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: But it's not just Railjack being busted, though, Except that it is. Railjack's new damage formula goes off completely different formula then what players are used to. Do you know what the new railjack elements are? What the procs do? I certainly don't. My achwing weapon that was doing just fine in a raid against level 80+ enemies, or against orb mother's was doing just fine in the normal game, and worked in ways that I could understand it. Yet the moment I jump into my railjack with t3 weapons, and void hole, everything starts to die in one shot like I'm used to. Railjack isn't a good example of your point when it selectively works like you describe, then completely counters your argument later. Also, if you are going to talk to two people, make it two different posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Except that it is. Railjack's new damage formula goes off completely different formula then what players are used to. Do you know what the new railjack elements are? What the procs do? I certainly don't. My achwing weapon that was doing just fine in a raid against level 80+ enemies, or against orb mother's was doing just fine in the normal game, and worked in ways that I could understand it. Yet the moment I jump into my railjack with t3 weapons, and void hole, everything starts to die in one shot like I'm used to. Railjack isn't a good example of your point when it selectively works like you describe, then completely counters your argument later. Also, if you are going to talk to two people, make it two different posts. Please just read the post in full, instead of jumping on a handful of words and responding to those out of context. It's not just Railjack because Railjack's scalings are not new. We've had a similar problem with Elite Terra units dealing far too much damage for their indicated level, and we've similarly had problem with armor-based bullet sponges in the past, as you yourself pointed out. I do in fact know what the Railjack elements are, and I can assure you the new damage/proc system is not in fact all that new or relevant to Railjack's scaling problems, which is also why DE halved enemy armor a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, so first off, "agree to disagree" makes strictly no sense in this context. Whether or not gameplay ceases to function according to its intended design past a certain configuration of numbers is a question of fact, not opinion, and it is not even a fact we are disagreeing with, as you too are pointing out that scaling does become an issue. You and I have naturally contradicting views about Warframe. Agree to disagree makes total sense as I see warframe as an MMORPG akin to World of Warcraft of Final Fantasy. A key part of MMO's is that as expansions come out, you fight stronger and stronger enemies. Surprise, Enemies scale in those games. A level 50 enemy in those games, doesn't have half the health a level 60 version does. And the level 70 version has twice the health then the previous version. I don't see scaling as an issue unless the enemies are so difficult to the point that it makes progression in the game impossible. I see scaling as proof of growth, and progress. On the star chart, the enemies get slightly harder as you progress, then continue as you get sorties, rivens and other abilities. This makes perfect sense as players enjoy something resembling difficulty. The lowest typical mission I do is Hydron to level gear, otherwise I'm doing sorties, arbitrations, kuva floods, etc. Cause nothing else is a challenge. My rivens, warframe abilities and guns scale to a point that I consider any enemy from level 1 to level 40 tier 1, or baby tier. Tier 2 is 41-70. Tier 3 would be 71-130. and t4 is any enemy above 130+. (The tier system comes from back when prime weapons came from void keys with different tiers. Tier 3 and 4 were the hardest, and had corrupted vor as a mini boss. Now corrupted vor is a joke and dies nameless compared to when he was first introduced) This is coming from a person who remembers when the Soma and the boltor prime where the best weapons in the game and people would argue between status and crit. While those guns are still good guns, new content has come out and those guns don't compare to some of the newer weapons. So do not misunderstand. Scaling isn't an issue from me, unless the enemies have scaled past what players can deal with. The casual player might want things easier, or might need some help growing stronger, but the tools that are at the players disposal vastly overshadow the strength of most enemies encountered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Please just read the post in full, instead of jumping on a handful of words and responding to those out of context. It's not just Railjack because Railjack's scalings are not new. We've had a similar problem with Elite Terra units dealing far too much damage for their indicated level, and we've similarly had problem with armor-based bullet sponges in the past, as you yourself pointed out. I do in fact know what the Railjack elements are, and I can assure you the new damage/proc system is not in fact all that new or relevant to Railjack's scaling problems, which is also why DE halved enemy armor a while back. Na. You made a wall of posts that I have to check the context for your reply, So I read what you quoted me, read what you say then reply back. Not my fault you replied to two different people in a nigh unreadable wall of text that makes any real conversation impossible. You might have a problem with elite tera units, But I just finished a session of one shotting them for a farm so I can get my intrinsics up. The only enemies in Rail jack that I find to be a bullet sponge are the space ships in rail jack when you are using archwing. Rail jack is the newest content, I expect it to be part of the most difficult. In my previous posts when I talk about rail jack, I have never been talking about the grineer troops. Only the ships and rail jacks weird damage system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You and I have naturally contradicting views about Warframe. Agree to disagree makes total sense as I see warframe as an MMORPG akin to World of Warcraft of Final Fantasy. Okay, but the subject of discussion has no basis in that, as explained already, so it makes no sense to "agree to disagree" here any more than it would on the subject of whether two plus two equals four. We're not even disagreeing on the topic either, which is the most bizarre aspect of this conflict you're trying to force. Quote A key part of MMO's is that as expansions come out, you fight stronger and stronger enemies. Surprise, Enemies scale in those games. A level 50 enemy in those games, doesn't have half the health a level 60 version does. And the level 70 version has twice the health then the previous version. I don't see scaling as an issue unless the enemies are so difficult to the point that it makes progression in the game impossible. I see scaling as proof of growth, and progress. On the star chart, the enemies get slightly harder as you progress, then continue as you get sorties, rivens and other abilities. This makes perfect sense as players enjoy something resembling difficulty. The lowest typical mission I do is Hydron to level gear, otherwise I'm doing sorties, arbitrations, kuva floods, etc. Cause nothing else is a challenge. My rivens, warframe abilities and guns scale to a point that I consider any enemy from level 1 to level 40 tier 1, or baby tier. Tier 2 is 41-70. Tier 3 would be 71-130. and t4 is any enemy above 130+. (The tier system comes from back when prime weapons came from void keys with different tiers. Tier 3 and 4 were the hardest, and had corrupted vor as a mini boss. Now corrupted vor is a joke and dies nameless compared to when he was first introduced) This is coming from a person who remembers when the Soma and the boltor prime where the best weapons in the game and people would argue between status and crit. While those guns are still good guns, new content has come out and those guns don't compare to some of the newer weapons. So do not misunderstand. Scaling isn't an issue from me, unless the enemies have scaled past what players can deal with. The casual player might want things easier, or might need some help growing stronger, but the tools that are at the players disposal vastly overshadow the strength of most enemies encountered. "This game needs to do X because other games do X" is not a particularly smart argument to make, particularly since those MMOs are notorious for having problems due to their own leveling model as well (namely, actual endgame content tends to be restricted to a minuscule portion of the entire in-game map unless some special mechanic is introduced to level up older enemies). It also fundamentally misunderstands the very purpose of leveling: those games level up players and enemies not to create difficulty, but a sense of progression, so that the player feels their character is growing as they play. Levels were never meant to be the player's main source of challenge to begin with, which is why they continue to fail to provide a real challenge to this day. Quote You might have a problem with elite tera units, But I just finished a session of one shotting them for a farm so I can get my intrinsics up. The only enemies in Rail jack that I find to be a bullet sponge are the space ships in rail jack when you are using archwing. Rail jack is the newest content, I expect it to be part of the most difficult. In my previous posts when I talk about rail jack, I have never been talking about the grineer troops. Only the ships and rail jacks weird damage system. I strictly do not care about your attempts at bragging about how you personally apparently never encountered any difficulty with X; the fact remains that Elite Terra units were heavily complained about, as are Grineer crew units in Railjack, on top of ships. In both cases, it was because their stats are out of whack, in a manner that clearly didn't reflect their indicated level, and is often detrimental to play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 24 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Pretty much, though in both cases I think there's also something to be said about pushing the limit until content just becomes so intense that one eventually loses the nerve to go on, as opposed to going past that limit and having combat break completely. I think it could be tremendously fun if Warframe were able to exert some fine enough control over its difficulty such that the player would be pushed in a situation where any mistake could mean failure, but would still be able to keep going on if they play excellently. Oh, definitely. Whether that's really possible in a game that has the linear level scaling and range of player ability that this one does is an open question, but I'd say that what you're describing is little more or less than "doing challenge right". 24 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: It just means that it's probably not great if our one-of-a-kind warframes get outperformed by some mass-produced clone or robot. [...] When left unchallenged, these effects tend to make content trivial regardless of enemy stats, which is also why enemies over time have had ability resistance, status resistance/immunity, ability nullification, etc. added to their kits, to a great detriment in our agency. This is also one of the reasons why I'd like to tackle our ability stats, because I'd rather have a game in which we couldn't kill enemies we're sometimes not even aware of, but also didn't have our ability to move and act constrained, not even by enemy hard CC, which I also consider to be a cheap form of artificial difficulty. [...] Similarly, our abilities were originally meant to be balanced around some kind of meaningful cost that meant we couldn't use them with 100% uptime, but thanks to evolutions in the Energy economy, which Efficiency mods contributed significantly towards, 100% uptime is pretty much the norm, which also means 100% uptime on effects that grant some sort of immunity to enemies entirely, e.g. invisibility, invulnerability, and so on. Part of this is going to come to taste. I like how this feels right now, that many frames are innately pretty fragile but have magical DR or healing that they have to keep up and that can be dispelled in the right (wrong) circumstances. Meanwhile, some abilities are just "moves" or attacks that have to come cheap if they're going to make any sense - spamming Whipclaw is not inherently different from spamming bullets. And a lot of abilities depend heavily on uptime for their mechanics, anything to do with stack building etc. So yeah, from my perspective, these are features, not bugs. The difference between 90% DR with 100% uptime on the one hand and just taking 1/10 as much damage on the other is that the former is going to require a little management and can come with caveats. Right now, it also works with the linear build of the game, since early on, you didn't have 100% uptime with it and had to save it for special occasions, but now you need it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Okay sure, but we were given this anti-scaling scaling precisely because it's how players wanted to combat enemy scaling. Doubt it. Infinite scaling has been part of players arsenal and enemies alike for quite some time now. Viral procs have scaled infinitely since damage 2.0 Octavia isn't intended to scale infinitely, she just does. Revenant was probably designed to have his one ability scale infinitely, but there have been hints of infinite scaling like that since long long ago. Old covert lethality comes to mind, that instantly killed anything like a ninja!!!!!!! Other examples exist, like how an old version of Nyx could pair up with another nyx and feed off each other to nuke for infinite upon infinite amount of damage that became an un-losable situation. An immortal nyx that could not be damaged, and could infinitely kill enemies no matter what. The bottom part of your question is simple. Yes its an arms race. Who's going to win? a level 1 enemy or a level 30 warframe? It's an MMO. Typically the highest level enemy in an mmo is the hardest to kill. It's part of the progression of the game, where you start low, and kill things like lady bugs in other mmos, then progress up to demons. Your argument that scaling shouldn't exist is a laughable one. You can voice that in your opinion enemy armor scales too high in certain regards, and that's fine. But no enemy scaling at all would make this game lose every and all intrigue. There would be no point to get new weapons or stronger gear anymore or mod after a certain point cause you'd already be insta killing every enemy forever with no threat of losing on the horizon. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, but the subject of discussion has no basis in that, as explained already, so it makes no sense to "agree to disagree" Except that if you actually read what I said, and the context of what you said, it makes sense. Since you can't figure it out for yourself, On 2020-02-01 at 1:53 PM, Teridax68 said: The point is that we inevitably reach a threshold with enemy scaling past which gameplay breaks down completely. On 2020-02-01 at 4:24 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Agree to disagree. Cause Enemies is any non survival mission hardly scale. Until there is a mission node that starts players off with corrupted enemies at level 140+ the scaling is a non issue. I don't agree that gameplay breaks down completely. I have seen warframes go hours in survival and fight enemies who's level are in the thousands. I have gotten half way to seeing a level 1,000 enemy in a survival myself. (level 600 was the best I could do solo,) I'm waiting for enemies to exist in the game that make it impossible for me to defeat, or render a mission impossible. After killing glitched enemies as high level as you can go, and seeing how powerful enemies need to be to stop us and pose a threat? Scaling is the only thing that stops people from making warframe a cookie clicker game where you mindlessly gather resources from enemies that don't pose a threat. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: "This game needs to do X because other games do X" is not a particularly smart argument to make, particularly since those MMOs are notorious for having problems due to their own leveling model as well (namely, actual endgame content tends to be restricted to a minuscule portion of the entire in-game map unless some special mechanic is introduced to level up older enemies). Wrong. Do you play MMO's? MMO's keep people interested and playing by adding new and more difficult content. It's not about what other games do, its about "What do we do, to keep the game interesting?" Guess how WoW, Final Fantasy, Destiny 1 + 2, Warframe, and Diablo all answered that question. They gave the players the ability to become more powerful, fight stronger enemies, and get new loot. Diablo even has infinite scaling dungeons, Destiny, WoW, Final Fantasy and Warframe all had raids as endgames intermittently. Shocker that end game in all these scenarios including Warframe tend to be restricted to a certain area. Almost like there is an endgame area, with endgame enemies. As of right now, the endgame enemies in Warframe are the ones that have been scaled up to be the hardest or most difficult. If you actually read your own comments, your arguments start to implode. Like how you mentioned MMOs are notorious for their own leveling models, while you complain about Warframe's leveling model.) 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: It also fundamentally misunderstands the very purpose of leveling: those games level up players and enemies not to create difficulty, but a sense of progression, so that the player feels their character is growing as they play. Levels were never meant to be the player's main source of challenge to begin with, which is why they continue to fail to provide a real challenge to this day. Here is where your argument implodes. KABOOOOM. Progression in every form is tied to being able to accomplish more and more difficult tasks. For example, progressing in a math class lets you handle harder and harder math questions. I'll use pokemon as an easy example, if you ever played pokemon, progress revolves around battling, leveling up and evolving. As you level up, you will be able to fight and defeat stronger trainers and not only do you see the progression as your pokemon evolves, but you feel it as your pokemon has an easier time defeating lower level opponents. When you can fight or win a situation easily, that once gave you trouble? It feels like you have progressed. You grew stronger. You cannot have a sense of progression without increasing the difficulty. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: It is in fact your fault if you lack the attention span to be able to read a clearly-paragraphed response. It is not a particularly exotic mode of communication on these forums to quote someone and respond to their point immediately below, given that this is also something you're doing. I strictly do not care about your attempts at bragging about how you personally apparently never encountered any difficulty with X; the fact remains that Elite Terra units were heavily complained about, as are Grineer crew units in Railjack, on top of ships. In both cases, it was because their stats are out of whack, in a manner that clearly didn't reflect their indicated level, and is often detrimental to play. Yea, no dice. Has nothing to do with my attention span. I specifically mentioned that a wall of text with two different conversations between two different people gets muddled up where you lose the context of what's being said. We already know that your reading and understanding skills lack as you aren't self aware enough to read your own writing when somebody quotes you so you can understand what you are saying. Most people only address one person in their reply, and if they reply to two people they keep it short. Sorry you have such trouble with enemies that literally take more then a single moment to kill xD. I can recommend a build for you, if you want to one shot them with a hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, CopperBezel said: Part of this is going to come to taste. I like how this feels right now, that many frames are innately pretty fragile but have magical DR or healing that they have to keep up and that can be dispelled in the right (wrong) circumstances. Meanwhile, some abilities are just "moves" or attacks that have to come cheap if they're going to make any sense - spamming Whipclaw is not inherently different from spamming bullets. And a lot of abilities depend heavily on uptime for their mechanics, anything to do with stack building etc. So yeah, from my perspective, these are features, not bugs. The difference between 90% DR with 100% uptime on the one hand and just taking 1/10 as much damage on the other is that the former is going to require a little management and can come with caveats. Right now, it also works with the linear build of the game, since early on, you didn't have 100% uptime with it and had to save it for special occasions, but now you need it all the time. See, I actually fully agree that some abilities should not need constraints on uptime at all. I wrote this thread a while back proposing a rework to abilities that would completely remove Energy as a unified system, because some abilities as you said are meant to be spammable at no cost (which is fine), while others that do need limits aren't being limited adequately at all. Problem is, that's not what Energy is innately meant to do, nor what our abilities are designed around, so effectively our gating system has been bent out of shape to match more closely what players would consider fun gameplay (i.e. not being denied the use of life-saving abilities when they're most needed), but in the process allowing us to godmode the game via non-stop use of certain effects that remove interaction between us and enemies. Going back to earlier discussions, this I think is where I agree with you that warframes need comprehensive changes to their abilities, because balancing abilities around Energy limits has ceased to work for a very long time now, and DE has tried very hard to work around that with recent abilities (e.g. bespoke resources on Ember and Gauss, exponential Energy costs on Ember and Grendel), with mixed success. I personally don't think there's actually that much gameplay value in refreshing a 90% DR steroid or the like, because that usually tends to amount to busywork and taking one's attention off of gameplay to look at timers, when it'd probably be much more interesting to have more reactive defenses, or defense through superior agility, rather than some button to multiple one's EHP by a factor of ten or twenty. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Doubt it. Infinite scaling has been part of players arsenal and enemies alike for quite some time now. Viral procs have scaled infinitely since damage 2.0 Octavia isn't intended to scale infinitely, she just does. Revenant was probably designed to have his one ability scale infinitely, but there have been hints of infinite scaling like that since long long ago. Don't doubt it, because Vauban's Flechette Orb had that anti-scaling scaling added specifically in reaction to criticism that it served no purpose past a certain enemy level. DE has knowingly been giving us power that scales up against enemy scaling for quite some time now. Quote Your argument that scaling shouldn't exist is a laughable one. You can voice that in your opinion enemy armor scales too high in certain regards, and that's fine. But no enemy scaling at all would make this game lose every and all intrigue. There would be no point to get new weapons or stronger gear anymore or mod after a certain point cause you'd already be insta killing every enemy forever with no threat of losing on the horizon. But it is this very response that is laughable, because you are framing the acquisition of new frames and weapons as linear increases in power, which is really not how it works. We don't acquire most weapons or frames because they represent a straight-up power boost, we play them because they offer different gameplay, and different toolsets to use in our missions. This is why players will go for frames that aren't necessarily top-tier, and the same with weapons, because they genuinely enjoy their playstyles. Warframe is fundamentally not a game about becoming infinitely more powerful, it's a game about accumulating a wide variety of different tools and toys to play with. Removing enemy scaling would not invalidate this, nor has enemy scaling ever contributed positively at all to the acquisition of gear. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I don't agree that gameplay breaks down completely. I have seen warframes go hours in survival and fight enemies who's level are in the thousands. I have gotten half way to seeing a level 1,000 enemy in a survival myself. (level 600 was the best I could do solo,) Which is a breakdown in gameplay, because those runs rely entirely on cheese that removes interaction with the enemy. Just because you call a spade a bucket does not mean there's grounds to "agree to disagree". Quote I'm waiting for enemies to exist in the game that make it impossible for me to defeat, or render a mission impossible. After killing glitched enemies as high level as you can go, and seeing how powerful enemies need to be to stop us and pose a threat? Scaling is the only thing that stops people from making warframe a cookie clicker game where you mindlessly gather resources from enemies that don't pose a threat. But you've clearly shown that not even enemy scaling prevents that, as one can cheese content all the same. Literally every single example you have given of enemy scaling in relation to gameplay has so far worked against your defense of it. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Wrong. Do you play MMO's? MMO's keep people interested and playing by adding new and more difficult content. Do you actually play MMOs? Because MMOs don't make consistently more difficult content, they just make more content. Levels have absolutely nothing to do with it, and you can't just increment difficulty infinitely. Look at WoW and how its current content is perceived as significantly easier than during Vanilla. Quote Shocker that end game in all these scenarios including Warframe tend to be restricted to a certain area. Almost like there is an endgame area, with endgame enemies. As of right now, the endgame enemies in Warframe are the ones that have been scaled up to be the hardest or most difficult. Okay, but why restrict endgame to a limited number of missions and enemies when there is a far larger in-game world to play with? Dearth of relevant content is a major issue the playerbase complains about and that DE acknowledges, by the way, so I'm not just making this issue up. Quote If you actually read your own comments, your arguments start to implode. Like how you mentioned MMOs are notorious for their own leveling models, while you complain about Warframe's leveling model.) Because I'm criticizing both and explaining how neither system is designed to implement difficulty. You could perhaps take your own advice and read what's been posted more carefully next time. Quote Here is where your argument implodes. KABOOOOM. Progression in every form is tied to being able to accomplish more and more difficult tasks. For example, progressing in a math class lets you handle harder and harder math questions. Have you ever been to a math class? Learning about statistical distributions is not going to help you solve a trigonometric equation. Similarly, most of the frames and tools you acquire really do not add to your power level, they simply give you more things to use, and ultimately you only ever bring one warframe and three weapons to a mission at a time. Quote I'll use pokemon as an easy example, if you ever played pokemon, progress revolves around battling, leveling up and evolving. As you level up, you will be able to fight and defeat stronger trainers and not only do you see the progression as your pokemon evolves, but you feel it as your pokemon has an easier time defeating lower level opponents. But Pokémon is even better-known for collecting a as wide a variety of creatures (gotta catch'em all!) and forming your dream team with them, with compositions often beating straight-up leveling. You've picked just about one of the worst examples in support of your argument. Quote When you can fight or win a situation easily, that once gave you trouble? It feels like you have progressed. You grew stronger. You cannot have a sense of progression without increasing the difficulty. There are two main problems with this: first off, even assuming what you said were true, that would still not justify enemy scaling as we have it, because enemy scaling has by even your own admission failed to adequately inject difficulty into the game. Second, progression in Warframe clearly comes from acquiring more stuff, not clearing areas and abandoning them as with a linear game or theme park MMO. There is strictly no reason to restrict the area of play for players when one could have more gameplay across a broader portion of in-game territory, particularly in a game that emphasizes replay through repetition. 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Has nothing to do with my attention span. I specifically mentioned that a wall of text with two different conversations between two different people gets muddled up where you lose the context of what's being said. Except the context of what was being discussed was contained to the paragraphs quoted, and the paragraphs made in response. That is the point of quoting someone and responding to them, as opposed to quote mining, where you just take a few words clearly out of context and respond to that in a manner that clearly has no relevance to the subject matter... which is what you did. Quote We already know that your reading and understanding skills lack as you aren't self aware enough to read your own writing when somebody quotes you so you can understand what you are saying. Putting aside how this sentence is in dire need of a comma somewhere... just, what? I've never expressed any problem with understanding context; that is in fact why I pointed out that you were answering me in a manner that clearly ignored the context of what you were responding to. There is a rather intense degree of projection going on here. Quote Most people only address one person in their reply, and if they reply to two people they keep it short. No, they don't, as I am not the only one pointing out it's normal to respond to multiple people at once. Double, triple, and especially quadruple-posting on the other hand, is not, and is generally considered poor form when you could easily have condensed your comments into just one. The fact that someone had to condense your posts for you should say enough on the matter. Quote Sorry you have such trouble with enemies that literally take more then a single moment to kill xD. I can recommend a build for you, if you want to one shot them with a hammer. Okay, but it is this kind of immature attitude I'm pointing out is hampering your argumentation, though: you and I both know I'm not arguing off of my own personal experience, and we both know you're desperately insisting that you're not having any problems because you're trying very hard to come across as so skilled in a game that doesn't actually test for skill. That is why you reacted so badly when I pointed out that Warframe fosters neither challenge nor skill expression, and that our current means of expressing "skill" are through cheesing the game, which is ostensibly what you're doing (particularly given your slip at recommending a build, rather than tips on how to actually outplay enemies or the like in moment-to-moment situations). Effectively, you are taking a discussion on systemic issues with the game and trying to turn it into an e-peen measuring contest, a move as trite as it is childish. Edited February 3, 2020 by Teridax68 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Teridax68 said: See, I actually fully agree that some abilities should not need constraints on uptime at all. I wrote this thread a while back proposing a rework to abilities that would completely remove Energy as a unified system, because some abilities as you said are meant to be spammable at no cost (which is fine), while others that do need limits aren't being limited adequately at all. Problem is, that's not what Energy is innately meant to do, nor what our abilities are designed around, so effectively our gating system has been bent out of shape to match more closely what players would consider fun gameplay (i.e. not being denied the use of life-saving abilities when they're most needed), but in the process allowing us to godmode the game via non-stop use of certain effects that remove interaction between us and enemies. Going back to earlier discussions, this I think is where I agree with you that warframes need comprehensive changes to their abilities, because balancing abilities around Energy limits has ceased to work for a very long time now, and DE has tried very hard to work around that with recent abilities (e.g. bespoke resources on Ember and Gauss, exponential Energy costs on Ember and Grendel), with mixed success. I personally don't think there's actually that much gameplay value in refreshing a 90% DR steroid or the like, because that usually tends to amount to busywork and taking one's attention off of gameplay to look at timers, when it'd probably be much more interesting to have more reactive defenses, or defense through superior agility, rather than some button to multiple one's EHP by a factor of ten or twenty. I will say that in part, a 90% DR steroid has a subjective value even if it doesn't have a mechanical one, because if we're going to talk about "the power fantasy of Warframe" or whatever in these contexts, you know, we're talking about the subjective experience of things beyond just the gameplay mechanics. Now with that said.... To me, the mechanics of DR at engame levels are pretty simple - it's our equivalent of armored enemies vs. raw health. Enemies don't strip armor, but they can sometimes strip abilities or drain the energy needed for casting them. That makes those situations a different kind of threat; we can be tanking like gods and still vulnerable to being yanked down to normal if we're not paying attention. Earlier on in your progression, the difference is even more stark, because you can't afford 100% uptime and some abilities can be switched on and off easily while others have a high cost but a long duration, etc. But pressing a button to recast isn't very good gameplay in itself, no. I think that's why Gauss, New Ember, and Wisp are, you know, new, and as you're saying, power their survivability through the use of other mechanics than sheer energy. (I don't know what it's like to play these kinds of frames at low MR, since we didn't have them at the time I got here, a bit after Revenant did. But they definitely work in sortie-level and up content. Whether their mechanics become OP or fall apart completely if they're used in early game, I don't know, but of course, out of all of the new frames, only New Ember is easy to acquire. I'd be curious to see, because if they do work well without being OP for newer players, then that's some good scaling, and if they don't but just aren't accessible to those players, that's acceptable too but means that they're not a complete solution.) Meanwhile, on the other end of that energy equation, you have Energizing Dash that's a timer that needs to be reset too, but at least encourages you to make use of a mobility function in addition to triggering that reset. I think that's actually the worst option - more work than pushing a button but no more mechanically interesting because it requires nothing of the environment or other actions - but I can see how they got there. As for defense through agility, it's certainly becoming a more viable playstyle with better melee and more AoE options around. There's a limit to how much you can keep moving and how fast for that enemy accuracy debuff, while still headshotting dudes with a semiautomatic pistol. Edited February 4, 2020 by CopperBezel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 8 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, but why restrict endgame to a limited number of missions and enemies when there is a far larger in-game world to play with? Dearth of relevant content is a major issue the playerbase complains about and that DE acknowledges, by the way, so I'm not just making this issue up. Same reason that Endgame in most games is restricted to a limited number of missions, and enemies. #1 so that endgame doesn't effect or impair the larger playerbase's ability to enjoy the game. #2 so that Endgame has the proper difficulty and rewards to be associated with endgame. #3 So that endgame properly feels like endgame and is treated appropriately. Seriously 97% of what you say isn't just wrong, but ignorant. DE has been struggling with end game that players like for some time, despite ENDGAME always being something a minority of players experience in ANY GAME. (ALMOST LIKE END GAME is at the end of the game for only the strongest, elite players. Like how the fewest people did raids in destiny, but it still was undoubtedly endgame) Imagine my shock when I play a game like Monster Hunter Worlds, and the new endgame in their expansion is restricted to only a certain area. Game Dev's don't know how to make an end game that is tied to all major content in the game without breaking it for the player base. Seeing as you talk nonsense, neither do you. You don't have any suggestions other then make the game easier for yourself cause it's too difficult. You fundamentally don't understand what makes endgame, the endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 9 hours ago, Teridax68 said: No, they don't, as I am not the only one pointing out it's normal to respond to multiple people at once. Double, triple, and especially quadruple-posting on the other hand, is not, and is generally considered poor form when you could easily have condensed your comments into just one. The fact that someone had to condense your posts for you should say enough on the matter. Yes they do. I can look at the majority of the replies here, and most but yours are to one person or a general reply. But seeing as your completely toxic, asking you to mention two people differently so they could address your conversation was too much to ask of an unreasonable person like you. There's fundamentally no difference between a post the size of an entire page, and 2-3 smaller posts where I talk to different people or address smaller points. You get the weirdest elitism from the oddest notions of none of them make a lick of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)HollowCube987 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Splish Splash your opinion is trash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Okay, but seriously, it'd be simpler on all sides if you quoted all the things you were going to respond to and then responded in a single post, as opposed to scattering them out in a series of smaller ones. You're right that it's functionally no less a wall of text, but that's the best thing to be said about it. = . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 3 hours ago, CopperBezel said: Okay, but seriously, it'd be simpler on all sides if you quoted all the things you were going to respond to and then responded in a single post, as opposed to scattering them out in a series of smaller ones. You're right that it's functionally no less a wall of text, but that's the best thing to be said about it. = . The funny thing is that I respond to parts, and I quote what Im replying to. Teridax completely lost the part where I said I disagreed with his point that it broke the game, cause he didn't read the only quote I took from him before he read my message. He then proceeded to reply 3x, till I had to dig up his quote, my reply, then clarify. It's far more readable then a wall of text, and I try to keep it small so the post doesn't get derailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, CopperBezel said: I will say that in part, a 90% DR steroid has a subjective value even if it doesn't have a mechanical one, because if we're going to talk about "the power fantasy of Warframe" or whatever in these contexts, you know, we're talking about the subjective experience of things beyond just the gameplay mechanics. Now with that said.... To me, the mechanics of DR at engame levels are pretty simple - it's our equivalent of armored enemies vs. raw health. Enemies don't strip armor, but they can sometimes strip abilities or drain the energy needed for casting them. That makes those situations a different kind of threat; we can be tanking like gods and still vulnerable to being yanked down to normal if we're not paying attention. Earlier on in your progression, the difference is even more stark, because you can't afford 100% uptime and some abilities can be switched on and off easily while others have a high cost but a long duration, etc. I can very much agree that a) experiencing a power fantasy, and b) needing to make some effort to win the video game are both critically important factors for Warframe, point A being particularly relevant for frames who are supposed to feel like tanks (as opposed to all the frames that have 90%+ DR just because it's mandatory at this stage), and point B just being relevant in general in a game where it's so easy to turn one's brain off and win on cruise control. However, as you mention further below, simply pressing a button to keep a timer up or the like is probably not ideal, and I personally believe there are already examples of how to do those things better: Wukong's Cloud Walker, for example, is a terrific panic button that encourages quick reactions without forcing the player's attention away from the environment, and onto a timer in the bottom right corner. If there were more defensive abilities that were about quickly reacting to imminent threats, or anticipating an immediate threat, that would likely prove a significant improvement over the persistent steroid-based model we currently have now on most frames. Quote As for defense through agility, it's certainly becoming a more viable playstyle with better melee and more AoE options around. There's a limit to how much you can keep moving and how fast for that enemy accuracy debuff, while still headshotting dudes with a semiautomatic pistol. That's true, but also kind of the point: in an ideal world, if a player were to play perfectly by parkouring as fast as they can and blending in attacks and abilities seamlessly, they shouldn't be able to get hit at all. However, the reality is different, because if one were to do that now, one would still get damaged at random by enemy hitscan weaponry, gratuitous amounts of AoE, and some undodgeable attacks and abilities (e.g. Terra unit homing missiles). Because enemy damage scales, this means there inevitably comes a point where frames are at risk of getting one-shot even when playing perfectly. The new melee has helped somewhat, but only because autoblock turns anyone into a tank... from the front, at least, and when not attacking. Really, aside from scaling, the answer here should probably be to change how enemy accuracy works, or give us a new mechanic, so that past a certain speed of traversal we become impossible to hit. Reevaluating enemy attacks as a whole as well should help, as I don't think it makes sense to implement unavoidable attacks on enemies in a game that at least promises us the ability to dodge with ninja-like agility. 11 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Same reason that Endgame in most games is restricted to a limited number of missions, and enemies. #1 so that endgame doesn't effect or impair the larger playerbase's ability to enjoy the game. Why are we asking for endgame to impair the rest of the playerbase? Quote #2 so that Endgame has the proper difficulty and rewards to be associated with endgame. Why can this not be applied to a broader area still? Even WoW does this now with Mythic+ dungeons and the like. Quote #3 So that endgame properly feels like endgame and is treated appropriately. How does being constrained to a tiny playpit to the exclusion of a larger area contribute to the feeling of "endgame"? Quote Seriously 97% of what you say isn't just wrong, but ignorant. DE has been struggling with end game that players like for some time, despite ENDGAME always being something a minority of players experience in ANY GAME. (ALMOST LIKE END GAME is at the end of the game for only the strongest, elite players. Like how the fewest people did raids in destiny, but it still was undoubtedly endgame) Imagine my shock when I play a game like Monster Hunter Worlds, and the new endgame in their expansion is restricted to only a certain area. Game Dev's don't know how to make an end game that is tied to all major content in the game without breaking it for the player base. Seeing as you talk nonsense, neither do you. So I'm ignorant... because I'm pointing out problems you yourself have listed? How does that make sense? Your entire post just feels like a dogmatic, knee-jerk response: you think that because things were a certain way when you played MMOs as a kid, they should stay that way forever for every game no matter what, and regardless of which changes have happened since. According to you, anyone who criticizes your backwards model is "ignorant", and you hold all the answers... despite having absolutely nothing to say on the matter except put down other people's ideas. Quote You don't have any suggestions other then make the game easier for yourself cause it's too difficult. ... where exactly did I suggest to make the game easier? At this point you are just straight-up lying to compensate for the fact that you've desperately tried (and failed) to make yourself come across as exceptionally skilful in a game that does not test for skill. Quote You fundamentally don't understand what makes endgame, the endgame. How so? Do you know what makes endgame "the endgame"? Care to share your ideas then on how to introduce endgame to Warframe? 11 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Yes they do. I can look at the majority of the replies here, and most but yours are to one person or a general reply. But seeing as your completely toxic, asking you to mention two people differently so they could address your conversation was too much to ask of an unreasonable person like you. I'm sorry, it's toxic now to answer two people at once in the same post? What are you smoking? Quote There's fundamentally no difference between a post the size of an entire page, and 2-3 smaller posts where I talk to different people or address smaller points. You get the weirdest elitism from the oddest notions of none of them make a lick of sense. There clearly is, as your posts were forcibly condensed. It is not "elitism" to point out when someone makes a mistake, and not only did you make such a mistake even as you were being told you were making a mistake, you have the gall to believe you are blameless even after direct moderator intervention. Your attitude on this alone speaks volumes about your capacity to listen to reason and engage in honest debate on this thread. 8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Teridax completely lost the part where I said I disagreed with his point that it broke the game, cause he didn't read the only quote I took from him before he read my message. He then proceeded to reply 3x, till I had to dig up his quote, my reply, then clarify. It's far more readable then a wall of text, and I try to keep it small so the post doesn't get derailed. But that's simply not true; your first few replies completely missed the point of what was being discussed, as you were confusing enemy scaling with infinite scaling within the same mission, and after a few posts you just lost patience and responded to a single sentence fragment you quoted out of context, as seen at the very start of this page. For all your attempts to blame others for your shortcomings here, it is clear that you have neither the patience nor the good faith to engage in a proper debate here, and are instead desperate to try to win, by whichever standard you have set, and appear totally in the right on literally everything, to the point where even the moderators who have to format your posts properly for you are somehow in the wrong. You didn't prevent anything from getting derailed, you are the one who derailed the conversation by making it person-focused and trying to frame it as a question of whichever among us is more skilled, a question literally only you have ever cared about. If you don't feel like reading someone's post properly, just don't answer: you are under no obligation to respond, and doing so when you have clearly not read the thing you are responding to will only publicly embarrass you further. Edited February 4, 2020 by Teridax68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Why are we asking for endgame to impair the rest of the playerbase? You are, because you don't understand or have any reasonable grasp on the concept of endgame. You complain on one hand that endgame is restricted to one small area compared to the rest of the game, then lack the awareness of the problems that system could cause. It would be like a kuva lich at level 80 taking over planets that a MR 4 player is trying to grind for beginner equipment (This is an example, but it shows how your line of thinking could detract from the game) End game content is hard enough for a company to come up with creatively, and Warframe's "end game" changes so often and frequently, most people agree that the real endgame is fashion frame. Arcane farming, and Kuva lich are about as close as you get to endgame, and none of them are mandatory to fight so people who just want to farm fortuna/PoE can ignore them to do other quests. (Me thinks the casuals would complain if they were forced to fight eidolons at night to complete their mission or do orb mothers whenever the corpus were feeling frisky) 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Why can this not be applied to a broader area still? Even WoW does this now with Mythic+ dungeons and the like. How does being constrained to a tiny playpit to the exclusion of a larger area contribute to the feeling of "endgame"? And you just contradicted yourself. "The Mythic+ Dungeon system is a new mode of content that offers players an endlessly scaling challenge in 5-player dungeons. " This endgame in WOW is on a small portion of content with endless scaling, after you have complained about scaling so much. Warframe used to have a system like this, where you had "dungeons" or missions of different tier and you needed keys to unlock them. They were the old void tower missions, but people are so powerful now that even the hardest one is a joke. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: So I'm ignorant... At least you admitted it. Yes. You are. You are ignorant to what makes Endgame feel like endgame. You are ignorant on how to make the rewards feel worth it in endgame, and you are ignorant when your own examples of what endgame should look like, can all have the same complaints accurately criticize them. So do you like endless enemy scaling and being restricted to a certain area on the Map only when WOW does it? Or do you not have the self awareness to see the contradiction you listed? The problem is that you don't offer any real ideas. You only complain how the scaling is too hard for you, and dismiss the notion that anyone else can handle that very same content. I've mentioned before that you can freely voice your opinion that endgame scales slightly too far or too hard, but otherwise you don't particularly give any good indication on what an endgame for Warframe should be. In both terms of rewards, difficulty and experience. Personally, even with rail jack out right now, I don't think the game has end game other then kuva lich and riven farming. Rail jack doesn't offer my warframe any rewards like "the best gear in the game" I'm hoping DE will reserve end game for the Sentients and give stronger and more varied mods when you go the tau system. Every enemy being a sentient and having damage reduction after a certain threshold feels like it would have the challenge associated with endgame. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: you think that because things were a certain way when you played MMOs as a kid, they should stay that way forever for every game no matter what, and regardless of which changes have happened since. According to you, anyone who criticizes your backwards model is "ignorant", and you hold all the answers... despite having absolutely nothing to say on the matter except put down other people's ideas. Except that the things you complain about, are what makes an MMO, an MMO. When I play other MMO's I judge them against other games in that genre. No game has ever been able to pull off successfully anything that you have handwaved off as a good idea. Low level areas stay low level areas. New and harder content comes out, and gives the best rewards until a new expansion comes out and something tougher, and more rewarding takes it place. Kinda like how the WoW raids where endgame till the mythic dungeons came out. Ah, but there you go again destroying your own argument. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: ... where exactly did I suggest to make the game easier? At this point you are just straight-up lying to compensate for the fact that you've desperately tried (and failed) to make yourself come across as exceptionally skilful in a game that does not test for skill. Except I never stated it was skill. I demonstrated that warframes, abilities and guns abilities that far surpass your assumptions. Also, my biggest claim that was I "had seen warframes take on enemies who's level are in the thousands." Not a brag about myself. I watch something called youtube, and see what other warframe players can do. I mentioned how I personally have been able to get to enemies leveling in the 600s. But both of these guys are seeing enemies in the multiple thousands. Meanwhile you complain about grineer infantry units that are easy enough to kill, cc, or otherwise deal with in a plethora of methods. They aren't a threat like the notable enemies in the videos above. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: ... where exactly did I suggest to make the game easier? . Reduce scaling directly makes the game easier. You complained about scaling, and scaling is directly tied to difficulty. Or did you miss that WoW mystic dungeon has endless scaling for difficulty. Glad to see you are out of reasonable arguments and instead of acknowledging how that would make the game easier, you go to personal attacks. For a guy named after the big strong villain of bionicle, the concept of cunning and power seem to allude you. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I'm sorry, it's toxic now to answer two people at once in the same post? What are you smoking? No, it's toxic for somebody to ask you to reply to only them in a single post for ease of reading, then you to throw a hissy fit cause they want to be able to read what you are saying. I could bring more examples, but that would get us off point. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: There clearly is, as your posts were forcibly condensed. It is not "elitism" to point out when someone makes a mistake Yea, no. brevity is the soul of wit. I like to keep things short if I can, and not long drawn out spiels about opinions in game difficulty. Also, I haven't been messaged by a moderator yet. Not anytime recently. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: But that's simply not true; your first few replies completely missed the point of what was being discussed, as you were confusing enemy scaling with infinite scaling within the same mission, and after a few posts you just lost patience and responded to a single sentence fragment you quoted out of context, as seen at the very start of this page. Nope. I simply had nothing more to say, and nothing more needed to say. The fact of the matter is that you don't understand how scaling and infinite scaling fill the same purpose. You've admitted that scaling on the star map isn't an issue. You have admitted that most content like sorties aren't an issue. The only thing that is an issue for you that I can find is the grineer units in railjack. Scaling works like it does in any MMO. Reducing the scaling would make much of the base game easier, then need a complete overhaul of the game, as some abilities are only useful cause they strip away Enemy defense. (Despite other MMO's like Warframe having skills that lower/weaken enemy defense, make them take additional damage etc) So I don't really see you giving any new fresh ideas for a plausible and enjoyable endgame. I see you complain about bosses that are purposely made to be difficult (Like Wolf of Saturn Six) or how a few grineer in a railjack mission are too tough for you to handle at this point in the game. Seriously dude? You and I have disagreed for probably years by now. You should have a few status weapons to strip them of armor, blast to cc or warframe CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selig_fay Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 1 час назад, (PS4)UltraKardas сказал: I mentioned how I personally have been able to get to enemies leveling in the 600s. But both of these guys are seeing enemies in the multiple thousands. Meanwhile you complain about grineer infantry units that are easy enough to kill, cc, or otherwise deal with in a plethora of methods. They aren't a threat like the notable enemies in the videos above. Wait. Do you really use frames with infinite scaling as an argument that scaling mobs is not a problem? Lol, enemies 9999 is not a problem for Octavia, the revenant, or nidus. They are also not dangerous, as are level 5 mobs. In fact, the level of mobs doesn't mean anything when you have tools that ignore scaling. One girl lasted 24 hours for Kuva's survival using only a revenant and an operator. But I don't think anyone will be able to repeat it on a saryn. Edited February 4, 2020 by zhellon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You are, because you don't understand or have any reasonable grasp on the concept of endgame. You complain on one hand that endgame is restricted to one small area compared to the rest of the game, then lack the awareness of the problems that system could cause. It would be like a kuva lich at level 80 taking over planets that a MR 4 player is trying to grind for beginner equipment (This is an example, but it shows how your line of thinking could detract from the game) Which problems, then? You're not actually making any verifiable claims here, you're just reciting platitudes that do little to explain your viewpoint, and so as a thinly-veiled excuse to call me names. Tell me, what's preventing from using the tilesets we have and implementing endgame-worthy challenge in them? As you yourself listed an example of, we already have something approaching this with Kuva Liches and how they raise levels, to say nothing Nightmare, Sortie, etc. mission that do the same. For all your talk of ignorance, it looks a lot like you're the one here who doesn't seem to have a clear grasp of what they're talking about. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: End game content is hard enough for a company to come up with creatively, and Warframe's "end game" changes so often and frequently, most people agree that the real endgame is fashion frame. ... but still want an actual endgame, because DE has so far failed to implement any kind of lasting version of it. That's why it changes so frequently. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Arcane farming, and Kuva lich are about as close as you get to endgame, and none of them are mandatory to fight so people who just want to farm fortuna/PoE can ignore them to do other quests. (Me thinks the casuals would complain if they were forced to fight eidolons at night to complete their mission or do orb mothers whenever the corpus were feeling frisky) But players don't really see them as endgame due to how trivial they are to complete, and I'm not seeing who's asking for endgame to be forced upon anyone, as that's not even something other games with actual endgame do. Your arguments are coming across here as just throwing a lot of random, irrelevant rubbish to mask the fact that you're not actually contradicting my points. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: And you just contradicted yourself. "The Mythic+ Dungeon system is a new mode of content that offers players an endlessly scaling challenge in 5-player dungeons. " This endgame in WOW is on a small portion of content with endless scaling, after you have complained about scaling so much. Warframe used to have a system like this, where you had "dungeons" or missions of different tier and you needed keys to unlock them. They were the old void tower missions, but people are so powerful now that even the hardest one is a joke. Warframe still has that system; it's the Void, the keys just got removed. By contrast, Mythic+ dungeons take existing dungeons across the in-game universe and up their level/challenge, so that players can go back to old dungeons and still be challenged. I didn't contradict myself; you just have no understanding of the subject matter you're discussing. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: At least you admitted it. Yes. You are. You are ignorant to what makes Endgame feel like endgame. You are ignorant on how to make the rewards feel worth it in endgame, and you are ignorant when your own examples of what endgame should look like, can all have the same complaints accurately criticize them. I see we're back to name-calling and quoting out of context. The problem here isn't that I'm ignorant of "what makes Endgame feel like endgame", it's just that I don't agree with your own concept of endgame, and you don't like it. What makes this all the more troublesome is that despite all your bluster about the sanctity of endgame, even you implicitly admit Warframe has never come up with a successful version of it, which is why you legitimately tried to argue that fashionframe is the only real endgame here. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: So do you like endless enemy scaling and being restricted to a certain area on the Map only when WOW does it? Or do you not have the self awareness to see the contradiction you listed? Uh, no, I don't like endless scaling or being restricted to a certain area, that is in fact the entire point of the argument we've been having, and I cited WoW as an example of a MMO that evolved to answer that problem, because it was and still is a problem in that game. The only contradiction here comes from the fact that you don't seem aware of the fact that WoW has changed since however many years ago you played it. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The problem is that you don't offer any real ideas. You only complain how the scaling is too hard for you, and dismiss the notion that anyone else can handle that very same content. All of this is a complete lie, though. I never complained that enemy scaling made gameplay too hard, and I in fact pointed out that enemy scaling does not actually implement difficulty so much as a degradation in gameplay. Similarly, I never dismissed the fact that people can "handle" highly-scaled content, because I myself listed numerous ways in which one can easily cheese content regardless of scaling. The only reason you're framing things in this manner is because you're big mad that I didn't give you the applause you thought you deserved when you bragged about how you could handle such content because you're so good at the game, and instead pointed out that it does not take any particular amount of skill to copy a cheese build off the internet and sit in a mission for three hours in permanent invisibility. I also very much did offer several ideas: for starters, I suggested to get rid of scaling through enemy stats, a proposal that incensed you, and instead implement difficulty through tighter mission conditions and mission modifiers. I even gave examples of how this could work, e.g. faster Life Support drain, decreasing health on defense objectives, and just incorporating the best of the Sortie, Nightmare, Disruption, etc. modifiers. Had you actually paid any attention to the posts you had decided to rage against on principle, you would've saved yourself a lot of confusion. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I've mentioned before that you can freely voice your opinion that endgame scales slightly too far or too hard, but otherwise you don't particularly give any good indication on what an endgame for Warframe should be. But that is the literal opposite of my argument, as I'm pointing out that the "endgame" we have has been trivialized within the week of it appearing, and that we will forever remain in a game state where missions will either be trivial or tedious depending on how many stats we decide to give enemies. My criticism of scaling wasn't even made with an endgame suggestion in mind, but really, once we have systemic changes in place to enable an actual challenge, endgame could be whatever the devs want it to be, so long as the proper difficulty modifiers are implemented. I could go on about how I'd personally like to see Kuva Liches get developed and incorporated as part of a larger kingpin system where enemy characters appear dynamically and influence the Origin System in ways that incentivize us to fight against them, but that's a topic far, far removed from that of ability mods, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: In both terms of rewards, difficulty and experience. Personally, even with rail jack out right now, I don't think the game has end game other then kuva lich and riven farming. Rail jack doesn't offer my warframe any rewards like "the best gear in the game" I'm hoping DE will reserve end game for the Sentients and give stronger and more varied mods when you go the tau system. Every enemy being a sentient and having damage reduction after a certain threshold feels like it would have the challenge associated with endgame. Okay, but this is where the actual contradiction is, because on one hand, you bleat out what an endgame should look like as if it obeyed some sacrosanct set of rules, but on the other, you not only admit that no such endgame exists in Warframe, but also go into vague hypotheticals about what DE possibly could do, with no guarantee of it working. You visibly have no leg to stand on in this argument. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Except that the things you complain about, are what makes an MMO, an MMO. When I play other MMO's I judge them against other games in that genre. No game has ever been able to pull off successfully anything that you have handwaved off as a good idea. Low level areas stay low level areas. New and harder content comes out, and gives the best rewards until a new expansion comes out and something tougher, and more rewarding takes it place. By that asinine logic, we should only have one MMO in the entire world, because apparently it's a bad thing to innovate or adapt one's design philosophy in proper context. Warframe isn't WoW or any other MMO, and operates by completely different rules in virtually every respect. It has also successfully innovated where many others have failed, notoriously so, so you picked just about the worst possible game to insist upon some unspecified tradition you have yet to elaborate on. Really, at this stage this isn't even an argument about the integrity of Warframe, so much as just you wanting it to be more like your childhood MMOs, and reacting with similarly puerile viciousness towards anyone who disagrees. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Kinda like how the WoW raids where endgame till the mythic dungeons came out. Ah, but there you go again destroying your own argument. ... how, exactly? There is not a single connecting thread between any of the arguments you have made so far. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Except I never stated it was skill. I demonstrated that warframes, abilities and guns abilities that far surpass your assumptions. Also, my biggest claim that was I "had seen warframes take on enemies who's level are in the thousands." Not a brag about myself. I watch something called youtube, and see what other warframe players can do. I mentioned how I personally have been able to get to enemies leveling in the 600s. But both of these guys are seeing enemies in the multiple thousands. Meanwhile you complain about grineer infantry units that are easy enough to kill, cc, or otherwise deal with in a plethora of methods. They aren't a threat like the notable enemies in the videos above. Okay, so not only are you contradicting yourself just here (claiming not to brag about skill while simultaneously still trying to brag about your non-achievements), you are shifting the goalposts by now saying that all your bragging was actually about other people achieving such records, which begs the question as to why you weren't able to do the same, and why you think you can put others down for being supposedly unskilled when you're not even capable of reaching your own standards. Once again, you have no argument here, only failed personal attacks backed up by even more hilariously unsuccessful attempts at self-aggrandizement. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Reduce scaling directly makes the game easier. You complained about scaling, and scaling is directly tied to difficulty. Or did you miss that WoW mystic dungeon has endless scaling for difficulty. No, it doesn't, because as explained already at length, scaling doesn't actually make the game difficult. That is in fact the entire foundation of my argument against enemy scaling, and why I am proposing to replace it with other systems that would actually make the game more difficult. There are some serious reading comprehension issues at hand here. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Glad to see you are out of reasonable arguments and instead of acknowledging how that would make the game easier, you go to personal attacks. Putting aside how rich this statement is given your own posts... which personal attacks? I'm not the one who tried to puff up my in-game performance or accuse other people of being unskilled simply because they dared criticize a part of the video game. You are certainly getting called out on your behavior, because your behavior here is absolutely not what one should ever be displaying on this forum, but that is different from being attacked for your person, which is what you've attempted to do by making pointless and irrelevant insinuations about my level of in-game skill. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: For a guy named after the big strong villain of bionicle, the concept of cunning and power seem to allude you. This is literally the most pathetic manner in which you could've undermined your own point. Just to be clear: this is a personal attack you are making, and so literally immediately after you whined about how apparently I was personally attacking you. The fact that you made such a doltish mistake even as you tried to belittle my intelligence is just the cherry on top, to say nothing of how clearly this illustrates the psychological projection you've been enacting throughout this whole argument. I feel like I'm being given a masterclass example of the Dunning-Kruger effect here. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: No, it's toxic for somebody to ask you to reply to only them in a single post for ease of reading, then you to throw a hissy fit cause they want to be able to read what you are saying. ... did you just list your own behavior as toxic? To be absolutely clear, I'm the one who asked you to condense your posts to a single reply for ease of reading, as did CopperBezel (which isn't toxic), and you're the one throwing a hissy fit over such a minor criticism (which is toxic). You might want to proofread your replies next time. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I could bring more examples, but that would get us off point. Such as? Given that your entire response is completely off-topic, it's clear you haven't let that stop you so far. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Yea, no. brevity is the soul of wit. I like to keep things short if I can, and not long drawn out spiels about opinions in game difficulty. ... says the person 901 words in, in a 1150-word reply to an argument stemming solely from their different opinion on game difficulty. Rarely have I seen so many own goals in a single post. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Also, I haven't been messaged by a moderator yet. Not anytime recently. But your quadruple post was condensed into a single one, so clearly someone had to intervene and clean up your mess. I would not play that game if I were you. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Nope. I simply had nothing more to say, and nothing more needed to say. ... says the person half a dozen replies and thousands of words later. 🙄 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The fact of the matter is that you don't understand how scaling and infinite scaling fill the same purpose. Actually, I was the one who pointed out that they achieved the same purpose: On 2020-02-01 at 1:53 PM, Teridax68 said: But I'm not talking about infinite scaling, I'm talking about scaling in general. Railjack enemies don't scale infinitely, for example, but at higher levels are still notorious bullet sponges that deal too much damage to our Archwings. The point is that we inevitably reach a threshold with enemy scaling past which gameplay breaks down completely. By contrast, you were the one who invented the distinction to begin with, and failed to understand what I wasn't only talking about infinite scaling: On 2020-02-01 at 12:31 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The disconnect here is that this only rings true where the missions can last forever. And when that difficulty is only applied to a select level of missions, saying it hasn't worked out isn't completely true. And it's only a problem when you have multiple enemies at this level. Otherwise 98% of the games other content doesn't have infinite scaling. The star chart certainly doesn't. The raids and world bosses don't have this problem. So yeah, not particularly impressed with this attempt at rewriting history, given that literally everything you've said on this thread can be quoted on-demand. The fact that you've gotten confused multiple times now on who said what is also worrying in itself, and makes me question what you are actually trying to argue if you are ready to attack even your own former position. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You've admitted that scaling on the star map isn't an issue. You have admitted that most content like sorties aren't an issue. The only thing that is an issue for you that I can find is the grineer units in railjack. Of course I've "admitted" it, that's my entire point. Really, just go back to the first post you replied to and try to understand the point I am making. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Scaling works like it does in any MMO. Reducing the scaling would make much of the base game easier, then need a complete overhaul of the game, as some abilities are only useful cause they strip away Enemy defense. (Despite other MMO's like Warframe having skills that lower/weaken enemy defense, make them take additional damage etc) I feel like I answered this before. Oh, right: On 2020-02-03 at 1:23 PM, Teridax68 said: "This game needs to do X because other games do X" is not a particularly smart argument to make, particularly since those MMOs are notorious for having problems due to their own leveling model as well (namely, actual endgame content tends to be restricted to a minuscule portion of the entire in-game map unless some special mechanic is introduced to level up older enemies). It also fundamentally misunderstands the very purpose of leveling: those games level up players and enemies not to create difficulty, but a sense of progression, so that the player feels their character is growing as they play. Levels were never meant to be the player's main source of challenge to begin with, which is why they continue to fail to provide a real challenge to this day. I did. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: So I don't really see you giving any new fresh ideas for a plausible and enjoyable endgame. I see you complain about bosses that are purposely made to be difficult (Like Wolf of Saturn Six) or how a few grineer in a railjack mission are too tough for you to handle at this point in the game. Of course you don't "see" anything I've posted; it's clearly been established already that you don't actually read my posts properly. If you had, you would've seen the examples I'd already listed, such as the following: On 2020-02-01 at 12:13 PM, Teridax68 said: Instead of implementing difficulty through enemy stat scaling, DE should also look to other ways, such as by having more complex enemy units, or tighter and more difficult mission conditions (e.g. less health on a defense objective, faster life support drain in survival, etc.). The fact that you completely failed to understand my criticism of the Wolf, which I am by no means the only one to have made, further reinforces this point: On 2020-02-03 at 12:43 PM, Teridax68 said: And this proves my point: if the only way to make a powerful enemy not a complete pushover is to make them notoriously unpleasant to fight against, then perhaps we should stop using scaling as a means of implementing challenge. In this particular case, for sure the Wolf didn't die immediately, but ultimately fighting him wasn't difficult either, because he posed no real threat and actually countered skillful ways of fighting him (his dash sucks us into him, for example, even when jumping away to dodge it). The Wolf is a tedious fight, not a difficult one, and unfortunately a lot of players seem to confuse the two for Warframe. So yeah, no prizes for reading comprehension. 6 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Seriously dude? You and I have disagreed for probably years by now. You should have a few status weapons to strip them of armor, blast to cc or warframe CC. Am I detecting a grudge? I think I'm detecting a grudge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I can very much agree that a) experiencing a power fantasy, and b) needing to make some effort to win the video game are both critically important factors for Warframe, point A being particularly relevant for frames who are supposed to feel like tanks (as opposed to all the frames that have 90%+ DR just because it's mandatory at this stage), and point B just being relevant in general in a game where it's so easy to turn one's brain off and win on cruise control. However, as you mention further below, simply pressing a button to keep a timer up or the like is probably not ideal, and I personally believe there are already examples of how to do those things better: Wukong's Cloud Walker, for example, is a terrific panic button that encourages quick reactions without forcing the player's attention away from the environment, and onto a timer in the bottom right corner. If there were more defensive abilities that were about quickly reacting to imminent threats, or anticipating an immediate threat, that would likely prove a significant improvement over the persistent steroid-based model we currently have now on most frames. [...] That's true, but also kind of the point: in an ideal world, if a player were to play perfectly by parkouring as fast as they can and blending in attacks and abilities seamlessly, they shouldn't be able to get hit at all. However, the reality is different, because if one were to do that now, one would still get damaged at random by enemy hitscan weaponry, gratuitous amounts of AoE, and some undodgeable attacks and abilities (e.g. Terra unit homing missiles). Because enemy damage scales, this means there inevitably comes a point where frames are at risk of getting one-shot even when playing perfectly. The new melee has helped somewhat, but only because autoblock turns anyone into a tank... from the front, at least, and when not attacking. Really, aside from scaling, the answer here should probably be to change how enemy accuracy works, or give us a new mechanic, so that past a certain speed of traversal we become impossible to hit. Reevaluating enemy attacks as a whole as well should help, as I don't think it makes sense to implement unavoidable attacks on enemies in a game that at least promises us the ability to dodge with ninja-like agility. I certainly do think there ought to be at least some frames that are viable without having a DR button. I definitely don't think it should be all of them, because as I said, I think squishy casters with energy shields are fun. And the ones that come to mind are Nova and Ember, neither of which has a button that gives them immediate DR with no exceptions until the duration ends because there's very slightly more mechanical complexity to them than that. Wukong probably is pretty illustrative of a frame who shouldn't but does suffer from the dynamic - he has a panic button, but also has to push a button and float around a bit every minute or so to have armor. Frames in Wukong's weight class probably shouldn't need that. And then, of course, there are frames like Khora, who are only about as durable as Wukong minus Defy is and don't have a DR button, but that's fine because their kit gives them other ways to survive. (Of course, if we're talking about nerfing range like the OP, most of those other means of survival also become unavailable, but.) The point about agility being more meaningful in practice is a good one too. I can't help imagining it as part of a fairly pipe-dream idea of extensively reworking enemy types and behavior for more tactical complexity and satisfying counterplay. As long as we have endless mobs of fairly similar enemies all shooting at us with fairly similar weapons, I feel like the mush of percentages we have to deal with right now is pretty inevitable. = / Edited February 4, 2020 by CopperBezel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 55 minutes ago, CopperBezel said: I certainly do think there ought to be at least some frames that are viable without having a DR button. Like Limbo? Or any frame with invisibility? How about Rhino or Nezha? Zephyr with turbulence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 6 hours ago, zhellon said: Wait. Do you really use frames with infinite scaling as an argument that scaling mobs is not a problem? Lol, enemies 9999 is not a problem for Octavia, the revenant, or nidus. They are also not dangerous, as are level 5 mobs. In fact, the level of mobs doesn't mean anything when you have tools that ignore scaling. Those tools exist for a reason. Unless you want to make new mobs, and then remake the tools after you remake everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Like Limbo? Or any frame with invisibility? How about Rhino or Nezha? Zephyr with turbulence? I should have been clearer that that wasn't really a hypothetical. I did mention Khora in the same paragraph, but. Rhino and Nezha are a bit odd as counterpoints - Rhino has his ability health stack instead, but I don't think that'd quite meet Teridax's criterion of not having a steroid button that I was responding to, while Nezha, er, does in fact have 90% DR, and on the most common button for the business for that matter. Edited February 4, 2020 by CopperBezel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selig_fay Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 22 минуты назад, CopperBezel сказал: while Nezha, er, does in fact have 90% DR, and on the most common button for the business for that matter. Well, if you play carefully, nezha has a healthgate when its ability is destroyed, so in fact, it will protect against oneshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopperBezel Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 He's my #3 in usage %, I'm aware X ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George_PPS Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) On 2020-01-26 at 7:42 AM, EDM774 said: Kill the power fantasy feel of a power fantasy game? Great logic 10/10 I came to play warframe to be an all powerful space ninja that wipes the floor with anything it sees. If you want balance and fair play go play conclave LMAO Can't agree more. These nerf proponents could be sent by competing game developers to kill Warframe. The meteoric rise of Warframe from 2016 to 2018 and its free-to-play model had threatened many other game studios. Unfortunately they have successfully convinced DE to spend a great deal of time to remove a lot of powers and fun mechanics from the game to "balance" this previously amazing PvE game. DE's tremendous efforts to nerf the game and to remove the spirit of power fantasy could have been used to build and polish better contents. Now the game lost its shine of being the No.1 power fantasy game and instead with a lot of buggy and unpopular and extremely grinding new contents. Edited February 5, 2020 by George_PPS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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