@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!

[Aesthier]

I don't see this as a change that Warframe needs.

I can plainly see that in the OP's eyes it would increase their enjoyment of the game; however that perspective does not correspond as a prerequisite from the overall game perspective.

 

I give credit to the OP in regard to thoughtfully and overtly complex post they gave in the attempt to justify and equate their individual desires to those of the game itself.

However simply reviewing the title of the thread we can see they preemptively attempt to quell any possible feedback that may run counter to OP's opinion through the use of "but players don't want."

Do such is simply a bulling tactic to maliciously dismiss any future points others may bring to light in defense of their own enjoyment that might run counter to the OP's.

 

Would the OP enjoy this change?

Yes and I congratulate them for providing feedback that might improve their enjoyment of the game.

Would everyone enjoy this change?

It is plainly evident that not everyone would enjoy such a change. It might improve the enjoyment for some and decrease the enjoyment for others and I congratulate both sides that have posted their individual perspectives.

 

Is this a "need" for the game?

Not really as the game will easily survive without it.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Aesthier

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

The point about agility being more meaningful in practice is a good one too. I can't help imagining it as part of a fairly pipe-dream idea of extensively reworking enemy types and behavior for more tactical complexity and satisfying counterplay. As long as we have endless mobs of fairly similar enemies all shooting at us with fairly similar weapons, I feel like the mush of percentages we have to deal with right now is pretty inevitable. = /

This is fair, though I do think the task can be broken down into achievable goals. In this particular case, the main pillars behind the problem at hand boil down to a few issues:

• The general formula for enemy accuracy, which decreases the faster we go, but doesn't disappear entirely. Something as simple as enemy accuracy dropping to 0 when we reach a certain speed could potentially be enough to solve this part of the problem.
• Arson Eximus units, with the instant far-reaching fire explosion + knockdown, and Eximus damage auras in general. Just implementing some other kind of way of spreading that element, e.g. throwing out elemental goo on the ground like a Tar Mutalist Moa, could solve this.
• Plains + Fortuna units, who were special-cased to be given homing rockets.
• Just any sort of special-cased enemy, really, as for whichever reason DE insists on redoing the accuracy formula on new units to make them more accurate. All enemies should follow the exact same formula for detection and accuracy no matter what, for both simplicity and consistency.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

 

15 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I should have been clearer that that wasn't really a hypothetical. I did mention Khora in the same paragraph, but.

Rhino and Nezha are a bit odd as counterpoints - Rhino has his ability health stack instead, but I don't think that'd quite meet Teridax's criterion of not having a steroid button that I was responding to, while Nezha, er, does in fact have 90% DR, and on the most common button for the business for that matter.

Your original sentence comes off far more like a direct statement, which I posted a counter point to. 

I paired Rhino and Nezha together as their Rhino Skin and Warding halo both work nearly identical. 250% scaling off their armor and power strength to make a health gate. 

 

17 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

The point about agility being more meaningful in practice is a good one too. I can't help imagining it as part of a fairly pipe-dream idea of extensively reworking enemy types

This is a fun little idea in theory. But not in practice. Games like Destiny revolve far more about dodging enemy fire with your agility, but it leaves the players feeling far more vulnerable when you do get hit. You spend more time trying to avoid getting hit, then you do just fighting. Spaces like small corridors are death traps, and in the Destiny Raids, you have to quickly and efficiently kill enemies who will shoot you, no matter how much you try to dodge. (Anthem felt like this too later on, as even the tanks felt like they died far too squishy, but anthem was awful.)

Even in that game with dedicated gear to lower the damage you take, they give you steroids to survive. Titans have unbreakble bubble shields for a set duration, and most "ULT's" give you a huge boost in defense so you can survive use. 

Warframe doesn't have traditional "Gear". You can't get armor with better defense, in the same way like Destiny, Warcraft or Final Fantasy. If you want to see what warframe PvE would like if it was entirely agility based, I suggest you try a few conclave death matches. Its entirely agility based when certain weapons like the Daikyu one shot. Most damage reduction abilities are drastically tuned down. Give me your thoughts if you enjoy the experience. 

[CopperBezel]

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, Umbra isn't really a direct upgrade for a few specific reasons, but technicalities aside, we're not getting increasingly primed versions of the same frame or weapon, we get different frames and weapons: Hildryn isn't a straight upgrade from Inaros, nor are Gauss, Grendel, or Wisp. The Quellor or Shedu aren't meant to upgrade our arsenal permanently, they're there to offer new gameplay. The vast majority of what we have isn't designed to be a pure upgrade, and even the actual pure upgrades aren't the only toys we play with. Arguably, the only reason we get straight upgrades at all with primes is because power creep and mastery farming is how DE attempts to sell that bit of Prime Access.

[Mods quote snipped]

So a massively unpopular system most players don't substantially engage in at all, and abandon within the first few hours of play in a game they're expected to play for literal thousands of hours, is a defining characteristic of our progression system? How, exactly?

[Primed mods and rivens quote snipped]

Or, on the flipside, they're too expensive to use or aren't good on weapons with low disposition, and Primed mods only cover a minuscule subset of the mods we use. On top of that, the actual gameplay these mods provide is of questionable value, as Riven mods especially have been eminently criticized for being a thinly-disguised Plat trading ploy.

[Focus schools quote snipped]

Yes, by incrementing power in such minuscule amounts relative to the investment required that many players don't bother. Madurai isn't even the most desirable school either, as Zenurik is the school for infinite Energy and Unairu the one for killing Eidolons. Again, the gameplay benefit of those schools is questionable too, given how they too are poorly-disguised extensions to our Affinity grinding and have had a notably detrimental impact to our Energy economy.

I'm not sure in what sense that mods are unpopular or ignored by most players. If you're right that most players abandon them in the first few hours of play, that's probably because they abandon playing. You might not be wrong. I can't get my girlfriend to get past Mars. Grr.

But yes, collecting and ranking up mods is, indeed, the defining characteristic of Warframe's progression system. That includes primed and riven mods. Getting new mods and ranking them up makes all of your gear better just as much as any WRPG skill system does. Now, it is a true statement that most mods don't actually add any particular new dynamics to gameplay, but you know as well as I or UltraKardas that that was not the question you were responding to. The question was whether there's pressure to improve your gear over a linear progression. There is. Done.

The focus schools are both garbage and underappreciated and you wouldn't know they existed playing public for a year if not for instant revives and ED bubbles, but they're literally a skill tree and nothing but linear progression, where it's significantly cheaper to add capacity than it is to unlock things to put into said capacity.

[Teridax68]

9 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I'm not sure in what sense that mods are unpopular or ignored by most players. If you're right that most players abandon them in the first few hours of play, that's probably because they abandon playing. You might not be wrong. I can't get my girlfriend to get past Mars. Grr.

Mods in general? Absolutely not. Flawed mods, on the other hand? Have you ever seen anyone dedicate themselves to the system? What about all the people expressing frustration and disappointment at being tricked into putting their precious few early credits and Endo into inferior mods with no longevity?

Quote

But yes, collecting and ranking up mods is, indeed, the defining characteristic of Warframe's progression system. That includes primed and riven mods. Getting new mods and ranking them up makes all of your gear better just as much as any WRPG skill system does. Now, it is a true statement that most mods don't actually add any particular new dynamics to gameplay, but you know as well as I or UltraKardas that that was not the question you were responding to. The question was whether there's pressure to improve your gear over a linear progression. There is. Done.

Obviously there is a linear progression system, my point is that it's neither essential to Warframe nor something that actually takes up much of our current time to go through, relative to our overall playtime. It'll only take you your first hundred hours or so to accrue every single possible mod you'll need, and the rest is just for collector's value. Meanwhile, this is a game that has lasted people thousands of hours, at which stage they're really not trying to get more powerful through mods, aside from the minority of people paying insane amounts of Platinum for god Rivens, which themselves are incredibly transient. This game doesn't actually need to make us more powerful to keep us interested, because ultimately that has never been the primary mechanism by which it has kept us interested, so much as the accrual of new weapons and warframes, which are intended to be sidegrades to each other.

Quote

The focus schools are both garbage and underappreciated and you wouldn't know they existed playing public for a year if not for instant revives and ED bubbles, but they're literally a skill tree and nothing but linear progression, where it's significantly cheaper to add capacity than it is to unlock things to put into said capacity.

Okay, but I think you should read my point again, because I'm not denying that; my point is, as you said, that they're garbage and that most people don't care about them outside of a few nodes. They're a tacked-on linear progression model that was meant to give high-level players something to do, but even that has failed because no limited progression system will keep us tided over forever, which is why DE tried (and failed) to implement longevity through even grindier forms of progression through random bonuses on Kuva weapons and Railjack components. Point being here is also that this kind of linear progression is immensely overrated and overestimated in relation to how much it actually factors into our play, such that it detracts from what makes Warframe truly valuable and loved in the end.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Teridax68

[Oreades]

How about we remove all the mods and powers and ditch the space ninja theme for a realistic WW2 themed shooter........ then everyone will be happy :kappa:

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-01-26 at 3:26 PM, Buzlok said:

Overall this isn't a complete fix to nuke builds and will have some downsides to it

Right. So we should be able to do better.

For example, how about a damage falloff for AoE Abilities, linear from 100% damage at 100% Range down to zero at the modded range (when Range is greater than 100%)?

Making a mega-range nuke build would inflict greatly-reduced damage on the distant enemies, meaning squadmates would only have nothing to kill if they stood right next to the nuke 'frame.

On 2020-01-26 at 3:26 PM, Buzlok said:

this also means that no faction in the game scales extremely hard anymore, which is a good thing

Actually, the the devs are looking at eHP over all factions. Expect changes to Health/Shield scaling as well as Armour, and to enemy Damage as well, across all factions.

At ~lvl.70 all the factions could be as tough as Grineer are now, we just don't know yet.

Edited February 6, 2020 by OmegaVoid

[CopperBezel]

Part of the reason AoE is in such a weird place is definitely the lack of falloff. You'd need to decide whether status chance falls off too, or if AoE would remain a fantastic way for making big balls of status. But I could see everything from the Ogris to Whipclaw to Miasma getting a linear damage falloff and that ultimately being a good thing for gameplay depth. (You could finally drop self-damage once and for all in trade, too.)

[Walkampf]

Am 26.1.2020 um 16:26 schrieb Buzlok:

Nerf frame mods.

I actually quite agree with the general statement of the OP, however, I'd go in a different direction.

I don't think frame mods are the big problem, but mandatory mods, thus including weapon mods.

And I think the game need to be cut down even more on said mods, as long as they don't effect mechanics.

Take Hornet Strike, Vitality, Point Strike and Vital Sense for a vertical slice.

 

- Hornetstrike and Vitality are prime examples of mods that need to be cut down. They effect very basic stats, which don't effect anything else besides what they are supposed to do. Cut those down by 66%, thus making other mods viable in their place.

- Pointstrike and similar mods can be effecting other things. Changing these whould effect the mechanics of builds. Take for example True Steel is synergising with more than only DPS, other mechanics are also effected by critical hits. Changing crit chance mods whould thus also nerf other things. So these mods should be left as they are.

- Vital Sense and other Crit Damage mods should be outright removed. They server no other purpose than to be redundant to crit chance mods primary objective, increasing DPS of a weapon. A crit-weapon already gains a bonus from having it's critchance improved. Increasing it twice makes not only balancing much harder since the ripple effect of this double dipping, but it also closes an additional slot on crit-focused weapons.

[TurroBandolero]

En 26/1/2020 a las 12:34, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:

Wouldn’t that just nullify the whole armor fixes?

There are many ways to deal with armor, strenght builds are so op that ppl just neglect things like stacking corrosive projections and slapp a bunch of power strenght on mesa, press 4 and shake the camera

Edited February 6, 2020 by --KoR--TurroBandolero

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

9 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Part of the reason AoE is in such a weird place is definitely the lack of falloff. 

Well there's the argument that there is 100% falloff the moment enemies get out of range. 

The only way I would support something like this, is if the falloff was tuned differently per frame. 

For example, Frost really doesn't need or deserve fall off (as you described it) on his avalanche unless you make the range larger. This to me would just hurt frames that really don't justify a nerf. I really don't think adding a falloff range would really change anything, except make a dps frame "feel" more justified when it does the damage it was made to do.

[CopperBezel]

And it'd also need to be balanced against melee, too, since that's also a very viable thing that hits multiple enemies at a time. 

But yeah, it'd need careful tuning. 

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-02-06 at 5:49 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Well there's the argument that there is 100% falloff the moment enemies get out of range. 

The counter-argument to that would be that stacking Overextended + Stretch + Augur Reach + Cunning Drift gets you to 280% Range. 

On 2020-02-06 at 5:49 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

For example, Frost really doesn't need or deserve fall off (as you described it) on his avalanche

I liek Frost, so I hear what you're saying. But the Cold status from Avalanche is IMHO probably more important than the damage anyway, and since Cold status has no DoT it would still function as normal. Same for the Armour-stripping effect.

If you're thinking of synergy with the bubble, Avalanche range is three times that of Snow Globe anyway, so you'd need 300% Range before enemies outside the bubble take anything less than 100% Avalanche damage -- and enemies very close to the bubble (i.e. priority targets) would still take nearly all the damage.

For bubble-Frost in solo, anything not close to the Snow Globe is pretty much either a Nullifier, or something you don't need to worry about at all yet (provided you have the Energy to use Avanche and refresh the bubble as necessary).

For bubble-Frost in co-op, anything not close to the Snow Globe is what you have squadmates for. The proposed falloff mechanic really just ensures they will have something to do.

[Colyeses]

On 2020-01-26 at 4:26 PM, Buzlok said:

People would start to get diverse and creative with their builds and you would see new strategies and builds that weren't used before.

No, Warframes would be reduced to weapons platforms. There'd be a decrease in usage of any frame that isn't defense oriented. Inaros or Rhino usage, for example, would probably spike, whereas rarer frames like Ember, Nyx, Volt and Vauban would get hit quite badly.

The real issue is...

On 2020-01-26 at 4:26 PM, Buzlok said:

Do you really need 280% range on your Equinox or Saryn?

These, plus Mesa. There's a handful of frames with set-it-and-forget-it, outdated gameplay design. Almost all other Warframes are struggling to compete with weaponry like the Bramma, Lenz, Kuva Nukor, Arca Plasmor, Ignis, Catchmoon, or -any- melee weapon. Vauban is the first step in the right direction for caster frames, being both incredibly squishy and actually having damage output that is both restrained and scales properly. We should not be taking fifteen steps back by blanket nerfing all Warframes to try and fix the issues of three or four designs. Just like we shouldn't nerf all health/armour mods to try to fix Inaros.

On 2020-01-26 at 4:26 PM, Buzlok said:

Overall this isn't a complete fix to nuke builds and will have some downsides to it, but in general is should help in balancing the game.

Rather, it doesn't fix nuke builds, has more collateral damage than that it drives a resolution, and would just massively hinder gameplay balance.

[selig_fay]

25 минут назад, Colyeses сказал:

Just like we shouldn't nerf all health/armour mods to try to fix Inaros.

Health mods have never made Inaros strong. This was done by the adaptation and arcanes.

If you think about it, arcane energyze makes saryn strong.

[CopperBezel]

That MR28 Saryn main I've mentioned uses only Guardians, and sometimes an Avenger before the changes to Blood Rush. Energize is not obligatory, it's just that either Zenurik or Energize is. And having 1200 extra armor is pretty good business for Saryn.

Anyway, on the note of customizing gear to make it unique, I think the only thing that exists in the game where that's applicable to weapons is rivens. The entire build of most weapons is obligatory because it's just a complicated math problem once you have access to all of the mods and can drop on enough forma to fit them, but rivens create quirks that result in slightly different numbers from what others are getting that are unique to you, and a slightly different-looking build.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, zhellon said:

Health mods have never made Inaros strong. This was done by the adaptation and arcanes.

If you think about it, arcane energyze makes saryn strong.

Health is def what makes Inaros strong. (What were Inaros players using before adaption? its relatively new addition. 

He was strong to begin with. Everything else just shoots it up. 

[CopperBezel]

Hell, the only frames that don't benefit equally from Adaptation up to level 130 and higher enemies are the ones that have no DR and no armor, which is a very short list. Anyone who can take the first few individual rounds of a machine gun or ticks of a beam benefits exactly equally from Adaptation.

[taiiat]

you don't even have to bother if the game just Spawns less useless Trash Units and more interesting Enemies instead, that are majori...ti...ly? (that sounds wrong but right even though that's not a word) naturally resistant to random AoE spam in the first place.
by nature of those Enemies having more relevant base Stats, plus simply having more tools/Mechanics to begin with, the Enemies are more relevant and also do more. in essence they aren't just cardboard cutouts standing there pretending to be Enemies, they actually are Enemies.

delete 1/2-3/4 of the Trash Units, replace them with Specials/Heavies but not as many as you took away. Enemies get more interesting at a baseline level, Enemy Density is still high enough that you're always busy, but isn't just a blob of cardboard robots.

then AoE gets intrinsically nerfed by that there's less to AoE spam in the first place. and such adjustments also boost the value of Single Target Weapons so that they are more relevant. but neither is then intrinsically better than one another, hitting many Enemies at once or taking out particular Targets much more quickly make a good contrast with each other.

 

the best part? you can actually sell adjustments like these, because it makes something that can be visually impressive and so be sold as a Game Update, while potentially achieving the same thing in the end.
you can make actual content with this, i.e. make actual money with this.

[selig_fay]

7 часов назад, (PS4)UltraKardas сказал:

Health is def what makes Inaros strong. (What were Inaros players using before adaption? its relatively new addition.

He was strong to begin with. Everything else just shoots it up.

 

He was dying from level 60 very quickly. Without adaptation, you had to actively play and heal yourself. With adaptation, you can stand against 200 lvl and do nothing. You can check it.

On the other hand, a frame that has a good energy pool can deliver quick thinking and its EHP will be comparable to EHP 6K Inaros. For example, Khora can have much more EHP. The cat can heal instantly with attacks. You just invest not only in hp, but also in energy, in energy recovery, in reducing stun. But you have the same result. And you have useful abilities, unlike Inaros.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

24 minutes ago, zhellon said:

He was dying from level 60 very quickly. Without adaptation, you had to actively play and heal yourself. With adaptation, you can stand against 200 lvl and do nothing. You can check it.

On the other hand, a frame that has a good energy pool can deliver quick thinking and its EHP will be comparable to EHP 6K Inaros. For example, Khora can have much more EHP. The cat can heal instantly with attacks. You just invest not only in hp, but also in energy, in energy recovery, in reducing stun. But you have the same result. And you have useful abilities, unlike Inaros.

 

Well except Inaros could have the high healthpool, and rage/quick thinking. You can guarantee his energy pool is max from his healthpool, while his passive aids to make him harder to kill. 

I get where you are coming from, but High health and decent armor with letting him build the same way that other warframes build to be tanky lets him be equally tanky or more so. 

Adaption makes everything better though. One of the best mods DE has come out with in recent memory. 

[CopperBezel]

It'd be a waste not to use Rage / Hunter Adrenaline on Inaros precisely because he's a big exposed health pool, but with unexceptional armor and no DR abilities, Quick Thinking isn't offering very much eHP for him compared to what he's got. 

But yeah, it doesn't really matter how you want to reframe the statement, his large health pool is the thing that any tanking he does is depending on, simply because it's the only thing he uniquely has and is of course multiplied against whatever you stack on top. (With the caveat that health orbs and flat healing abilities also mean nothing to him.) Because all of those things work for everyone else too.

8 hours ago, zhellon said:

On the other hand, a frame that has a good energy pool can deliver quick thinking and its EHP will be comparable to EHP 6K Inaros. For example, Khora can have much more EHP. The cat can heal instantly with attacks. You just invest not only in hp, but also in energy, in energy recovery, in reducing stun. But you have the same result. And you have useful abilities, unlike Inaros.

If the point is not that Adaptation has some special role for Inaros, but that that other frames can be equally tanky to Inaros, and that all of these things then still apply equally (or better, in the case of Arcane Guardian on low armor frames) and Inaros is still left in the dust, sure.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Adaption makes everything better though. One of the best mods DE has come out with in recent memory. 

"Best" in the sense of being a beneficial mod to use, there's no question. I think it's the single most powerful mod in the game. In terms of its role in the game and design, I'd say it's possibly the worst, for the same reason.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

It'd be a waste not to use Rage / Hunter Adrenaline on Inaros precisely because he's a big exposed health pool, but with unexceptional armor and no DR abilities,

Eh.... You are kinda incorrect here buddy. He gets damage immunity when he consumes an enemy to heal, and his ult increases his armor. He starts off with a flat 40% damage reduction from his 200 armor, upto 400 armor at base. (57% damage reduction)  Throwing on an armor mod, lets him get upto 600 armor, or 66% damage reduction. That really extends his health pool out quite a bit. Past 300 armor, his effective health is doubled from around 5k, to around 9-10k. All that takes is two mods. 

This means he gets more benefit from things like Arcane Guardian as +600 armor jumps him up to 800 armor at base, 1k with his ult up, or 1200 with the armor mod. Rage just gives him a consistent source of energy he can rely on with the option of quick thinking to fall back on. Play around on this. 
https://ehpcalc.net/
I found that quick thinking on Inaros in combination of say Scarab Swarm vitality armor and flow can increase his EHP by about 3k. Not bad in all honesty. Arcane Guardian adds 10k+ to his effective health when it procs. Kinda crazy. 
 

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

"Best" in the sense of being a beneficial mod to use, there's no question. I think it's the single most powerful mod in the game. In terms of its role in the game and design, I'd say it's possibly the worst, for the same reason.

I disagree as its not as badly designed as say serration or the like. It only really benefits frames that can take a few hits to begin with. 

Now if the mod effected everything about a warframe, (Like Adaptation extended its effects to anything under the warframe's power..... Frost Snow globes getting 90% damage reduction/Iron Skin etc and so on... I could see it being bad just off the sense of it being massively overpowered. 

I think it would be glorious, but man would it be Op lol. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas
Named wrong Arcane. Fixed Arcane Name.

[CopperBezel]

All I'm saying is that 2.5x his energy bar is still a much smaller number than his health bar. Both benefit from armor equally. Like compare Quick Thinking (2.4x his tiny energy pool) with Primed Flow (for 425 energy total) to Gladiator Resolve (550 * 1.8) or Primed Vigor (550 * 2.2), either of which gives him about the same benefit in one mod.

As for armor, yeah, he's right in that middle range where he's got decent armor to begin with but Arcane Guardian is still alright for him (he's not a Valkyr where he'd be seeing only a relative 50% damage reduction from a pair). Scarab Swarm giving him a flatly additive 200 armor (eHP worth two thirds of whatever HP his health bar and QT energy give him) is alright I guess? = o

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

24 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

As for armor, yeah, he's right in that middle range where he's got decent armor to begin with but Arcane Guardian is still alright for him (he's not a Valkyr where he'd be seeing only a relative 50% damage reduction from a pair). Scarab Swarm giving him a flatly additive 200 armor (eHP worth two thirds of whatever HP his health bar and QT energy give him) is alright I guess? = o

If he ever gets a prime with more armor? It would become more significant. 300 armor would give him a base of 50% dr, that would with scarab armor give him 2/3rds damage reduction. 

Won't know until he comes out thou.