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@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!


Buzlok
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Well, the more base armor he has, the less % difference a flat buff makes on what remains. That is how armor works. Right now, either Steel Fiber or Scarab Armor pushes him over that magic 50% mark. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I disagree as its not as badly designed as say serration or the like. It only really benefits frames that can take a few hits to begin with. 

Now if the mod effected everything about a warframe, (Like Adaptation extended its effects to anything under the warframe's power..... Frost Snow globes getting 90% damage reduction/Iron Skin etc and so on... I could see it being bad just off the sense of it being massively overpowered. 

I kinda feel like the rifle equivalent would be a mod that quadruples your existing modded crit chance. Unquestionably better than Vital Sense if you have to just pick one, but also multiplying against it, and disproportionately powerful for a single slot, even if the lowest 20% of weapons by crit chance couldn't benefit from it. 

Most frames have some kind of damage mitigation, whether DR or armor, and can benefit from Adaptation, and it's better than almost any survivability mod once you break that threshold.

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2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I kinda feel like the rifle equivalent would be a mod that quadruples your existing modded crit chance.

Unless it worked like Blood Rush, that is. Adaption is a variable defense. The rifle mod would be either flat damage increase the more you shoot something or another increase to a major stat. 

Which kinda sounds awesome tbh

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I agree that nuker builds need to be nerfed even though i abuse the hell out of saryn, volt and equinox for that very purpose. However the fix for this is very very simple. Cap range at 190% and make it so offensive abilities can not pass thru walls Or even put it at the same value as efficency and cap it at 175% but i feel that would be putting it a little to low.

 

I am all for this gaming going to a required team composition based meta as i feel its what is needed to save the game outside of content.

 

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The balancing of "nuke" frames like saryn in high lvls are not the fakt that it doesn't nuke the room, its the fakt that she get one shoot with out other frames to help or a more defensiv build. And its not saryn with her 100% cor status that benefits from this, its benshee and excal...

Also Armor is nothing that prevents nuke setups, then there is something called corrosiv protection....

In fact this change only affaktes rnd groups in mid high lvl like arbitration and makes this modes more open for other builds and weapons and it lowers the need of a pre made group. And maybe viral and gas becomes the new corrosiv.

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Put "Cool Downs" on Nuke abilities. Black Hole was another mistake. Nukes trivialise game content. 

Utilise combo's to build rage meters that augment Warframe abilities. Or Speed up cooldown rates because abilities could be partially earned not just RnG energy drops.

Give enemies the ability to parry and riposte to counter and maybe a ranged projectile dispel that maybe freezes/locks a random ability for a duration. 

They could crank up Exilus mod capacity +3 slots to put more worth into movement styles over raw power/survivability...-With the intention of endgame contender global Nightmare mode, with fixed level high tiered enemies.

Make CC frames matter here. 

Give universal Elemental damage mods, that trick out a Warframes abilities with a status augment meaning fire,ice,electric,cold,etc all the combinations as nightmare rewards. 

Trying to build more warframe build diversity within each frame to really personalise and increase a feeling of investment if not depth in players favourite frames.

Some Enemy armor could literally reflect a damage % of ranged attacks so as to check nuke warframes with their own damage.

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10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because DE has clearly not made "better gear" than the Tigris Prime in years, and has not needed to in order to push their content, thus there is no need for power creep in Warframe to make items desirable. The fact that you're now trying to shift the goalposts by claiming the Tigris Prime is "only the best weapon in certain scenarios", when this does not prevent it from still being known as the game's strongest weapon, is itself a clear indication even you know your position is indefensible, which is why you're yet again trying to reframe it. 

I don't know how the two of you ended up agreeing with the comical premise that the Tigris Prime was just the best gun ever created, but it's very much beside the point, considering that UK's original point was that the bester-est versions of it came out after the merely best-est versions did, and considering that you do understand that power creep exists in Warframe and only disagree that it should, unless you've changed your mind on that point. 

Considering that any new game mode comes with rewards attached and is expected to be the best way to get the particular thing it's a farm for, so that Arbitrations made endo many times faster to farm, Onslaught became the go-to farm for affinity and faster than Eidolons for focus once the Lua Lens was a thing, etc., the linear progression that we both know and agree exists as a way to require grinding time for access to content has been progressively squished down to pile more things on top, while the easy access to cheap endo and kuva and focus and so on means that "good gear" means maximizing all of those things, and that means that new "endgame content" has to be satisfying even when it's played with all of that optimized gear available....

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10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, how did I improperly quote CopperBezel here?

You didn't, UK is just offended by details of formatting again (in this case, breaking up the quote and leaving the link only in one part instead of going to the trouble of copy-pasting it and removing the parts you don't need from each.)

If the two of you are set just insulting each other and making comments about formatting, could you take it to PM? I keep checking this thread when there's activity to see if someone's said anything about the topic but that hasn't happened in a few days. 

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45 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Er, no, I just in fact didn't reply to it. Look again, the first part of the quote was a normal linked quote for which I got a notification.

I was looking at the bottom quote that he just copy pasted, instead of directly quoting you. In all honesty, I think he edited it later to include the quote. But I could have honestly just missed it.

Doesn't really matter either way.

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Tigris Prime has been power crept in raw damage, meaning the Exergis is flat out better then Tigris Prime when it comes to raw damage output. The Exergis beats the Tigris Prime against Eidolons, Wolf of Saturn Six, etc. How many people use the Tigris Prime for Raid Bosses, Archwing Missions, and so on? Almost nobody. The individual pellets do hardly nothing, and proc immunity. So people go to a different weapon type. In that different weapon type? Chances are they are either using a Rubico Prime, a Vectis Prime, which are power crept versions of said Rubico or Vectis. 

You're actually comparing two weapons here that do actually quite remarkably different things. The Tigris Prime has a much higher pellet count than Exergis. This means that it can hit far more times than the Exergis. Great if you need to apply multiple status effects all at once or want to apply two Status Effects to a group of enemies (When combined with Punchthrough) OR want to stack and apply multiple status effects to one or more enemies (Such as Slash Damage due to it's ridiciously high damage) Meanwhile the Exergis has a base pellet count of two, which means it's more useful for perhaps taking out single use targets.

The Tigris Prime isn't meant to hit a single target with raw damage output. It's meant to hit a bunch of enemies with an incredibly high status output. If you can somehow mod it for mostly Corrosive + Heat and can still hit 100% Status pre-multishot, you're sitting there with a shotgun that applies a ton of Slash and a ton of armour strip. The Exergis' goal is indeed a single target shotgun, which is VERY different to the Tigris Prime. That's just one example. 

The game isn't just Eidolons or stuff like Wolf of Saturn Six. People don't go in with a STATUS weapon versus things that are IMMUNE to Status. People bring in Saryn to do Defence Missions and ESO, but they don't bring her to Eidolons. 

But if you want to strip Grineer Armour in a solo mission entirely? That Corrosive high pellet count Shotgun looks far more appealing than the two pellet Shotgun. Extra points due to Duplex Trigger on the Tigris also. 

27 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When it comes to only bows. Explain how the Bramma isn't power creep. If you can't counter how the Bramma has power crept bows without talking about a different weapon type, you have lost. The same is true for all other weapon types, (Snipers, melee, pistols, etc.)  Case closed. You've lost. 

 

Sure, I'll take the challenge. Lenz has a higher crit chance. Lenz can Orange Crit with one Point Strike + No Riven. Lenz also has guarantee Status in the form of Cold also, meaning more damage if you plan to use CO for whatever reason. Other Bows, like the Dread and Rakta Cernos, are silent allowing you to use them without alerting the enemy for certain missions/nightwaves/Riven Challenges. Dread also actually does quite a lot of damage. Lenz and Bramma are meant to be bows that can deal with massive crowds while the others are more single targetting.

Hell, if using your earlier example of 'Raid Bosses' such as Eidolons and I was forced to bring a bow, I'd probably go with Paris Prime or Dread. For Liches? Definitely a Bramma, since I like the bow. Hey look, different reasons to use different weapons for different options.

Hell, many people I know seem to still prefer Lenz over the Bramma. 

But ultimately certain weapons and tools are needed for certain things. You don't bring a Slash based Build into Lower level Missions and You don't bring a Status Weapon to a Eidolon fight. But you do bring stuff like Toxin and Gas versus Corpus (espcially with Augmented enemy Shields) and Corrosive versus Grineer or Slash + Viral against insanely high level enemies. 

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2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

You're actually comparing two weapons here that do actually quite remarkably different things. 

Kinda the point. My entire point is that every weapon type gets stronger as time goes on. The shotguns get stronger, the bows get stronger, and the mods that we upgrade them with get better. 

When it comes to the Exergis, I'm simply comparing it to the Tigris to make a point. One that the Exergis does more raw damage and is a better weapon in certain scenarios. 

Teridax both refutes  cower creep, ignores all the prime gear that are upgrades from previous weapons, and denies that warframe is locked to progression, hence the weird examples at play.

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When it comes to the Exergis, I'm simply comparing it to the Tigris to make a point. One that the Exergis does more raw damage and is a better weapon in certain scenarios. 

Worth pointing out that the Exergis does not in fact have a greater damage output than the Tigris Prime: the damage per shot is slightly higher, and the reload time slightly lower, but the Exergis has only one base shot, as opposed to the Tigris Prime's two. In the time it takes you to deal 1620 damage with the Exergis, the Tigris Prime can deal 3120. Additionally, the Tigris Prime's damage is heavily skewed towards Slash, which makes it make full use of its high status, whereas the Exergis has a mix of damage types, including Radiation, that don't make as good use of its status chance.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Teridax both refutes  cower creep, ignores all the prime gear that are upgrades from previous weapons, and denies that warframe is locked to progression, hence the weird examples at play.

So here are a few choice quotes showing that the above is a lie:

On 2020-02-03 at 12:43 PM, Teridax68 said:

That is true, but then the issue with that those stats don't just make content easier to run, they often do so by eliminating interaction with enemies entirely. Our map size doesn't scale with our warframe stats, for example, so if one can alter the range of a hard CC effect to span multiple rooms, for example, the end result each time is that we get to stop enemies before they even get to see us. Similarly, our abilities were originally meant to be balanced around some kind of meaningful cost that meant we couldn't use them with 100% uptime, but thanks to evolutions in the Energy economy, which Efficiency mods contributed significantly towards, 100% uptime is pretty much the norm, which also means 100% uptime on effects that grant some sort of immunity to enemies entirely, e.g. invisibility, invulnerability, and so on. When left unchallenged, these effects tend to make content trivial regardless of enemy stats, which is also why enemies over time have had ability resistance, status resistance/immunity, ability nullification, etc. added to their kits, to a great detriment in our agency. This is also one of the reasons why I'd like to tackle our ability stats, because I'd rather have a game in which we couldn't kill enemies we're sometimes not even aware of, but also didn't have our ability to move and act constrained, not even by enemy hard CC, which I also consider to be a cheap form of artificial difficulty.

On 2020-01-31 at 10:41 AM, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but this is also a clear example of why I'm not promising a panacea here, because enemy scaling is an entire problem by itself that needs to be addressed, whether or not one reworks our mods. Problem is, because as you said our modding is inherently balanced around us dealing with those kinds of scaling enemies, the two are intimately tied together: remove or rework enemy scaling without altering our current mods, and the game becomes completely trivial. Alter our mods to no longer turn us into gods, and suddenly we lose our tools to bypass an enemy scaling system that is itself fundamentally broken. I don't actually believe in implementing linear progression in Warframe, as I think our greatest, most enjoyable, and longest-lasting progress comes from the different frames and weapons we add to our arsenal (horizontal power, rather than vertical power), but it is an obvious fact that our current state of modding, as well as warframe design, weapon design, etc., is built to lean against enemy scaling, and that changing one will require altering the other.

And from the very first post I made on this thread:

On 2020-01-27 at 10:36 AM, Teridax68 said:

To some extent, I think modding as a whole needs to be reevaluated, because at this stage I feel it's had a largely detrimental effect to the game: bar the exceptions of some older warframes that have multiple builds, most frames and weapons have pretty much just one build, with little room for variation, and that even extends to elemental damage types, such that we all tend to output the same kind of damage in the same way. What mods fail to add in diversity, though, they add significantly in power... and so far that hasn't been a great thing either, because it's made our weapons, and more recently our frames scale to such ridiculous degrees that enemies need hundreds of times more EHP and damage to not be utter pushovers (and even then, they often still are). Effectively, while I do think modding should remain in some form due to the diversity it promises (though doesn't deliver), it should probably be overhauled so that we're not just stacking damage on top of more damage on weapons, or going for cookie-cutter builds on our frames that let us practically auto-win content up to a certain level. Part of the issue I think is that modding is done through generic stat increases, when already the mods people tend to be most interested by are those that offer more bespoke and unique bonuses: if there were less emphasis on generic stat mods, and more on fun mechanics to play with, or alterations to our existing ones, modding would likely start to feel much more engaging, and potentially more balanceable too.

So not only am I clearly not denying power creep or power gains in our progression, I am acknowledging them as a fundamental problem, as both are detrimental to our diversity of playstyles and the quality of our play. Putting aside the irrelevance of primes in a thread about ability modding, the crux of the point I've been specifically making is that I'd like to move away from a modding system focused around raising our stats, and towards one that instead gives us new mechanics to play with, or alters existing ones, in the style of augments. By contrast, this was your response when we were discussing enemy scaling:

On 2020-02-03 at 1:31 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Your argument that scaling shouldn't exist is a laughable one. You can voice that in your opinion enemy armor scales too high in certain regards, and that's fine. But no enemy scaling at all would make this game lose every and all intrigue. There would be no point to get new weapons or stronger gear anymore or mod after a certain point cause you'd already be insta killing every enemy forever with no threat of losing on the horizon. 

So this whole narrative that I'm somehow denying the existence of power creep is visibly one you only conjured up later in the argument when you didn't have an adequate response to a point, in stark contrast to our earlier exchanges. Given that most of your posts have been erased from this thread, I would suggest abandoning this obsession, and perhaps trying to engage in productive discussion on things that have actually been said, if that interests you at all.

On the particular topic of ability modding (and this might interest you as well, @CopperBezel), there was a recent fan concept thread that broaches the topic from a different angle, in that it suggests to give us a dedicated modding space for augments, and multiple augments per ability. In many respects, it illustrates the requests I posted here for an overhauled modding system, in that it puts a much greater focus on giving us new mechanics, or altering existing ones, over layering on raw power. My own take on it is that one could even just keep the augment-only mod slots, and do away with the rest of our current modding entirely, so that our choices boil down to a handful of really impactful mods to pick from for any frame (and the same system could be applied to weapons and companions). This falls back into the topic of balance, because doing away with our stat increases means we'd get to go back to a much more reasonable level of power. Because the focus of augments is to add gameplay, rather than just power, it also means we wouldn't need insane increases to our stats across the board for our modding to feel impactful. We wouldn't have situations where an ability oscillates being having too low a base range, or having far too much range when modded for it, because unless an augment were to specifically alter the ability's range, that stat would be untouchable.

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Worth pointing out that the Exergis does not in fact have a greater damage output than the Tigris

Except you'd be half wrong. The Exergis boasts greater single shot damage with punch through. The Tigris is a much better status weapon, but the Exergis wins in damage output especially to groups with built in punch through, The best way to build the Tigris Prime is a status build. The best way to build the Exergis is flat damage. When it comes to Eidolons and the like? The Exergis is the better weapon. (As you are building it with mods for greater raw element then the weaker damage of the dual status mods.) But you are trying to protect the Tigris Prime as your argument, as you have no other argument about power creep except it. 

I've asked you multiple times to explain how the Kuva Bramma isn't power creep among the bow weapons. You either never replied as you don't have a retort, you deleted the reply, or the reply was deleted for you. I'd ask you to do the same for the Nikana, Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime, but for both scenarios, you wouldn't be able to come up with a reasonable response without deflecting to a different weapon or weapon type. 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So here are a few choice quotes showing that the above is a lie:

That's quaint and all. Except those responses don't explain away the other comments you had where you contradicted yourself and said DE doesn't try to invalidate their old weapons. 

You still don't follow the logic that Prime Weapons are trying to invalidate their non prime counterparts. You still haven't explained how the Vectis, Tigris, Soma, Fragor, Nikana, Gallatine, Akstilletos, and Lex Prime aren't a visible attempt to make the non prime variants obsolete, with progression attached. (All aforementioned prime weapons have the same Mastery Rank Requirement or higher then the base version of the gun, for the means of significant progression. Example A being the Tigris Prime locked behind mr 13 while the Tigris is locked behind 7. You need more then double the mastery rank experience to unlock the Prime. 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So not only am I clearly not denying power creep or power gains in our progression,

Yes you have. Otherwise you would realize your argument about the Tigris Prime makes no sense. Yet you cling to it as your only argument time and time again. 

You fail to understand that by the previous attempts at your logic, everyone would have stuck to one weapon and after a certain amount of time, nobody would ever need a stronger weapon then what they had. They would have gotten the best weapon and never bother with anything else. People would have stuck with their status build boltor prime, or their crit build soma prime. What else would they need? 

Except that progression, enemy scaling, different combat scenarios like the ones you have complained about (Wolf of Saturn Six, and Railjack Grineer) compelled players to seek stronger more powerful options to defeat a rising enemy level. (You know, Elite Sanctuary, and Arbitration spawn enemies at the highest levels from the get go of nearly any mission right now except final level kuva lich. 

You have shifted the goal post for yourself once again. Despite that, you will probably still attempt to defend your Tigris Prime argument, even though with your last sentence that argument no longer makes sense. The post you made about progression no longer being core to warframe's gameplay also no longer makes sense. 

You keep shifting your argument bit by bit and don't even have the honesty to admit it. 
 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except you'd be half wrong. The Exergis boasts greater single shot damage with punch through. The Tigris is a much better status weapon, but the Exergis wins in damage output especially to groups with built in punch through, The best way to build the Tigris Prime is a status build. The best way to build the Exergis is flat damage. When it comes to Eidolons and the like? The Exergis is the better weapon. (As you are building it with mods for greater raw element then the weaker damage of the dual status mods.) But you are trying to protect the Tigris Prime as your argument, as you have no other argument about power creep except it. 

I've asked you multiple times to explain how the Kuva Bramma isn't power creep among the bow weapons. You either never replied as you don't have a retort, you deleted the reply, or the reply was deleted for you. I'd ask you to do the same for the Nikana, Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime, but for both scenarios, you wouldn't be able to come up with a reasonable response without deflecting to a different weapon or weapon type. 

Please point to even a single example of people bringing the Exergis to an Eidolon hunt. A slight increase in base damage and punch-through does not compensate for an entire shot, which is what the Exergis is routinely built for anyway, to the detriment of all else. I also plainly explained that whether or not the Kuva Bramma is above or below in power relative to the Lenz is irrelevant, as it clearly has not supplanted the Tigris Prime, and you are only establishing an arbitrary distinction between weapon types in stark ignorance of the fact that anyone can pick whichever weapon type they want. Another user also made the case against the Bramma, which you conveniently ignored, just as you ignored the fact that entire pages' worth of your responses were removed. You would be wise not to repeat your mistakes.

Quote

That's quaint and all. Except those responses don't explain away the other comments you had where you contradicted yourself and said DE doesn't try to invalidate their old weapons. 

Such as? Please, once again, point to even a single example, as it is clear you are being entirely delusional, given that my literal first post in this thread clearly acknowledges and criticizes power creep.

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You still don't follow the logic that Prime Weapons are trying to invalidate their non prime counterparts. You still haven't explained how the Vectis, Tigris, Soma, Fragor, Nikana, Gallatine, Akstilletos, and Lex Prime aren't a visible attempt to make the non prime variants obsolete, with progression attached. (All aforementioned prime weapons have the same Mastery Rank Requirement or higher then the base version of the gun, for the means of significant progression. Example A being the Tigris Prime locked behind mr 13 while the Tigris is locked behind 7. You need more then double the mastery rank experience to unlock the Prime. 

Why do I have to explain anything? Primes are clearly direct upgrades to their non-prime versions, a fact I have never denied, so I fail to see what you are expecting me to "explain" on the matter. The fact that these primes typically have higher MR requirements than their base versions does not prevent the fact that MR requirements do not usually correlate to the weapon's actual power.

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Yes you have. Otherwise you would realize your argument about the Tigris Prime makes no sense. Yet you cling to it as your only argument time and time again. 

You fail to understand that by the previous attempts at your logic, everyone would have stuck to one weapon and after a certain amount of time, nobody would ever need a stronger weapon then what they had. They would have gotten the best weapon and never bother with anything else. People would have stuck with their status build boltor prime, or their crit build soma prime. What else would they need? 

Except that progression, enemy scaling, different combat scenarios like the ones you have complained about (Wolf of Saturn Six, and Railjack Grineer) compelled players to seek stronger more powerful options to defeat a rising enemy level. (You know, Elite Sanctuary, and Arbitration spawn enemies at the highest levels from the get go of nearly any mission right now except final level kuva lich. 

You have shifted the goal post for yourself once again. Despite that, you will probably still attempt to defend your Tigris Prime argument, even though with your last sentence that argument no longer makes sense. The post you made about progression no longer being core to warframe's gameplay also no longer makes sense. 

You keep shifting your argument bit by bit and don't even have the honesty to admit it. 

But you are projecting once again, and in fact here you are stating my own argument. The entire point to my argumentation is that, even in the current state of Warframe that is rife with vertical progression and power creep, players still progress well after the point where they've acquired the strongest weapon, or the mandatory mods, or the like, because the real mode of progression in the game is diversity, and not power. I in fact stated exactly this already:

On 2020-02-03 at 4:15 PM, Teridax68 said:

But it is this very response that is laughable, because you are framing the acquisition of new frames and weapons as linear increases in power, which is really not how it works. We don't acquire most weapons or frames because they represent a straight-up power boost, we play them because they offer different gameplay, and different toolsets to use in our missions. This is why players will go for frames that aren't necessarily top-tier, and the same with weapons, because they genuinely enjoy their playstyles. Warframe is fundamentally not a game about becoming infinitely more powerful, it's a game about accumulating a wide variety of different tools and toys to play with. Removing enemy scaling would not invalidate this, nor has enemy scaling ever contributed positively at all to the acquisition of gear.

Not only is it you, not me, trying to shift the goalposts in this argument, you're attempting to reverse our positions entirely, despite the fact that we're ultimately agreeing on the matter. The Tigris Prime may be the game's strongest weapon, but people pick more than just the Tigris Prime, because people like variety. This can apply to whichever extended subset of weapons cover all possible scenarios, and even you yourself admitted in a now-deleted response that you pick weapons for fun, and not simply for power. Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

Edited by Teridax68
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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

A slight increase in base damage and punch-through does not compensate for an entire shot,

Yea wrong. One, an exergis build is more raw damage since you shouldn't be building status. So double the damage of dual status mods. Secondly, 2 enemies hit = more damage then a single target Tigris Prime. But here you go again, hopelessly defending this argument as you have nothing else to stand on. More raw damage, + higher increase of elemental damage = higher base damage overall per shot. 

Exergis Build 
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Exergis/t_30_42203030_166-3-5-167-7-3-171-0-5-178-2-5-191-5-3-482-1-10-847-4-5-892-6-10_171-6-482-7-178-8-166-7-847-5-191-7-892-8-167-9/en/2-0-126/221031/0

Tigris
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_22300000_178-1-5-191-4-3-264-7-3-330-6-3-357-5-3-359-2-5-482-0-10-847-3-5_482-7-178-8-359-6-847-9-191-7-357-7-330-7-264-7/en/2-0-96/232998/0

Raw Damage, the Exergis is twice the damage of  aStatus build Tigris. Add another tally to you being wrong. Add that to you being wrong when you said a large amount of the player base doesn't interact with the mod system or the tenno school. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Such as? Please, once again, point to even a single example, 

Ooh, only the point where you said DE doesn't visibly try to make their old arsenal obsolete. When they very clearly do in almost every regard to a player's gear. Or the point where you said Progression isn't a key driving point of the game. 

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  On 2020-02-05 at 2:01 PM, Teridax68 said:

I mean, Umbra isn't really a direct upgrade for a few specific reasons, but technicalities aside, we're not getting increasingly primed versions of the same frame or weapon

[Mods quote snipped]

So a massively unpopular system most players don't substantially engage in at all, and abandon within the first few hours of play in a game they're expected to play for literal thousands of hours, is a defining characteristic of our progression system? How, exactly?

[Primed mods and rivens quote snipped]

Or, on the flipside, they're too expensive to use or aren't good on weapons with low disposition, and Primed mods only cover a minuscule subset of the mods we use. On top of that, the actual gameplay these mods provide is of questionable value, as Riven mods especially have been eminently criticized for being a thinly-disguised Plat trading ploy.

 

The game now has 2 versions of what could be considered Excalibur Prime. Warframe continually releases new and stronger weapons to turn into a prime weapon, locked behind a mastery rank gate that requires progression to unlock normally. Leveling up mods, collecting stronger mods (such as adaptation, rolling guard, rivens, etc is a progression path since the difference between a mod like Point Blank and PRIMED Point Blank is a massive boost of raw damage on every shotgun. And you never even admit to being wrong on every single one of these points. 

You shift the subject so you don't have to address it. 

Are you going to pretend you didn't say that? Cause if you deny ever saying that, that would make you a liar. Considering your posts were deleted? You don't have much credibility. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Why do I have to explain anything? Primes are clearly direct upgrades to their non-prime versions, a fact I have never denied,

 You need to explain how other the numerous weapon examples I have brought up aren't power creep, as the entire basis of your argument depends on it. 

You have failed to explain why and how the game isn't tied to progression as its main focus when Mastery Rank gives direct access to stronger Weapons, Riven Mods, quests and a good chunk of the game cannot be experienced without it. 

The fact of the matter is, you blatantly ignore or are totally ignorant to the system and pretend it isn't there while you continually shift your argument. Quests are tied to Mastery Rank, which means players need to progress mastery rank to get the tenno schools, which gives them an increase in power. The quests then give them access to new warframes mods and weapons, like the Umbra melee mods which offers the highest crit boost mod for melee as well as a stronger more powerful Excalibur that fights beside your operator. 

That's why you WON'T attempt a counter point, because you do not have a Counter point to those weapons. Our original argument was on the basis of enemy scaling, which I defended as being fine as the game gives you ample tools to mitigate and enough power to deal with any enemy in the game, (A point to which you agreed with, and every games that is mmo or an mmo lite follows. (Yes every game gives you certain specified tools to defeat, mitigate or negate enemies through healing, weapons and etc,) 

So you lead this entire argument down a rabbit trail as you claimed the game's focus wasn't about progression, power creep, and so on, so that you could get to the point where you shill for you entirely nonsensical mod rework. 

I get that you think your mod rework is a good idea.Fact is? It's not, and it's not going to happen. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The fact that these primes typically have higher MR requirements than their base versions does not prevent the fact that MR requirements do not usually correlate to the weapon's actual power.

Actually, Mr Requirements pretty blatantly correlate to a weapon's power. The higher the MR, the higher the damage will be in probability. Soma and an Acceltra pretty accurately demonstrate how you are wrong. Soma, Mastery Rank 6. Acceltra, Mastery Rank 8. Soma does a total of 12 damage a shot. Acceltra does 79 damage a shot on direct hit and explosion. The Acceltra has higher raw damage, and higher critical chance. These weapons serve the same purpose. To be a crit based assault rifle.

The other flaw in your argument? It's not a linear upgrade. It's an exponential upgrade. The strongest Soma build I can find ? 12,497.400 Burst Dps. The Acceltra? 229,092.485 Burst Dps. 

It's not a linear upgrade. That's 18x the damage. You need a fact checker installed, or an understanding that when a weapon has double the damage over a previous version, the weapon gets multitudes stronger as the mods on that weapon scale the damage ever higher, especially on a crit weapon like these.  

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

Actually, I agreed that the Tigris Prime was the strongest Status weapon, and laced nuance in that. There are weapons that surpass it, as I noted. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This can apply to whichever extended subset of weapons cover all possible scenarios, and even you yourself admitted in a now-deleted response that you pick weapons for fun, and not simply for power. Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

It's cute that you think Warframe is Overwatch, where diversity and different playstyles are everything, but that's not how progression works in an mmo. 

Let me correct you. You crave diversity, and can only speak for yourself or add that there are probably other people like you who do to. But in a game like Warframe, people want strength first, fashion second and diversity last. That's why the new content is often better, why new frame reworks are often stronger, why new mods are increasing our power, and why your entire point belongs in garbage can prime. 

That's why people pay money to get access to Prime Weapons and Warframes, when in most cases, the Prime Access is merely stronger, superior versions of the gear people already have, ONLY BETTER LOOKING (USUALLY! Sorry Ash/Trinity Prime. De No hate me.) It's not the diversity they are buying, nor your bull$h*t that they are buying. It's power. No diversity in the Kuva Brakk over the Brakk. Or the Kohm over the Kuva Kohm. No real difference between the Nikana and Nikana Prime in terms of diversity. 

Diversity has only one strength, when it has power in a different situation, or when it's strength isn't too far off the other alternatives. 

So once again? Wrong. Try not to get your posts deleted this time. 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yea wrong. One, an exergis build is more raw damage since you shouldn't be building status. So double the damage of dual status mods. Secondly, 2 enemies hit = more damage then a single target Tigris Prime. But here you go again, hopelessly defending this argument as you have nothing else to stand on. More raw damage, + higher increase of elemental damage = higher base damage overall per shot. 

Exergis Build 
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Exergis/t_30_42203030_166-3-5-167-7-3-171-0-5-178-2-5-191-5-3-482-1-10-847-4-5-892-6-10_171-6-482-7-178-8-166-7-847-5-191-7-892-8-167-9/en/2-0-126/221031/0

Tigris
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_22300000_178-1-5-191-4-3-264-7-3-330-6-3-357-5-3-359-2-5-482-0-10-847-3-5_482-7-178-8-359-6-847-9-191-7-357-7-330-7-264-7/en/2-0-96/232998/0

Raw Damage, the Exergis is twice the damage of  aStatus build Tigris. Add another tally to you being wrong. Add that to you being wrong when you said a large amount of the player base doesn't interact with the mod system or the tenno school. 

Your builds are both crap, though, and done purely with the intent of maxing out the paper DPS values on the Warframe Builder app. You are also ignoring the fact that the Tigris Prime's status is raw damage too, as its status is mainly Slash. Also, where did I ever state that the player base doesn't interact with the modding or Focus systems? That too is a blatant lie.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Ooh, only the point where you said DE doesn't visibly try to make their old arsenal obsolete.

I mean, they clearly don't, otherwise they wouldn't be updating it with buffs.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When they very clearly do in almost every regard to a player's gear.

... in almost every regard? Please, name a few.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Or the point where you said Progression isn't a key driving point of the game. 

I suggest you learn to read properly, as I stated that power isn't the key driving point to our progression. It's in the quote I gave, too, so you really have no excuse for this.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The game now has 2 versions of what could be considered Excalibur Prime. Warframe continually releases new and stronger weapons to turn into a prime weapon, locked behind a mastery rank gate that requires progression to unlock normally. Leveling up mods, collecting stronger mods (such as adaptation, rolling guard, rivens, etc is a progression path since the difference between a mod like Point Blank and PRIMED Point Blank is a massive boost of raw damage on every shotgun. And you never even admit to being wrong on every single one of these points. 

You shift the subject so you don't have to address it. 

Are you going to pretend you didn't say that? Cause if you deny ever saying that, that would make you a liar. Considering your posts were deleted? You don't have much credibility. 

You rather visibly snipped my quotes completely out of context, given that I was talking about Flawed mods, subsequently corrected myself by pointing out I was running by outdated information on Excal Umbra, and the last quote clearly shows I acknowledge the existence of Primed and Riven mods, even though I question the hype around Riven mods when used on certain weapons. Your quotes do not support the things you are insisting I said, which I am telling you I have never said and clearly do not believe in. Your obsession with putting words in my mouth is embarrassing, to say nothing of how pointless and harmful it is to productive discussion.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 You need to explain how other the numerous weapon examples I have brought up aren't power creep, as the entire basis of your argument depends on it. 

They aren't, and have been challenged already by other users that you, once again, conveniently ignored. Also, how does "the entire basis of [my] argument" depend on the existence of recent power creep? Whether or not that is the case, the fact remains that the game does have power creep, that this is harmful to its diversity of choices, and that it is entirely possible to reconfigure our progression to focus entirely on options, rather than increases in power. You are clearly parroting back expressions you've read without actually understanding them.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You have failed to explain why and how the game isn't tied to progression as its main focus when Mastery Rank gives direct access to stronger Weapons, Riven Mods, quests and a good chunk of the game cannot be experienced without it. 

... where did I say the game isn't tied to progression? Progression is essential to the game, and I don't see why I would ever disagree with this when I am advocating a purely horizontal means of progression.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The fact of the matter is, you blatantly ignore or are totally ignorant to the system and pretend it isn't there while you continually shift your argument. Quests are tied to Mastery Rank, which means players need to progress mastery rank to get the tenno schools, which gives them an increase in power. The quests then give them access to new warframes mods and weapons, like the Umbra melee mods which offers the highest crit boost mod for melee as well as a stronger more powerful Excalibur that fights beside your operator.7

What you call "shifting my argument" is rather visibly simply you accusing me of things I've never said, then accusing me of "shifting the argument" when I point out that I not only never said the things you accused me of, but that your accusations make no sense. Notice how I am continually restating the points you are accusing of denying, for example, and how I've pointed out that you've ended up agreeing with me despite your best efforts.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 That's why you WON'T attempt a counter point, because you do not have a Counter point to those weapons. Our original argument was on the basis of enemy scaling, which I defended as being fine as the game gives you ample tools to mitigate and enough power to deal with any enemy in the game, (A point to which you agreed with, and every games that is mmo or an mmo lite follows. (Yes every game gives you certain specified tools to defeat, mitigate or negate enemies through healing, weapons and etc,) 

So you lead this entire argument down a rabbit trail as you claimed the game's focus wasn't about progression, power creep, and so on, so that you could get to the point where you shill for you entirely nonsensical mod rework. 

Or, rather, I pointed out that enemy scaling did not represent difficulty, and that your attempts to brag about how you had no problems dealing with such "difficulty" where thus shallow and irrelevant to conversation. You visibly took great offense to this, to the point where you decided to make this argument personal, and piled on lie after lie in order to slander me, all the while entirely missing the point of the conversation. One can clearly retrace the posts that remain and see this.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I get that you think your mod rework is a good idea.Fact is? It's not, and it's not going to happen. 

Care to elaborate on this?

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Actually, Mr Requirements pretty blatantly correlate to a weapon's power. The higher the MR, the higher the damage will be in probability. Soma and an Acceltra pretty accurately demonstrate how you are wrong. Soma, Mastery Rank 6. Acceltra, Mastery Rank 8. Soma does a total of 12 damage a shot. Acceltra does 79 damage a shot on direct hit and explosion. The Acceltra has higher raw damage, and higher critical chance. These weapons serve the same purpose. To be a crit based assault rifle.

The other flaw in your argument? It's not a linear upgrade. It's an exponential upgrade. The strongest Soma build I can find ? 12,497.400 Burst Dps. The Acceltra? 229,092.485 Burst Dps. 

It's not a linear upgrade. That's 18x the damage. You need a fact checker installed, or an understanding that when a weapon has double the damage over a previous version, the weapon gets multitudes stronger as the mods on that weapon scale the damage ever higher, especially on a crit weapon like these.  

Sure, and the Lato Prime, locked at MR 14, is vastly inferior to both. Similarly, the Ferrox is inferior to the Acceltra, and there are many more examples of weapons with higher MR locks being inferior to lower-MR weapons. What you fail to realize here is that your statement would only be true not simply if it had examples, but if it lacked enough counterexamples. Thus, the fact that there are numerous counterexamples, to the point where the actual examples are in the minority, proves you wrong.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Actually, I agreed that the Tigris Prime was the strongest Status weapon, and laced nuance in that. There are weapons that surpass it, as I noted. 

Your response carries no relevance to the quote it answers. It's time to stop obsessing over the Tigris Prime and start talking about horizontal progression.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

It's cute that you think Warframe is Overwatch, where diversity and different playstyles are everything, but that's not how progression works in an mmo.

... Overwatch? How does that relate to the subject of progression? Your response makes no sense, given that the progression I speak of is already how it largely works in Warframe, as described already, to say nothing of how stupid it generally is to shoot something down just because it hasn't been done before, particularly when discussing Warframe.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Let me correct you. You crave diversity, and can only speak for yourself or add that there are probably other people like you who do to. But in a game like Warframe, people want strength first, fashion second and diversity last. That's why the new content is often better, why new frame reworks are often stronger, why new mods are increasing our power, and why your entire point belongs in garbage can prime. 

But once again, the new weapons we get are rarely stronger than the ones we already own, and the same goes for new frames and mods, yet as you accidentally admitted, people don't only pick the strongest thing around, they also go for diversity. The only garbage here is the false narrative you insist on spouting against all evidence. People like diversity, which is different from being incentivized to accumulate power, and Warframe is already largely a game with a diverse array of gameplay, even if that gameplay is being mitigated by power creep. Deal with it.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

That's why people pay money to get access to Prime Weapons and Warframes, when in most cases, the Prime Access is merely stronger, superior versions of the gear people already have, ONLY BETTER LOOKING (USUALLY! Sorry Ash/Trinity Prime. De No hate me.) It's not the diversity they are buying, nor your bull$h*t that they are buying. It's power. No diversity in the Kuva Brakk over the Brakk. Or the Kohm over the Kuva Kohm. No real difference between the Nikana and Nikana Prime in terms of diversity. 

I mean, the Kuva weapons do offer different mechanics over the regular versions, but that aside, once again, you are confusing incentives with desires. DE sells Primes are pure upgrades over their base versions to sell them, for sure, but the fact that people do this even for weak frames, e.g. Nyx Prime, shows that even then, power is not the core driving factor so much as completionism, to say nothing of how the power increases on primed frames are typically marginal. The fact that cosmetics in general sell well is a sign that Primes themselves would likely not even need to be separate frames to sell, though the latter certainly helps prevent the worse-looking ones from performing poorly.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Diversity has only one strength, when it has power in a different situation, or when it's strength isn't too far off the other alternatives.

And this is bad... why? This also completely ignores the benefit diversity presents to replay value, as it is an obvious fact that having more valid playstyles to play means one is constrained to less repetition. This is critical in a game like Warframe, which makes players play for thousands of hours, and has routinely induced burnout in its playerbase when its gameplay has been too repetitive and samey.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

So once again? Wrong.

Wrong... about what? About how diversity is good to the game?

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Try not to get your posts deleted this time. 

You first. The fact that you also had even more posts removed than I did, as noted by my double response on page 7, should itself be sufficient indication that you are perhaps the least well-suited among any user to make the above kind of comment. As can be seen two posts above, I am also trying to stay on-topic by discussing ability mods and alternatives to our current system, whereas you've done nothing wholly confine yourself to your sad, obsessive vendetta. So tell me: what are your opinions on ability modding? What do you think of the model proposed in that fan concept thread?

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5 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

has this now become a exergis tigris discussionthread  ?

It'd be interesting if it was a horizontal vs. linear progression thread. In theory, that's what's really being discussed, but ... only in theory. Accepting that Warframe has a lot of linear progression and power creep, we could be discussing the question of whether that's a bad thing like Teridax68 seems to think, how it might be avoided and what it'd take to make people keep coming back to the grind if it wasn't there, and especially the implicit question I think was raised by the original post, which is what level of spammy destruction we'd actually want frames to be pinned to if so. Like, damage numbers and enemy levels are just a means to an end - whether an ability is "room-clearing" and what degree of ability "spam" is just how casting works in Warframe and so on are not, those are meaningful expressions of how the gameplay of Warframe is actually designed. Which is why the thread started by being about range instead of power strength, since the former is mechanics and the latter is just scaling numbers. Should it be normal that I can equip two Magus Repairs on my Operator and, as long as I'm able to jump out of my frame, do so at any time for an 80% heal after one second?

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vor einer Stunde schrieb CopperBezel:

Accepting that Warframe has a lot of linear progression and power creep,

linear = strong, horizantal = same (but different) ? --> just want to understand it correctly

isnt powercreep always together with progression ? how would someone feel stronger with 2k hour (min maxed gear, god riven and best arcanes) to someone that has 200h with basic equip when the diffrence is 10% more dmg.

then the problem with powercreep aswell is how warframe scaling works. since amorr and dmg of enmies scale ~exponetial. And since it has no end it makes it srsly more difficult to balance

vor einer Stunde schrieb CopperBezel:

which is what level of spammy destruction we'd actually want frames to be pinned to if so. Like, damage numbers and enemy levels are just a means to an end - whether an ability is "room-clearing" and what degree of ability "spam" is just how casting works in Warframe and so on are not, those are meaningful expressions of how the gameplay of Warframe is actually designed. Which is why the thread started by being about range instead of power strength, since the former is mechanics and the latter is just scaling numbers. Should it be normal that I can equip two Magus Repairs on my Operator and, as long as I'm able to jump out of my frame, do so at any time for an 80% heal after one second?

as of now yes it is what you should expect. Warframe over last years went form "survival" stealth-ninja shooter (or camping with cc + needed 100% trinity to keep energy goind). To a even the most squishy frames being able to leiszurly walk around in a lvl 150 mission and facetank enemy bullet storm for a while (then heal up in seconds magus elevate/ repair, while ccing targets around you lockdown/anomaly) and go back to facetanking everything.

then looking at melee weapon class rework, before 95% weapons were bad/ unsuable in lvl 150 missions. now the most basic equip manages to kill a lvl 150 enemy.

  • atm primary and secondary still lack in that regard showing a extreme difference between good and bad weapons

regarding dmg on waframes those only become relevant because of specific interactions/ dmg types. Most warframes themself deal abyssmal low dmg vs later lvls, so instead of a generic overhaul that would hit every warframe, i think just hitting those few expections is a better ontake to that.

to make scaling reasonable (enemy and own) warframe just needs give a) diffrent starting points (for enemy scaling) b) a max lvl (example 2h survival/ x defense rounds, x interception rounds = end --> get special reward) having an end and as such an end lvl --> is not sth bad !! abusing certain mechanics so u 2h mot solo doesnt make you suprior to others, neither its especially diffifuclt (just a gigantic time investment for no actual reward)

warframe and weapon scaling (with new introduced baseline --> below): forma + catalyst/reactor (catalyst + exilus + 5 forma = +7 lvl --> 4 ability upgrades (4th lvl is state of ability now + - small adjustments, 3 warframe base stats upgrades + lvl "37" giving upgraded "max lvl" bonus)

for weapons: 5forma + catalyst + exilus = 7x upgrade (base stats, only a bit) --> add weapon gilding (125k standing --> depending on faction/syndicate get upgrade in x stat + syndicate effect (or better upgrade for cetus/fortune)

---> time investment into sth makes it stronger.

for this the question would be what do you make the baseline for sacling: 

  • enemy scaling armor and dmg some starting point (exponetial)
  • warframe armor scaling (expoential, then flattens after 700 armor), warframe base hp/ shield (differences)
    • how do u balance enemy dmg between inaros (gets to have redicuolus effective hp) and mag so both have an engaging game expierence ?
  • warframe abilites that buff (multiplies the dmg by weapons --> even greater disparty between good and bad weapons) or grant dmg metigation (-->stacks with adaption, and armor dmg reduction
    • even worse problemantic with group buffs
    • also auras (4 corrosive projection stripping 100% armor --> should probably work like corrosive proc, or value tuened down so its max possible to get 99% armor reduciton with 4 corrosive + 4 coaction drift)
  • Whole warframes: chroma, octavia, gara, saryn, (limbo?), (mainly newer warfrmaes that often have buff + dmgreduction + debuff/cc + aoe (atleast 2 out of them are always present)
  • Rivens adding factor x for more gamebreaking (its ment to "auto"balance good and bad weapons, what its used for is make good weapons even stronger)
  • Modscaling being nearly always % (if its not its absolutly trash atm) --> it makes it redicoulus difficult to balance numbers (as the base diffirence in dmg or stats always gets amplified, so strong get stronger) --> warframe health/armor, weapon dmg
  • arcanes (95% god tier trash useless --> 5% game breaking op) --> also them being opend up (how you aquire them from now to before --> standing and/ eidolons which are far more frequently/often played then the raids before (so it became more of a baseline to have x arcane)
    • arcane avenger, guardian, energize, (those arbitration dmg mods (melee/primary)
    • magus elevate, repair, lockodwn, (anomaly?)
  • some mods being op (adaption --> as long as you have basesurvivability so u can tank 3-4 hits its godtier broken)
  • focus school:
    • vazarin protective dash 5 sec invuerbiltiy + 60% max hp regen over 5sec
    • zenurik: temporal blast, energizing dash, energy orb gives additional energy
  • operator voidmode (free invis + moventment + warframe is invunverbal during that time)
  • aoe weapons: often only downsight is self dmg (somewhat low reload, low fireate) --> good crit, good status. great base dmg ---> who cares for fireate and reload 1 is enough to kill 20 enemies anyway
    • compare this to alot of primaries, they lack dmg, (some have rediclious) high reload, low crit

after all this is done. you can start looking at warframes dmg capablites (how much dmg does x ability do for x amount energy used)

-----> Spoiler: some ideas to the above ( attempts to fix that )

Spoiler

 

  • its so #*!%ing easy to upkeep energy without even useing 1 energy pizza, even while spamming abilites. (depending how much worse it got, you could keep more range for ability area or strength, or reduce it. --> what i am against is changing the % stat on those (its probably better to just change base value) if mods are changed thats affect every warfrmae, even those that are not strong atm so these are even worse (or need compensation buff)
    • range espically tricky to change (differnece in maps, and layout. you could get quick corpus defense or the one that has the big open space in the middle, or "free-roam maps")

 

idea

(weapons and warframes) --> feeling is more lineary, everything tends to have a smaller difference in base stats (even more when mods that give base stats, become flat (armor, health, energy, shield, weapon dmg, (fire rate/attack speed ?)), --> progression part comes now aswell from investing time (forma,...) on sth which enhances its base stats. Riven would then be the rng roll machine to make it unique / really good (you can narrow the riven dispostion better, as all weapons are closer together to begin with)

---> difficulity to adjust dmg between weapon types (create more weapons types, make base dmg mode around the weapon class its put on (example: serration on sniper: 1200 dmg; serration on assult rifle : 300dmg on launcher (tonkor, ogris,...): 700dmg)

Enemy scaling: every planet has own base stats (more generally speaking for missions between 1-80 (starting lvl) every 10 lvl it gets own base stat --> (lvl 1 endless, scales differntly then lvl 80 endless) --> since it comes along with junctions or quest, you can take a new baseline for that planet (mods (what you own, rank) x forma, catalyst, reactor,.....) into the equation to adequatly set starting lvl --> highest voidsection (max mods, primed mods, 2 forma, catalyst/reactor,...)

to add on this --> i am sad that there only so few corpus enemies (cetus, mars, zombi, kuva grineer, PoE grineer, but only corpus and orbvallis corpus (it gets even worse with infected and corrupted)

arcanes: make then more likely but reduce usefullness when triggered, or specify the trigger effect but upgrade effect (example guardian: on dmg --> active always; value from 600-150, acane energize --> reduce energy orb drob chance (and health orb drop chance overall), half effect quality (you gain half energy) or just --> 150% energy gain from every energy orb (passive)

focus school: tune mentioned stuff down (just a small bit) --> energizing dash: max. 3energy/sec 30 sec, vazarin protective dash: 3sec invunerbility 50% max hp regen ----> while in operator mode warframe is immune to status effects (new ones getting inflicted not the already inflicted ones) and es dealt 10% of dmg (but threat lvl is majroly reduced) --> operator in voidmode is not affected by energy pads (like all drain/channel abilities)

dmg reduction and dmg buff abilities tuned down by atleast half (or dmg reduction cap, besides some special cases being ~75% --> starting point ~30%), dmg buff abilities should maximaly reach  ~300%, or make some not be affected by strenght at all (4th ability lvl could be used to give those then a better boost) -->(also not by duration lookin at gauss)

adding more lifelyhood to missions, more frequent invasion, assasination note target showing up in ur sabotage mission to interrupt you. more mini bosses (i think orbvallis did this part good). Give them special weak points, combo interactions (parazon, operator, consumables (traps (like the siphon thing for scan targets, just for those minibosses depnding on humanoid, robotic, infested). make the ship have more commands and implement them into those features aswell (a bit like the key mechanic of derelic runs), if you dont have that on you, x is more difficult to kill as the "finisher sequenze" cant be started.

--> we have stem kits in warframe (they are goddamn awfull) give those things an actual usefull feature --> increases warframe base hp/ amor whatever by 20% over duration of mission. so in endless runs with now different scaling (starting and end) you may want to consider to use them. --> on this note, decrease amount of consumables (25x heal, 25x energy) --> for open world can be refreshed after starting new bounty, for endless refreshes every 2 (+1rounds for every additional squad member) (--> solo: 10 wave; 4squad: 25 waves defense)

--> some could be created for weapons (elemental buff for x seconds --> 30% of weapons dmg is now x elemental (doesnt combine with ealready existing ones) --> has flat 50% chance to proc its status) --> while this all adds some powercreep again, those are relativly low effect and only work over a certain duration (lets say a mission)

--> the overall interactivity and livelyhood of a mission would advance. brain would be able to compete (lol not really) with brute strength. gear (consumable) becomes more important /relevant.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your builds are both crap

Yawn and wrong. Those builds just don't agree with your narrative. The Tigris was clearly the typical slash and Status based build as mentioned. +1 to lying +2 to being disingenuous. Secondly, not my builds. These are the top builds I could find made public on warframe builder. It's cute how you are proved wrong, then shown how somebody else apart from either of us can mod a weapon, and you discredit it simply because its made a more diverse way then you would typically mod it. 

Your narrative has been proven wrong, and you have been proven a hypocrite. 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, they clearly don't, otherwise they wouldn't be updating it with buffs.

Wrongo. They update warframes so that warframe stays relevant. Otherwise DE doesn't really do weapon buffs unless its reworking the entire weapon branch.  The Melee rework is about the closest most recent example that comes to mind, and that made ALL melee weapons better, including the stronger versions of melee weapons (Such as Dragon nikana, nikana prime, fragor prime with its glorious 100% crit chance etc). You would have a point if Prime weapons were sidegrades, or functionally diverse versions of their counterparts, but they really are just direct upgrades pure and simple. Otherwise your point is proven wrong with how much superior newer weapons are to the old ones. Can't wait to see what Titania Prime brings us and how she spits on your argument. In fact, other then weapon reworks, I can only remember weapon nerfs when the vast majority only used one weapon type out of all the other options available. The catchmoon nerf kitgun is what I am referring to. 

But please, let me know when they Buff the Soma Prime to keep up with the Acceltra's damage. 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I suggest you learn to read properly, as I stated that power isn't the key driving point to our progression. It's in the quote I gave, too, so you really have no excuse for this.

And I told you, that unequivocally you were wrong. Dead wrong. Demonstrably wrong, and Hilariously wrong. 

2 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

isnt powercreep always together with progression ? how would someone feel stronger with 2k hour (min maxed gear, god riven and best arcanes) to someone that has 200h with basic equip when the diffrence is 10% more dmg.

I quoted this guy for you to read Teridax. I'm quoting him to make a point to you. (before you complain, I'm not talking to him. I'm talking to you with his quote.) 

Name me one example of a mmo or mmo-lite PvE game, where progression isn't the key driving point to progression. One example. If you said Warframe, you were wrong, as Mods, Mastery Rank, Endo, Kuva, and Tenno Schools are power driven progression. The only example I can give you? Anthem had a glitch where the level 1 weapons and abilities were the best in the game. They eventually fixed said bug. Otherwise that's the only example out of my wide and varying collection of games. 

The only games I can think of without Power Creep are PvP games like Overwatch, fighting games to keep balance, or certain survival games, but even then most survival games give you item progression with better ways to defend yourself or make things easier. 

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I suggest you learn to read properly, as I stated that power isn't the key driving point to our progression. It's in the quote I gave, too, so you really have no excuse for this.

... where did I say the game isn't tied to progression? Progression is essential to the game, and I don't see why I would ever disagree with this when I am advocating a purely horizontal means of progression.

You either have no self awareness, or your critical thinking is so lousy you didn't even catch how you contradicted yourself mere sentences apart. I applaud you. Best contradiction yet. 

So in one sentence you say that Power isn't the key driving point, ignoring how weapons and warframes grow more powerful as a direct cause of leveling them up (Leveling up is basically the MOST BASIC method of progression.) Then you say the game isn't tied to progression.

The next you say the game isn't tied to progression. Like you pretend Warframe abilities don't rank up and get stronger as you level, or that weapons don't get more powerful as a result of leveling them up (Even multiple times. )  Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? I'm no expert, but this sounds like astounding example of it. 

Well if power isn't the key driving point to game progression, how can the game have progression be essential to the game? Progression is the process of getting better and better. Power comes from progression. That's like saying a race car engine isn't essential to race progression, when it is legitimately entirely responsible for making the vehicle move. Power is what makes keeps warframe alive, and has it grow as a game. Power is Warframe's engine. It's what moves you to progression.

If you are too dumb to figure it out, I'll give you a a hint. The base starchart. The enemies get progressively stronger going from level 1 enemies all the way to 30. As you go through the star chart, you cannot help but level up. Your abilities cannot help but get stronger as complete missions. 

You can try to avoid picking up mods, to make your arsenal stronger, but unless you delete mission rewards, as you unlock junction after junction? Unless you are actively fighting back against the game, you are directly being driven by power progression to get stronger as you attempt to defeat enemies getting stronger and stronger. 

Starting off with a Mk1 Braton or a Mk1 Paris? You fight low level enemies. By the time you unlock the entire star chart, Me thinks the power in your hands is a bit greater, and a bit more then "diversity" when you are fighting level 32 enemies. (A level 32 crewman has 10x the health of a level 1 crewman. 

Progression, and by a matter of fact, power Progression is the key driving point to the game, as the game forces you to get stronger, or denies content, from you. You either progress and get stronger, unlocking better weapons, warframes, and etc. Or you get stronger then progress. There's no way in warframe to do one, without the other. 

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You rather visibly snipped my quotes completely out of context,

Nope. This is a pitiful attempt at deflection, as you have lost the point and proceed to back track. You also fail to note the power progression going from flawed mods, to say something like flawed continuity with its 12% or so effect, to Primed Continuity that gives 55% power duration. Nearly 5x stronger then the first version given in the tutorial. 

Also, I can't find your original quote since somebody got the majority of their posts deleted. I can't even quote some of your more Wrong quotes for you. 

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

how does "the entire basis of [my] argument" depend on the existence of recent power creep? 

because power creep is neither recent. Nor is power Creep independent. Power Creep has been a stable of the game since it first came out, and has the game grown as a result. Any upgrades in the game either come from a new mission, a new mod or weapon locked behind something. The game has gone out of its way to lock stronger weapons behind higher mastery rank walls so people don't get strong weapons too early. Opticor and the Vectis for example being rebalanced to higher MR so people who get them have a far more distinct progression. 

When somebody buys a prime access, they are directly buying power and bypassing the wait of progression. They don't need to be the appropriate MR, or farm for those superior weapons or warframe. 

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... Overwatch? How does that relate to the subject of progression?

Overwatch is a game without progression. It's an example of characters who have no direct way of getting stronger or weaker on themselves. The characters have certain stats, and only skill changes. There is no real character progression where your character gets stronger. You simply play better, or don't. It's a game without any power progression. 

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, and the Lato Prime, locked at MR 14, is vastly inferior to both. Similarly, the Ferrox is inferior to the Acceltra,

But once again, the new weapons we get are rarely stronger than the ones we already own, and the same goes for new frames and mods,

And the Acceltra is the most recent weapon. As I mentioned, its incredibly superior to the Soma. Now, if you used your brain, you would recall that I said not every weapon is greater then the last, but new weapons are commonly and often vastly superior to old weapons. 

Your bottom sentence is wrong. New weapons are rarely stronger then the ones we already own? Alright, you are either stupid or lying. If that is true, please tell me how the Acceltra, Kuva Braama, Kuva Nukor are not stronger then the old weapons we already own. 

Please, do enlighten me. How is the Kuva Bramma the newest  bow in the game not stronger then the bows I already have. If your answer is about any other weapon not a bow? You lost the argument. 

New weapons are "rarely" stronger. LMAO. Right right. I'll just pretend that every new Prime weapon, Vandal weapon, wraith, kuva, and mara weapon never existed. 
 

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You first. 

Wrong, but that's cute. I see the majority of my responses, while a good bit of yours were Thanos snapped into oblivion. I can see many posts where other people and I were talking about your posts, and all content is removed entirely. 

Once again? Try not to get your posts deleted this time. And try not to spread information that is easily and readily available to be proven wrong. 

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12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, the Kuva weapons do offer different mechanics over the regular versions, but that aside, 

And this is bad... why? This also completely ignores the benefit diversity presents to replay value, as it is an obvious fact that having more valid playstyles to play means one is constrained to less repetition.

To address your last few points, the Kuva weapons function nigh identical to the original version of the weapon (if there is one, just has added layers on it that make them stronger weapons. This is a point that you concede. 

Secondly, I never said Diversity was bad. But then your reading comprehension is so poor, you somehow come to the conclusion I said it was bad. Then despite this, you fail to recognize weapons are stronger then each other in different ways and variation. Seems like you fail to understand what makes a different playstyle Valid. 

A Valid alternative is one that doesn't necessarily deal as much damage, but somewhat in the same range of damage. DE could make the most functional perfect weapon ever conceived, but if it's damage is low and the weapon doesn't have the same power of other weapons? It's not a valid weapon. 

Also, Nyx was one of the frames ruined by excessive nerfs cause people whined about power creep. I miss her absorb being able to store millions of damage. 

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11 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

It'd be interesting if it was a horizontal vs. linear progression thread. In theory, that's what's really being discussed, but ... only in theory. Accepting that Warframe has a lot of linear progression and power creep, we could be discussing the question of whether that's a bad thing like Teridax68 seems to think, how it might be avoided and what it'd take to make people keep coming back to the grind if it wasn't there, and especially the implicit question I think was raised by the original post, which is what level of spammy destruction we'd actually want frames to be pinned to if so. Like, damage numbers and enemy levels are just a means to an end - whether an ability is "room-clearing" and what degree of ability "spam" is just how casting works in Warframe and so on are not, those are meaningful expressions of how the gameplay of Warframe is actually designed. Which is why the thread started by being about range instead of power strength, since the former is mechanics and the latter is just scaling numbers. Should it be normal that I can equip two Magus Repairs on my Operator and, as long as I'm able to jump out of my frame, do so at any time for an 80% heal after one second?

I mean, horizontal vs. linear progression is also the discussion I'd like to have: my point here is that I do think power creep itself is inherently bad in that it damages diversity when options get power crept out of viability, without the creep presenting any benefits. Vertical progression, on the other hand, does have the distinct benefit of making the player feel like they've progressed, because they're better at the same thing they used to do. Problem is, this basically means the game becomes easier, and in a game that expects the player to redo even starter content many times, and so long after they've explored the entire Star Chart, this itself contributes to boredom when the player is made to run missions that have become trivial. Horizontal progression, on the other hand, does get to contribute to a feeling of progression (one gets to add a tool to one's arsenal), but assuming generally okay-ish balance that avoids power creep, also contributes positively to diversity of play without making the game easier, since the player would have more options, but wouldn't be made strictly more powerful than before with any given loadout.

I also agree that ultimately numbers on either side are a means to an end, though that also should invite us to examine what it actually means to increase our numbers: our ability ranges, for example, are measured against a static environment, and in many cases increasing range can be the difference between covering a portion of a room, and several rooms at once. Similarly, duration can make the difference between twenty seconds and a minute on an ability, which is a major difference in time. This creates breaking points past which increasing our range, duration, etc. becomes unhealthy to gameplay, which is why I think it's worth questioning the entire stat-based modding system we have, and not just pushing for nerfs. Efficiency is a stranger subject, as I think the core problem stems from the fact that our abilities should ideally be designed on the assumption that the player will try to spam them all the time (and should thus discourage mindless spam without forcing downtime), but are currently mostly designed as if their Energy cost were meaningful, which is rarely the case.

8 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

linear = strong, horizantal = same (but different) ? --> just want to understand it correctly

Indeed, typically vertical or linear progression is where the player gets statistically stronger than before, though doesn't necessarily have their gameplay altered (e.g. more health, more damage). Horizontal progression is about sidegrades, i.e. having more options that aren't more powerful than the ones you have, though do represent different gameplay: you might get a new sniper rifle that you can choose instead of your flame thrower, and in a perfect world, both should be equally balanced, yet both should also play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses. 

8 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

isnt powercreep always together with progression ? how would someone feel stronger with 2k hour (min maxed gear, god riven and best arcanes) to someone that has 200h with basic equip when the diffrence is 10% more dmg.

I mean, even if the difference were 0 damage increase at all, the difference would still be reflected in the size of the respective players' arsenals. A player who's just getting started might have a handful of frames and weapons, but a veteran is going to have the entire suite of warframes at their disposal, plus hundreds of available weapons. That's clearly a lot more choice, or at least it should in an ideal world, rather than the game's current state where most of those options aren't worth picking for more than the MR.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yawn and wrong. Those builds just don't agree with your narrative. The Tigris was clearly the typical slash and Status based build as mentioned. +1 to lying +2 to being disingenuous. Secondly, not my builds. These are the top builds I could find made public on warframe builder. It's cute how you are proved wrong, then shown how somebody else apart from either of us can mod a weapon, and you discredit it simply because its made a more diverse way then you would typically mod it. 

Your narrative has been proven wrong, and you have been proven a hypocrite. 

This is nothing but blanket denial, with the accidental admission that the builds aren't even the ones you use. +1 to lying indeed. Oh, and the reason I'm pointing out that the builds are awful is because Seeking Fury works significantly better on the Tigris Prime, and you're building the Exergis for some bizarre combination of Viral and Radiation, without also trying to make proper use of its status chance, which is higher than the Tigris Prime's. The only thing you've proven here is that you are ready to argue any sort of nonsense on even the most stilted of points in a desperate attempt to claim victory over something.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Wrongo. They update warframes so that warframe stays relevant. Otherwise DE doesn't really do weapon buffs unless its reworking the entire weapon branch.  The Melee rework is about the closest most recent example that comes to mind, and that made ALL melee weapons better, including the stronger versions of melee weapons (Such as Dragon nikana, nikana prime, fragor prime with its glorious 100% crit chance etc). You would have a point if Prime weapons were sidegrades, or functionally diverse versions of their counterparts, but they really are just direct upgrades pure and simple. Otherwise your point is proven wrong with how much superior newer weapons are to the old ones. Can't wait to see what Titania Prime brings us and how she spits on your argument. In fact, other then weapon reworks, I can only remember weapon nerfs when the vast majority only used one weapon type out of all the other options available. The catchmoon nerf kitgun is what I am referring to. 

But please, let me know when they Buff the Soma Prime to keep up with the Acceltra's damage. 

You just admitted that DE updates older content to stay relevant, and performs balance changes to equalize weapons. I rest my case.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And I told you, that unequivocally you were wrong. Dead wrong. Demonstrably wrong, and Hilariously wrong. 

Because... ? Behind all these hysterics, you don't seem to have anything of substance to say.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I quoted this guy for you to read Teridax. I'm quoting him to make a point to you. (before you complain, I'm not talking to him. I'm talking to you with his quote.) 

Name me one example of a mmo or mmo-lite PvE game, where progression isn't the key driving point to progression. One example. If you said Warframe, you were wrong, as Mods, Mastery Rank, Endo, Kuva, and Tenno Schools are power driven progression. The only example I can give you? Anthem had a glitch where the level 1 weapons and abilities were the best in the game. They eventually fixed said bug. Otherwise that's the only example out of my wide and varying collection of games. 

The only games I can think of without Power Creep are PvP games like Overwatch, fighting games to keep balance, or certain survival games, but even then most survival games give you item progression with better ways to defend yourself or make things easier. 

Warframe, for one, precisely because once again its progression is mostly focused around the unlocking of more options, rather than always increasing one's own power. It's actually not very difficult to cap out in power in Warframe, and we do so long before we stop progressing at all. The fact that you cannot establish a difference between progression and vertical progression betrays your inability to comprehensively view the point at hand. Incidentally, I gave an answer to the person who was asking a genuine question, which you've just unsuccessfully attempted to twist into a statement to suit your own ends.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You either have no self awareness, or your critical thinking is so lousy you didn't even catch how you contradicted yourself mere sentences apart. I applaud you. Best contradiction yet. 

So in one sentence you say that Power isn't the key driving point, ignoring how weapons and warframes grow more powerful as a direct cause of leveling them up (Leveling up is basically the MOST BASIC method of progression.) Then you say the game isn't tied to progression.

The next you say the game isn't tied to progression. Like you pretend Warframe abilities don't rank up and get stronger as you level, or that weapons don't get more powerful as a result of leveling them up (Even multiple times. )  Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? I'm no expert, but this sounds like astounding example of it. 

Well if power isn't the key driving point to game progression, how can the game have progression be essential to the game? Progression is the process of getting better and better. Power comes from progression. That's like saying a race car engine isn't essential to race progression, when it is legitimately entirely responsible for making the vehicle move. Power is what makes keeps warframe alive, and has it grow as a game. Power is Warframe's engine. It's what moves you to progression.

If you are too dumb to figure it out, I'll give you a a hint. The base starchart. The enemies get progressively stronger going from level 1 enemies all the way to 30. As you go through the star chart, you cannot help but level up. Your abilities cannot help but get stronger as complete missions. 

You can try to avoid picking up mods, to make your arsenal stronger, but unless you delete mission rewards, as you unlock junction after junction? Unless you are actively fighting back against the game, you are directly being driven by power progression to get stronger as you attempt to defeat enemies getting stronger and stronger. 

Starting off with a Mk1 Braton or a Mk1 Paris? You fight low level enemies. By the time you unlock the entire star chart, Me thinks the power in your hands is a bit greater, and a bit more then "diversity" when you are fighting level 32 enemies. (A level 32 crewman has 10x the health of a level 1 crewman. 

Progression, and by a matter of fact, power Progression is the key driving point to the game, as the game forces you to get stronger, or denies content, from you. You either progress and get stronger, unlocking better weapons, warframes, and etc. Or you get stronger then progress. There's no way in warframe to do one, without the other. 

Yeah, this pretty much confirms what I've said. You're establishing a deliberate confusion between all progression and vertical progression, ignoring the fact that horizontal progression is a thing. This is deliberate, because previously you acknowledged the existence of sidegrades and your interest in them irrespective of whether they were stronger than the strongest option.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nope. This is a pitiful attempt at deflection, as you have lost the point and proceed to back track. You also fail to note the power progression going from flawed mods, to say something like flawed continuity with its 12% or so effect, to Primed Continuity that gives 55% power duration. Nearly 5x stronger then the first version given in the tutorial. 

Also, I can't find your original quote since somebody got the majority of their posts deleted. I can't even quote some of your more Wrong quotes for you. 

So, by your own admission, you fabricated the quote entirely, yet still you think you can make any sure statement on the matter.  Yikes.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

because power creep is neither recent. Nor is power Creep independent. Power Creep has been a stable of the game since it first came out, and has the game grown as a result. Any upgrades in the game either come from a new mission, a new mod or weapon locked behind something. The game has gone out of its way to lock stronger weapons behind higher mastery rank walls so people don't get strong weapons too early. Opticor and the Vectis for example being rebalanced to higher MR so people who get them have a far more distinct progression. 

When somebody buys a prime access, they are directly buying power and bypassing the wait of progression. They don't need to be the appropriate MR, or farm for those superior weapons or warframe. 

Literally none of this is relevant to my point either, though, which suggests you have lost the plot on what we've actually been discussing (hint: it's not the existence of power creep, because we both know it exists). You are also merely repeating yourself, when it's been established that the existence of power creep does not itself imply that power creep is desirable, and in fact the fact that it was used since the game's beta as an incentive scheme suggests that it's time we moved on to more sustainable incentives: if the Braton Vandal makes us no longer use the Braton, that's adding a weapon reskin at the expense of the old version, so there is at best no change to our range of options. It thus stands to reason that the game would be a lot more interesting if the Braton and the Vandal did different, equally desirable things, as could be said for any weapon and its upgrade variant(s).

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Overwatch is a game without progression. It's an example of characters who have no direct way of getting stronger or weaker on themselves. The characters have certain stats, and only skill changes. There is no real character progression where your character gets stronger. You simply play better, or don't. It's a game without any power progression. 

It's also not a game where one customizes characters at all beyond their appearance, and its gameplay and progression systems are nothing like Warframe. It's not even the same genre. You really just picked some random example with only tangential relevance at best to the point.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And the Acceltra is the most recent weapon. As I mentioned, its incredibly superior to the Soma. Now, if you used your brain, you would recall that I said not every weapon is greater then the last, but new weapons are commonly and often vastly superior to old weapons. 

Your bottom sentence is wrong. New weapons are rarely stronger then the ones we already own? Alright, you are either stupid or lying. If that is true, please tell me how the Acceltra, Kuva Braama, Kuva Nukor are not stronger then the old weapons we already own. 

Please, do enlighten me. How is the Kuva Bramma the newest  bow in the game not stronger then the bows I already have. If your answer is about any other weapon not a bow? You lost the argument. 

New weapons are "rarely" stronger. LMAO. Right right. I'll just pretend that every new Prime weapon, Vandal weapon, wraith, kuva, and mara weapon never existed. 

I mean, I don't have to, because most of those weapons are outclassed. Once again, you yourself are admitting that your point is false, so I don't really see why you insist upon arguing it. MR requirements are clearly not an accurate reflection of a weapon's power level, certainly not relative to others at different MR locks.

10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Wrong, but that's cute. I see the majority of my responses, while a good bit of yours were Thanos snapped into oblivion. I can see many posts where other people and I were talking about your posts, and all content is removed entirely. 

Once again? Try not to get your posts deleted this time. And try not to spread information that is easily and readily available to be proven wrong. 

This is, once again, pure projection, as your responses to me were clearly "Thanos snapped into oblivion", and so to the extent where one of my posts has found itself responding to a response of yours that is now gone. Your lies here are, as you put it "easily and readily available to be proven wrong", something that you by the way have utterly failed to do, given that your posts list no actual evidence. You continue to argue lazily by treating your opinion as absolute fact, somehow believing this makes you seem correct, when in reality it does nothing but pile more ridicule onto your position on this thread. The fact that your replies continue to not carry even an ounce of relevance to this thread is icing on the cake.

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

To address your last few points, the Kuva weapons function nigh identical to the original version of the weapon (if there is one, just has added layers on it that make them stronger weapons. This is a point that you concede. 

"Concede" would imply I differed on the matter at some prior stage, which I never did. But if that makes you feel like you've managed to ever be convincing, sure, go ahead, I'll "concede" to you here.

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Secondly, I never said Diversity was bad. But then your reading comprehension is so poor, you somehow come to the conclusion I said it was bad. Then despite this, you fail to recognize weapons are stronger then each other in different ways and variation. Seems like you fail to understand what makes a different playstyle Valid. 

Poor reading comprehension is indeed the order of the day, as I never accused you of saying diversity was bad either; I simply pointed out you heavily undervalue it and dismiss it in the face of power creep, which you are praising for... which reason, exactly? Why exactly are you so attached to the idea of getting stronger, and why do you enjoy making weapons unviable through power creep?

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

A Valid alternative is one that doesn't necessarily deal as much damage, but somewhat in the same range of damage. DE could make the most functional perfect weapon ever conceived, but if it's damage is low and the weapon doesn't have the same power of other weapons? It's not a valid weapon. 

Agreed, which is why I see no reason for weapons to have a fraction of the damage they'd need to be viable. Numbers are ultimately relative, which means that it wouldn't be harmful if weapons were all rebalanced around some stable benchmark that could make them about equally powerful, and so when factoring differences in damage, crit, status, utility, and so on.

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Also, Nyx was one of the frames ruined by excessive nerfs cause people whined about power creep. I miss her absorb being able to store millions of damage. 

Nyx was buffed, actually, and fell out of favor because her niche of stalling games with pure CC is no longer desirable, and is done better by frames that do more. You don't get to lament the loss of her viability due to power creep when you have done nothing but advocate power creep at all costs.

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Nyx was buffed, actually, and fell out of favor because her niche of stalling games with pure CC is no longer desirable, and is done better by frames that do more. You don't get to lament the loss of her viability due to power creep when you have done nothing but advocate power creep at all costs.

Actually, it was a nerf disguised as a buff. Before Limbo, people would just play Nyx, use Absorb and sit at the defence objective not really doing anything and allowing people to go further into Defence missions at the time than DE wanted to. So to give her 'More Damage' and to disguise it as a 'buff', all shots done to the bubble (including allies) were done to make her explosion stronger BUT in turn would drain more energy, meaning that Nyx could no longer just sit at an objective and tank all the damage all day. 

They simply didn't want people to press 4 at an objective and then just AFK, which was quite prevelant when it came to pre-made squads for Defence objectives. 

EVEN AFTER THEN Pure CC was still desireable for a couple of years after. Hell, after the 'Nyx Buff' changed that, people were still using Vauban for pure Defence Missions in the Void when Void Keys were a thing. 

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On 2020-02-14 at 3:16 AM, vaarnaaarne said:

It's not really a problem with range and stats, it's a problem with the specific powers.

Ehhhh.  This was true back in the press 4  to win days.  But these days?  Range is more of a culprate to design issues in DE's eyes* than specific powers. Why do you think we suddenly have many things that rely on LoS?

On 2020-02-14 at 3:16 AM, vaarnaaarne said:

Also, no team comp meta pls, one of the best things about Warframe is how solo-friendly it is.

I agree to an extent.  But I still wish there was a legitimate reason/support for having actual team and comps mattering.  When I think back on the void days I LOATH the fact that I only saw the same 4 frames in the same tileset doing the same static defense mission for hours on end.  At the same time, I miss building a team comp.  The best we get of that these days is purely "who wants to be the farm bot."

I think a vast majority of content Should be soloable.  But I also think that base game needs a re write so mission structure isn't just "make enemy irrelevant."  It would be nice to have actual roles again rather than just choosing x frame that can do everything for you.  I both like and dislike that the game is basically "choose what fits your style."  If the gameplay was actually interesting and robust enough then yeah, having my own flavored killing machine would be fine.  But the gameplay is genuinely boring.  So playstyle choice feels less...impactful.

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