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@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!

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Well, the more base armor he has, the less % difference a flat buff makes on what remains. That is how armor works. Right now, either Steel Fiber or Scarab Armor pushes him over that magic 50% mark. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I disagree as its not as badly designed as say serration or the like. It only really benefits frames that can take a few hits to begin with. 

Now if the mod effected everything about a warframe, (Like Adaptation extended its effects to anything under the warframe's power..... Frost Snow globes getting 90% damage reduction/Iron Skin etc and so on... I could see it being bad just off the sense of it being massively overpowered. 

I kinda feel like the rifle equivalent would be a mod that quadruples your existing modded crit chance. Unquestionably better than Vital Sense if you have to just pick one, but also multiplying against it, and disproportionately powerful for a single slot, even if the lowest 20% of weapons by crit chance couldn't benefit from it. 

Most frames have some kind of damage mitigation, whether DR or armor, and can benefit from Adaptation, and it's better than almost any survivability mod once you break that threshold.

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2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I kinda feel like the rifle equivalent would be a mod that quadruples your existing modded crit chance.

Unless it worked like Blood Rush, that is. Adaption is a variable defense. The rifle mod would be either flat damage increase the more you shoot something or another increase to a major stat. 

Which kinda sounds awesome tbh

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I agree that nuker builds need to be nerfed even though i abuse the hell out of saryn, volt and equinox for that very purpose. However the fix for this is very very simple. Cap range at 190% and make it so offensive abilities can not pass thru walls Or even put it at the same value as efficency and cap it at 175% but i feel that would be putting it a little to low.

 

I am all for this gaming going to a required team composition based meta as i feel its what is needed to save the game outside of content.

 

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It's not really a problem with range and stats, it's a problem with the specific powers.

 

Also, no team comp meta pls, one of the best things about Warframe is how solo-friendly it is.

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The balancing of "nuke" frames like saryn in high lvls are not the fakt that it doesn't nuke the room, its the fakt that she get one shoot with out other frames to help or a more defensiv build. And its not saryn with her 100% cor status that benefits from this, its benshee and excal...

Also Armor is nothing that prevents nuke setups, then there is something called corrosiv protection....

In fact this change only affaktes rnd groups in mid high lvl like arbitration and makes this modes more open for other builds and weapons and it lowers the need of a pre made group. And maybe viral and gas becomes the new corrosiv.

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Put "Cool Downs" on Nuke abilities. Black Hole was another mistake. Nukes trivialise game content. 

Utilise combo's to build rage meters that augment Warframe abilities. Or Speed up cooldown rates because abilities could be partially earned not just RnG energy drops.

Give enemies the ability to parry and riposte to counter and maybe a ranged projectile dispel that maybe freezes/locks a random ability for a duration. 

They could crank up Exilus mod capacity +3 slots to put more worth into movement styles over raw power/survivability...-With the intention of endgame contender global Nightmare mode, with fixed level high tiered enemies.

Make CC frames matter here. 

Give universal Elemental damage mods, that trick out a Warframes abilities with a status augment meaning fire,ice,electric,cold,etc all the combinations as nightmare rewards. 

Trying to build more warframe build diversity within each frame to really personalise and increase a feeling of investment if not depth in players favourite frames.

Some Enemy armor could literally reflect a damage % of ranged attacks so as to check nuke warframes with their own damage.

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5 hours ago, WarRelic said:

Black Hole was another mistake.

I disagree entirely. Void Hole is the only thing that makes Rail Jack tolerable lol. I wouldn't play railjack without it. 

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10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because DE has clearly not made "better gear" than the Tigris Prime in years, and has not needed to in order to push their content, thus there is no need for power creep in Warframe to make items desirable. The fact that you're now trying to shift the goalposts by claiming the Tigris Prime is "only the best weapon in certain scenarios", when this does not prevent it from still being known as the game's strongest weapon, is itself a clear indication even you know your position is indefensible, which is why you're yet again trying to reframe it. 

I don't know how the two of you ended up agreeing with the comical premise that the Tigris Prime was just the best gun ever created, but it's very much beside the point, considering that UK's original point was that the bester-est versions of it came out after the merely best-est versions did, and considering that you do understand that power creep exists in Warframe and only disagree that it should, unless you've changed your mind on that point. 

Considering that any new game mode comes with rewards attached and is expected to be the best way to get the particular thing it's a farm for, so that Arbitrations made endo many times faster to farm, Onslaught became the go-to farm for affinity and faster than Eidolons for focus once the Lua Lens was a thing, etc., the linear progression that we both know and agree exists as a way to require grinding time for access to content has been progressively squished down to pile more things on top, while the easy access to cheap endo and kuva and focus and so on means that "good gear" means maximizing all of those things, and that means that new "endgame content" has to be satisfying even when it's played with all of that optimized gear available....

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10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, how did I improperly quote CopperBezel here?

You didn't, UK is just offended by details of formatting again (in this case, breaking up the quote and leaving the link only in one part instead of going to the trouble of copy-pasting it and removing the parts you don't need from each.)

If the two of you are set just insulting each other and making comments about formatting, could you take it to PM? I keep checking this thread when there's activity to see if someone's said anything about the topic but that hasn't happened in a few days. 

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45 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Er, no, I just in fact didn't reply to it. Look again, the first part of the quote was a normal linked quote for which I got a notification.

I was looking at the bottom quote that he just copy pasted, instead of directly quoting you. In all honesty, I think he edited it later to include the quote. But I could have honestly just missed it.

Doesn't really matter either way.

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Tigris Prime has been power crept in raw damage, meaning the Exergis is flat out better then Tigris Prime when it comes to raw damage output. The Exergis beats the Tigris Prime against Eidolons, Wolf of Saturn Six, etc. How many people use the Tigris Prime for Raid Bosses, Archwing Missions, and so on? Almost nobody. The individual pellets do hardly nothing, and proc immunity. So people go to a different weapon type. In that different weapon type? Chances are they are either using a Rubico Prime, a Vectis Prime, which are power crept versions of said Rubico or Vectis. 

You're actually comparing two weapons here that do actually quite remarkably different things. The Tigris Prime has a much higher pellet count than Exergis. This means that it can hit far more times than the Exergis. Great if you need to apply multiple status effects all at once or want to apply two Status Effects to a group of enemies (When combined with Punchthrough) OR want to stack and apply multiple status effects to one or more enemies (Such as Slash Damage due to it's ridiciously high damage) Meanwhile the Exergis has a base pellet count of two, which means it's more useful for perhaps taking out single use targets.

The Tigris Prime isn't meant to hit a single target with raw damage output. It's meant to hit a bunch of enemies with an incredibly high status output. If you can somehow mod it for mostly Corrosive + Heat and can still hit 100% Status pre-multishot, you're sitting there with a shotgun that applies a ton of Slash and a ton of armour strip. The Exergis' goal is indeed a single target shotgun, which is VERY different to the Tigris Prime. That's just one example. 

The game isn't just Eidolons or stuff like Wolf of Saturn Six. People don't go in with a STATUS weapon versus things that are IMMUNE to Status. People bring in Saryn to do Defence Missions and ESO, but they don't bring her to Eidolons. 

But if you want to strip Grineer Armour in a solo mission entirely? That Corrosive high pellet count Shotgun looks far more appealing than the two pellet Shotgun. Extra points due to Duplex Trigger on the Tigris also. 

27 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When it comes to only bows. Explain how the Bramma isn't power creep. If you can't counter how the Bramma has power crept bows without talking about a different weapon type, you have lost. The same is true for all other weapon types, (Snipers, melee, pistols, etc.)  Case closed. You've lost. 

 

Sure, I'll take the challenge. Lenz has a higher crit chance. Lenz can Orange Crit with one Point Strike + No Riven. Lenz also has guarantee Status in the form of Cold also, meaning more damage if you plan to use CO for whatever reason. Other Bows, like the Dread and Rakta Cernos, are silent allowing you to use them without alerting the enemy for certain missions/nightwaves/Riven Challenges. Dread also actually does quite a lot of damage. Lenz and Bramma are meant to be bows that can deal with massive crowds while the others are more single targetting.

Hell, if using your earlier example of 'Raid Bosses' such as Eidolons and I was forced to bring a bow, I'd probably go with Paris Prime or Dread. For Liches? Definitely a Bramma, since I like the bow. Hey look, different reasons to use different weapons for different options.

Hell, many people I know seem to still prefer Lenz over the Bramma. 

But ultimately certain weapons and tools are needed for certain things. You don't bring a Slash based Build into Lower level Missions and You don't bring a Status Weapon to a Eidolon fight. But you do bring stuff like Toxin and Gas versus Corpus (espcially with Augmented enemy Shields) and Corrosive versus Grineer or Slash + Viral against insanely high level enemies. 

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2 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

You're actually comparing two weapons here that do actually quite remarkably different things. 

Kinda the point. My entire point is that every weapon type gets stronger as time goes on. The shotguns get stronger, the bows get stronger, and the mods that we upgrade them with get better. 

When it comes to the Exergis, I'm simply comparing it to the Tigris to make a point. One that the Exergis does more raw damage and is a better weapon in certain scenarios. 

Teridax both refutes  cower creep, ignores all the prime gear that are upgrades from previous weapons, and denies that warframe is locked to progression, hence the weird examples at play.

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

When it comes to the Exergis, I'm simply comparing it to the Tigris to make a point. One that the Exergis does more raw damage and is a better weapon in certain scenarios. 

Worth pointing out that the Exergis does not in fact have a greater damage output than the Tigris Prime: the damage per shot is slightly higher, and the reload time slightly lower, but the Exergis has only one base shot, as opposed to the Tigris Prime's two. In the time it takes you to deal 1620 damage with the Exergis, the Tigris Prime can deal 3120. Additionally, the Tigris Prime's damage is heavily skewed towards Slash, which makes it make full use of its high status, whereas the Exergis has a mix of damage types, including Radiation, that don't make as good use of its status chance.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Teridax both refutes  cower creep, ignores all the prime gear that are upgrades from previous weapons, and denies that warframe is locked to progression, hence the weird examples at play.

So here are a few choice quotes showing that the above is a lie:

On 2020-02-03 at 12:43 PM, Teridax68 said:

That is true, but then the issue with that those stats don't just make content easier to run, they often do so by eliminating interaction with enemies entirely. Our map size doesn't scale with our warframe stats, for example, so if one can alter the range of a hard CC effect to span multiple rooms, for example, the end result each time is that we get to stop enemies before they even get to see us. Similarly, our abilities were originally meant to be balanced around some kind of meaningful cost that meant we couldn't use them with 100% uptime, but thanks to evolutions in the Energy economy, which Efficiency mods contributed significantly towards, 100% uptime is pretty much the norm, which also means 100% uptime on effects that grant some sort of immunity to enemies entirely, e.g. invisibility, invulnerability, and so on. When left unchallenged, these effects tend to make content trivial regardless of enemy stats, which is also why enemies over time have had ability resistance, status resistance/immunity, ability nullification, etc. added to their kits, to a great detriment in our agency. This is also one of the reasons why I'd like to tackle our ability stats, because I'd rather have a game in which we couldn't kill enemies we're sometimes not even aware of, but also didn't have our ability to move and act constrained, not even by enemy hard CC, which I also consider to be a cheap form of artificial difficulty.

On 2020-01-31 at 10:41 AM, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but this is also a clear example of why I'm not promising a panacea here, because enemy scaling is an entire problem by itself that needs to be addressed, whether or not one reworks our mods. Problem is, because as you said our modding is inherently balanced around us dealing with those kinds of scaling enemies, the two are intimately tied together: remove or rework enemy scaling without altering our current mods, and the game becomes completely trivial. Alter our mods to no longer turn us into gods, and suddenly we lose our tools to bypass an enemy scaling system that is itself fundamentally broken. I don't actually believe in implementing linear progression in Warframe, as I think our greatest, most enjoyable, and longest-lasting progress comes from the different frames and weapons we add to our arsenal (horizontal power, rather than vertical power), but it is an obvious fact that our current state of modding, as well as warframe design, weapon design, etc., is built to lean against enemy scaling, and that changing one will require altering the other.

And from the very first post I made on this thread:

On 2020-01-27 at 10:36 AM, Teridax68 said:

To some extent, I think modding as a whole needs to be reevaluated, because at this stage I feel it's had a largely detrimental effect to the game: bar the exceptions of some older warframes that have multiple builds, most frames and weapons have pretty much just one build, with little room for variation, and that even extends to elemental damage types, such that we all tend to output the same kind of damage in the same way. What mods fail to add in diversity, though, they add significantly in power... and so far that hasn't been a great thing either, because it's made our weapons, and more recently our frames scale to such ridiculous degrees that enemies need hundreds of times more EHP and damage to not be utter pushovers (and even then, they often still are). Effectively, while I do think modding should remain in some form due to the diversity it promises (though doesn't deliver), it should probably be overhauled so that we're not just stacking damage on top of more damage on weapons, or going for cookie-cutter builds on our frames that let us practically auto-win content up to a certain level. Part of the issue I think is that modding is done through generic stat increases, when already the mods people tend to be most interested by are those that offer more bespoke and unique bonuses: if there were less emphasis on generic stat mods, and more on fun mechanics to play with, or alterations to our existing ones, modding would likely start to feel much more engaging, and potentially more balanceable too.

So not only am I clearly not denying power creep or power gains in our progression, I am acknowledging them as a fundamental problem, as both are detrimental to our diversity of playstyles and the quality of our play. Putting aside the irrelevance of primes in a thread about ability modding, the crux of the point I've been specifically making is that I'd like to move away from a modding system focused around raising our stats, and towards one that instead gives us new mechanics to play with, or alters existing ones, in the style of augments. By contrast, this was your response when we were discussing enemy scaling:

On 2020-02-03 at 1:31 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Your argument that scaling shouldn't exist is a laughable one. You can voice that in your opinion enemy armor scales too high in certain regards, and that's fine. But no enemy scaling at all would make this game lose every and all intrigue. There would be no point to get new weapons or stronger gear anymore or mod after a certain point cause you'd already be insta killing every enemy forever with no threat of losing on the horizon. 

So this whole narrative that I'm somehow denying the existence of power creep is visibly one you only conjured up later in the argument when you didn't have an adequate response to a point, in stark contrast to our earlier exchanges. Given that most of your posts have been erased from this thread, I would suggest abandoning this obsession, and perhaps trying to engage in productive discussion on things that have actually been said, if that interests you at all.

On the particular topic of ability modding (and this might interest you as well, @CopperBezel), there was a recent fan concept thread that broaches the topic from a different angle, in that it suggests to give us a dedicated modding space for augments, and multiple augments per ability. In many respects, it illustrates the requests I posted here for an overhauled modding system, in that it puts a much greater focus on giving us new mechanics, or altering existing ones, over layering on raw power. My own take on it is that one could even just keep the augment-only mod slots, and do away with the rest of our current modding entirely, so that our choices boil down to a handful of really impactful mods to pick from for any frame (and the same system could be applied to weapons and companions). This falls back into the topic of balance, because doing away with our stat increases means we'd get to go back to a much more reasonable level of power. Because the focus of augments is to add gameplay, rather than just power, it also means we wouldn't need insane increases to our stats across the board for our modding to feel impactful. We wouldn't have situations where an ability oscillates being having too low a base range, or having far too much range when modded for it, because unless an augment were to specifically alter the ability's range, that stat would be untouchable.

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Worth pointing out that the Exergis does not in fact have a greater damage output than the Tigris

Except you'd be half wrong. The Exergis boasts greater single shot damage with punch through. The Tigris is a much better status weapon, but the Exergis wins in damage output especially to groups with built in punch through, The best way to build the Tigris Prime is a status build. The best way to build the Exergis is flat damage. When it comes to Eidolons and the like? The Exergis is the better weapon. (As you are building it with mods for greater raw element then the weaker damage of the dual status mods.) But you are trying to protect the Tigris Prime as your argument, as you have no other argument about power creep except it. 

I've asked you multiple times to explain how the Kuva Bramma isn't power creep among the bow weapons. You either never replied as you don't have a retort, you deleted the reply, or the reply was deleted for you. I'd ask you to do the same for the Nikana, Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime, but for both scenarios, you wouldn't be able to come up with a reasonable response without deflecting to a different weapon or weapon type. 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So here are a few choice quotes showing that the above is a lie:

That's quaint and all. Except those responses don't explain away the other comments you had where you contradicted yourself and said DE doesn't try to invalidate their old weapons. 

You still don't follow the logic that Prime Weapons are trying to invalidate their non prime counterparts. You still haven't explained how the Vectis, Tigris, Soma, Fragor, Nikana, Gallatine, Akstilletos, and Lex Prime aren't a visible attempt to make the non prime variants obsolete, with progression attached. (All aforementioned prime weapons have the same Mastery Rank Requirement or higher then the base version of the gun, for the means of significant progression. Example A being the Tigris Prime locked behind mr 13 while the Tigris is locked behind 7. You need more then double the mastery rank experience to unlock the Prime. 

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So not only am I clearly not denying power creep or power gains in our progression,

Yes you have. Otherwise you would realize your argument about the Tigris Prime makes no sense. Yet you cling to it as your only argument time and time again. 

You fail to understand that by the previous attempts at your logic, everyone would have stuck to one weapon and after a certain amount of time, nobody would ever need a stronger weapon then what they had. They would have gotten the best weapon and never bother with anything else. People would have stuck with their status build boltor prime, or their crit build soma prime. What else would they need? 

Except that progression, enemy scaling, different combat scenarios like the ones you have complained about (Wolf of Saturn Six, and Railjack Grineer) compelled players to seek stronger more powerful options to defeat a rising enemy level. (You know, Elite Sanctuary, and Arbitration spawn enemies at the highest levels from the get go of nearly any mission right now except final level kuva lich. 

You have shifted the goal post for yourself once again. Despite that, you will probably still attempt to defend your Tigris Prime argument, even though with your last sentence that argument no longer makes sense. The post you made about progression no longer being core to warframe's gameplay also no longer makes sense. 

You keep shifting your argument bit by bit and don't even have the honesty to admit it. 
 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except you'd be half wrong. The Exergis boasts greater single shot damage with punch through. The Tigris is a much better status weapon, but the Exergis wins in damage output especially to groups with built in punch through, The best way to build the Tigris Prime is a status build. The best way to build the Exergis is flat damage. When it comes to Eidolons and the like? The Exergis is the better weapon. (As you are building it with mods for greater raw element then the weaker damage of the dual status mods.) But you are trying to protect the Tigris Prime as your argument, as you have no other argument about power creep except it. 

I've asked you multiple times to explain how the Kuva Bramma isn't power creep among the bow weapons. You either never replied as you don't have a retort, you deleted the reply, or the reply was deleted for you. I'd ask you to do the same for the Nikana, Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime, but for both scenarios, you wouldn't be able to come up with a reasonable response without deflecting to a different weapon or weapon type. 

Please point to even a single example of people bringing the Exergis to an Eidolon hunt. A slight increase in base damage and punch-through does not compensate for an entire shot, which is what the Exergis is routinely built for anyway, to the detriment of all else. I also plainly explained that whether or not the Kuva Bramma is above or below in power relative to the Lenz is irrelevant, as it clearly has not supplanted the Tigris Prime, and you are only establishing an arbitrary distinction between weapon types in stark ignorance of the fact that anyone can pick whichever weapon type they want. Another user also made the case against the Bramma, which you conveniently ignored, just as you ignored the fact that entire pages' worth of your responses were removed. You would be wise not to repeat your mistakes.

Quote

That's quaint and all. Except those responses don't explain away the other comments you had where you contradicted yourself and said DE doesn't try to invalidate their old weapons. 

Such as? Please, once again, point to even a single example, as it is clear you are being entirely delusional, given that my literal first post in this thread clearly acknowledges and criticizes power creep.

Quote

You still don't follow the logic that Prime Weapons are trying to invalidate their non prime counterparts. You still haven't explained how the Vectis, Tigris, Soma, Fragor, Nikana, Gallatine, Akstilletos, and Lex Prime aren't a visible attempt to make the non prime variants obsolete, with progression attached. (All aforementioned prime weapons have the same Mastery Rank Requirement or higher then the base version of the gun, for the means of significant progression. Example A being the Tigris Prime locked behind mr 13 while the Tigris is locked behind 7. You need more then double the mastery rank experience to unlock the Prime. 

Why do I have to explain anything? Primes are clearly direct upgrades to their non-prime versions, a fact I have never denied, so I fail to see what you are expecting me to "explain" on the matter. The fact that these primes typically have higher MR requirements than their base versions does not prevent the fact that MR requirements do not usually correlate to the weapon's actual power.

Quote

Yes you have. Otherwise you would realize your argument about the Tigris Prime makes no sense. Yet you cling to it as your only argument time and time again. 

You fail to understand that by the previous attempts at your logic, everyone would have stuck to one weapon and after a certain amount of time, nobody would ever need a stronger weapon then what they had. They would have gotten the best weapon and never bother with anything else. People would have stuck with their status build boltor prime, or their crit build soma prime. What else would they need? 

Except that progression, enemy scaling, different combat scenarios like the ones you have complained about (Wolf of Saturn Six, and Railjack Grineer) compelled players to seek stronger more powerful options to defeat a rising enemy level. (You know, Elite Sanctuary, and Arbitration spawn enemies at the highest levels from the get go of nearly any mission right now except final level kuva lich. 

You have shifted the goal post for yourself once again. Despite that, you will probably still attempt to defend your Tigris Prime argument, even though with your last sentence that argument no longer makes sense. The post you made about progression no longer being core to warframe's gameplay also no longer makes sense. 

You keep shifting your argument bit by bit and don't even have the honesty to admit it. 

But you are projecting once again, and in fact here you are stating my own argument. The entire point to my argumentation is that, even in the current state of Warframe that is rife with vertical progression and power creep, players still progress well after the point where they've acquired the strongest weapon, or the mandatory mods, or the like, because the real mode of progression in the game is diversity, and not power. I in fact stated exactly this already:

On 2020-02-03 at 4:15 PM, Teridax68 said:

But it is this very response that is laughable, because you are framing the acquisition of new frames and weapons as linear increases in power, which is really not how it works. We don't acquire most weapons or frames because they represent a straight-up power boost, we play them because they offer different gameplay, and different toolsets to use in our missions. This is why players will go for frames that aren't necessarily top-tier, and the same with weapons, because they genuinely enjoy their playstyles. Warframe is fundamentally not a game about becoming infinitely more powerful, it's a game about accumulating a wide variety of different tools and toys to play with. Removing enemy scaling would not invalidate this, nor has enemy scaling ever contributed positively at all to the acquisition of gear.

Not only is it you, not me, trying to shift the goalposts in this argument, you're attempting to reverse our positions entirely, despite the fact that we're ultimately agreeing on the matter. The Tigris Prime may be the game's strongest weapon, but people pick more than just the Tigris Prime, because people like variety. This can apply to whichever extended subset of weapons cover all possible scenarios, and even you yourself admitted in a now-deleted response that you pick weapons for fun, and not simply for power. Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

Edited by Teridax68

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

A slight increase in base damage and punch-through does not compensate for an entire shot,

Yea wrong. One, an exergis build is more raw damage since you shouldn't be building status. So double the damage of dual status mods. Secondly, 2 enemies hit = more damage then a single target Tigris Prime. But here you go again, hopelessly defending this argument as you have nothing else to stand on. More raw damage, + higher increase of elemental damage = higher base damage overall per shot. 

Exergis Build 
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Exergis/t_30_42203030_166-3-5-167-7-3-171-0-5-178-2-5-191-5-3-482-1-10-847-4-5-892-6-10_171-6-482-7-178-8-166-7-847-5-191-7-892-8-167-9/en/2-0-126/221031/0

Tigris
http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tigris_Prime/t_30_22300000_178-1-5-191-4-3-264-7-3-330-6-3-357-5-3-359-2-5-482-0-10-847-3-5_482-7-178-8-359-6-847-9-191-7-357-7-330-7-264-7/en/2-0-96/232998/0

Raw Damage, the Exergis is twice the damage of  aStatus build Tigris. Add another tally to you being wrong. Add that to you being wrong when you said a large amount of the player base doesn't interact with the mod system or the tenno school. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Such as? Please, once again, point to even a single example, 

Ooh, only the point where you said DE doesn't visibly try to make their old arsenal obsolete. When they very clearly do in almost every regard to a player's gear. Or the point where you said Progression isn't a key driving point of the game. 

Quote

  On 2020-02-05 at 2:01 PM, Teridax68 said:

I mean, Umbra isn't really a direct upgrade for a few specific reasons, but technicalities aside, we're not getting increasingly primed versions of the same frame or weapon

[Mods quote snipped]

So a massively unpopular system most players don't substantially engage in at all, and abandon within the first few hours of play in a game they're expected to play for literal thousands of hours, is a defining characteristic of our progression system? How, exactly?

[Primed mods and rivens quote snipped]

Or, on the flipside, they're too expensive to use or aren't good on weapons with low disposition, and Primed mods only cover a minuscule subset of the mods we use. On top of that, the actual gameplay these mods provide is of questionable value, as Riven mods especially have been eminently criticized for being a thinly-disguised Plat trading ploy.

 

The game now has 2 versions of what could be considered Excalibur Prime. Warframe continually releases new and stronger weapons to turn into a prime weapon, locked behind a mastery rank gate that requires progression to unlock normally. Leveling up mods, collecting stronger mods (such as adaptation, rolling guard, rivens, etc is a progression path since the difference between a mod like Point Blank and PRIMED Point Blank is a massive boost of raw damage on every shotgun. And you never even admit to being wrong on every single one of these points. 

You shift the subject so you don't have to address it. 

Are you going to pretend you didn't say that? Cause if you deny ever saying that, that would make you a liar. Considering your posts were deleted? You don't have much credibility. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Why do I have to explain anything? Primes are clearly direct upgrades to their non-prime versions, a fact I have never denied,

 You need to explain how other the numerous weapon examples I have brought up aren't power creep, as the entire basis of your argument depends on it. 

You have failed to explain why and how the game isn't tied to progression as its main focus when Mastery Rank gives direct access to stronger Weapons, Riven Mods, quests and a good chunk of the game cannot be experienced without it. 

The fact of the matter is, you blatantly ignore or are totally ignorant to the system and pretend it isn't there while you continually shift your argument. Quests are tied to Mastery Rank, which means players need to progress mastery rank to get the tenno schools, which gives them an increase in power. The quests then give them access to new warframes mods and weapons, like the Umbra melee mods which offers the highest crit boost mod for melee as well as a stronger more powerful Excalibur that fights beside your operator. 

That's why you WON'T attempt a counter point, because you do not have a Counter point to those weapons. Our original argument was on the basis of enemy scaling, which I defended as being fine as the game gives you ample tools to mitigate and enough power to deal with any enemy in the game, (A point to which you agreed with, and every games that is mmo or an mmo lite follows. (Yes every game gives you certain specified tools to defeat, mitigate or negate enemies through healing, weapons and etc,) 

So you lead this entire argument down a rabbit trail as you claimed the game's focus wasn't about progression, power creep, and so on, so that you could get to the point where you shill for you entirely nonsensical mod rework. 

I get that you think your mod rework is a good idea.Fact is? It's not, and it's not going to happen. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The fact that these primes typically have higher MR requirements than their base versions does not prevent the fact that MR requirements do not usually correlate to the weapon's actual power.

Actually, Mr Requirements pretty blatantly correlate to a weapon's power. The higher the MR, the higher the damage will be in probability. Soma and an Acceltra pretty accurately demonstrate how you are wrong. Soma, Mastery Rank 6. Acceltra, Mastery Rank 8. Soma does a total of 12 damage a shot. Acceltra does 79 damage a shot on direct hit and explosion. The Acceltra has higher raw damage, and higher critical chance. These weapons serve the same purpose. To be a crit based assault rifle.

The other flaw in your argument? It's not a linear upgrade. It's an exponential upgrade. The strongest Soma build I can find ? 12,497.400 Burst Dps. The Acceltra? 229,092.485 Burst Dps. 

It's not a linear upgrade. That's 18x the damage. You need a fact checker installed, or an understanding that when a weapon has double the damage over a previous version, the weapon gets multitudes stronger as the mods on that weapon scale the damage ever higher, especially on a crit weapon like these.  

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

Actually, I agreed that the Tigris Prime was the strongest Status weapon, and laced nuance in that. There are weapons that surpass it, as I noted. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This can apply to whichever extended subset of weapons cover all possible scenarios, and even you yourself admitted in a now-deleted response that you pick weapons for fun, and not simply for power. Thus, a progression and customization system that focuses on diversity, rather than power, would make sense in Warframe, because players in general crave a greater variety of play, and only go for raw increases in power when the game incentivizes them to do so.

It's cute that you think Warframe is Overwatch, where diversity and different playstyles are everything, but that's not how progression works in an mmo. 

Let me correct you. You crave diversity, and can only speak for yourself or add that there are probably other people like you who do to. But in a game like Warframe, people want strength first, fashion second and diversity last. That's why the new content is often better, why new frame reworks are often stronger, why new mods are increasing our power, and why your entire point belongs in garbage can prime. 

That's why people pay money to get access to Prime Weapons and Warframes, when in most cases, the Prime Access is merely stronger, superior versions of the gear people already have, ONLY BETTER LOOKING (USUALLY! Sorry Ash/Trinity Prime. De No hate me.) It's not the diversity they are buying, nor your bull$h*t that they are buying. It's power. No diversity in the Kuva Brakk over the Brakk. Or the Kohm over the Kuva Kohm. No real difference between the Nikana and Nikana Prime in terms of diversity. 

Diversity has only one strength, when it has power in a different situation, or when it's strength isn't too far off the other alternatives. 

So once again? Wrong. Try not to get your posts deleted this time. 

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