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Vit0Corleone

Do primaries/secondaries need a buff?

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yeah you can really feel the diffrence when you start doing higher level railjack missions the enemies there have way to much health and armor so alot of weapons that are okay for sortie start to fall behind in there and its very frustrating when you spend an entire clip on a enemy when you could be chopping him up with a melee and it´s going to be so much faster and most likely kill any enemies near him aswell, especially in the tight corridors in railjack

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On 2020-01-26 at 6:48 PM, Vit0Corleone said:

In recent times, I've been increasingly depending more and more on melee for pretty much everything that is high level content.

That isn't to say that primaries/secondaries aren't able to do the job, but rather that melee is so OP currently, that ends up being the logical choice as primary means for dealing with most enemies.

I'm sure I'm not alone here, is this the general feeling around the community as well?

If so, do you think DE should consider buffing primaries/secondaries to balance things out?

 

You are missing the point. If melee isn't stronger than primaries/seondaries people would never use it. You sacrifice the safety of your distant attacks for more damage. Seems like a fair tradeoff.

You still can't outperform an Ignis Wraith at clearing starchart missions with any melee (no frame powers considered).

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2 minutes ago, NoMoreFAIL said:

You are missing the point

I'm missing my own point? *confused*

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1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I'm missing my own point? *confused*

You are missing the point of melee being stronger than other weapons.

You sacrifice range for damage and vice versa.

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I definitely noticed this in railjack stuff myself. In my case it feels like you can either go with the guns and take ages to kill the enemies or just one shot them with a heavy attack from <insert melee weapon here>. It was to the point where i stopped really caring what guns i brought and just went for fashionframe guns and just killed everything using melee. Apart from a few isolated cases involving frame powers and cheese its just not worth using guns against those enemies.

The guns really fall behind a lot faster than melee does, so at lower level stuff they still work perfectly fine. But get to like lv100-120 grineer (Or 90+ railjack grineer) and you're pretty much always better off using melee, doubly so on cramped maps.

So yes, primaries and secondaries need a buff in relation to the current melee weapons.

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13 minutes ago, NoMoreFAIL said:

You are missing the point of melee being stronger than other weapons.

You sacrifice range for damage and vice versa.

Sure, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Here, let me quote myself:

19 minutes ago, NoMoreFAIL said:

melee is so OP currently, that ends up being the logical choice as primary means for dealing with most enemies

I said this in this context of high level content ( railjack enemies are a good example as pointed out by others on this thread ), where almost always I'm better off using melee to handle enemies efficiently due to melee being OP currently.

It's not about being a trade off.

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melee has always been significantly stronger. the "range" is joke of a drawback when you can bulletjump everywhere. and block exists if you think you arent tanky enough. 

also the people who say stuff like "kuva ogris has a wide area" should be told that long reach melees exist. and more importantly, they dont do self damage of any kind. overall attack aoe of melees are much better than average gun.

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10 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

also the people who say stuff like "kuva ogris has a wide area" should be told that long reach melees exist. 

I do wish Explosive Primaries became good enough to be more Viable in high levels, Tonkor/Kuva Tonkor isn’t a exception. Can’t imagine how many Secondaries that’s better than most Explosive Primaries against very heavy Armored enemies.

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1 minute ago, GPrime96 said:

I do wish Explosive Primaries became good enough to be more Viable in high levels, Tonkor/Kuva Tonkor isn’t a exception. Can’t imagine how many Secondaries that’s better than most Explosive Primaries against very heavy Armored enemies.

explosive weapons are fun, but yeah i dont think they are that great as well.

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il y a une heure, NoMoreFAIL a dit :

You are missing the point of melee being stronger than other weapons.

You sacrifice range for damage and vice versa.

This is not even close to that. Pretty much any of my melee can deal with max lvl veil boarders, and not a single gun comes remotely close to that kind of power.

Yes, my rivened tombfinger can kill some stuff, but nowhere as fast as my non rivened reaper prime.

What you're saying should amount to a difference of maybe 20-40% between swords and guns, but that's more like a 300-400% diff we have now...

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3 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Sure, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Here, let me quote myself:

I said this in this context of high level content ( railjack enemies are a good example as pointed out by others on this thread ), where almost always I'm better off using melee to handle enemies efficiently due to melee being OP currently.

It's not about being a trade off.

I view that as a good thing. As I said if melee did less damage than ranged noone would use it.

I too use melee to deal with boarders in Railjack, specifically a heavy build Pennant to wipe the floor with them. I did however test Amprex and it was also incredibly good at turning them into dust.

My Kuva Brakk is still my go to weapon for wrecking crew ships reactors in less than a second.

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2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

This is not even close to that. Pretty much any of my melee can deal with max lvl veil boarders, and not a single gun comes remotely close to that kind of power.

Yes, my rivened tombfinger can kill some stuff, but nowhere as fast as my non rivened reaper prime.

What you're saying should amount to a difference of maybe 20-40% between swords and guns, but that's more like a 300-400% diff we have now...

Try Amprex, Exergis or Phantasma. I had no problems using those to clear boarders in the Veil Proxima with very good clear speeds.

Sure no ranged weapon comes even close to a heavy build Hate/Reaper Prime/Pennant etc but that's not a bad thing in my opinion.

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Melee is pretty powerful but so are pistols too. We need Primed crit mods for rifles. That’s what’s holding them back. I’m fine with powercreep but make it equal across the board so everyone can enjoy the weapons they like. 

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3 minutes ago, hendrix923 said:

Melee is pretty powerful but so are pistols too. We need Primed crit mods for rifles. That’s what’s holding them back. I’m fine with powercreep but make it equal across the board so everyone can enjoy the weapons they like. 

Only Primed Mod Primaries got is Primed Cryo Rounds so they are lacking when it comes to those kind of Mods badly.

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12 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I have a 40+% toxin kuva karak, the weapon is fine but the kill time is way slower than any melee I have.That is the point of the topic.
And if you are using some wf buffs this is not a test, test is without any arcanes, wf buffs, rivens and hunter munitions.
If you can kill lv170 with no outside buffs and rivens in a couple of bullets(half a magazine most) show it.

 

It's not a "problem" for me, I just agreed to the topic at hand, because it's a fact that primaries and secondaries feel weak compared to melee.

Yes I have done it (with 52% toxin Kuva Karak) without any damage boosts but I did have a riven which I'm sure you'll discount rivens unless it's on your melee weapon of choice to attempt to build your argument. We think that primary and secondary weapons as a whole category should not be buffed just to do the same damage as melee weapons. Melee weapons have a range limit while Rifles and Secondary weapons that are not shotguns or beam weapons effectively don't have a range limit.

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8 hours ago, Benour said:

                                                                                        Nothing will beat melee in DPS.

If you think that some sheety kuva karak (lol at that guy) or ANY primary/secondary (except snipers cause they have combo counter + Gas with Bane/HM) can outdps / do more kills per minute than melee you are simply r*******. Yeah that might be true in toddler difficulty and yeah with HM some weapons can scale decently even over 200+ armored enemies but thats just few weapons (and with riven ofc). Mostly weapons with enough base dmg and crit to be HM viable (snipers are perfect for this, Opticors, Chakkhurr, Prisma Grinlok, Zhuge prime, all bows and few others can do decent/meaningful bleeds). HM is literally saving grace for many crit weapons, without it primaries has literally 0 ability to scale and yet some clueless individuals are starting threads about HM being removed, smh.

Secondaries are "useless" (cant scale) only useful for stacking elements for CO melee or stripping armor if you go endurance. They good until like lvl 200 (most of them falloff MUCH sooner im being very generous here).

And even if you run 4x CP melee >>>>> primaries (except snipers as we learned before). If you think you gonna kill lets say lvl 500 with primary/secondary you are delusional.

If DE were to bend to your will and buff everything that's not melee to do similar damage as melee weapons what would be the point of using melee weapons to get close to these elusive level 200 mobs that 99.9% of the people that play this game will never meet? 

Lets take for instance the Kuva Orgis, it has 7 meters explosion radius. Mines with 56% toxin damage, Nightwatch Napalm, and a bad riven can deal 32000 Corrosive damage alone. Now if DE were to buff it to deal equal damage of your scaling melee weapons my Orgis would be able to deal 200k damage or more in one shot in a 7 meter radius! Why on Earth would I want to use a silly melee weapon ever again if I could just blow away anything not named level 150 Heavy Gunner or Bombard in one hit from half a map away?

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Yes I have done it (with 52% toxin Kuva Karak) without any damage boosts but I did have a riven which I'm sure you'll discount rivens unless it's on your melee weapon of choice to attempt to build your argument. We think that primary and secondary weapons as a whole category should not be buffed just to do the same damage as melee weapons. Melee weapons have a range limit while Rifles and Secondary weapons that are not shotguns or beam weapons effectively don't have a range limit.

Would like to also say I have a Kuva Karak, sadly low % and heat, but it also kills in less than 1 mag with only body shots, without a riven it's still possible but it needs some head shots, and I don't use HM either. The weapon also kills veil enemies quickly, only issue is the officers because corrosive doesn't work on them, and viral is better, but then the issue is viral is slower for the others. Outside of Veil, most enemies die instantly, and expecting all guns be buffed around level 500 enemies is silly. I can agree guns could use improvements though, but given DE doesn't actively encourage runs beyond 30/60 minutes, I don't see them balancing for much beyond 200 or 90 in regards to railjack.

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Do they really need a buff when the issue is the extremly beefy RJ  enemies?

Make them stronger and it effects the rest of the game as well.

Also, isnt DE changing armor scalling? Its still on paper, but if there is brainstorming enough to be mentioned in a devstream, then we might be getting adjustments without the need to buff the weapons.

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primary and secondary gameplay needs an update in both complexity and damage scaling.

complexity in the case that standing still should increase reload and holster speed while crouching or sliding should decrease spread and recoil. simple additions like that can improve the gameplay. instead, the developers offer us mods that provide these benefits. keep in mind that the developers can easily take away one aspect of melee and turn it into a mod. melee is lucky to have a mini-rhino stop with a heavy slam initially, while primary and secondary weapons still have to use mod capacity in order to have something as simple as improved recoil or holster speed.

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Il y a 14 heures, NoMoreFAIL a dit :

Try Amprex, Exergis or Phantasma. I had no problems using those to clear boarders in the Veil Proxima with very good clear speeds.

Sure no ranged weapon comes even close to a heavy build Hate/Reaper Prime/Pennant etc but that's not a bad thing in my opinion.

Yeah that's just what I'm saying (reading myself it wasn't clear), I can totally reliably kill max lvl boarders with my guns (also rivened amprex ^^). Thank god, lich hunting with melee is horrible for obvious reasons.

I don't have exact results, only pure feeling and memory, but afair taking about thrice the time to kill with guns than it takes with melee, not even counting when combo is built, is a bit overkill in terms of power disparity imho.

I also think melee should be stronger than guns, to justify the "shoving your face into a deathball of guns", but as you say, guns coming " not even close" to the best melee builds, is just too much. If guns don't even come close to melee, how do you justify using them ever ? All I can think of is status applicator, but since new CO, there's no real point in stacking 6 status on a target, and most of the time, you'd probably take less time just meleing the thing from the start.

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It's good to see people trying to balance the game.
I have no idea what is the "balanced" state they meant though.

As for me, if the enemy has high armor, I strip it.
if the enemy is weak to melee, I melee it.
if the enemy is weak to bullets, I shot it.
I won't bother trying to balance the game.
Asking DE to change anything will takes lot of time and often gives unexpected results.
 

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12 hours ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

If DE were to bend to your will and buff everything that's not melee to do similar damage as melee weapons what would be the point of using melee weapons to get close to these elusive level 200 mobs that 99.9% of the people that play this game will never meet? 

Lets take for instance the Kuva Orgis, it has 7 meters explosion radius. Mines with 56% toxin damage, Nightwatch Napalm, and a bad riven can deal 32000 Corrosive damage alone. Now if DE were to buff it to deal equal damage of your scaling melee weapons my Orgis would be able to deal 200k damage or more in one shot in a 7 meter radius! Why on Earth would I want to use a silly melee weapon ever again if I could just blow away anything not named level 150 Heavy Gunner or Bombard in one hit from half a map away?

I never said anything about buffing primaries to the monstrous dps that melees can dish out. 

Im just stating fact that melee >>>>>>> primaries/secondaries in this game when we talking about ability to scale to enemy level (without any outside buffs etc)

Its been like this for past 6 years, thats why they added Hunters munitions, so primaries (not all of them ofc, only the crit viable) has atleast SOMETIHING to scale better into high lvl enemies. And im perfectly fine with it, up to sortie lvl i just grab some pimped/rivened primary or secondary and wreck stuff with it. If i go tryhard 2h+ MOT i grab melee and just melt stuff with stealth frame and use primary/secondary for armor strip or for CO stacking). I never said i have any issue with it, im just stating facts that ability to scale on melees is 10000000x better than any primary/secondary (except snipers cause they have combo counter just like melee).

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51 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Yeah that's just what I'm saying (reading myself it wasn't clear), I can totally reliably kill max lvl boarders with my guns (also rivened amprex ^^). Thank god, lich hunting with melee is horrible for obvious reasons.

I don't have exact results, only pure feeling and memory, but afair taking about thrice the time to kill with guns than it takes with melee, not even counting when combo is built, is a bit overkill in terms of power disparity imho.

I also think melee should be stronger than guns, to justify the "shoving your face into a deathball of guns", but as you say, guns coming " not even close" to the best melee builds, is just too much. If guns don't even come close to melee, how do you justify using them ever ? All I can think of is status applicator, but since new CO, there's no real point in stacking 6 status on a target, and most of the time, you'd probably take less time just meleing the thing from the start.

I think I had similair kill times between HM Amprex and Heavy Build Pennant (both without a riven) while farming Gian Point when fending off boarders. Sure single target kill times for melee were better but due to how Amprex chains clearing the groups took relativeley the same time.

Melee has always been much stronger than ranged. If we have to be precise it was MUCH stronger than it is now. Sure, now all melees are strong but Maiming Strike Cyath and 100% status Redeemer were probably at least 10x more powerful than the top melees right now. I remember slicing level 1500 enemies with my 500k slash slide crits and nothing can come even close now. It's just that melee feels better to use now even though it actually has higher floor and lower ceiling in terms of damage.

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