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The occasional bullet sponge is okay


Flying_Scorpion
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A super heavy unit that's a real bullet sponge is okay. If they have really cool attacks and abilities, even better. Having the occasional big unit that can take a beating and can apply pressure is great; not so much because individually they are hard to kill, but because they create openings for the lesser units. It gives the trash mobs a chance. So if you're focused on taking down the bullet sponge, now that butcher behind you isn't such a chump anymore, now he's an actual threat.

Check out this video below. My favorite part is that the developer says "We tuned that thing to be crazy. We really want to pressure the player with this attack, and we want you to hate that thing. We're cool with frustrating you, so long as we have something to teach you." 

 

 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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Occasional? Yes. It's pretty much the idea around Halo Elites which, with the right weapons, are total chumps alone but become total nightmares when in command of a unit or accompanied by other equally-lethal Elites.

But a lot of Warframe's late-game enemies become spongy, especially. It's the default, not an exception. Plus, you'll find a lot of these other games employ projectile weapons, not hitscan, because Projectiles are potentially dodgable, or at least give some immediate feedback about where the attack is coming from. But unfortunately, Grineer also have hitscan weapons...

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2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Occasional? Yes. It's pretty much the idea around Halo Elites which, with the right weapons, are total chumps alone but become total nightmares when in command of a unit or accompanied by other equally-lethal Elites.

But a lot of Warframe's late-game enemies become spongy, especially. It's the default, not an exception. Plus, you'll find a lot of these other games employ projectile weapons, not hitscan, because Projectiles are potentially dodgable, or at least give some immediate feedback about where the attack is coming from. But unfortunately, Grineer also have hitscan weapons...

Yeah you make a good point about the hitscan weapons; however, in warframe there is an acrobatic accuracy penalty built into the enemy accuracy algorithm. DE has not released much information regarding this, and I believe that's overall a loss of the potential benefits that could be gained by sharing that information with players. I made a video about that here:

 

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Just now, Flying_Scorpion said:

Yeah you make a good point about the hitscan weapons; however, in warframe there is an acrobatic accuracy penalty built into the enemy accuracy algorithm. DE has not released much information regarding this, and I believe that's overall a loss of the potential benefits that could be gained by sharing that information with players. I made a video about that here:

 

The accuracy algorithm does nothing to solve the latter problem - hitscan bullets are invisible, and thus the player does not intuitively know which direction a threat is coming from. It's not impossible to deal with this, but Warframe doesn't do that either. And honestly, the accuracy algorithm isn't really dodging in any way that matters, it's RNG for whether you get hit or not. You're just increasing your odds when you roll the dice.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

The accuracy algorithm does nothing to solve the latter problem - hitscan bullets are invisible, and thus the player does not intuitively know which direction a threat is coming from. It's not impossible to deal with this, but Warframe doesn't do that either. And honestly, the accuracy algorithm isn't really dodging in any way that matters, it's RNG for whether you get hit or not. You're just increasing your odds when you roll the dice.

There is a directional indicator when you take damage to show you what direction it came from. Yes, you're right that this is not the same as having a projectile fly past you but I'm letting you know there are systems in place to simulate a similar experience.

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1 hour ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

There is a directional indicator when you take damage to show you what direction it came from. Yes, you're right that this is not the same as having a projectile fly past you but I'm letting you know there are systems in place to simulate a similar experience.

It's still far from an ideal system. Hit indicators are imprecise (since it's a 2D image in a 3D space) and not as intuitive as tracking the projectile. One's a learned, cognitive skill, the other's something the human mind does naturally.

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37 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

Wolf of Saturn Six at the end of that nightwave. Bullet sponge plus invulnerable minions added to the fact there's also other enemies in the mission.

Yep. I liked that fight. It felt epic. However, after acquiring the wolf hammer, I felt little desire to kill him if he spawned at a high enough level where it would take more than 5 minutes to kill him. Also I think his little helpers should have been killable. Yeah it added difficulty to the fight, but it's inconsistent with the rules of the game. It felt like they should have been killable. 

If you watch the video in the op, Hugo Martin talks about the marauder, a boss type enemy that's supposed to be on the same power level as the player. He specifically says that when you encounter the marauder, you should kill off all the other enemies to clear the room and then focus directly on the marauder. That's how the wolf fight should have been, allowing you to kill his helpers and then focus on him. 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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Just so we are on the same page, enemies like you can find in doom are awesome, but there is nothing like this in warframe.

Some of that is down to what warframe is and what it is supposed to be.
I've heard countless times, that you are supposed to be powerful and murder hordes of enemies. I don't think that's an excuse to not implement some of the design principles from games like dark souls or doom.
You also have elements from MMOs. Warframe generally represent some class, that you could find in a lot of MMOs. Warframe just throws all of that out of the windows and lets you solo everything. That's because a lot of warframe abilities are actually OP. Part of what makes those games fun is, that you have limited resources in the form of hp and something like mana or in warframe energy. Ammunition can of course also be a factor. Because of the warframe abilities being so game breaking, the next step is to make enemies, that can compete with that. That's how you get nullifiers and enemies, that can one-shot some frames while they are barely touching others.
You also have a progression, like in other RPGs. This progression is largely based on getting better mods. Unfortunately a lot of cool weapons are just too weak to be used or at least not comparable to the meta weapons.

In warframe, the more powerful enemies just make me engage less with the gameplay, instead of more. That's because there isn't any telegraphing in the enemy attacks. Just look at the rockets Kela de Thaym fires from her shoulders (not the orbital strikes, those are pretty good). Instead of making you react to them, you either just take a frame, that can ignore them or you hop around like mad. The reaction time is way too short and they are homing way too much (a problem with all rockets in warframe).
There is also a real problem with actually making bosses tanky. I don't think making bosses status immune like the wolf is a good solution. There are enough weapons and warframes, that just work around this. I think it's fine to make them immune or resistant to certain abilities, but it should be obvious which work and which don't.

A good start would be to change heavy gunners. Give them a proper minigun with spool up time. They would go into position, stand still and start firing. While getting up to speed, the end of the barrel would start glowing. So when you see a heavy gunner doing this or hear the gun spooling up, you have time to react. Also limit the speed, that they can turn with, while shooting.

It would be awesome, if every wave of a defense felt a bit like an arena room in doom.
What's said in the video about enemies with more hp is very true. The stupid imps were super annoying until the end, just because you couldn't focus on them as much.

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I think what the gane needs is more reason to move while shooting, we should be bulletproof jumping, aim gliding, wall latching. Without mods then these are useless, abd why would we weaken our warframe/weapon when that mod could be replaced with Power Strength.


 Something like 50% bullet miss chance when bullet jumping, aim gliding, or wall latching, maybe even a small boost in damage. 
Same for zip lines.

Similar to rolling but more intuitive 

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8 hours ago, gluih said:

A good start would be to change heavy gunners. Give them a proper minigun with spool up time. They would go into position, stand still and start firing. While getting up to speed, the end of the barrel would start glowing. So when you see a heavy gunner doing this or hear the gun spooling up, you have time to react. Also limit the speed, that they can turn with, while shooting.

They use the gorgon which pretty much does this

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1 hour ago, (XB1)DA ZACHYZACHY said:

I think what the gane needs is more reason to move while shooting, we should be bulletproof jumping, aim gliding, wall latching. Without mods then these are useless, abd why would we weaken our warframe/weapon when that mod could be replaced with Power Strength.


 Something like 50% bullet miss chance when bullet jumping, aim gliding, or wall latching, maybe even a small boost in damage. 
Same for zip lines.

Similar to rolling but more intuitive 

Why should there be any additional protection from movement beyond actually dodging attacks?

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)DA ZACHYZACHY said:

They use the gorgon which pretty much does this

It barely does. That's the problem. And that's the problem with pretty much every single mechanic like this, that is in the game.

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