why was imperator vandal made projectile?

[SaidTheRogue]

title.

[DocLouis]

All of the archguns were converted from hitscan to projectile (in space) when Empyrean dropped. They remain unchanged on the ground.

As for why, because the devs didn't want people to roll the content with archguns instead of the railjack.

Edited March 26, 2020 by DocLouis

[Jiminez_Burial]

Because weren't all the Archguns changed?  And before you ask "Why were they all changed then", the answer is RJ.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

DE thinks that balance = making all the guns feel terrible.

[Chicken-Biryani]

Because someone wants this game to not be fun anymore. So, slowly, one step at time, one update at a time, things are going to the kubrows! 

(Don't h8 me for this! I'm jus saying BS!) 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Realistically a projectile having travel time in space makes sense as it is very large, but it should not have any sort of falloff damage since there is nothing to slow the projectile. In atmosphere the opposite would be true (shorter distances, more drag).  Let's be honest, they probably didn't think it through very well.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

 

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Realistically a projectile having travel time in space makes sense as it is very large, but it should not have any sort of falloff damage since there is nothing to slow the projectile. In atmosphere the opposite would be true (shorter distances, more drag).  Let's be honest, they probably didn't think it through very well.

The falloff and the speed of the projectiles is what bothers me. 

Every gun needs in Railjack needs to have its projectile speed doubled if not more. The fall off makes no sense, and the velocitus needs a sniper so people can have a gun for longer ranges. 

The current archwing weapons are what people are forced to rely on early in railjack. Their damage doesn't compare to the railjack weapons, so why do they have to be neutered when most of the time I just want to fly into an enemy base to do the thing... 

Having both be good hardly seems problematic....

My bullets fly slightly faster then enemy ships..... 

Edited January 27, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[IamLoco]

I recommend reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

From a gameplay point of view, I understand why all hitscan weapons were changed to having a bullet velocity and travel time. Although I would assume that in a distant future, such guns designed for space combat would have a significantly higher muzzle velocity than the guns we have right now in archwing mode.

I could also understand that there is SOME falloff damage, as the projectile would cool down in space very quickly - but it would of course still keep its kinetic energy as long as it is not influenced by gravitational pull from nearby masses.

Overall, the speed of the archgun projectils as well as the falloff range could be increased by a significant amount before becoming "unrealistic", even from a scientific point of view. It feels like DE exaggerated it a little but I can understand why they changed the functionality in the first place. 

Let´s be honest - if archguns had no travel time based projectiles, everyone and their grandma would snipe down enemy fighters from 5-10 km instead of getting into close combat.

Edited January 27, 2020 by IamLoco

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 minutes ago, IamLoco said:

Let´s be honest - if archguns had no travel time based projectiles, everyone and their grandma would snipe down enemy fighters from 5-10 km instead of getting into close combat.

Except that the enemies would aggro and fly to you. even if the game let you shoot from that long range, it would really depend if you could make shots from that distance. If they were hitscan? It would be, and it would be glorious. But most arch guns don't have the firepower to kill anything efficiently. I have literally a fully forma-ed and riven imperator vandal. 

It takes some 150+ bullets to kill some things in the veil.

I have also used the only arch melee that locks onto targets. (Which they also need to fix, arch melee is *UNUSABLE* without that lunge.) and I have just stayed locked on to a single fighter melee-ing it. By the time I killed it, I was only 20 minutes away from where we started. 

The healing zones just make it worse. 

[HugintheCrow]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Realistically

1 hour ago, IamLoco said:

I recommend reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

 

Realistically, you shouldn't use the word "realistically" or compare to real-life as a serious reasoning for game mechanics. Every single mechanic in the game should be created with maximum fun and engagement factor in mind, if reality disagrees, too bad for reality (disclaimer: If the game's whole point is "realistic simulation", then previous is void, naturally. However, I will object to Warframe being called a "realistic simulation" of any sort).

RJ weapons being projectile is ok, since you have the gunnery to help you with aiming.

If DE wanted vet players to have equal footing with newbies going into this new modes then perhaps they should rethink the format of the game entirely. The whole point of "looter shooter" genre is you grind for things to get more powerful, ergo, vets SHOULD be more powerful than newbies, that's literally why people play the game. If you don't allow the player to get more powerful (and retain that power across updates), you might as well not make looter shooter, but a single player, campaign-driven traditional fps/tps.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Let's be honest, they probably didn't think it through very well.

Pretty much the statement to be made, 

DE is pretty bad at planning and setting balance. 

[Fallen77]

Il y a 1 heure, (XB1)Erudite Prime a dit :

DE thinks that balance = making all the guns feel terrible.

No, DE tries to give RJ guns a purpose.

What if you could just step out of the ship and hitscan the entire map down with more damage than your BATTLESHIP ?

RJ would be just a new set of AW missions, where you'd just have to park your van at the start of mission. (I haven't looked into if that's still possible or not, I almost always pilot my ship, but I'm yet to see an AW outgun me).

So yeah, making it so that the little gun made to blow up mines, crates, radiators and repel fighters is not stronger than the heavy duty ship guns the new game mode is based around... It's good balance.

I'm not saying it was executed perfectly, but it's definitly the way to go.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

6 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

No, DE tries to give RJ guns a purpose.

What if you could just step out of the ship and hitscan the entire map down with more damage than your BATTLESHIP ?

RJ would be just a new set of AW missions, where you'd just have to park your van at the start of mission. (I haven't looked into if that's still possible or not, I almost always pilot my ship, but I'm yet to see an AW outgun me).

So yeah, making it so that the little gun made to blow up mines, crates, radiators and repel fighters is not stronger than the heavy duty ship guns the new game mode is based around... It's good balance.

I'm not saying it was executed perfectly, but it's definitly the way to go.

The railjack weapons were already much stronger. They didn't need to nerf the archwing weapons when some of the tier 3 RJ could one shot fighters. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Because they wanted Railjack to be skill based. But it doesn’t matter how skilled you are when you can’t hit the ****ing target.

[(NSW)Belaptir]

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The fall off makes no sense, and the velocitus needs a sniper so people can have a gun for longer ranges. 

This gets me. I can't understand why a damn railgun like the velocitus has less range than a cyngas. I mean, it's a charge weapon, it's a railgun. It should be a damn lanka in space with enough punch through to kill the crew of any medium ship by shooting it from the outside.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

Wasn't it already one? They just decreased the travel time 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

as others have said, the idea is that players use the Railjack more in Railjack missions - pretty self explanatory. and Projectiles don't matter quite as much when you have such a blisteringly high rate of fire as the Imperator Vandal does: you don't always need to be a better shot, you just need to shoot more bullets to have a better chance of hitting your target: that's why Anti-Aircraft machine guns IRL fire insanely quickly.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

This gets me. I can't understand why a damn railgun like the velocitus has less range than a cyngas. I mean, it's a charge weapon, it's a railgun. It should be a damn lanka in space with enough punch through to kill the crew of any medium ship by shooting it from the outside.

now I love my Railguns, but what you're asking for is essentially a portable version of the Railjack's Forward artillery. that's never gonna happen, because outright decimating crewships in Archwing renders the railjack kind of pointless (it certainly renders the Forward Artillery useless).

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because they wanted Railjack to be skill based. But it doesn’t matter how skilled you are when you can’t hit the ****ing target.

leading the target helps, but for the fastest enemies like cutters, it's a lot easier to just use Cryo status and try and freeze them, or use other CC methods like Void Hole, which I see an awful lot nowadays. that's another reason Cryophons were so good before the nerf: it either killed outright, or could bring the enemy to standstill by freezing the engines. if I'm chasing fighters in Archwing I get behind them and use blink and get as close to them as possible, within melee range if possible, and then just open fire.

I agree it can be frustrating sometimes, but there are ways to make killing fighters in Archwing easier.

[DroopingPuppy]

Because they encourages us to put aside all our stuffs and just keep using the crewships.

[(NSW)Belaptir]

Just now, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

now I love my Railguns, but what you're asking for is essentially a portable version of the Railjack's Forward artillery. that's never gonna happen, because outright decimating crewships in Archwing renders the railjack kind of pointless (it certainly renders the Forward Artillery useless).

Not like that, but it could be made so certain weapons have high punch through and can hurt the crew of a ship while not destroying the ship itself. For example, if you use one of said archguns against a crewship, with enough shots, it could make so when entering the ship there are less enemies inside.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 3 heures, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

The railjack weapons were already much stronger. They didn't need to nerf the archwing weapons when some of the tier 3 RJ could one shot fighters. 

People were using archguns instead of RJ cannons around launch... Yes, they needed to do it.

A cryophon being able to one shot a fighter at close range ? That has nothing to do with people leaving RJ to go cyngas the entire map. Here, one gun does its normal job, while the other had no business outshining the former.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

People were using archguns instead of RJ cannons around launch... Yes, they needed to do it.

A cryophon being able to one shot a fighter at close range ? That has nothing to do with people leaving RJ to go cyngas the entire map. Here, one gun does its normal job, while the other had no business outshining the former.

No they did not need to do it. Yes. The t1 rail jack weapons don't keep up with modded weapons. And the nerf that gimped archwing weapons made it absolutely miserable. 

T3 cryphon weapons that one shot ships that are also able to get buffed by certain warframe abilities vastly outperformed archwing abilities and guns combined. 

Nothing kills faster then a void vole + anything else. No archwing weapon can one shot. They don't have the damage before hand, and the nerfs just made using them feel completely awful but there was no other choice. 

either a 27 damage per shot railjack weapon or my fully modded imperator based on crit and status.... Now that i have t3? Voild hole and cryphone kills faster then anything else. 

[Fallen77]

Il y a 1 heure, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

No they did not need to do it. Yes. The t1 rail jack weapons don't keep up with modded weapons. And the nerf that gimped archwing weapons made it absolutely miserable. 

T3 cryphon weapons that one shot ships that are also able to get buffed by certain warframe abilities vastly outperformed archwing abilities and guns combined. 

Nothing kills faster then a void vole + anything else. No archwing weapon can one shot. They don't have the damage before hand, and the nerfs just made using them feel completely awful but there was no other choice. 

either a 27 damage per shot railjack weapon or my fully modded imperator based on crit and status.... Now that i have t3? Voild hole and cryphone kills faster then anything else. 

Never talked about mk1, would be dumb to base any argument around that.

You can't buff RJ guns with roar and stuff anymore, as it was never intended. Thus it has no place in this conversation.

Are we comparing two guns, or whatever combo of gear and ability that suits you ? I don't care about combos with an ability that may or may not get nerfed, that's not how you compare things. You can't just cherry pick whatever condition that fits your argument. You got to compare in a vaccum (get it ? Cause it's space), two guns, at the same range, against the same ennemy.

So, before nerf, was there some archguns able to outdamage a sigma mk3 before AG nerf ? (Legit asking, was busy playing chill with the new stuff back then, instead of power rushing the mode with archguns) Because if yes, then it was a good thing to nerf archguns. Since otherwise, there would be next to no reason to use the RJ at all !

Again, I agree that the nerf could have been better handled from what I've seen. Granted, I never tried to build my archgun for railjack specifically, and I'm still seeing people damage fighters pretty hard compared to what my lazy builds can do. So I'm not talking about the exact execution of the nerf, more that prioritizing RJ guns is a good thing to aim for.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Railjack is flawed by its nature because fighters are not large ships; crew ships are not large ships. Everything we currently have as enemies in Railjack should be destroyed easily by arch guns. I mean arch guns are effective against Orbs in Vallis. Profit-Taker has nothing on arch guns, so you expect a small Grineer fighter or crew ship to be a problem?

We don't have galleons or cruiser class ships in Railjack (yet?). Those would be problematic to arch guns and we would need Railjck weapons to be effective against ships of that class. But DE didn't give us those to fight, they gave us small craft that are weaker than enemies we have already defeated with arch guns.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

10 hours ago, IamLoco said:

I recommend reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

From a gameplay point of view, I understand why all hitscan weapons were changed to having a bullet velocity and travel time. Although I would assume that in a distant future, such guns designed for space combat would have a significantly higher muzzle velocity than the guns we have right now in archwing mode.

I could also understand that there is SOME falloff damage, as the projectile would cool down in space very quickly - but it would of course still keep its kinetic energy as long as it is not influenced by gravitational pull from nearby masses.

Overall, the speed of the archgun projectils as well as the falloff range could be increased by a significant amount before becoming "unrealistic", even from a scientific point of view. It feels like DE exaggerated it a little but I can understand why they changed the functionality in the first place. 

Let´s be honest - if archguns had no travel time based projectiles, everyone and their grandma would snipe down enemy fighters from 5-10 km instead of getting into close combat.

You are assuming weapons that can be fired in space would use heat and not magnets or some form of non-thermal energy to be fired. So really only gravity would affect projectiles and since we are in orbit of planets it works both ways so projectiles would be slowed very, very slightly when fired against a gravity field and accelerated up very, very slightly when fired towards a gravity field.

[George_PPS]

Because the developer wants to “balance” it. Cold numbers and statistics are used to nerf whatever they want. What players like or love to use doesn’t matter at all. These changes make archguns jokes.