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why was imperator vandal made projectile?


SaidTheRogue
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On 2020-01-27 at 3:37 AM, HugintheCrow said:

 

Realistically, you shouldn't use the word "realistically" or compare to real-life as a serious reasoning for game mechanics. Every single mechanic in the game should be created with maximum fun and engagement factor in mind, if reality disagrees, too bad for reality (disclaimer: If the game's whole point is "realistic simulation", then previous is void, naturally. However, I will object to Warframe being called a "realistic simulation" of any sort).

RJ weapons being projectile is ok, since you have the gunnery to help you with aiming.

If DE wanted vet players to have equal footing with newbies going into this new modes then perhaps they should rethink the format of the game entirely. The whole point of "looter shooter" genre is you grind for things to get more powerful, ergo, vets SHOULD be more powerful than newbies, that's literally why people play the game. If you don't allow the player to get more powerful (and retain that power across updates), you might as well not make looter shooter, but a single player, campaign-driven traditional fps/tps.

I never once stated that projectiles are bad in Railjack. Also, let's not pretend that the Gunnery 10 auto-lead is beneficial in all cases, nor does it apply to Archwing. The same applies to the lead indicator.

Warframe is based on humanoid characters that have many, many, many similarities to the real world to make it more familiar and believable. Realism is what makes most of the game and its lore work. Without realism the game would be much worse for it.

Also, physics are universal and while you can argue different mechanics are in play, there is zero reason why falloff should exist in space. Or is Warframe suddenly a space magic game with spells shot out of gun-like vessels that lose power the further they travel from their source? If so, that doesn't fit the lore of any known faction in-game.

Edited by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph
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I honestly wouldn't have a problem with the hitscan-to-projectile nerf if they made the projectiles as fast as the Apoc. As it stands, many RJ enemies can just outrun your archguns bullets if you're involved in a Chase, which just makes combat annoying instead of deeper

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I never once stated that projectiles are bad in Railjack. Also, let's not pretend that the Gunnery 10 auto-lead is beneficial in all cases, nor does it apply to Archwing. The same applies to the lead indicator.

Warframe is based on humanoid characters that have many, many, many similarities to the real world to make it more familiar and believable. Realism is what makes most of the game and its lore work. Without realism the game would be much worse for it.

Also, physics are universal and while you can argue different mechanics are in play, there is zero reason why falloff should exist in space. Or is Warframe suddenly a space magic game with spells shot out of gun-like vessels that lose power the further they travel from their source? If so, that doesn't fit the lore of any known faction in-game.

Similar to real things=/=trying to be realistic. Game mechanics/balance always beats realism outside of pure simulation games, as even realistic shooters sacrifice realism for mechanics/balance. If you want to make an argument over damage falloff, it would have to be based around gameplay enjoyment or balance, as DE clearly isn't concerned with designing anything realistic, not even within the context of Warframe's universe(s).

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22 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Are we playing the same game? Nothing in Warframe is grounded in reality as far as I'm aware. 

It's why operators look human, why Warframes have bodies that have 2 legs, 2 arms, and a head, why weapons follow the same rules as our firearms, etc. You are thinking about the specific details, not about the general themes which are all based on our own perception of reality. I mean the universe has the same planets as our own system, so it follows that it takes place either very far in the past or very far in the future.

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2 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Similar to real things=/=trying to be realistic. Game mechanics/balance always beats realism outside of pure simulation games, as even realistic shooters sacrifice realism for mechanics/balance. If you want to make an argument over damage falloff, it would have to be based around gameplay enjoyment or balance, as DE clearly isn't concerned with designing anything realistic, not even within the context of Warframe's universe(s).

So having weapons deal less damage the farther the projectile travels is fun? Having a rail gun that requires being charged have both a travel time and falloff makes the game better? Not only is all of this confusing to most players, it doesn't even make sense; not from a gameplay perspective or a realism one.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

A very broad definition of realistic. 

Realiam isn't limited to the modern day. If I asked you to tell me what the world would be like in 20, 50, 100, 500 years, do you know that you would have to base it upon reality as you know it. Sure, you could use the past as a way to predict the future, but for you to actually believe what you are saying it would have to be based on your perception of reality, otherwise it would be unbelievable even to you. That's why Warframe needs to have realism, so we can understand what is happening even if it seems unbelievable.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

snip

Uhh, I think you misunderstood 99% of my post.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I never once stated that projectiles are bad in Railjack. Also, let's not pretend that the Gunnery 10 auto-lead is beneficial in all cases, nor does it apply to Archwing. The same applies to the lead indicator.

I meant that as in Railjack guns EXCLUSIVELY, not Archwing guns. Railjack guns, like Cryophon or Apoc etc. 

Noone is pretending that gunnery works on archwing weapons, where did you get that from?

2 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Also, physics are universal and while you can argue different mechanics are in play, there is zero reason why falloff should exist in space.

Yup, definitely agreed. Why are you writing this as if I was of a differing opinion? lmao

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but I wholeheartedly consider the archwing-gun nerf as silly. My rework of Railjack (in works, will appear in the nearest month in my fan concept thread) literally reverts it.

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On 2020-01-27 at 9:27 AM, IamLoco said:

I recommend reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

From a gameplay point of view, I understand why all hitscan weapons were changed to having a bullet velocity and travel time. Although I would assume that in a distant future, such guns designed for space combat would have a significantly higher muzzle velocity than the guns we have right now in archwing mode.

I could also understand that there is SOME falloff damage, as the projectile would cool down in space very quickly - but it would of course still keep its kinetic energy as long as it is not influenced by gravitational pull from nearby masses.

Overall, the speed of the archgun projectils as well as the falloff range could be increased by a significant amount before becoming "unrealistic", even from a scientific point of view. It feels like DE exaggerated it a little but I can understand why they changed the functionality in the first place. 

Let´s be honest - if archguns had no travel time based projectiles, everyone and their grandma would snipe down enemy fighters from 5-10 km instead of getting into close combat.

Well, I was going to write this, but it was already written.

Weapons in space (such as Railjack space) can either be projectile or beam. Not from some "realistic" angle, but from a gameplaying angle. Hitscan is, after all, only a game concept, used because it eases the load on the computer (and the gaming system).

The problem with the current Railjack projectile model is the fall-off and the short range. While understandable from a game perspective that "something had to be done", everything else about it is completely un-understandable. Starting from having such weapons on a fighting spaceship that can't "reach" enemies you can actually see, or from that even simplified physics tells us that such projectiles are BS. Reducing the fall-off reduction and increasing the range considerably would be the way to go, both for the enemies and the Railjack. But with that amount of spacecraft (or archguns) spewing out that number of projectiles, all with their own speed and momentum, only heavy duty gaming machines would be able to keep up. If that. So improved physics would mean reducing the number of projectiles (considerably), which in turn means that a lot of the current archguns wouldn't have to be changed to "slowly firing single shot cannons", from the current bullet hosers many of them are. So it is a tricky situation.

Since beams use the speed of light (approx.) they are "hitscan" by default. On the other hand, such energy weapons also have fall-off, depending on range (especially in space).

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On 2020-01-27 at 9:32 AM, Fallen77 said:

Never talked about mk1, would be dumb to base any argument around that.

You can't buff RJ guns with roar and stuff anymore, as it was never intended. Thus it has no place in this conversation.

Except that other frames can still buff them xD

The archwing weapons take a longer time to kill most enemies then a t3 gun. Some t2 guns even out perform archwing weapons. So the basic guns, and maybe the T1 do less damage then the archwing, so archwing guns were made to feel bad, when both can be good. 

Your argument is like if primary weapons sucked just to make secondary weapons look good. It's an argument that makes no sense, when both being good is completely viable. 

Nothing in railjack kills as fast as void hole, mk 3 cryphon and add one other ability of your choice. Arch guns can't crit for 10k damage like t3 railjack weapons can.

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Because when new content does not fit in well with the rest of the game, they just change the rest of the game to make new content "work", just like when POE landed and archwings got shot out of the sky with a sneeze..

They seem to have the amazing knack of making already hated archwings yet more hated and frustrating.

Edited by Methanoid
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Il y a 7 heures, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

Except that other frames can still buff them xD

The archwing weapons take a longer time to kill most enemies then a t3 gun. Some t2 guns even out perform archwing weapons. So the basic guns, and maybe the T1 do less damage then the archwing, so archwing guns were made to feel bad, when both can be good. 

Your argument is like if primary weapons sucked just to make secondary weapons look good. It's an argument that makes no sense, when both being good is completely viable. 

Nothing in railjack kills as fast as void hole, mk 3 cryphon and add one other ability of your choice. Arch guns can't crit for 10k damage like t3 railjack weapons can.

What do you not understand by "not intended" ? Weither it's fixed or not doesn't change that fact. DE announced that they were gonna revert that, maybe they had more urgent things to take care of, maybe they changes their mind, doesn't matter, as far as we know, it's a bug, not something you can take into consideration when talking about balance. Leave this argument already.

Then one paragraphe to convince me that archgun are weaker than RJ cannons now ? OK ? I never said otherwise...

Now, I could keep writing a novel to explain my point, but I'll just say this : it's necessary that RJ cannons are much stronger than archguns to incentivise players not to be useless flying around, shooting the fighters that the RJ can take care of, instead of boarding stations and CS that RJ can't take care of. If you can't understand that, I don't have the patience to explain more.

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8 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

What do you not understand by "not intended" ? Weither it's fixed or not doesn't change that fact. DE announced that they were gonna revert that, maybe they had more urgent things to take care of, maybe they changes their mind, doesn't matter, as far as we know, it's a bug, not something you can take into consideration when talking about balance. Leave this argument already.

Then one paragraphe to convince me that archgun are weaker than RJ cannons now ? OK ? I never said otherwise...

Now, I could keep writing a novel to explain my point, but I'll just say this : it's necessary that RJ cannons are much stronger than archguns to incentivise players not to be useless flying around, shooting the fighters that the RJ can take care of, instead of boarding stations and CS that RJ can't take care of. If you can't understand that, I don't have the patience to explain more.

what do you no understand that rail jack weapons vastly outperform archwing weapons intended or not, even before the nerf? you don't even have to buff RJ, BUT YOU CAN with warframes.. The arch melee was made completely useless and obsolete unless you use the prisma that can still lock on and lunge at enemies. 

The weapons were made projectile and do very little damage in comparison, while barely being faster then enemy ships. You don't have a point, you've never had a point. You lost this argument before I even posted bro. 

Archwing weapons that require mods, time to level up and other effort are allowed to be good in raialjack. They still cannot keep up. Buffing them would have no real effect except making lower tier railjack missions slightly more tolerable.

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On 2020-01-27 at 3:29 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because they wanted Railjack to be skill based. But it doesn’t matter how skilled you are when you can’t hit the ****ing target.

at least with the imparator we need tracers (accurate ones) it is possible to hit targets with the gratler but it has no range and no mag (it does to good damage but only has 1 km of range and no proximity/contact fuse (it will still shoot through ships) (the gun has the same range as blink) in a map that is easily 10km square as for projectile speed that can be adjusted if skilled although gunnery lead markers would be nice.  the imarator is less a skill and more there are missing parts issue but the entirety of RJ AW needs and supposedly is getting an overhaul.  

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On 2020-01-27 at 3:29 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because they wanted Railjack to be skill based. But it doesn’t matter how skilled you are when you can’t hit the ****ing target.

Its literally the furthest thing from skill based, when they have stuff like void hole that pulls every enemy together, giant fields that just do constant damage or smart missiles that home. 

If they wanted to make railjack skill based it would be PvP

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The whole entire point of the profit taker bounties is getting the gravimag so you can use archguns that were designed to take down armored ships against the orbs.

DE just decided to retconn the whole thing by making them useless though.  Which makes ZERO sense to anyone who actually stops to think about it.  With a full crew in the Veil you are outnumbered over 25 to 1.  The enemy fighters can take down our fighter equivalent in 2 seconds unless it's the Amesha spamming invincibility skills.  Everything out there can.  Unless you've farmed up all the super RNG rare mods and have a hefty reactor that can hold them all they can shred your RJ too.  The enemy is allowed to kill us in 2 seconds but it's apparently not okay for us to do the same to the enemy despite the players being the ones who are outnumbered.  A lot of the enemy's attacks are also tracking.  It doesn't matter how much you dodge or blink or how fast you are.  If you stop, that homing swarm of instant death will catch up to you and you will die.  Ours don't track, pretty sure the AOE on them doesn't work in RJ, and they all have super slow projectiles now, including the literal railgun.  Of course the answer to imbalance was to nerf Archguns repeatedly, make them all projectile weapons while not let the gunnery targeting lead assist intrinsic help them out (because that would actually make sense.) and make sure that the ridiculously slow projectiles, in space where there is no air resistance or gravity, have fall off on their damage and limited range.

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