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still no additional nightwave ranks after the 2nd time 30?


fr4gb4ll
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not that i really need anything out of the cred offering pool, but it seems a bit lame that you stop progressing after the 60th rank in the intermissions (like last time too). i'm sure this intermission is nearly over, but i enjoy doing the NW-challenges, even for the measly 15 cred per rank we get after getting to r30... but with no further progressing even this enjoyment feels too hollow.

sure would be nice to at least to five us at least another 30 ranks to go, even if the time won't be enough to ever finish it.

ah, for explanation: this time i did ALL NW-challenges of this intermission, even every daily on, and got to the 60th with todays daily (the scan 25 object one).

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On 2019-10-21 at 11:36 AM, [DE]Helen said:

Intermission Change: Intermission II has 30 Ranks with 30 additional Prestige Ranks similar to Series 1 and 2; the first Intermission had 15 Ranks without - Prestige Ranks; each Prestige Rank grants 15 Creds

Unless you did not see the patch notes, this is no different from Series 1 and 2.

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37 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Unless you did not see the patch notes, this is no different from Series 1 and 2.

 

2 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

(like last time too)

it was more like a rethorical question, you know...

ofc, it's obvious that there was no change to the system - this threat is to remind DE of re-thinking this instead of copy/pasting it again and again. people requested to change this since the first intermission for many reasons - the most used, i guess was  that it would be 'unfair' to new players when compared to how one could get those aura mods (and i guess those cosmetics too in this regard) when they were still alert-rewards...  and no, this is not what i complain about - me, it's just about an insentive to play the game for those NW-challenges (i usually use the creds for catalysts only - the rest of the reward is of even less use for me). but regardless of the complain reason: there is none for DE to NOT change this - on the contary, since they usually want us player to play the game and not preventing it by the lack forsight... therefore this reminder here...

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1 hour ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

first 30 are the normal nightwave ranks
second 30 are the prestige ranks
This is to allow for people to get stuff from the nightwave shop as we dont have the normal alerts anymore.

the nightwave should end pretty soon probbily 2 weeks left maybe 1

yeah, like i said above, a mistake and/or lack of foresight.

i agree that it's likely to end soon - like the last times. still wouldn't have hurt to add just another prestige rank to it - or just keep the first one going after 30...

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3 hours ago, Skaleek said:

This nightwave season was so long though that prestige 30 is actually very achievable without doing any excess grind.

Never the less i still found it tedious yet somehow despite not trying to actively chasing any ranks past 30, i manage to hit the 36ish or so rank. Which pretty much went straight into potatoes since not much else exists to dump it in for me, since i have little care to hoarde kuva to try and roll for better stats on the rivens i own which already have satisfactory stats.

Honestly im not keeping track but i felt the intermission should of been over a few weeks ago, plus it should of been 15 ranks for the `regular amount`, if they were just going to flood a bunch of duplicates of previous night wave rewards to pad out the excuse of 30 normal ranks. Because they could of honestly had 30 prestige ranks and throw in a large amount of tokens for one if they wanted to purchase the nightwave accessories they failed to get on the previous nightwaves, which some were already quite generously done except for people who barely got on and for those who started the nightwaves extremely late.

Course this could be just me getting enough of a burnout treatment that so many systems which led to me not caring about sortie, syndicate medal missions, eidolons and even railjack at the moment where i feel some restructuring is in order on plenty of those systems. Just like how Alerts was a frustrating mess of watching for special goods like potatoes & nitain extract to show up. Nightwave might as well get redesigned into a treasure exchange system, so people have less of an issue on getting specifically what they want and then can decide if they want to continue doing nightwave for any extra goodies such as kuva or potatoes.

Namely so:

  1. People would only earn token currency as they rank up and/or complete tasks.
  2. By only getting this special currency, they can choose WHAT items they want specifically in the shop and especially in what order do they want them first.
  3. Which can easily have purchase limits like being only able to purchase 1 copy of the umbral forma in the shop and similar circumstances for other items, including those slots, forma bundles and so on.
  4. Basically a much easier to manage `nightwave` system where all D.E. has to mostly do is decide what items would be in the shop and what the batches of missions will be for each week of nightwave.
  5. Not to mention its a much more friendly approach by giving people a choice on what they want. Think about those arcade corners where you earned tickets based on how well you did in those games and you could pick anything on the prize corner`s shelves to exchange them for as long as you have enough. That`s basically how a Treasure Exchange system works and i certainly am sure plenty of had the same kind of fun as those times, especially early on in ya`ll lives or if you never had the pleasure to visit such a place, likely would of liked to when you heard about them, such as those family restaurants with a game corner for the kids.

Anyway, its likely never going to happen but its just me chiding another system that would be an effective expansion to what nightwave currently is, Because if D.E. plans to keep padding out things like intermission with duplicates of previous night wave rewards, especially if its seasons that just immediately ended, those items REALLY need to be in the cred exchange shop instead of taking up entire reward slots that could of had other items instead, Because even 500 endo would be nicer to get, then most people who enjoyed the nightwave season to get stuck with a 2nd copy of some accessory they cant even scrap for credits.

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DE really, REALLY want you buying Catalysts and Reactors for real money. That's why they're 75 Credits in the Nightwave Store and 20 Plat in the Cash Shop. They need to let you earn those things SOMEHOW so they don't get accused of P2W (too late), but they also have to severely limit the number you can actually get so whales like myself will keep buying them for real money. That's basically why there's a limit to Prestige Levels. Yes, they could potentially limit it by Season Length, but I've never gotten the impression that DE were able to produce Nightwave seasons fast enough. A hard cap on progression rather than time is more reliable in this case, even if it leaves people with nothing to earn.

 

4 hours ago, Avienas said:

Course this could be just me getting enough of a burnout treatment that so many systems which led to me not caring about sortie, syndicate medal missions, eidolons and even railjack at the moment where i feel some restructuring is in order on plenty of those systems. Just like how Alerts was a frustrating mess of watching for special goods like potatoes & nitain extract to show up. Nightwave might as well get redesigned into a treasure exchange system, so people have less of an issue on getting specifically what they want and then can decide if they want to continue doing nightwave for any extra goodies such as kuva or potatoes.

Well... See, the issue here is that Nightwave is the Warframe Battle Pass. You don't pay money for it, but it has all of the other mechanics. It's based on FOMO and timed-exclusives, it's based on grinding for very valuable rewards late in the season that YOU BETTER HURRY! You could miss those, and they're going away at the end of the Season! The result of that, however, is that Nightwave has ended up displacing a large chunk of the game's pre-existing content. I don't play Warframe as much as I used to. I get maybe a couple of hours per day, playing with a friend of mine. That's just about enough time to clear out a few Nightwave challenges and maybe get some progression on a Lich, despite the S#&$ness of that system. That leaves me with no time for Sorties, no time for Eidolons, no time for Syndicate missions... Oh, and no time to actually have fun, in-between all the "retention" checkboxes.

That's what happens when you populate your game with FOMO systems, each of which demands your full attention. Do Nightwave! No, do the daily Sortie! No, do the daily Syndicate missions! No, get progression on your Lich! No, it's Daytime in Cetus, do Eidolons! No, the Anomaly is active, do that! I've often mused about how we used to play games because we enjoyed playing them. Warframe doesn't seem to have enough confidence in its own merits to let us play because we like playing the sodding game. No, it has to constantly nag us to "Do this, do that, hurry it up!" to the point where we never get to play the content we actually like... To the point where we no longer even CONSIDER what we actually like.

Habit-forming Appointment Mechanics are a double-edged sword, though. They work as long as you're active, but dissuade when you aren't. I stopped playing Destiny 2 for a while because I was ironically busy playing Warframe. Now I'm so far behind on the current Season that I don't feel like playing the game at all until the next one... If at all. Nightwave has the same effect on me. So far I've managed to stay on top of it, but it gets harder the longer it goes on. Games shouldn't feel like needy toddlers.

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

DE really, REALLY want you buying Catalysts and Reactors for real money. That's why they're 75 Credits in the Nightwave Store and 20 Plat in the Cash Shop. They need to let you earn those things SOMEHOW so they don't get accused of P2W (too late), but they also have to severely limit the number you can actually get so whales like myself will keep buying them for real money. That's basically why there's a limit to Prestige Levels. Yes, they could potentially limit it by Season Length, but I've never gotten the impression that DE were able to produce Nightwave seasons fast enough. A hard cap on progression rather than time is more reliable in this case, even if it leaves people with nothing to earn.

And this is why one of my original favorite reasons i was attracted to games like PSO2, Mabinogi(and vindictus to an extent), Wakfu(and dofus to some extent) and Warframe was a simple fact, they used a major different approach in how they handled gameplay compared to other things

  1. Mabinogi used a F to A then 9 to 1 rank up system for skills that gave perma stat boosts and besides worrying about your combat power being too high for training skills, you could build whatever the fk you want on your specs. While the same applied to Vindi in terms of your focus would be farming AP by spamming missions to get perma stat boosts, which early on became tedious due to certain design issues, course i got bored of both of those due to bad design-happening later down the line. Sound familiar with how warframe is going right now eh?
  2. Wakfu (& its earlier incarnation, Dofus) Pretty much had a design style of a FFT like MMO playstyle with a class system that did not follow the generic norm for class names since you had one class all about gambling, another about tanking damage to go DPS nuts, a class literally about chucking enemies(and even allies) around the map and being a drunk and many others, too bad wakfu suffered from the gag of wanting to be a subscription based game till it caved in twice to first limited f2p then mostly f2p yet stuck with a subscription requirement for the `latest content`. Despite it also had a nice style of server-wide management of planting resources, crafting goods & even currency making in-game to create a nice community focus on gameplay, but sadly with usual bad decisions that got ruined and then they just let people easily farm `kamas` from enemy drops, made high level content ridiculously broken and it was easier to just run 2 accounts at the same time, despite its memory leak issues, with each running 2 npc fill units for a full party of 6 then trying to get 5 other people together for stuff like dungeons.
  3. As for PSO2, you can honestly just look up almost any boss fight, music theme(especially boss music), costume showcase, classes and so many other things to pretty much get a good idea on how many elements that made it so good that it was only being burnt out for it being TOO DAMN GOOD, on top of it being stuck as a game for a long time that non-japanese speakers had to rely on translations to effectively play it, before global was a thing. 

Never the less, it would be rather nice if D.E. would start getting back to elements that made it a good game, something that stuck to its own song and dance, where even if it copied from other games, they were usually more unique about it. Now a days it feels like they just straight up 100% or only 30% copy what other games do and not really put an actual twist on it, sometimes it just being a poor man`s copy version of it. Sort of like how i expected Dauntless to be a poor man`s version of Monster Hunter, but at the very least, design wise its not that terrible of a game, especially as a f2p title on ends.

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well... See, the issue here is that Nightwave is the Warframe Battle Pass. You don't pay money for it, but it has all of the other mechanics. It's based on FOMO and timed-exclusives, it's based on grinding for very valuable rewards late in the season that YOU BETTER HURRY! You could miss those, and they're going away at the end of the Season!

A treasure exchange `event` system such as how i keep mentioning Fate Grand order & Dragalia lost`s event exchanges, tend to also work on time limited designed which also can follow the FOMO design, the main difference though is you are grinding to clear the limited pull inventory out. But they also allow the option for you to `skip over particular goods` in favor of the more juicy stuff.

For example, Dragalia lost just recently did a re-run of a previous event called Flames of Reflection, which allowed you to get all sorts of typical goodies (silver/gold toliet paper as some would call the adventurer upgrade mats, crafting materials, upgrade materials for flame/wind facilities, adventurers & such, etc.)

The key part is though if your a player who has been around you could skip ALOT of the crafting goods, especially the weapon crafting plates & crimson cores used for making alot of `normal` high level gear. 

Which is pretty much a nice two way split that the exchange shop can work. It can have more stuff then you can completely clean out from the exchange unless you grind like a absurd as fk mad-man or for those who do need certain items or are a casual, they can focus on the FOMO items like accessories, limited goods which in warframe`s case would be slots, potatoes, forma bundles and so on.

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

 

That's what happens when you populate your game with FOMO systems, each of which demands your full attention. Do Nightwave! No, do the daily Sortie! No, do the daily Syndicate missions! No, get progression on your Lich! No, it's Daytime in Cetus, do Eidolons! No, the Anomaly is active, do that! I've often mused about how we used to play games because we enjoyed playing them. Warframe doesn't seem to have enough confidence in its own merits to let us play because we like playing the sodding game. No, it has to constantly nag us to "Do this, do that, hurry it up!" to the point where we never get to play the content we actually like... To the point where we no longer even CONSIDER what we actually like.

And now you know the same kind of ENERGY i cry out with on why i want so many older systems simplified condensed and merged. Because D.E. never takes the time to simplify things, before releasing out new content. They only have a fk ton of `FOMO` content where most could likely be skipped via things like just using platinum in the market chat on some of those items between 3 to 10 plat easy. Hell, besides relic packs and being able to directly purchase syndicate mods/arch-gun parts/syndicate weapons. There is literally no reason to ever care about grinding syndicates beyond those. Especially when syndicates has that downside with `death squads` and your forced to use up one of your fashion slots for a sigil alot of people will just make invisible then have what might really make thar fashion look ugly.

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Habit-forming Appointment Mechanics are a double-edged sword, though. They work as long as you're active, but dissuade when you aren't. I stopped playing Destiny 2 for a while because I was ironically busy playing Warframe. Now I'm so far behind on the current Season that I don't feel like playing the game at all until the next one... If at all. Nightwave has the same effect on me. So far I've managed to stay on top of it, but it gets harder the longer it goes on. Games shouldn't feel like needy toddlers.

And thats why i was never able to get back into Destiny 2, between all the `dailies` that would require me to do things like visit strikes, visit pvp, visit patrol, visit etc. I felt kind of bleh to even want to go back to the game. Hence why i have more fun with generalized dailies where it could be something as simple as complete 5 `quests` which in Destiny 2`s case could be anything between strikes, pvp matches or just do some patrol missions. Simple to do and would just be done just thru passive gameplay.

ALSO, kind of why i took a distaste to how things like the kill 150 enemies with X elemental, when it should honestly be kill 150 enemies with either X, Y or Z elemental that would stack up. That or just STICK to kill X enemies period, no complicated fan-fare, no complicated mission structure. 

They could honestly just of had all the weekly nightwaves stay to the exact same weekly setup. Here let me list out what the `dailies` for Dragalia lost consist of:

  • Complete 1 round of Avenue of Fortune (Quick mission that gives LOTS of money).
  • Complete 1 round of Avenue of Power (Quick mission that gives LOTS of Exp materials for adventurers).
  • Collect resources 1 time from castle (literally just tap any collection facility in the castle).
  • Complete 1 void battle (Which is where you normally do to burn your co-op stamina anyway since you get LOTS of bonus stat-up items there).
  • Complete 1 co-op battle (which is literally what void battle is and honestly most things can be done co-op)
  • Complete 3 co-op battle (same statement as void battle, easy to do easy reason to burn extra stamina and get stat up goods).
  • Complete 5 quests (literally will get done just by doing the rest of those things).

This aint even counting the free daily chest of goodies for other missions that could honestly be done on Auto battle. But im sure if the nightwave for warframe was more like that, more passive as fk to clear, then many people would not feel as burn out on nightwave. Even Dauntless`s FOMO battle pass was decent since you had a pick of 3 quest cards you could do, have up to 4 of them active at a time and if your stuck on some of them, could always ABANDON them to get another quest card instead.

Anyway this is just me wanting a good title to not sink into the mud we call mediocre games that will likely be forgotten because of bad design around it, especially if more and more `content creators` who act as one of the major ways to promote the game and write up guides for things, decide to go to other games instead, when they are forced to spew out very piss-poor content post ups to chat about it to fill that post quota, despite nothing really new is actually present in warframe for what could be freaking months.

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21 hours ago, -AxHx-Vile said:

No matter where the limit is set (because this is DE, there will be some limit regardless), someone will always reach it and ask for more...smh...

i'm pretty sure that is irrelevant since it will end at some point and if they just see to it that the accumulated amount of standing one could possibly get from it is mirrored in the amount of rank one can gets therefore, it would be enough (and easily done too). the intermissions don't have any kind of 'extra' standing one can get like the episodes had so far - therefore there is a fix number for a maximum -> ergo: "someone will always reach it and ask for more" is bullS#&$ at this point - for episodes, it's a different story though and you are right about this there (as we have seen in the 2 episodes and the complainings to the standing gaining).

16 hours ago, Skaleek said:

This nightwave season was so long though that prestige 30 is actually very achievable without doing any excess grind.

if you meant this intermission one, we only can guess - like i said, i just had reached the end of the line when i wrote this, and i had really got every singe challenge this time for testing... not sure i would call it 'excess grind' even though there are some challenges that aren't that much fun to do.

i think one can get about 5 ranks per week if all challenges (incl. all daily ones) are completed - if this would be the last week (which i doubt), it would be missing 5x15 cred from possible rewards (or, you could say one potato reward ^^) not much, but also nothing to sneer about imo... main point, though, is that it's unnecessary from DE to do so - at the very least it would prevent those posts complaining about it, if they change this ^^)

13 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

"You've had enough fun."

yeah welp. if one see it that way - i do, but only because there isn't much more to do (or farm) in warframe anymore beside those hollow challenges ^^)

many others don't really care about it and i can uderstand them too...

8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

DE really, REALLY want you buying Catalysts and Reactors for real money. That's why they're 75 Credits in the Nightwave Store and 20 Plat in the Cash Shop. They need to let you earn those things SOMEHOW so they don't get accused of P2W (too late)

i think 75 creds is quite ok for it - the 20 plat in the market could be a bit less imo, but since i really only bought a handfull of them (only catalyst though and some exilus adapter and forma way back when they were much harder to get), i don't really bother about it... you should be carefull using the silly P2W argument though since its not only untrue for warframe but also easily disproved by about anyone who played warframe longer than a few months. me, i never had to bought any platinum with real money and only got tons of it by doing a rather lazy amount of trading - so not even any kind of exessive in-game trading is necessary to get all you can get from the game (beside tennogen skins)... the time necessary to do this is also only medicore compared to other games that claim to be f2p - if that weren't the case, i would have stoped playing warframe years ago.

8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well... See, the issue here is that Nightwave is the Warframe Battle Pass. You don't pay money for it, but it has all of the other mechanics. It's based on FOMO and timed-exclusives, it's based on grinding for very valuable rewards late in the season that YOU BETTER HURRY! You could miss those, and they're going away at the end of the Season! The result of that, however, is that Nightwave has ended up displacing a large chunk of the game's pre-existing content. I don't play Warframe as much as I used to. I get maybe a couple of hours per day, playing with a friend of mine. That's just about enough time to clear out a few Nightwave challenges and maybe get some progression on a Lich, despite the S#&$ness of that system. That leaves me with no time for Sorties, no time for Eidolons, no time for Syndicate missions... Oh, and no time to actually have fun, in-between all the "retention" checkboxes.

not really comparable to those 'battle passes', even though the name "season" might suggest it. that you feel driven by the NW is only your own desire to do it (more or less). for what is really needed from the rewards there? even the umbra forma can be aquired elsewhere (ok, not easily, but it can be) - most other things are cosmetical in nature. and since i wrote this thread about us getting too much time for the intermission (goes for the 2 seasons so far too) and still a 'fixed end' where no further standing can be gained, there certainly is no "YOU BETTER HURRY" in there either - and i also only play a few hours nowadays and don't do much of sorties, eidolon or syndicate runs anymore... but not because i feel not having time for them but because i don't really need to do them. by riven contingent is always at the max allowed (which i complain often enough here) and i have about all but a few (for me) unnecessary arcanes as well as about every reward from all syndicates (yes, i even switched side at one point just for the fun of it) - only the relic packs are of some interest there and don't get me started about how many relics catching dust in my inventory...

point is: if you feel like playing the game is more a job than fun, you should reconsider a break from it or stop altogether. true, NW is displacing some chunks of other contend, but that was likely also the intend of it (though i question the effectiveness of that). and lets face it: most of it's challenges can be done by just your usually gaming behaviour and/or are done fast on the side of it. the longest ones might 'only' take up as much time as 30 minutes (like the currently 30 min kuva-survival) and even there you can also do other things you would have done at one point or the other - like getting kuva, re-level some stuff and so on... at least, that is how i take the NW challenges on, by thinking how to best handle them with what i otherwise feel about playing (e.g. assassinations are often part of sorties, so i just do them together - or the 'do 3 xxx mission' are usually doable by just running a few fissures which i would have done so anyway).

surely there are better ways DE could handle nightwave, but i won't delve into this here and also aren't that much bothered by it in any case.

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10 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i think 75 creds is quite ok for it - the 20 plat in the market could be a bit less imo, but since i really only bought a handfull of them (only catalyst though and some exilus adapter and forma way back when they were much harder to get), i don't really bother about it... you should be carefull using the silly P2W argument though since its not only untrue for warframe but also easily disproved by about anyone who played warframe longer than a few months. me, i never had to bought any platinum with real money and only got tons of it by doing a rather lazy amount of trading - so not even any kind of exessive in-game trading is necessary to get all you can get from the game (beside tennogen skins)... the time necessary to do this is also only medicore compared to other games that claim to be f2p - if that weren't the case, i would have stoped playing warframe years ago.

Whether YOU feel compelled to pay money for Warframe has no bearing on whether the game is P2W. It still sells power and it still uses progression systems designed to make the "free" way of earning said power deliberately unpleasant. I've played Warframe for more than a few months, and it's precisely that experience on which I base my P2W assessment. Offering a token "free" path that you have available but are clearly not intended to take is not a shield against criticism. At best it's plausible deniability, at worst wilful duplicity and in all cases represents a constant psychological pressure masquerading as the illusion of choice. You don't feel that pressure, great. I'm happy for you. However, YOU not feeling the pressure doesn't mean it's not there.

 

14 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

not really comparable to those 'battle passes', even though the name "season" might suggest it. that you feel driven by the NW is only your own desire to do it (more or less). for what is really needed from the rewards there? even the umbra forma can be aquired elsewhere (ok, not easily, but it can be) - most other things are cosmetical in nature. and since i wrote this thread about us getting too much time for the intermission (goes for the 2 seasons so far too) and still a 'fixed end' where no further standing can be gained, there certainly is no "YOU BETTER HURRY" in there either - and i also only play a few hours nowadays and don't do much of sorties, eidolon or syndicate runs anymore... but not because i feel not having time for them but because i don't really need to do them. by riven contingent is always at the max allowed (which i complain often enough here) and i have about all but a few (for me) unnecessary arcanes as well as about every reward from all syndicates (yes, i even switched side at one point just for the fun of it) - only the relic packs are of some interest there and don't get me started about how many relics catching dust in my inventory...

The same applies here - YOU not feeling the compulsion doesn't mean it's not there. Nightwave's design is entirely analogous to the Battle Pass. It doesn't ask for money, but it still uses all of the other subtle psychological cues. I'm happy that they're not effective on YOU, but they're there regardless. Game design communicates intent, and that's not on accident. I'm well aware that Nightwave has a lot of leeway, with both significant margin for inactivity and the ability to catch up. None of this changes the fact that it still operates on a FEELING of FOMO. It's not based on a real rush any more, but the illusion of loss is still there because it's core to the system's design. Arguing from personal anecdote can be useful for illustrative purposes, but it holds little argumentative weight. If YOU are not being affected by the psychological conditioning, it's likely because you aren't the target audience.

Nightwave's core design is very heavily rooted in offering players exclusive rewards which would otherwise cost money, but doing so on a limited nature to create the sense of artificial scarcity and time pressure. It's why Catalysts and Reactors cost 20 Plat but 75 Credits while craftable helmets cost 75 Plat but 30 Nightwave credits. This applies to the rest of the game, as well. This is the reason why Forma is so easy to earn but so slow to build. It's why Lenses are both consumable and available for Plat on the Market. It's why most build timers are 12-24 hours long despite having no reason to be. And yes, I'm discussing more than just Nightwave, but Nightwave is just the latest in a long line of psychologically manipulative monetisation. I'm glad that you're having fun playing the game for free, but that's only because other people are buying Plat and other tchotchke enough to foot the bill for you.

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On 2020-01-28 at 10:41 PM, Steel_Rook said:

Whether YOU feel compelled to pay money for Warframe has no bearing on whether the game is P2W. It still sells power and it still uses progression systems designed to make the "free" way of earning said power deliberately unpleasant. I've played Warframe for more than a few months, and it's precisely that experience on which I base my P2W assessment

then i would say that our view on what P2W means differs very much form one another. i see no 'selling of power' in warframe - the boosters are not and neither are the slots. you 'could' play the entire game, mastering everything released so far and never bought any booster or slots altogether. sure, you would still get some more slots and the occasional booster from login, rare caches and sorties, but that's just a reward for playing. the only thing you 'pay' is your time - and paying with this when you get entertainment out of it is also no P2W. if one has not much time to spend on playing the game, it's of no consequence to this system - those people should waste any time at all on a computer game then... they certainly shouldn't complain about not being treated fair... which is something many of those seems not to understand - 'time' is a very valuable commodity since it's limited for every person. spending it on luxury like entertainment is a personal choice and no obligation.

in any case, you should look at the system from DEs perspective: they need the game to be played by as many people as possible and as often as possible without annoying those players (which would likely lead to those abandoning the game). they do earn money form people who spend money on platinum, 'prime access' (which i personally find a very lame way to get new stuff... to boring for me) and some of the cosmetics, but they also do so by merchandising and maybe by advertisment too, though lucky for us we are not pestered by those in warframe (i saw other games where this is not the case). and again, to keep warframe an interesting object of those mentioned source of income, it has to provide a base of players as big as possible... f2p is the best way to ensure this - compare it to those many failed games that only offered access when you pay a monthly (or any other interval) fee to it: they mostly failed because the player-base decreased to a point where no one wanted to pay for it anymore. the reasons why this happened are manifold ofc, but in the end, it was the death of the game since it became unprofitable - and a capitalististic world, unprofitable is a death sentence. that DE had managed to keep warframe not only going but also developing over so many years is quite the accomplishment, one that not many other developers have done so in last 30 years. idk about how profitable warframe is for DE (or not, maybe they do a mixed calculation with other projects they have but keeping it alive for its publicity ^^) but they use a system of f2p that i can accept - and belive me, i'm very critical of such (or rather i became this way over many years and many bad examples of f2p games).

On 2020-01-28 at 10:41 PM, Steel_Rook said:

The same applies here - YOU not feeling the compulsion doesn't mean it's not there.

indeed the same goes for that: you only contemplating your own point of view in that - ok, i might be too, though i tried to state it this way (successfully or not, that i leave for the readers to decide). to make it clear: any effect of compulsion is for each person to succumb or not - even breathing is a compulsion for everyone... yes, i know but example, but true nonetheless even if this is matter of live or death if one succumb to it or not. point is, that if someone succumb to any behaviour due to a computer game, this person should not play computergames at all - the problem is not the game but the persons weak will... what would be next? blaming computergames for the sorry state of our world? i bet greta would like that idea...

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11 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

indeed the same goes for that: you only contemplating your own point of view in that - ok, i might be too, though i tried to state it this way (successfully or not, that i leave for the readers to decide). to make it clear: any effect of compulsion is for each person to succumb or not - even breathing is a compulsion for everyone... yes, i know but example, but true nonetheless even if this is matter of live or death if one succumb to it or not. point is, that if someone succumb to any behaviour due to a computer game, this person should not play computergames at all - the problem is not the game but the persons weak will... what would be next? blaming computergames for the sorry state of our world? i bet greta would like that idea...

But see, here's the issue - I'm not basing my argument on what I feel compelled to buy. I'm not discussing my opinion on the matter here, but rather interpreting design intent. While progression systems do hold some genuine value for the player, their design goals (especially nowadays) are almost exclusively player retention and monetisation. When I phrase my posts as "DE want you to X," that's not because I want to X, but because I interpret their design as trying to influence me towards X. Sometimes that might not even be intentional on DE's part, such as the infamous Kubrow cosmetics slot machine example they like to give - the one from the NoClip documentary. However, I'm not arguing developer intent but rather DESIGN intent - not necessarily what the developers themselves want me to do, but what the design itself encourages.

Over the years, a lot has been said about psychological conditioning within video games, specifically the wide use of Skinner box design. The reason so many MMOs of the early 2000s moved away from deterministic rewards for a high cost into random rewards was precisely for those reasons. If players are allowed to see the cost of an item ahead of time, they'll show boosted activity as they get near to obtaining it, but then show significantly diminished activity immediately thereafter as they start on the next item. This gives players a psychological "stopping point," and developers don't want that. They don't want you leaving the game satisfied, but rather leaving it with unfinished tasks that you're going to want to pick up next time. Random rewards solve a lot of those issues simply by obfuscating costs. Mathematically, one can calculate the "expected" number of runs to get a given reward, but YOU COULD GET IT ON THE VERY NEXT TRY! This maintains middling activity throughout, simply because players never know how close they are to the next carrot. And those are just random examples off the top of my head.

Warframe's various progression systems are very heavily rooted in Skinner boxes and other forms of psychological conditioning. Daily rewards, crafting timers, Nightwave, etc. - all of those Appointment Mechanics are designed to intrude into your daily routine. They're designed to propose a schedule for how you play the game, offering expiring rewards on a short timer so you log in every day to avoid missing out, but also finite rewards so you run out of things to do every day and anticipate the daily reset. You've noticed, I assume, that we have two daily resets - one for log-in rewards and Nightwave, one for Syndicate standing and Sorties. That's on top of the Cetus day/night cycle and now the Anomaly up/down cycle. Then you have real-money consumables - your Catalysts and Reactors, your Forma, your Exilus Adapters and so on. These are made deliberately dirt cheap on the Market, with Forma even coming in "best value" bundles of 3 for 35 Plat. That's a little under 12 Plat per Forma - a bargain! Meanwhile actually earning those items is made slow, tedious and inconsistent. Catalysts and Reactors are heavily regulated via Nightwave seasonal standing caps, Forma is heavily regulated by build timers and Exilus Adapters are MASSIVELY more expensive to construct than they are to buy. I'd need to sink two Forma into a single Adapter, yet I can straight-up BUY the Adapter for 20 Plat - the cost of a Forma.

And again - this isn't a matter of me feeling like I HAVE to buy these things and that's why I'm crying P2W! My propensity for overspending on fluff is irrelevant here, as is your resistance to the psychological manipulation. Design intent doesn't need to be filtered through personal habits in order to examine it. It's a bit like looking at a TV commercial. Whether you end up buying that magical food supplement which will make you live forever or whether you see through the farce doesn't change the fact that the commercial is still trying to sell you stuff. It's still trying to convince you that you need this stuff, that you want this stuff and that you'll be happier if you bought it. Your reaction to it is separate and apart from its intent. I call Warframe P2W, because my interpretation of the intent behind a LOT of game mechanics is that they're purpose-designed to test player patience as a means of convincing us that we need to spend money, we want to spend money, we'll be happier if we spend money.Whether we actually spend money or not doesn't change that those systems are trying to convince us to do it. Considering the majority of what we can spend money on in Warframe is directly buying power in the form of weapons, Warframes, mods, items, etc., that's why I call it "selling power."

Of course, if you want to argue that my interpretation of design intent is incorrect, then I'm open to hearing it. You'll have to provide a counter interpretation if you want to go that route, though. If these systems weren't intended to push me into spending money, then why were they designed that way?

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

But see, here's the issue - I'm not basing my argument on what I feel compelled to buy. I'm not discussing my opinion on the matter here, but rather interpreting design intent. While progression systems do hold some genuine value for the player, their design goals (especially nowadays) are almost exclusively player retention and monetisation. When I phrase my posts as "DE want you to X," that's not because I want to X, but because I interpret their design as trying to influence me towards X. Sometimes that might not even be intentional on DE's part, such as the infamous Kubrow cosmetics slot machine example they like to give - the one from the NoClip documentary. However, I'm not arguing developer intent but rather DESIGN intent - not necessarily what the developers themselves want me to do, but what the design itself encourages.

Over the years, a lot has been said about psychological conditioning within video games, specifically the wide use of Skinner box design. The reason so many MMOs of the early 2000s moved away from deterministic rewards for a high cost into random rewards was precisely for those reasons. If players are allowed to see the cost of an item ahead of time, they'll show boosted activity as they get near to obtaining it, but then show significantly diminished activity immediately thereafter as they start on the next item. This gives players a psychological "stopping point," and developers don't want that. They don't want you leaving the game satisfied, but rather leaving it with unfinished tasks that you're going to want to pick up next time. Random rewards solve a lot of those issues simply by obfuscating costs. Mathematically, one can calculate the "expected" number of runs to get a given reward, but YOU COULD GET IT ON THE VERY NEXT TRY! This maintains middling activity throughout, simply because players never know how close they are to the next carrot. And those are just random examples off the top of my head.

Warframe's various progression systems are very heavily rooted in Skinner boxes and other forms of psychological conditioning. Daily rewards, crafting timers, Nightwave, etc. - all of those Appointment Mechanics are designed to intrude into your daily routine. They're designed to propose a schedule for how you play the game, offering expiring rewards on a short timer so you log in every day to avoid missing out, but also finite rewards so you run out of things to do every day and anticipate the daily reset. You've noticed, I assume, that we have two daily resets - one for log-in rewards and Nightwave, one for Syndicate standing and Sorties. That's on top of the Cetus day/night cycle and now the Anomaly up/down cycle. Then you have real-money consumables - your Catalysts and Reactors, your Forma, your Exilus Adapters and so on. These are made deliberately dirt cheap on the Market, with Forma even coming in "best value" bundles of 3 for 35 Plat. That's a little under 12 Plat per Forma - a bargain! Meanwhile actually earning those items is made slow, tedious and inconsistent. Catalysts and Reactors are heavily regulated via Nightwave seasonal standing caps, Forma is heavily regulated by build timers and Exilus Adapters are MASSIVELY more expensive to construct than they are to buy. I'd need to sink two Forma into a single Adapter, yet I can straight-up BUY the Adapter for 20 Plat - the cost of a Forma.

And again - this isn't a matter of me feeling like I HAVE to buy these things and that's why I'm crying P2W! My propensity for overspending on fluff is irrelevant here, as is your resistance to the psychological manipulation. Design intent doesn't need to be filtered through personal habits in order to examine it. It's a bit like looking at a TV commercial. Whether you end up buying that magical food supplement which will make you live forever or whether you see through the farce doesn't change the fact that the commercial is still trying to sell you stuff. It's still trying to convince you that you need this stuff, that you want this stuff and that you'll be happier if you bought it. Your reaction to it is separate and apart from its intent. I call Warframe P2W, because my interpretation of the intent behind a LOT of game mechanics is that they're purpose-designed to test player patience as a means of convincing us that we need to spend money, we want to spend money, we'll be happier if we spend money.Whether we actually spend money or not doesn't change that those systems are trying to convince us to do it. Considering the majority of what we can spend money on in Warframe is directly buying power in the form of weapons, Warframes, mods, items, etc., that's why I call it "selling power."

Of course, if you want to argue that my interpretation of design intent is incorrect, then I'm open to hearing it. You'll have to provide a counter interpretation if you want to go that route, though. If these systems weren't intended to push me into spending money, then why were they designed that way?

if i remember correctly, the skinner box is a kind of 'conditioning chamber' used for experimentation on animals by a controled use of sensual stimuli and rewards/punishment based on their action...

if you want to draw an analog to video games with this, you could as well draw it to every aspect of our live - it is used about everywhere and about everytime of our lives... education, advertisment, trafic control and the way emergency ways are placed in buildings... you can't escape psychological manipulation most of the time when even your own thoughts will manipulate your action (willingly or not). more often than not, those 'manipulations' aren't bad at all but ofc, the same methods used benevolently can be also used against you - and sadly this is often not even illigal.

i agree that the described system is problematical when used on people who are yet too young to see those atempts and counteract them, hence the age restiction on computergames which are not only because of visual contend and language use (though usually those are named responsible there) but also sometimes because of used 'game-mechanics' (gambling games could be named here as an example)... in case of warframe, it might or might not a combination of all such aspects when they tagged it with an age requirement - on the steam page, the introduction video contains as reason for the "17+" rating (differs for other parts of the world), 'blood and gore', 'violence', 'user interact' and 'digital purchases' - but not any compulsion due to the "reward/punishment system". one could argue that this would be present at some level even in a game of solitair where no one but the player can get any advantage or disadvantage by playing it, or not... but that's nitpicking. point is, if one fails easily prey to manipulation methods aimed to put them in a disadvantage, this person should either be not allowed such activities (e.g. kids, too young to play certain games) or should avoid those activities if they are old enough to see through them but still feel any compulsion doing it... you can't and shouldn't outright forbid them doing those since it's part of ones own personal liberty - if something goes against standing law, it's adifferent story though.

to end this psychological debate which is somewhat derailing, even though important (just not here ^^): yes, DE uses manipulations in the game as does about every other developer in avery game i can think about. is it bad or does it do damage to the player? no, not that i can see. is it perseivable to the player? i would say yes, it is for a mental fit, adult player to see/feel that they try to 'manipulate' the players behaviour in certain ways... or that they try at least - many of those are circumvented by ingenious players (which is sometimes a somewhat unintended minigame of outsmart the devs ^^)

personally, i somewhat disagree to draw an analogy between the "operant conditioning chamber" (aka skinner box) and videogames that are not pure gambling in nature (like slotmachines and such). ofc, that is a thin line and mostly one owns point of view. you named the also often hot debated part in warframes reward system too: the RNG used... well, about everywhere where not 'fixed' rewards are given out in the game. usually when a discussion around the RNG breaks lose, there are some who will instantly suspect such a number generator being rigged by the devs in some way or the other - this also would be a psychological manipulation and is made even worse by the fact that it can't not really disproved (or proved too) even if they would lay open the sourcecode of it. usually i find those speculations pointless, but it also shows me that there is an awareness at least in enough people (even if some overdo it at times) against manipulations (real or imagined ones) - i therefore can't really condemn many of the used methods in warframe or other games (though i still can feel annoyed by them and avoid those games - microtransactions in many game causes this to me) and instead expect the people to grow more wise to their own behaviour and to spot manipulation attempts themself and act accordently to their own moral concept to such - something i feel much more important form any adult person to do than letting some definitions or laws declare what we can/can't do (ofc, there a borders to that too).

i do agree though that DE could use some other ways in the general reward system and specifically in the NW-system - there were many threads about such ideas since we got nightwave, so i'll refrain from repeating them - but hopefully the devs read them and though about them too... my thread was therefore more or less just an reminder that there are some people who think the current way of doing suboptimal and improvable (not altogether bad as some people makes it though).

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14 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

personally, i somewhat disagree to draw an analogy between the "operant conditioning chamber" (aka skinner box) and videogames that are not pure gambling in nature (like slotmachines and such).

Please understand that I don't mean to insult, but this stance is naive to the point of coming across as uninformed. Conditioning players to act against their own self-interest has nothing at all to do with gambling. MMOs have been experimenting with it for over 20 years and attempted a wide range of tools over time. I mentioned some of them that you kind of glossed over, so let me resort to something I was hoping I wouldn't have to: Let's go whaling. It's a 2016 speech by Torulf Jernström on the tricks of F2P monetisation. I know it seems like a cheapshot since I'm pretty sure everyone's seen that when it blew up on YouTube, but it's a decent example of predatory monetisation by means of psychological conditioning. Then there's that Activision patent for microtransactions-based matchmaking. Also common knowledge, but also worth highlighting. There are other examples, but these are the easy ones. The throughline here is the attempt on the side of "video games" to condition players to act in ways which go against our own self-interest but generate revenue for the developer/publisher. Crucially, none of these examples are "gambling in nature."

Gambling IS a common issue, yes, but it's one of many. This is why I'm not exactly celebrating the decline of lootboxes. Yes, lootboxes are terrible and need to be regulated as actual gambling and stop showing in our video games - make no mistake. They're hardly the only - or really, worst - excess in monetisation, however. Though the video game industry might have buckled over government and public pressure in moving away from lootboxes, the situation hasn't exactly improved. What's risen to replace lootboxes is just as bad and arguably worse. Notice how we're seeing a rise on Battle Pass mechanics. Notice how we're seeing a rise on selling power directly. Notice how we're seeing a sharp increase in grind with a compendium of "optional" boosters. Notice how we're seeing a significant rise in daily login rewards, weekly login rewards, one-time only exclusive events, cumulative exclusive events, etc. All of this is a resurgence of monetisation mechanics we've seen before.

Gambling was a flash in the pan of video games. It gained popularity quickly, stuck around briefly and is now already on a sharp decline. In the meantime, we're seeing a resurgence of all the terrible monetisation schemes of the late 2000s, early 2010s. All of the Appointment Mechanics that every game has to have these days trace their roots in the old HTML "strategy" games of the late 2000s, finally codified by Farmville - a thing that was less a game and more a skinner box intended to keep coming back every day and pestering your friends until they're hooked as well. Then there's the subscription fee which all MMOs in the early 2000s had, ostensibly to cover the excessively expensive cost of hosting. There are no more subscriptions any more, though! Except monthly boosters and the Battle Pass and overpriced "packs" which sell power and... Basically, nothing has changed since 2004/2005, other than players have become convinced that they're paying because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to in order to access the service.

The reason I keep insisting on this is because the quality of video game design has taken a massive nosedive over the last 10-15 years. Sure, the games themselves are still just as fun - arguably a lot better with decades of experience in the field. At the same time, however, games are more and more undermined by their own monetisation. Live Services (what we used to call MMOs) were always designed with a consideration towards keeping players around so they can be monetised, but modern video games are actively sabotaging the fun of their own playerbase, then selling us the solution to the problems they create. Modern monetisation is almost entirely based around making us feel just miserable enough to want to pay money to make it stop, but not so miserable that we'd quit altogether. That's how psychological conditioning works. You don't want your players happy because they'll have their fun and leave - or so seems to go the rationale. You want them with perpetually mixed feelings - happy enough to stick around but unhappy enough to keep paying for boosters and consumables and to remove the artificial gates you put in there for that very reason.

Psychological conditioning is what makes money in a modern Live Service, and that's by design. In order for the psychological conditioning to work, the experience of playing the game needs to be made deliberately painful and unpleasant in at least some ways, and that directly impacts us as end users. Even if you choose to not pay, even if you choose to play completely for free, you're still in constant psychological combat against conditioning which is - ultimately - designed to make you act against your own self-interest.

 

15 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

if you want to draw an analog to video games with this, you could as well draw it to every aspect of our live - it is used about everywhere and about everytime of our lives... education, advertisment, trafic control and the way emergency ways are placed in buildings... you can't escape psychological manipulation most of the time when even your own thoughts will manipulate your action (willingly or not). more often than not, those 'manipulations' aren't bad at all but ofc, the same methods used benevolently can be also used against you - and sadly this is often not even illigal.

That's not a fair comparison, however. You can't throw emergency exists and advertising in the same category. The whole point of traffic laws, emergency exits, education, etc. is to act in your benefit. The point of advertising, by contrast, is to convince you to overpay for crap you neither want nor need. I've grown increasingly more fed up with modern advertising, to the point where I've just about stopped watching TV altogether simply out of sheer irritation about commercial breaks. It's the same reason I will shamelessly run AdBlock on everything and simply not go to sites which demand I turn it off. Not only are ads fundamentally disruptive and annoying, I've grown increasingly disillusioned with the subversive nature of their narrative.

That is, however, a good comparison to F2P titles, though. Playing plenty of modern video games feels like sitting through a never-ending commercial break for their paid services. Except a shampoo commercial can't literally make your hair greasy and force you to use shampoo RIGHT NOW. Video games can do that. If a video game wants to convince you that you need extra inventory slots, it's fully capable of dropping a bazillion trash items on you and aggressively limiting your default inventory. That's what most F2P titles do, as a point of fact. Similarly, if a game wants to convince you that you need an XP booster, it can simply set XP gains so low that progression becomes a painful waste of time. You're never outright FORCED to pay - the days of $14.95/month subscriptions is over. But we still end up paying anyway, and well in excess of that. Maybe YOU, personally, don't. And that's the trick. No individual has to pay $15 a month as long as the population on average does. Congratulations - you resisted the conditioning. Developer don't give a crap, because I failed to resist the conditioning and now sit at something €500-€600 into Warframe after less than a couple of years of playing it. That's closer to $28 per month, so I'm close-ish to paying for at least one other person in the old MMO sense.

As before, the throughline here is that this psychological conditioning that modern video games and ESPECIALLY Warframe use to monetise themselves is all too often (almost universaly) against our own self-interest. And I don't mean that from a pure monetary sense, either. It's a video game, it needs money to pay for hosting and development, I get that. I don't trying playing F2P games for actual free any more, because that's not how they're designed to be played. I don't actually regret the money I've spent on Warframe. However, the process of contitioning itself actively degrades the experience. Build timers exist for nothing more than monetisation, as a specific example. There's no player-sided gameplay benefit to needing 3 days to build a Warframe on top of the time and effort needed to acquire the parts and materials. It exists to test your patience in a moment of perceived happiness that finally have the pieces, in the hopes that you'll show weakness and pay to make the artificial boundary go away. It's there to make you feel bad at a time when you're feeling good and thus hopefully feeling loose enough with your purse to pay the bad feelings to go away.

 

15 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

to end this psychological debate which is somewhat derailing, even though important (just not here ^^): yes, DE uses manipulations in the game as does about every other developer in avery game i can think about. is it bad or does it do damage to the player? no, not that i can see. is it perseivable to the player? i would say yes, it is for a mental fit, adult player to see/feel that they try to 'manipulate' the players behaviour in certain ways... or that they try at least - many of those are circumvented by ingenious players (which is sometimes a somewhat unintended minigame of outsmart the devs ^^)

I strongly disagree, but let's unpack this a little bit. For one thing, the "mentally fit adult" line of conversation is honestly kind of patronising. For one thing, a large percentage of the gaming public is made up of people made vulnerable for reasons not always within their control. One of the reasons lootboxes got such severe pushback is they were literally ruining the lives of people with addictive personalities and gambling addiction - and this was by design. The lootbox model deliberately preyed on vulnerable people. It's easy to hand-wave it away as "Well, that's their fault for being weak!" but video games are a form of entertainment not the Thunderdome. When they start being hazardous to grown adults is when I call them what they are - predatory.

Even if we disregard vulnerable people, though - screw them, it's their fault for overpaying! Even then, we're still left with supposed entertainment more concerned with wearing down my psychological defences by degrees than providing me actual entertainment. What should be fun and games becomes a constant mental battle between me as a random schmuck on the Internet and trained psychologists with degrees in behaviour science. Maybe you're just remarkably resilient and place low value on your own time, which is fair enough - I'm happy that you're enjoying it. For me, however, gaming feels increasingly more like a constant, draining struggle between myself trying to extract some entertainment value for a reasonable price and game developers stubbornly refusing to provide any unless I pay more, more, more. It's why I stopped playing World of Tanks altogether despite that being a legitimately good game. Its monetisation utterly ruined it by turning the game into almost entirely P2W. They're apparently working to address this now, but it seems like they'll just turn around and make it "grind 2 win," instead.

Warframe is barrelling headlong in the same direction with Railjack and Kuva Liches. More grind, more avarice for money, less content, less fun. DE seem to have realised this and - at least judging by Developer Streams and Workshops - seem to be trying to pull out of a nosedive. I'll believe it when I see it, though. As the game stands right now, the last few releases have been almost entirely Skinner box with almost no compelling content. I'm willing to see how they remedy this, but I'm officially out of credit to give them for bad design like this any more.

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Please understand that I don't mean to insult, but this stance is naive to the point of coming across as uninformed. Conditioning players to act against their own self-interest has nothing at all to do with gambling. MMOs have been experimenting with it for over 20 years and attempted a wide range of tools over time. I mentioned some of them that you kind of glossed over, so let me resort to something I was hoping I wouldn't have to: Let's go whaling. It's a 2016 speech by Torulf Jernström on the tricks of F2P monetisation. I know it seems like a cheapshot since I'm pretty sure everyone's seen that when it blew up on YouTube, but it's a decent example of predatory monetisation by means of psychological conditioning. Then there's that Activision patent for microtransactions-based matchmaking. Also common knowledge, but also worth highlighting. There are other examples, but these are the easy ones. The throughline here is the attempt on the side of "video games" to condition players to act in ways which go against our own self-interest but generate revenue for the developer/publisher. Crucially, none of these examples are "gambling in nature."

like i said, conditioning of people is something that is used everywhere and was always being used in any group bigger than 2 people - it's essentially the way of social interactionalism. the question of this being therefore ok or not is another though but since one owns 'self-interest' usually conflicts with the 'self-interests' of many others, you can see it both ways.

people who understand that they always being manipulated, from everyone else, still can't avoid this from happen even if they would decide to becom an hermit - even then they would 'manipulate' themself in their thought, and often enough against their own self-interest too... i don't see much use of comdemning any use of psychological manipulation since it wouldn't be possible at all.

i saw jernströms lecture and found that it was funny how anyone could have been suprised by the most obvious methods he described there... i got the notion then, that either are too ignorant and/or too unintrested in thinking or acting for themself and are likely deserving that others manipulate them in ways counter to their self-interest... which nature, also likely, many people don't even realize. in progress i realized that this is a sentiment that was used since time immemorial from those who deemed themself 'leaders' of the people. using those methods for monetizing endevours is just another aspect of 'governing' the people - and the people still want to be used that way, else they would need to think for themself (which likely would scare the ѕhit right out of most ^^)

btw, "predatory monetisation by means of psychological conditioning" is exactly the same as monetizing from (some) peoples urge for gamling - or who do you thought is usually at the reciving end of money spend there? only the tools of trade differs from case to case - it's still using psychology and the tricks it offers.

by no way i think of my point of view naive or even ignorant - i don't like the way it is, but don't like many things either that i still have to accept of being part of the life. i've certainly enough on my own plate to worry about even those integrate parts of human nature - i also know that i can use those tools easily myself (and about everyone does use them too  to some extend - even if they don't realize this themself most of the time).

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3 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

by no way i think of my point of view naive or even ignorant - i don't like the way it is, but don't like many things either that i still have to accept of being part of the life. i've certainly enough on my own plate to worry about even those integrate parts of human nature - i also know that i can use those tools easily myself (and about everyone does use them too  to some extend - even if they don't realize this themself most of the time).

I don't find this position convincing. You claim to not approve of these tactics, yet here you are devoting quite a bit of time to not just defending them, but working to normalise them and slag their victims. No, we can't fix everything we don't like, but I still have to assume that at the very least NOT defending practices you claim to dislike would be easier and more productive. Not everyone has to be part of the solution, obviously - I'm the last person to advocate for activism. But at the very least try to not be part of the problem and maybe don't actively oppose people trying to point out issues in the industry. Because public pressure can get things done and has done so in the past. The whole reason major AAA publishers are moving away from lootboxes is exactly BECAUSE the game-playing public turned them toxic, from a business perspective. Sure, some titles still launch with lootboxes especially on mobile, but major game releases have shifted to other practices, with the Battle Pass emerging as the new popular thing.

I don't expect anything I say here to single-handedly change the industry, but I'm hardly the only one saying these things. DE might disregard individual people, but criticism of their business practices is on the rise. It's why they took Repair Drones off the Market one people pointed out it was clear P2W. In recent Developer Streams and Workshops, the tone we're getting out of them is a realisation of having crossed a line and trying to walk back. This sort of talk might not be enough, but it has an effect. This is why it annoys me when people claim to be neutral on a subject yet consistently come back to defend one side of an argument.

Moreover, this argument is nihilistic at its core. Everybody does it, you can't stop it, so why even bother? You can make the same argument about everything from exaggerated issues like "there will always be crime, why bother trying to police it" to "everyone's corrupt, so why shouldn't I be on the take" to a very Warframe specific "we're never going to have balance, so why bother trying" and beyond. Just because big business will always attempt to exploit the end user doesn't mean the end user should shut up, keep their head down and take it. That's how fundamentally abnormal, exploitative behaviour is normalise because "well, what can you do?" And ultimately, I would be fine with indifference - like I said. It's aggressive indifference that I take issue with - the kind which chastises me for not being just as indifferent.

 

3 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

btw, "predatory monetisation by means of psychological conditioning" is exactly the same as monetizing from (some) peoples urge for gamling - or who do you thought is usually at the reciving end of money spend there? only the tools of trade differs from case to case - it's still using psychology and the tricks it offers.

Yeah, and? I never claimed gambling wasn't a form of predatory monetisation. I merely pointed out that it's not the end-all-be-all of predatory monetisation. It's a drop in the ocean and merely the one aspect which has gotten the most news lately, but video games have plenty of other methods, many just as bad if not arguably worse. We were talking about video game addiction and unhealthy habits and all the other late 90s/early 2000s "video games are ruining children" guff for decades before the likes of EA, Activision and Warner Brothers turned their products into glorified virtual casinos. This is a distinction without a difference.

 

3 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i saw jernströms lecture and found that it was funny how anyone could have been suprised by the most obvious methods he described there... i got the notion then, that either are too ignorant and/or too unintrested in thinking or acting for themself and are likely deserving that others manipulate them in ways counter to their self-interest... which nature, also likely, many people don't even realize. in progress i realized that this is a sentiment that was used since time immemorial from those who deemed themself 'leaders' of the people. using those methods for monetizing endevours is just another aspect of 'governing' the people - and the people still want to be used that way, else they would need to think for themself (which likely would scare the ѕhit right out of most ^^)

The outrage isn't about the contents of the presentation. None of that was news even when he made it. What galled people was that he was saying these things out in the open with not a hint of irony. We all knew that these forms of predatory monetisation existed, but businesses were still supposed to at least pretend to have their audience's best interest at heart. Instead, here's this con man who's basically explaining all the most efficient ways to swindle people out of their money like that's the most natural, acceptable thing to do. Here's a dude listing all the ways in which the gameplay experience is undermined and degraded, because the goal is to make people miserable enough to pay. While not a crime, listening to him is just as disturbing as listening to a criminal explaining the details behind his own crime, seemingly not understanding why it's a big deal in the first place. Or if you want a more Warframe example, this is analogous to hearing about how "Warframe is all about grind." Yeah, but that's the statement of a problem, not an excuse.

Moreover, I find this notion that some people "deserve" to be exploited because they happen to be vulnerable to be frankly pretty galling, especially when combined with that straw man. People who get exploited by predatory monetisation (that is, go into debt, alienate their family and friends, develop compulsive habits) don't suffer because they're "ignorant or uninterested." They don't suffer because they're dumb, in much the same way as morbidly obese people don't eat because they're hungry. Boogie had a pretty profound quote on the matter a while ago - "I don't eat to live, I eat to die." Most morbidly obese people struggle with depression both caused by and causing their obesity. In fact, you can make the same argument about drugs. "Eh, if people are dumb enough to get addicted to drugs, they deserve to lose their homes, their families, their freedom and eventually their lives. I'm clearly not dumb enough to do it, so whatever happens to them is their fault." Again - there's a significant difference between "I don't like it but it's a fact of life" and "no, these people deserve to suffer."

Yes, people have a certain amount of responsibility to look after themselves. However, an industry which treats its customer base with open contempt and giggling disregard is going to generate criticism, complaints and backlash. I guess my point here is why do you feel compelled to oppose the backlash. What damage do you feel putting pressure on companies towards more pro-consumer practices do you feel actually does?

 

*edit*
Just for the record - I'm not trying to condemn you. However, I make it a point to speak up any time I see normalisation of predatory monetisation practices in video games. This should not be accepted as normal. Even if nothing comes of it, I feel it's important that it's a big deal every single time it comes up.

Edited by Steel_Rook
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On 2020-01-27 at 11:50 PM, -AxHx-Vile said:

No matter where the limit is set (because this is DE, there will be some limit regardless), someone will always reach it and ask for more...smh...

Maybe because us new/returning players still need to collect everything. It doesn't hurt you consistent players (i assume) to increase it at all. Smh...

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