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Condition Overload is Poop. Thoughts?


LoneWolveYoutube
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Context: Condition Overload was changed from 60% Bonus Damage per Status Effect that is affecting the target -> 120% Melee Damage Per Status Effect affecting the target.

Condition Overload has gone from one of my favorite mods to one of my least favorite very fast. 

In one swoop they not only nerfed the mod, but they made it almost mandatory for melees.  It's currently overshadowing Prime Pressure Point, and it is so strong that people have begun giving up Melee Damage rivens in favor of Critical Damage to pair with Blood Rush.  I feel like every build except for weird nice weapons is the exact same.  CD As Range - Riven with blood rush, weeping sounds, condition overload.  If it's not that it's either Sac Steel, CD As Range - Riven with combo mods.  I feel like the changes not only nerfed the melee class, but they also killed what little build variety already existed. 😕

Idk.  I'd have rather seen a small Condition Overload nerf like maybe 40-55% instead of 60%.  The current Melee damage version just pushes Primed Pressure Point out of too many builds and has killed build variety.

 

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Build variety? We had those who wielded zaws and those who used rivens to try to stay relevant. 

Of course you can't mod however you like. Or can you? Heat Dagger with all the speed, just finisher damage boost? Why not? The game isn't punishing me as hard as before. 

Build variety depends more on what you want to build for. 

 

Condition overload is only useful against enemies vulnerable to status effects. Sentients, Kuva liches and objects aren't vulnerable to those. Which is where crit comes in, or in the case of objects, raw damage.

 

So, the mod is useful in general, but specific enemies just don't care. 

Edited by Sunai_Moonswing
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Being that it was bonus, exponentially increasing with itself the only way it would've been balanced would've been to make it like... 10-15%, absolutely no more than 20%. Why? 

I mean, 7 statuses isn't hard, IPS + corrosive heat radiation on a Kuva Brakk with no riven is 6 statuses in one or two shots, along with near full armor strip in just a few more. Then, a Gas or Viral melee easily makes 7. That's just 1.2^7, which is 3.58, or a 2.58x FINAL damage multiplier. 

To put that in perspective, Rhino needs +400% power strength, totaling at 500 ability strength, to get to 250%, for something near 100 energy, which absolutely must be cast only AFTER obtaining an energy orb, being linked by Nidus, and shooting an enemy with Pax Bolt and then immediately casting in 3 seconds. 

Excalibur, with a more similar buff, needs 215% power strength (just Umbral Intensify with the full set, and Energy conversion) but REQUIRES at least 12 enemies to have been visible and aware of Excalibur, after getting an energy orb, within 25 meters and with an effective duration of 13 seconds, and gets decast on Umbra if you decide to use Operator. 

It was absolutely mandatory because you got to 4.1 -- 3.1x -- total damage at just 3 statuses, which you could do with JUST a sentinel gun,  

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PPP is better for content where you're dealing enough damage to kill enemies in like 1-2 hits, otherwise CO is better for the damage scaling. Unless you're using a heavy attack build which, on certain weapons, can one-shot into some pretty high level ranges.

And if anything we have slightly more build variety than we did previously just because we have heavy attack builds now. Pretty much every old build still works and the only thing that really suffered was memestrike builds which are still viable for 95%+ of the content we have.

All in all the PPP vs CO situation is really the same as it was before the changes as PPP alone was still fine if your build could one-shot enemies. The only real change is that the difference in their damage potential isn't gigantic anymore.

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I feel like it would have made sense if it worked like before, but instead of multiplying it added 60% every time.

I usually end up using primed pressure point or sometimes sacrificial pressure anyway. As mentioned already, liches and sentients are immune to status (which is a bad decision imo), so it only becomes better in very long survivals and situations like that. I'm not sure how big the difference would be again railjack enemies, but for condition overload to be worth it, you still need multiple hits to stack it up.

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if you don't like that it makes other generic Damage Mods less interersting - idunno that's a good ting, that for once it's mathematically beneficial to not use those Mods sometimes.
and then that lets people think about a couple other Mods.

that's the only positive part about Condition Overload if you ask me, that they accidentally made generic Base Damage Bonuses less interesting for Melee. this specific aspect increased Modding variety, while everything else about Melee v3 reduced it.

20 minutes ago, Sunai_Moonswing said:

Condition overload is only useful against enemies vulnerable to status effects. Sentients, Kuva liches and objects aren't vulnerable to those. Which is where crit comes in, or in the case of objects, raw damage.

it's just one Mod Slot, you don't have to give up much of anything to have Condition Overload. you can still have the other stuff.

 

8 minutes ago, trst said:

Pretty much every old build still works and the only thing that really suffered was memestrike builds which are still viable for 95%+ of the content we have.

erm
Melee Weapons without good Crit Stats suffered the most, since they can't use Condition Overload to make them worthy contenders anymore. they just straight up run out of things to Mod for. and they're left just stacking 3+ Attack Speed Mods.

Edited by taiiat
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1 minute ago, trst said:

And if anything we have slightly more build variety than we did previously just because we have heavy attack builds now. Pretty much every old build still works and the only thing that really suffered was memestrike builds which are still viable for 95%+ of the content we have.

I'm pretty sure the greater build variety is simply, because the new system is still pretty new. And then there is also the question, if you actually have real variety or if the builds are essentially the same and only change in minor aspects.

Another factor is, that melee is simply OP now. As a result you don't need to min-max as much and have some freedom to do what you like personally.

1 minute ago, trst said:

All in all the PPP vs CO situation is really the same as it was before the changes as PPP alone was still fine if your build could one-shot enemies. The only real change is that the difference in their damage potential isn't gigantic anymore.

It's more down to the fact, that they give the same type of bonus now. Before they multiplied and now they add. And of course condition overload doesn't multiply with itself anymore, which makes it much weaker.

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5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if you don't like that it makes other generic Damage Mods less interersting - idunno that's a good ting, that for once it's mathematically beneficial to not use those Mods sometimes.
and then that lets people think about a couple other Mods.

that's the only positive part about Condition Overload if you ask me, that they accidentally made generic Base Damage Bonuses less interesting for Melee. 

it's just one Mod Slot, you don't have to give up much of anything to have Condition Overload. you can still have the other stuff.

 

erm
Melee Weapons without good Crit Stats suffered the most, since they can't use Condition Overload to make them worthy contenders anymore. they just straight up run out of things to Mod for. and they're left just stacking 3+ Attack Speed Mods.

As you are saying yourself, weapons without good crit stats run out of good mod options. Good crit weapons on the other hand have enough options, where running both condition overload and primed pressure point isn't worth it. So in the end we are just using crit builds and ignoring the status builds and weapons, which includes condition overload.

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15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's just one Mod Slot, you don't have to give up much of anything to have Condition Overload. you can still have the other stuff.

Each and every mod slot is worth anywhere from 50% to 100% (or more) extra damage on a properly built weapon. That's not insignificant. Actually, that's an understatement, in fact damage is almost exponential with respect to the number of mods equipped. and it's this kind of misreading of the opportunity cost of a mod slot by DE that gives them such a hard time getting players to use anything but meta mods. For example, amalgam mods had to have about 90% to 95% of the value of a regular mod on their main stats for players to consider using them.

Edited by schilds
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4 minutes ago, gluih said:

Good crit weapons on the other hand have enough options, where running both condition overload and primed pressure point isn't worth it. So in the end we are just using crit builds and ignoring the status builds and weapons, which includes condition overload.

said Crit Weapons should totally have space for Condition Overload too anyways - maybe if one has a very strong desire for multipile Utility Mods they could run out of space? i.e. desiring high Attack Speed and extra high Range, or something of that sort?

 

3 minutes ago, schilds said:

Each and every mod slot is worth anywhere from 50% to 100% (or more) extra damage on a properly built weapon.

what? no it isn't, you know better than that. the relative bonus of the last Mod Slot isn't anywhere near that dramatic, because you generally already have on most of the other strong Mods in the first place. if you already had Base Damage, Crits, some Attack Speed, and some Elemental Mods - any particular thing you add onto those is generally in the 30% relative Damage area, only say, having a Riven for a second Base Damage Bonus would be able to get to the area of 1.5-2x.
adding more Crit Damage is ~30% (~50% if you're Red Critting), adding another Elemental Mod after 2 is ~25-40%, adding another Attack Speed Mod after already having one is ~30% (unless we're talking about Berserker being the way to get such a high relative bonus through its broken math)...
there definitely are not individual Mods that have a relative bonus anywhere near that. unless you're talking about having Hit Counter Mods on but not having Hit Counter extension and so comparing Hit Counter vs no Hit Counter - but why would you have chosen to dump such a Mod vs a secondary source of some Stat that you already have a significant amount of.

the first 6 Mod Slots i'd totally agree, but then it starts dropping sharply from there.

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  1. +Damage (> 2x)
  2. +Crit chance (> 2x),
  3. +Crit damage (1.9x),
  4. +Status chance (> 2x),
  5. +Attack speed (1.75x),
  6. +Element (1.9x or 2.65x),
  7. +Range (> 2x)
  8. +Element (1.5x), or +combo duration (hard to quantify), or maybe a riven (> 2x even at just 2 or 3 disposition)

And that's before we even count elemental bonuses or try to quantify interactions with armour.

There's no way it "drops sharply". Maybe on a non-crit weapon when you start stacking a 3rd and 4th element we get down to the numbers you're quoting, but then ... this is the reason why such weapons are not considered end-game :-P.

Basically, we have 7 mods for 7 different stats. They all multiply. There's an 8th mod that *might* stack additively with one of the previous ones (but could also be for a different, 8th, stat). If that's a riven, then on individual stats it might be 30% to 50% extra dmg, but on a combination of 2 or 3 different stats the result is equivalent to another (roughly) 2x multiplier (or more).

Edited by schilds
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1 minute ago, taiiat said:

said Crit Weapons should totally have space for Condition Overload too anyways - maybe if one has a very strong desire for multipile Utility Mods they could run out of space? i.e. desiring high Attack Speed and extra high Range, or something of that sort?

You are always running 1 base damage mod.
I just run primed reach on everything now.
You probably want 1 slot to increase your combo count. This can be duration, extra build up and initial combo.
1 or 2 elemental damage mods are good, because they multiply with everything else. The second one is good, because combined elementals are generally stronger, especially against armor.
Because we are talking about crit weapons here, you want at least blood rush or sacrificial steel.
To scale that up you want crit damage of course.
I usually run life strike on all of my builds, which not everybody does. On the other hand I also drop the attack speed on a lot of weapons.
And then you can think about riven mods(although they sometimes also replace something else), killing blow, condition overload, weeping wounds and so on.

That's 8+ different slots, so not really any room in most cases.

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My biggest gripe is the change to primed reach.  I don't feel like I'm switching weapon classes when moving between Kronen P, Nikana P, and Dokrahm pole zaw.  I feel like I'm changing stances, and since there are like 5 decent stances in the game, it gets very old quick.  Add the extremely homogenized build for every single weapon and its completely turned me off to building any new melee weapons as I already know exactly what the feel and build will be just by glancing at the stats.  Did the melee/CO/WW/BR/PR changes make crap weapons viable as long as they have at least 15-16% cc?  With BR, sure.  But everything feels the same.  Little tonfa's that visually appear about 15in long have nearly the same reach as a polearm that is visually taller than your frame.  I don't ever switch weapons/builds now as there is no point unless doing lvl120+ grineer, then I swap a CD mod out for Weeping.  Thrilling...

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2 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

The current Melee damage version has killed build variety.

I agree completely. It used to be you went crit if you wanted to use mostly melee, because then you'd build combo and carry your damage buff with you. You'd go status if you wanted to use melee occasionally to take out specific tough enemies, since it was very strong but applying a large number of statuses to a large number of enemies was impractical. The way it's now is just stupid and pointless.

Edited by SordidDreams
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4 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

and has killed build variety.

Lol, what build variety? Before the melee work, the top melee build for high level enemies (where it actually matters) was a hybrid (BR + CO). It still is, it just doesn't have the same absurd infinite scaling. There was no real building, you either went memeing strike for non-endless content for easy braindead slide kills, or you went BR + CO for top damage.

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So don't play it. Problem solved.

All together now: "meta is a word that means absolutely nothing in Warframe, because it's a non-competitive game with no real stakes, and 90% of the enemies you'll ever face are so weak they easily die to any weapon built in any way".

So you can play whatever you want, however you want, and who's gonna tell you that doing so is wrong? Some youtuber? They're a non-productive bunch whose opinions don't affect anything or anybody. That guy with an attitude and a super optimal build? Find better teammates, or play solo.

If you don't like a mod, don't use it. Easy solution right there.

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Even with a weapon with mutliple elements? I keep hearing and seeing that if a weapon has multiple status effects, then use Condition overload instead of primed pressure point at all. 

If you are running normal level content PPP works perfectly well, no time to add status' as the enemies die too quickly.

All it takes is 2 status' for Condition to give you higher damage % (165 at max vs 2X 120) so it makes a pretty big difference. Status from various sources buildup fast.

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4 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

Context: Condition Overload was changed from 60% Bonus Damage per Status Effect that is affecting the target -> 120% Melee Damage Per Status Effect affecting the target.

Condition Overload has gone from one of my favorite mods to one of my least favorite very fast. 

In one swoop they not only nerfed the mod, but they made it almost mandatory for melees.  It's currently overshadowing Prime Pressure Point, and it is so strong that people have begun giving up Melee Damage rivens in favor of Critical Damage to pair with Blood Rush.  I feel like every build except for weird nice weapons is the exact same.  CD As Range - Riven with blood rush, weeping sounds, condition overload.  If it's not that it's either Sac Steel, CD As Range - Riven with combo mods.  I feel like the changes not only nerfed the melee class, but they also killed what little build variety already existed. 😕

Idk.  I'd have rather seen a small Condition Overload nerf like maybe 40-55% instead of 60%.  The current Melee damage version just pushes Primed Pressure Point out of too many builds and has killed build variety.

 

Build variety is slim when it comes to Melees, lower than how it was in 2.0. In the lvl 100 area, the build Variety wouldn’t change that much but in a lvl 200 - 300+ Solo Survivals, there’s definitely a Limit since they made Status/Hybrid builds for Melees work like the ones for Guns besides the Combo Counter. Only time i see Primed Pressure Point being more useful is when you’re dealing with a Enemy that’s Status Immune like Liches or Thumpers. Outside of that, seeya PPP and hello Condition Overload.

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59 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Even with a weapon with mutliple elements? I keep hearing and seeing that if a weapon has multiple status effects, then use Condition overload instead of primed pressure point at all. 

It ultimately depends on what you play, weapon, and how you use it. In most situations (when modded well) PPP will be better due to enemies dying too quickly for CO to really matter. Some weapons, especially with a Riven, can actually give up PPP and CO and go for other things like extra attack speed. 

If you sit in missions for a very long time, then CO would be more useful due to PPP no longer letting you kill enemies quickly.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Even with a weapon with mutliple elements? I keep hearing and seeing that if a weapon has multiple status effects, then use Condition overload instead of primed pressure point at all. 

I tried a CO build on Lesion with multiple status. It took forever for it to kill some level 100 heavies. It took something like my crit and corrosive Gram P significantly less time.

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I tried a CO build on Lesion with multiple status. It took forever for it to kill some level 100 heavies. It took something like my crit and corrosive Gram P significantly less time.

^^Side effect of making CO buffing Base Damage. Pretty much makes Status Heavy Melees like if they are Status Heavy Primaries without a great amount of Crit.

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