Condition Overload is Poop. Thoughts?

[NoMoreFAIL]

Let's be honest. Build variety wasn't great before melee 3.0 and it's not great after it. The good thing about melee 3.0 is that it made a lot of melee weapons useful.

I really like that fist/sparring weapons now have decent range. What I don't like is that they have almost the same range as polearms and staves. I get it that my zaws having 11m+ was a bit overkill but they now have the the same range as a fist weapon and in my book this is not ok. Maybe they should've been at 7-9m with Primed Reach but 6m vs 5.7m for example is just ridiculous. I guess it was done for balancing reasons but it still irks me.

Top build used to be hybrid (crit+status) and they still are. Sure, you go pure crit for liches since they are status immune but against enemies like high level Nox without status (armor/health reduction) you are just tickling them. Now we just remove Primed Pressure Point from every weapon with decent status and replace it with a 60/60 or 90 and that's it. Melee builds now are more crit based but pretty much still the same. It's just that now CO is pretty much atuoinclude in every build.

Edited January 29, 2020 by NoMoreFAIL

[Mover-NeRo]

We live in Crit meta atm. And with upcomming armor reduction for high lvl enemies it will be even more Crit meta.

CO was really nice mod for status based melee. But now with crit chance mod buffs you might as well just go with crit build.

Status as it is now is underpowered and useless.

[SneakyErvin]

CO is great on everything that can easily apply 2 statuses, it is great versus everything that isnt status immune.

You either pick CO or PPP depending on the content you run. So the places where you dont use CO would be for specific bosses aswell as Liches and Sentients, although I tend to just shoot the sentients due to their floating being annoying.

[vegetosayajin]

CO performs way better in all my builds than primed pp.
It's not as op as before, but it's still the best mod you can put on.Those struggling should check some new builds because they are clearly doing something wrong.
I don't have use for ppp anymore, it's trash compared to co.

[tzadquiel]

4 hours ago, NoMoreFAIL said:

Let's be honest. Build variety wasn't great before melee 3.0 and it's not great after it. The good thing about melee 3.0 is that it made a lot of melee weapons useful.

that is like... your opinion, man. with lots of new melees being breathed a new life into them, this paved the way for new builds. but, if you are choosing to not be using those alternative builds, there is only one party here to blame. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

Man, this argument is still raging on. Dunno why.

Below level 150-170, PPP is better. Above that, CO is better. But it is mostly irrelevant content. And this may come as surprise to some... you can use both. I still do not think CO is worth it on any weapon before level 150 or so. Beside PPP, there are many other mods that work better when you can kill mobs in under 2 secs.

[Morthal]

Best to have both mods equipped if possible. If a riven saves you from using Primed pressure point then all the better.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 14 heures, LoneWolveYoutube a dit :

Context: Condition Overload was changed from 60% Bonus Damage per Status Effect that is affecting the target -> 120% Melee Damage Per Status Effect affecting the target.

Condition Overload has gone from one of my favorite mods to one of my least favorite very fast. 

In one swoop they not only nerfed the mod, but they made it almost mandatory for melees.  It's currently overshadowing Prime Pressure Point, and it is so strong that people have begun giving up Melee Damage rivens in favor of Critical Damage to pair with Blood Rush.  I feel like every build except for weird nice weapons is the exact same.  CD As Range - Riven with blood rush, weeping sounds, condition overload.  If it's not that it's either Sac Steel, CD As Range - Riven with combo mods.  I feel like the changes not only nerfed the melee class, but they also killed what little build variety already existed. 😕

Idk.  I'd have rather seen a small Condition Overload nerf like maybe 40-55% instead of 60%.  The current Melee damage version just pushes Primed Pressure Point out of too many builds and has killed build variety.

 

Lol, what build variety are you even talking about ?

You do the one best build that goes with the weapon base stats, that's it, it has always been it, it'll always be it.

Nerf CO, another mod will take its place, and you'll be right back here, crying about a build diversity that never existed in the first place...

You wanna do stupid sub optimal builds in the name of build diversity ? No one is stoping you.

[LoneWolveYoutube]

4 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Lol, what build variety are you even talking about ?

You do the one best build that goes with the weapon base stats, that's it, it has always been it, it'll always be it.

Nerf CO, another mod will take its place, and you'll be right back here, crying about a build diversity that never existed in the first place...

You wanna do stupid sub optimal builds in the name of build diversity ? No one is stoping you.

Build variety, as in, there isn’t 1 build that is used for 100 weapons.  

[Tiltskillet]

14 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

The current Melee damage version just pushes Primed Pressure Point out of too many builds and has killed build variety.

There's some truth to everything else you're saying, but that right there is a funny take.  PPP was on 99% of optimal builds before, and now that it's not mandatory -that's- what's killed build variety? 😛

 

 

[CoefficientOfCool]

op you sound like you have my problem, wayyyy too many melee rivens with +dmg on em ha.  but reading this thread has given me hope, might try posting some today ha.

Melee 3.0 brought almost everything up to a baseline of having decent crit and decent status. the CO vs PPP depends on playstyle and other variables and that's above my pay grade as a certified No Damage Ned.

As much as I disliked it when it came out (solely because "muh ribbens ohnoes,") new melee changes have been the highlight of the year for me personally.

[6-BristleBack-9]

seismic wave 👌

PeePeePee and hard earned SeeO 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

17 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

Context: Condition Overload was changed from 60% Bonus Damage per Status Effect that is affecting the target -> 120% Melee Damage Per Status Effect affecting the target.

Condition Overload has gone from one of my favorite mods to one of my least favorite very fast. 

In one swoop they not only nerfed the mod, but they made it almost mandatory for melees.  It's currently overshadowing Prime Pressure Point, and it is so strong that people have begun giving up Melee Damage rivens in favor of Critical Damage to pair with Blood Rush.  I feel like every build except for weird nice weapons is the exact same.  CD As Range - Riven with blood rush, weeping sounds, condition overload.  If it's not that it's either Sac Steel, CD As Range - Riven with combo mods.  I feel like the changes not only nerfed the melee class, but they also killed what little build variety already existed. 😕

Idk.  I'd have rather seen a small Condition Overload nerf like maybe 40-55% instead of 60%.  The current Melee damage version just pushes Primed Pressure Point out of too many builds and has killed build variety.

 

Maybe stop trying to use it on weapons that cannot reach at least 80-90% status chance with *at least* 3 elementals of any combination?

[schilds]

There's no build variety because there are as many stats that are multiplied together as there are mod slots. Each one on average, roughly, worth a doubling of damage.

I think this might also go some way to explaining why there are such different experiences for new players making their way through the starchart. Some find it difficult. Some hit a wall. Others breeze through. Some of that will be down to skill, knowledge and choices made. Some of it will be that random mod drops increase the variance in player experience. That variance is exacerbated by each successive, suitable, mod (that a player is lucky to find) being worth a potential doubling of damage. That's a huge difference in player output between being lucky or unlucky. _{Of course, if the game explained the importance of mods, this wouldn't be so much of a problem as new players would start hunting down the mods they need earlier.}

Edited January 29, 2020 by schilds

[Fallen77]

Il y a 16 heures, LoneWolveYoutube a dit :

Build variety, as in, there isn’t 1 build that is used for 100 weapons.  

Yes that's what I said, it never changed

[CopperBezel]

16 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

There's some truth to everything else you're saying, but that right there is a funny take.  PPP was on 99% of optimal builds before, and now that it's not mandatory -that's- what's killed build variety? 😛

This, this, a thousand times this. We will never hear the end of the PPP vs. CO fight and that is a good thing. It's Captain America: Civil War up in here. I even have an opinion myself (keep your combo up and you're close enough to one-shotting everything in normal content with PPP, so it's just faster ... until I run into that damn Nox.)

13 hours ago, schilds said:

There's no build variety because there are as many stats that are multiplied together as there are mod slots. Each one on average, roughly, worth a doubling of damage.

I think this might also go some way to explaining why there are such different experiences for new players making their way through the starchart. Some find it difficult. Some hit a wall. Others breeze through. Some of that will be down to skill, knowledge and choices made. Some of it will be that random mod drops increase the variance in player experience. That variance is exacerbated by each successive, suitable, mod (that a player is lucky to find) being worth a potential doubling of damage. That's a huge difference in player output between being lucky or unlucky. _{Of course, if the game explained the importance of mods, this wouldn't be so much of a problem as new players would start hunting down the mods they need earlier.}

It's a rocky road that isn't a true linear progression. Don't forget, though, that they don't have arbies, so they're ranking up those mods one mod at a time, one rank at a time, rationing out their endo for the stats they want, and that is a linear progression element.

But yes, anything internal to the game to help players learn how to play it would be incredibly helpful, and is, I'm going to say, unremittingly absent.

1.5-2x is a very good metric for the effect of a single mod, but it's not perfectly continuous either. Like, corrosive and viral take two mods each, and the second one is adding a 60% on top of a 190% or a 160%, but the damage type and status proc respectively are multiplying the effective damage over again in the right context, etc. 

The "problem" such as there is one is that every build system will produce a meta, and for every weapon slot there's a weapon statblock that's the most effective kind and benefits from a particular build, and it's only weird and off-meta but situationally useful weapons that get significantly different builds, and even then, mandatory mods like your one base damage mod of choice and Blood Rush never move. We have this heavy attack meta now, but that's so far removed as to be its own thing, an "off-meta situationally useful weapon" that happens to have the situational application of "causing a lot of damage" and manages to get its own meta out of it. 

Personally, I don't see how build variety is ever going to change how weapons work or play; with the exception of the heavy attack spamming thing, only attack speed, range, and the combo counter change how I use the weapon as opposed to what numbers it creates. Rather than changing mandatory mods in any direct way, I'd rather just have a lot of Amalgam mods of the Fortuna flavor, and choose between the Organ Shatter that gives me optimal crit damage, the one that prevents 30% of knockdowns, and the one that adds 10% to my ability range.

[LoneWolveYoutube]

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

This, this, a thousand times this. We will never hear the end of the PPP vs. CO fight and that is a good thing. It's Captain America: Civil War up in here. I even have an opinion myself (keep your combo up and you're close enough to one-shotting everything in normal content with PPP, so it's just faster ... until I run into that damn Nox.)

When I say one is better than the one, I’m not talking about normal content.  You can beat relics, most sorties, Star chart  without mods.  When I say better I’m referring to higher levels enemies like 120+, and when you get there CO is just infinitely better and every good build is HA spam or Weeping Wounds/blood rush CO.  If I was playing normal missions I’d run range and AOE nukes.

[Wolfdoggie]

No but if yours smells like poop it's because you're using gas damage.

[LoneWolveYoutube]

9 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

as damage.

yeah it's poop

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

I dont think I can give much advice as I've only been playing 3 or 4 months, but why dont people just use a crit melee and strip armor with a primary or secondary? Edit: or strip armor with abilities as well.

Edited January 31, 2020 by (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu

[JawNuts]

Having to choose between PPP and CO is better for build diversity imo.

Before melee 3.0 most, if not all my melee builds have both of these. Choosing only one gives us a free mod slot for more range, crit dmg, etc.

Also, in a lot of cases, PPP is better than CO. It really defends on multiple factors (weapon, status%, atk spd, etc.)

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

I dont think I can give much advice as I've only been playing 3 or 4 months, but why dont people just use a crit melee and strip armor with a primary or secondary? Edit: or strip armor with abilities as well.

Mostly because of the forced Slash Procs from some of the Stances.

[CopperBezel]

16 hours ago, LoneWolveYoutube said:

When I say one is better than the one, I’m not talking about normal content.  You can beat relics, most sorties, Star chart  without mods.  When I say better I’m referring to higher levels enemies like 120+, and when you get there CO is just infinitely better and every good build is HA spam or Weeping Wounds/blood rush CO.  If I was playing normal missions I’d run range and AOE nukes.

Level 120 is precisely the point where I lose interest and not coincidentally the point at which the game doesn't bother adding any new rewards, so that checks out. Still, up to that point there's a question between the two.