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(PS4)Maunstre

UI Critique, A Response To "Why Do We UI How We UI"

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... goddamn.

I've literally no idea what to say beyond that.
Amazing effort OP.

This'd lead to great improvement if it's taken on board, I believe.
Here's to hoping.

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5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

@(PS4)Maunstreappreciate the work you have put into this, this probably took a few hours to write..

While you focus on the Ui which is not directly connected to In-Mission-Gameplay, the feedback i posted was focussed on that part.

Ill just leave it in the Spoiler below since the Ingame Part is just as important imo:

Thanks! Three days total with all the writing, capture, paint overs, and proofing involved by the end. In document form this thread is 23 pages long, the forum aspect makes it seem a lot less intense than it was to create. The fact that it wound up taking so long is part of why it sticks only to UI.

You are definitely right on your points on gameplay. The Lotus taking up a massive swathe of the screen during the Ropalolyst fight has been a personal bugbear ever since I ran that fight a second time. You legitimately cannot see properly through the hologram when moving at speed, you may as well just have half of your television just disappear.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

I agree with listening to the community. 
 

You know what DE should do? Instead of constantly listening to their content creators, as important as they are, they should implement some kind of council made of active forumers to help DE with designing their UI, gameplay, and other stuff. 
 

A council of design... imagine that.

Ive pondered lately whether DE would ever be open to some sort of more direct feedback program, or bug/feedback bounty program. Even a hidden rating that says "hey, this user gives good feedback, lets flag them as someone who's future posts we might be more interested in".

But such things are so subjective, it would be controversial. Might be hard to put into place without being perceived as catering to a few peoples opinions.

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This is amazing. You're an absolute madlad and you've done a fantastic job.
I agreed with you on every single thing, from UI to exposing numbers, to liches, to railjack.

IN FACT, as an MR 28 player who missed out on the first two weeks of railjack, I actually LEARNT things about the avionics screen (which I've been avoiding like the plague) from your redesign.

Fantastic job, bravo!

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Fantastic thread that has almost anything I currently find bad about the new UI explained.

There is one thing however that I see almost no one mention that annoys me to no end, and that is the weapon dioramas (both market and codex).

I absolutely despise the weapons being held by a warframe, the whole thing rotating and zooming in with no ability to control it. You can't even see the weapon half the time, and if you can it's tiny or covered by various warframe bits clipping into it. Instead what it should be is the weapon alone, on a background fitting to whatever UI style you chose, as a 3d model that you can rotate and zoom as you please.

This could be extended to warframes, maybe with a toggle from the current preset dioramas but at least for the weapons this is objectively the better solution.

 

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1 hour ago, DragoonStorm1 said:

IN FACT, as an MR 28 player who missed out on the first two weeks of railjack, I actually LEARNT things about the avionics screen (which I've been avoiding like the plague) from your redesign.

Wow! Thank you very much, I am incredibly happy it helped! The Railjack Avionics UI has been a massive point of personal contention since Empyrean launched, I had to read the forum post twice to get a handle on how the heck it was supposed to work and it was a massive driver to making this thread.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Maunstre said:

Three days total

If that doesn't speak how much you love the game, I don't know what does. I thought I was in my UI Design class while reading this. Snipped and saved for my future reference.

Thank you very much.

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@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Pablo I subscribe everything this user said in the thread, if this doesn't get to you I don't know what will.

The irony is that even with labels on (should be on by default) you don't get any info in RJ. Rushed content I know but still c'mon guys...

 

@(PS4)Maunstre I feel you should be paid for all that work (for doing DE's job actually) but since that won't happen I thank you. Thanks ❤️

 

For those who haven't seen it yet, here is a video of a Warframe partner showing the woes of the UI and how a simple changes would make a world of difference:

 

 

 

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On 2020-01-29 at 7:54 AM, (PS4)Maunstre said:

how trustworthy or useful is a system that hides information from you, the veteran or new player?

Well, I never liked this whole UI from the day it was introduced May 2014(?)

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18 hours ago, (NSW)Kadet said:

Ive pondered lately whether DE would ever be open to some sort of more direct feedback program, or bug/feedback bounty program. Even a hidden rating that says "hey, this user gives good feedback, lets flag them as someone who's future posts we might be more interested in".

But such things are so subjective, it would be controversial. Might be hard to put into place without being perceived as catering to a few peoples opinions.

Quote

What is the “Design Council” in the forums?

 
 
 

The Design Council is an exclusive area of the forums that allows for voting on future features of Warframe with polls run by the Dev Team. Whether deciding the next weapon type or a new Warframe power, the Design Council has the ability to shape Warframe. Posts in the Design Council are regarded with respect and are highly valued by the team.

This feature is given to a selected 25 players a month, as well as Master and Grandmaster founders. In order to gain access to the Design Council you must be an active contributor to the forums.

i think you missed the joke 

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

i think you missed the joke 

Lol, yup, I had no idea that existed.

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43 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

we even have a discord ...

i feel saddened by this 

I actually joined the Discord, but tbh, I haven't spent much time there yet.

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Kadet said:

I actually joined the Discord, but tbh, I haven't spent much time there yet.

do you mean warframes discord or the councils ? they are separate servers...

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

do you mean warframes discord or the councils ? they are separate servers...

Warframe. I didn't know the counsel was even a thing until today.

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4 hours ago, ciTiger said:

Thanks ❤️

You're most welcome, thank you for the kind words! I sincerely hope some of these suggestions will be taken onboard!

 

4 hours ago, ciTiger said:

For those who haven't seen it yet, here is a video of a Warframe partner showing the woes of the UI and how a simple changes would make a world of difference:

Woo I hadn't seen this video! Good to see there's some shared wavelength going on! It's nice to know I wasn't alone on my thoughts of the Lich mod system (I admit my friends and I have our own unflattering names for the mods since we can't put the names to the symbols ourselves and just don't enjoy the process of Lich hunting overall).

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Maunstre said:

-snip-

I love it, but everything I want to say about it specifically has already been said.

All I have to say is, if DE implements even half of the changes you've shared with us, you should be compensated accordingly.

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

I love it, but everything I want to say about it specifically has already been said.

All I have to say is, if DE implements even half of the changes you've shared with us, you should be compensated accordingly.

Thank you!

Well... I am a freelancer! I'd certainly be happy to keep making work like this if DE might have any further use for feedback and ideas like mine.

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I almost couldn't get myself to even reply because it's so pointless. I still want to express my opinion real quick: very good points made in the initial post. The above linked stream highlight UI rant by Brozime covers some of the points as well.

You know what's going to happen? Nothing. And you know why? Because DE employees have proven they're not capable of understanding what needs to be changed or done to improve the game, even if it's "only" the game's UI. Yes, they might implement some of the player proposed changes, yes they might "improve" flawed exisiting mechanics, but all that doesn't cover the fact that DE at one point thought these are good designs, ideas or mechanics.

It's as if you're giving a man one fish (or 10 or 100 doesn't matter) and expect him to be able to self-sustain for the rest of his life. Spolier: he won't be able to self-sustain until he learns how to fish! 

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)OdinAsteroid said:

You know what's going to happen? Nothing. And you know why? Because DE employees have proven they're not capable of understanding what needs to be changed or done to improve the game, even if it's "only" the game's UI. Yes, they might implement some of the player proposed changes, yes they might "improve" flawed exisiting mechanics, but all that doesn't cover the fact that DE at one point thought these are good designs, ideas or mechanics.

It's as if you're giving a man one fish (or 10 or 100 doesn't matter) and expect him to be able to self-sustain for the rest of his life. Spolier: he won't be able to self-sustain until he learns how to fish! 

As much as this is a very real possibility, I want to be hopeful. While making this thread I had in mind the many times the community has been ignored in similar circumstances, in some cases for years for things like Vacuum for pets, or still ignored for things like non-scaling excavators, and I seriously considered whether the effort I was putting forth (three days of work, as mentioned above) was actually worth it. However, even with these thoughts in mind I did it anyways, because I want to think that DE might change. For all I know, like the problems with getting Vacuum for pets implemented, I'm preaching to a choir that agrees but can do nothing because there is someone above them who says "no" for reasons unknown and opposed to a streamlined player experience. There's also the possibility that this isn't the case, that no one agrees and I was just given lip service by a member of the dev team to make me feel better for the effort I put into this thread. I don't know, but want to assume the best. I want to assume that DE just needs a nudge in a different direction.

To be extremely frank I think DE needs to change at this point - they don't have a choice, even if they think they do. If they don't, I think rough times are ahead for them, because as I mentioned in the OP, their players are not stupid. I am not stupid. My friends who play this game with me and who are the biggest reason I got invested are not stupid. When we group up together our conversations have changed from the things we enjoy about the game to the things that desperately need fixing but are being ignored. Logging in to see these same problems persist for months, years on end has affected our enjoyment, coming to an immense head with the Old Blood and the evidently rushed and not-ready-at-all launch of Empyrean. Railjack wasn't ready when we last saw it on Devstream before its launch on PC, and I wasn't excited when I saw the redtext pop up for console. Personally, I find it hard to log in just for daily tribute, because it is difficult to engage with something that is being twisted to make the process of having fun a whole lot more difficult than it needs to be.

The player metrics that have been being shared in the community of late paint a picture that clearly suggests that what DE is doing is not working, and the player drop-off rate suggests that players new and old aren't afraid to just let the game go at this stage. The veneer of "the little game that could" only lasts for so long. Warframe is a multi-million-dollar machine and DE is a studio of over 300 people last I heard. DE doesn't exist in a bubble, and their players don't exist in a bubble, either. Warframe may be the only GaaS title I play, but that doesn't mean I don't keep my ear to the ground on what is happening elsewhere in the industry, especially in regards to GaaS. I keep a comparison going in my head of what these other companies are doing that has tanked their products that DE keeps edging towards. I love Warframe, but I'll dump it if I must. Sure, I've invested time and money into it, but trust and goodwill is finite. Bethesda learned that the hard way in 2018 with F76, they lost everything they had built up for years in less than 4 months, and they aren't the only ones. TC's GR Breakpoint forced Ubisoft to remap their earnings for an entire year and cancel projects due to how badly it was received. Players. Aren't. Stupid. They can tolerate garbage for a surprisingly long time, yes, but every camel has a limit, and DE needs to take better care of its herd. Camels talk amongst each other, after all.

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Thanks for making this. I was actually in the process of making a post similar to this (albeit, on Twitter), but you beat me to it. I agree with most of the points that you brought up here, so I won't repeat them in here.

I think that Pablo (and anyone else in the UI team) should watch this video from Jordan Lawrence, called "The UX Infinity Gems [—] 6 Ways to Create Great UX." (I realize that the preview looks bad, but I encourage you to listen through all of it before making assumptions.) Because here, we are basically speaking about the User Experience (UX) of this, not so much the UI (and UX (which can be viewed as the "function") needs to go hand-in-hand with UI ("form"). In the video, Jordan talks about UX in terms of applications for the health industry. Now, obviously, Warframe is not a health app, but the commonality of professional health apps and Warframe is that they are very data driven, so I believe that the lessons learned in this video can pretty much apply in here. Some of the things are repeats of what you said, but it doesn't hurt to have more examples.

There's also accessibility issues (both in the UI and in gameplay), but that's a whole other topic in and of itself...

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Maunstre:

 I love Warframe, but I'll dump it if I must. Sure, I've invested time and money into it, but trust and goodwill is finite. (...) Players. Aren't. Stupid. They can tolerate garbage for a surprisingly long time, yes, but every camel has a limit, and DE needs to take better care of its herd. Camels talk amongst each other, after all.

Appreciate your detailed reply and I very much appreciate your opening post and the effort you put into it. I agree with everything you've said in your reply to my post, and the lines I quoted could've come directly from my heart. You just seem to handle the whole thing much more optimistic than I am which is a good thing and I apologize for my negativity.

I'm actually both very happy and unhappy at the same time hearing that player let go of the game. Unhappy because I still got some hope left and because there are still things I enjoy about Warframe. But happy at the same time because there need to be consequences.

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Maunstre:

My friends who play this game with me and who are the biggest reason I got invested are not stupid. When we group up together our conversations have changed from the things we enjoy about the game to the things that desperately need fixing but are being ignored.

I know this is getting a little OffTopic, but this particular line took my attention.

Its pretty much the same with my Clanmates.

I remember the time 2 years ago when people would log in each afternoon to do Raids together and then do other things in the game together.

There have been 20-30 people online each evening playing Warframe together.

 

Raids might have been buggy, and i dont even want to talk about Raids but simply my experience.

After they got removed we continued to play the game.

We tried to make our own fun.

We did Sorties together with Random Loadouts to keep them interesting.

We did many different things while talking to each other having fun.

 

The thing is though, the fact that we were playing together talking to each other was the thing that kept us playing Warframe.

But just like you say, negativity about Warframe grew, and we played it less and less.

 

Now, we still meet frequently on our Warframe TS.

But what do we do there?

We play AoE2 together, Northgard, people playing Destiny or Counter Strike or all kinds of games.

We simply stopped playing Warframe together the way we did because these years of complaining without desired changes have been exhausting to most i guess.

 

You cannot make up your own fun forever.

 

Again, this is just my experience and its not about Raids or Destiny or other keywords that popped up in my reply.

Its simply about how it seems we all got tired of Warframe and moved on to other things. (we still play a round of Railjack together maybe once a week or so or do something else, but compared to how it has been before this isnt a lot)

 

Just like you, i dont even log in for my Daily Rewards anymore when i dont want to play the game.

On the one side, i simply dont care about the Rewards anymore, because why should i when i dont play the game?

And even though i dont know if it has in impact, i also dont feel like advertising the game with my playtime/log in numbers when i dont even play it.

 

I would love to see this change again.

But it also feels like most of us are ok now with simply playing something else (thats what everyone suggest in these forums whenever someone complains about Warframe anyway, but is it really good for Warframe if we all just play something else and dont care anymore, when we are even to tired to complain?)

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