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Keybindings are weird


VentiGlondi
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Here's a small list of weird but very inconvenient anomalies related to keybindings in this game.

  • The only way to "manually" equip melee is by holding "Swap weapon" key. The game provides you with an alternate keybinding for "swap gun", but no "swap to melee". This actually used to be an option, but it was removed when Steve decided to remove manual weapon swap. It never came back.
  • There's an option to make "Fire" button swing melee. However if you keep it disabled and manually equip melee, "Fire" does absolutely nothing. Not even switch back to your gun.
  • There's no way to rebind blocking as it's directly linked to aiming your gun. If you try to e.g. bind "heavy attack" to RMB the game will unbind "aim gun".
  • Binding "Sprint/roll" is mandatory, even if you have "sprint" and "roll" bound to something already. This isn't as big of a deal as the other ones but it's odd. I basically had to bind a function I never use to something on my numpad.

On a side note, along with "swap to melee" it would be really nice to have an option for "Swap to primary" and "Swap to secondary" as well. I know that having all of this under one universal button reduces the amount of necessary keybindings, but personally I'd rather have more keybindings than having to keep a mental note which gun I'm going to swap to, if I stow my melee weapon.

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Don't forget the "use cipher" hotkey during hacking, which seems to be hardcoded to the "y" key with no way to bind it to something else.

I have chat bound to this key, and if I'm not solo, it's a toss-up whether pressing it during a hack will use a cipher, or open the chat window.

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More freedom in our control configuration, yes please.

Maybe have an "advanced config" option, with a big "yes I know what I'm doing" confirmation prompt,
which then lets us leave functions unbound / assign multiple functions to the same button,
change functions for e.g. using Ciphers, or inputs increasing the quantity of something by 1, stuff like that.

Not least, as someone who uses a mouse + controller combo (it's great shut up lol),
it would be pretty nifty if I didn't have to finagle something together using outside programs like XPadder,
which ended up with silly conflicts like a second, useless Melee binding being on the same controller button where I put Escape,
so that a lot of the time, if I open the menu in a mission, after closing it again (via the Back button on my mouse)
I suddenly perform a Melee Attack (reasonable enough I guess) ... followed by a completely unprovoked Heavy Attack (lol wut).

An option to turn off the auto-switch of button prompts would also be welcome (like we had before the "controller support upgrade" thing),
it can get a bit near-epileptic to have those switch back and forth wildly in certain situations.

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

The only way to "manually" equip melee is by holding "Swap weapon" key

You know what's fun? If you have Swap Weapon bound to Mouse Wheel Scroll
(because, why not, that's what plenty shooters use to switch weapons), then ... yeah, good luck "holding" that 😛

Edited by NinjaZeku
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1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

There's an option to make "Fire" button swing melee. However if you keep it disabled and manually equip melee, "Fire" does absolutely nothing. Not even switch back to your gun.

What would  you expect the Fire button to do if you've manually equipped your melee weapon? People requested a state where it was impossible to switch back to your gun unless you manually held the Swap Weapon key. That's the intended behaviour for which the dedicated melee mode was introduced.

 

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

There's no way to rebind blocking as it's directly linked to aiming your gun. If you try to e.g. bind "heavy attack" to RMB the game will unbind "aim gun".

That's not an issue of keybinding but an issue of shoddy programming. Near as I can tell, "blocking" is not a separate action of its own, but literally an extension of the Aim system, the same as Glide and Latch. They can't be bound to separate buttons because they're all triggered by invoking the Aim system and having it react differently based on context. I'm fully in favour of reimplementing Block, Glide and Latch as separate actions independent of the Aim system at all. In my ideal world, I would glide by holding my Jump key, latch by holding either my Slide or my Dodge keys while near a wall (including holding them BEFORE I move close to a wall) and I would block automatically by facing my enemy and taking no offensive actions.

Again, the issue with auto-block is the same. There's no mechanical reason why blocking should trigger a glide, override movement or attack animations and be itself not interruptible. In an ideal world where blocking were a separate action, it would trigger ONLY if you're not attacking, it would be interrupted IMMEDIATELY the moment you start attacking and it would affect your movement in no way whatsoever. No forced glide, no interrupting heavy attack charging AND the ability to block without having to pull my melee weapon out.

But again - all of these are issues with the implementation of the game's Aim system, not of the game's keybind system.

 

8 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Maybe have an "advanced config" option, with a big "yes I know what I'm doing" confirmation prompt,
which then lets us leave functions unbound / assign multiple functions to the same button,
change functions for e.g. using Ciphers, or inputs increasing the quantity of something by 1, stuff like that.

My ideal system would:

  • Allow binding an infinite number of buttons to the same action.
  • Allow binding an infinite number of actions to the same button. First available action in the list would always be executed over all other actions.
  • Allow binding an action to button press, to button release, to button hold.
  • Allow binding an action to a an arbitrary combination of keys - an infinite number of any keys available on the keyboard.
  • Get rid of all combo buttons like Sprint/Roll. We can create those ourselves under the new system.

While this sounds fairly complex trying to describe it, it's actually fairly simple to actually use. The old MAME software used let me do pretty much this, though the UI for it was finicky. This is how I ended up with keybinds for Marvel vs. Capcom where, for instance, my Heavy Punch key was bound to E, 3, R, L and Z. MAME wasn't great about detecting multi-button holds (and my keyboard often locked up), so I had a number of "combo keys" bound for myself. E was the actual Heavy Punch, 3 was HP + HK for swapping characters, R was LP + HP for "punch supers," L was LP + MP + HP for push blocks and Z was HP + MK for a few weird directional moves like Wolverine's Drill Claw. I had something like 15 keybinds for a 6-button game, and MAME allowed me to do that. I see no reason why Warframe shouldn't ascribe to at least this much.

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1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

What would  you expect the Fire button to do if you've manually equipped your melee weapon? People requested a state where it was impossible to switch back to your gun unless you manually held the Swap Weapon key. That's the intended behaviour for which the dedicated melee mode was introduced.

Swinging your melee weapon would make more sense than doing literally nothing honestly, since that's the "fire" action of a melee weapon.

Edited by VentiGlondi
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5 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Swinging your melee weapon would make more sense than doing literally nothing honestly, since that's the "fire" action of a melee weapon.

But you've deliberately disabled the "use fire button to swing melee weapon." If the fire button swings your melee weapon with and without that option, what would the option DO, then?

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41 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

But you've deliberately disabled the "use fire button to swing melee weapon." If the fire button swings your melee weapon with and without that option, what would the option DO, then?

What?

It makes it so that you can use "fire" to swing melee while you're in quick melee mode, instead of swapping back to your gun and shooting.

What's the point of having no action bound to LMB when you have melee in your hands? Does anyone actually use that option specifically to unbind LMB?

 

Also blocking used to be a separate action from the very beginning of melee. They removed it when Steve came up with the whole quick-melee-with-combos thing.

 

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10 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

What? It makes it so that you can use "fire" to swing melee while you're in quick melee mode, instead of swapping back to your gun and shooting. What's the point of having no action bound to LMB when you have melee in your hands? Does anyone actually use that option specifically to unbind LMB?

Yes, turning that option makes your character swing your melee weapon with the fire button when in exclusive melee mode when turned on. If that option also makes your character swing your melee weapon with the fire button when the option is turned OFF, then what is the point of having it as an option? You're effectively arguing for the removal of that option. As long as you have an option to toggle and play the game your way, what do you care if an option exists to play it differently? Even if you don't see a point, what does it bother you that it's there? It's a legacy thing, sure, but does it hurt to leave it? Look at how many people got upset when Experimental Controls for Archwings got taken out, even though they were entirely superfluous?

 

10 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

Also blocking used to be a separate action from the very beginning of melee. They removed it when Steve came up with the whole quick-melee-with-combos thing.

It was not. Even before Melee 2.9, there was no such thing as "blocking." There was "Aiming" with your melee weapon equipped. It didn't zoom in your view because melee weapons were given 0 zoom, but the same button still controlled Glide and Latch and attempting to block in the air still triggered a Glide. The only difference was that it didn't pull out your gun, but the behaviour was the same regardless.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

It was not. Even before Melee 2.9, there was no such thing as "blocking." There was "Aiming" with your melee weapon equipped. It didn't zoom in your view because melee weapons were given 0 zoom, but the same button still controlled Glide and Latch and attempting to block in the air still triggered a Glide. The only difference was that it didn't pull out your gun, but the behaviour was the same regardless.

That's a weird semantic argument you're trying to pull here.

You pressed the button, your Melee weapon started to block.
I'd call that Blocking any day (and so did DE, it was literally called "Melee Block").

Further functions like Aimglide etc being also triggered by Blocking, that ... doesn't make it not Blocking 😛

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20 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

That's a weird semantic argument you're trying to pull here.

You pressed the button, your Melee weapon started to block.
I'd call that Blocking any day (and so did DE, it was literally called "Melee Block").

Further functions like Aimglide etc being also triggered by Blocking, that ... doesn't make it not Blocking 😛

It's not so much semantics as programming implementation. You didn't trigger a block. You triggered a gunless aim which in turn triggered a block. That worked OK in the old Melee 2.0 system where you had to go into a dedicated melee state to block and could only block on demand. When they introduced autoblock in Melee 2.9, however, is where problems started. Because the codebase HAS to call for an Aim if it wants you to block, it ended up forcing you into an aimglide if autoblock triggered in the air. Also, aim seems to have a fairly high priority in Warframe's animation sequencer. This didn't matter in Melee 2.0 where it was a manual action. In melee 2.9, however, autoblock could took precedence over attack animations. It's why it could pull you out of your combo or interrupt your charge attack.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because a "Block" key requires more than just adding a new keybind. It requires pretty significant codebase changes to reimplement blocking as a separate action from aiming. My reasoning was that if you're going through the trouble of separating block from aim, that might be a good time to also separate glide and latch. I don't think anyone would complain about the ability to glide and latch without aiming, as long as the choice to glide and latch WHILE aiming remained an option. Personally, I see this implemented as a series of toggles to the effect of "Trigger Glide when Aim button is pressed," "Trigger block when Aim button is pressed," "Trigger Latch when Aim button is pressed" somewhere in controls.

Admittedly, I was more terse than necessary for which I do apologise. It's just I want to point out the core of the issue with blocking and why DE need to invest some more coding time into fixing it.

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15 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If that option also makes your character swing your melee weapon with the fire button when the option is turned OFF, then what is the point of having it as an option?

Please pay more attention to my posts if you want to discuss.

On 2020-01-30 at 12:05 AM, VentiGlondi said:

It makes it so that you can use "fire" to swing melee while you're in quick melee mode

15 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yes, turning that option makes your character swing your melee weapon with the fire button when in exclusive melee mode when turned on.

The real question is, if you're going to ignore that quick melee exist, what is even the purpose of this option existing to begin with? Why do you want your LMB to have no function bound to it. It's literally the most intuitive button for "attack"

15 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Even before Melee 2.9, there was no such thing as "blocking." There was "Aiming" with your melee weapon equipped.

Melee 1.0 didn't even allow you to equip your melee weapon to begin with. Also blocking used stamina as a resource and wasn't very effective.

Edited by VentiGlondi
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15 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Even if you don't see a point, what does it bother you that it's there? It's a legacy thing, sure, but does it hurt to leave it?

Yes it does actually hurt to leave it.

Look at it this way:

If I use quick melee, I would also like to have access to quick gun. The option makes it that I can select whether I want LMB in QUICK MELEE MODE to be "quick gun" or "keep swinging melee". If I manually equip melee, it means I'm planning on focusing on melee exclusively and I'm not planning on using quick gun. So one would think "fire" is now "swing weapon. But if I decided that I want to keep "quick gun" under "fire" now my LMB is now completely functionless.

Why does it bother you that I want LMB to swing my flipping melee weapon when I have it equipped?

Here, I made an image so that you can't miss it again

Spoiler

2v2HX8g.png

Quote

You're effectively arguing for the removal of that option.

No I'm not, you're just being dense.

Edited by VentiGlondi
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12 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

Please pay more attention to my posts if you want to discuss.

Would it kill you to have a modicum of decorum? Yes, I clearly did not know how that option worked, but that's why I phrased my posts as questions. If you can tell I'm misunderstanding, why not actually correct me and explain, instead of launching into ad hominem? I would have agreed with you, had you explained. No, I didn't know that that option ALSO made you swing your melee weapon with the Fire button in Quick Melee mode - either I forgot or I never tried it. That's on me, and for that I apologise. Knowing that now, I agree - restricting the "Melee With Fire Weapon Input" to just Quick Melee while letting players always swing their melee weapon with Fire Weapon Input makes sense. If you'd just taken the time to explain to me that I was working off of wrong information, we could have been here three posts ago.

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52 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

I did and you ignored it.

If you're referring to the "quick melee mode" mention you quoted, I didn't understand you were correcting me on what the option does. I thought that's what you were asking for the option TO do, rather than explaining what it actually does. Again - I wasn't able to understand what you were trying to achieve with the change until just today.

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