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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

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Great changes - give us more control over weapons (which ones we want and what we do about damage).

The murmur farm remains disconnected from the overall core play of warframe, but frankly I can live with that now, knowing that I'm farming for an objective I chose.

Great changes, can't wait for the update on PS4 🙂

Thanks DE

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Changes are much better than expected. A lot of issues remains, such as teaming up outside of pub being nigh impossible, lich spawning relying on the fickle rage bar even when you know your requiems, thrall farming being incredibly tedious and disjointed from other activities, but it's a good start nevertheless.

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10 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

This is delightful, so it seems now I can feed my higher bonus% kuva weapon with lower bonus% , then it increased?
how about the element type? If I have kuva weapon toxin 60% then infused with electric 25%, will it be electric 60%? 

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Well then it seems ill never actually try to kill my lich. The grind for Req relics is just not fun and if I need those to kill a lich then my lich will never die.

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God, double the ephemera rate again? Boosting wep %?

We're just making all the changes for the cry babies I see 

 

This is why vets have nothing to do because everything is so damn easy

Edited by (XB1)Veytok

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11 hours ago, Arkennstar said:

I think these are all very good steps in the right direction.

Although despite the fact that this might be an unpopular opinion, I rather enjoyed the fact that the lich could kick your ass if you got the sequence or mod wrong. All that needed to be done was remove the death from it. Please leave the "back break and toss aside" move. As was rightly stated in the devstream that announced the lich system, we tenno could use some ass kicking once in a while. We're too powerful and undefeated for our own good. Just dying to it was just a step too far and needs to be removed.

THIS, PLEASE THIS!. Only the dying part needs addressing, the ass-whooping was, dare i say it, necessary. A little humbling does good to all-powerful-space-ninja-pirates-battlegods. It doesn't even have to do damage, (or if it's going to, make it like a 50% percentual of actual health, that way it won't kill you, but even if you're an 8000+ HP Inaros you're still getting some whooping xD.

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Changes seem like good progress:

I wonder if rerolling the Larvaling for the weapon you want is going to be annoying. I guess you can just play normally until the thrall you want shows up.
Any idea how this works when multiple players want that weapon on a lich? Is it still going to be a race?

Can you remove the need to 5 forma everything for mastery? Cause these weapon don't need 5 forma and I'm not willing to part with the forma for mastery. So it kind of makes the weapons not worth collecting.

I'm glad Steve swallowed his urge to arbitrarily kill players. It sounds like the liches still only die the one time, missing the point of the Lich theme and making the gameplay mismatch with their voice lines.

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18 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

I think it would be a lot more interesting if once you down the larvling, it turns into the Lich you will get

I like this idea but I doubt it will pass concept given "the design goals of the system." 

Now maybe if they could lock this predictive precognition of the lich behind an orbiter segment, progression milestone, mcguffin, or special gear wheel scanner, the acquisition path of which is long, random, rare, grindy, and is based in non lich content, then I could see it in game. 

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2 minutes ago, Kaadu said:

Changes seem like good progress:

I wonder if rerolling the Larvaling for the weapon you want is going to be annoying. I guess you can just play normally until the thrall you want shows up.
Any idea how this works when multiple players want that weapon on a lich? Is it still going to be a race?

Can you remove the need to 5 forma everything for mastery? Cause these weapon don't need 5 forma and I'm not willing to part with the forma for mastery. So it kind of makes the weapons not worth collecting.

I'm glad Steve swallowed his urge to arbitrarily kill players. It sounds like the liches still only die the one time, missing the point of the Lich theme and making the gameplay mismatch with their voice lines.

Remove the forma? Yea sure #*!% it why don't we just get the full mastery and the wep fully leveled while we're at it?
/s

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I don't see any mentions nor words about the whole murmur progress farm, which is one of the "core" element you mentioned in the thread.

One of the many reasons people are getting burnt out since they have to waste 1 and half / 2'ish hours to kill the lich.

Enlighten us on how you gonna improve that experience since it was mentioned in last Dev-s that there would be a more generous murmur farm experience.

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30 minutes ago, (XB1)Veytok said:

God, double the ephemera rate again? Boosting wep %?

We're just making all the changes for the cry babies I see 

 

This is why vets have nothing to do because everything is so damn easy

On the contrary, I'm a vet and I think the ephemera boost (and other changes) is great, because I can't be arsed to spawn a lich knowing I'll get a weapon I won't want, a lower bonus % roll that's useless with the current iteration of Valence transfer, and no ephemera.

All these changes are great. Does this make me less of a vet and more of a cry baby by your standard?

Edited by RS219

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Cool and needed changes.

I think the final phase of the lich "hunt" should be locating their "base of operations" and actually going on a specific mission (assasination) on the located node instead of hoping for lich to spawn after we learn all the murmurs.

The murmurs could be tweaked a bit also by making the murmur progress much higher on the "lucky guess" and if we happen to guess all 3 murmurs we just learn the base location but the lich runs away if it spawned in random lich ocupated mission ( have to do the assasination mission to actually kill the lich ).

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Kyllain
Wording correction

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If the Kuva Weapons are only supposed to vary in elemental damage%, then why are the IPS stats not fixed? I have several examples between weapons where the damage is inconsistent. Can we please have this acknowledged / addressed / fixed? I see no mention of this anywhere else.

I won't touch that Valence Transfer unless I know I'm getting the optimal version in all stats. Thank you very much.

 

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10 часов назад, DeLawrence сказал:

Have Kuva Lich death squads of 5-10 thralls spawn in normal missions/activities/fissures etc.

How do I give more than 1 upvote? DE need to to see that.

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what im seeing is people are soft and don't like the challenge of being wrong, or the great feeling of nailing the order in one go. Since it doesn't kill you, you can just try to force the combination unless "laughing and leaving" resets its anger bar. Honestly everything else was fine but this part I don't like at all 

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I'm still expecting the requiem "mods" to be either permanent or have a 1-3h wait time until they're fully recharged...

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11 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Perfect series of changes, hope it gets in without any random exceptions

They will, DE always add " exceptions"

6 hours ago, gluih said:

This looks like it just removes, what was really annoying to a lot of players. You don't have to grind as much anymore. You don't get killed anymore.

There is nothing added to make the liches actually feel powerful. The fights won't be any different. The mod RNG still comes after the fight and while it's not as frustrating as before, it would make more sense to have the check before you can deal damage.
The lich creation also isn't any different and you still go to cassini. The difference is just, that now you run it over and over until you find a new weapon or the upgrade you are looking for.

Farming liches is still disconnected from the rest of the game.

This, the whole system was rushed and poorly executed, who ever changed the system to be this "cop-out" version of the Nemesis system from SoW, needs to go back to the drawing board. The system that was teased and shown in meny Devstreams and Trailers. Was an actual Nemesis, not something the Grinner just send out if you've killed some dude with a pocket full of Kuva.

I still recall the Kuva guys being a SINGLE person, that hunted you for a real long time, made ships of his own, had armies of his own. Was un-killable over and over until you found the right way to do it, Via MISSIONS and not just killing his bad guys in a "badass-way". 

The guy even said in the Demo "When will you learn, that I am Immoral, just like you" but now it seems "Oh I can come back from being shot to death a few times, but guess the wrong combo to my safe in my chest and you die boi" (or in this case, laugh at you and vanish into the never) 

The changes add NOTHING to the system, just a "pick what weapon to farm thats locked behind a min-boss that you have to GRIND in order to even get the thing you need to kill the boss, on TOP of doing a guessing game of what needle hurts him the most."

Really disappointing. 

(Actual ideas below, made by PLAYERS)

11 hours ago, Soulless_Spartan said:

What could be cool is if we "killed" them instead of them shrugging it off. It'd be a good way to have their lines about dying repeatedly make more sense.

11 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This is a good change, but I think just to really make it thematically fitting, the Lich should actually die, THEN laugh at you and disappear. The whole concept along with a lot of their dialogue implies they've got a resurrection thing going on, and making them actually die but still be immortal through resurrection would work a lot better. Even as a small change. Either way I'm glad the cheesy non-challenge of a failure death is gone.

11 hours ago, xRufus7x said:

These changes are good and all but this still leaves liches as a content island. Thralls should have a chance to spawn in any mission on a controlled planet while the lich nodes give specialized bonuses. Spy and mobile defense giving extra murmurs for instance or exterminate and sabotage increasing the liche's anger.

Add the old system back where Kuva Liches where NOT just random mobs you have to kill, but ONE guy that hants you for a real long time (and can drop "kuva weapons" if people really care about that)

Edited by Circle_of_Psi

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8 hours ago, Volrind said:

I'm probably one of very rare people who will miss the spine wrecking lich animation. I actually find it entertaining to witness.

You're not alone I liked the get it wrong you die animation no pain no gain, it's funny as when in squad and you see a mate get shafted I say to them over discord, nope wrong one. 😛 

 

 

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First of all, thanks for this!. I love Railjack, the concept, even with it's flaws and there's still work to be done... but i liked the kuva lich concept and most of the system too, and thought it might be forgotten. Glad to see that's not the case! 😄

So here's my two cents on things that maybe could be improved/touched upon. (plz forgive any strangeness, my english is a bit rusty. Also, no TLDR :3 )

I won't mention lich crews or having them appear more/for longer times for obvious reasons.
 

1) The "Liches don't kill you when failed requiem". The part where they don't kill you sounds awesome, my twice-umbral-forma Valkitty prime felt quite offended with all her tankiness being outright ignored xD That being said, and as Arkennstar said, i'd like for the animation to still play. The "You're not the only powerfull being here, tenno!" concept was amazing, it was just the part where they oneshoted you that was, well, a bit too much. Still, i'd have it do some damage, if it's gonna play that brutal animation xD. Id say it should do 50% of your warframes remaining health, this would make everyone equally ass-kicked, while not punishing the squishier frames (too much) (if your lich caught you with one of the squishys)

 

2) The Trading. It's slave trading at best, and evil dark betrayal at worst. Still, the idea in itself isn't bad, so what if we use the lich trading as a pseudo lich-be-gone? Here's how it could work: Let's say Benny has a lich, and he doesn't really want to farm it. He knows it has a kuva seer that is worst than the one he has, and has en ephemera. So he offers it THEN, or at any moment before killing/converting it. Fluffwise, Benny would be offering a kill-contract to any other tenno that would want to take on this lich. The trading is done, lich is now the buyers problem (since he must first with this assasin before returning to benny (which he won't be able to, but liches don't know that) and Benny is free.

     Also, when trading a lich, it goes with whatever progress it had in known requiems and murmur farm.

     Picture this. What if Frank, who was farming his lich, and knows 2 requiems for it and is about 40% done with the third relic murmur farm, let's say, he needs some plat urgently, and he know's his lich could atract the amount he needs. So he offers it then. Casually, it has the same kuva seer, let's say a measly 2% worse on the elemental, and has an ephemera too (maybe even the same). So now we have 2 "identical" liches being "offered", but one is far more advanced in the known requiems field, wich would make it a lot more atractive to someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't feel like farming all the requiems. This would force Benny to make a better offer, hence (maybe) somewhat regulating the lich prices. Independent of that, transferring not only the lich per se but the progress would cut a lot of the farming and RNG for one of the parties involved, which should be a massive improvement.

3) Requiem Relic and murmur Farming. While i personally don't have an issue with this, many people does, and yes, RNG can be a bit of an... i'll just self censor. So, maaaaybe it would be good to up the chance for requiem relic (RR from now on) drops both on normal kuva missions and thralls, and/or have more ways of obtaining them. Let's say, doing missions in kuva fortress could have a... idk, 20% chance of rewarding you a relic at the end of mission, and additionally, achieving certain extra objectives within missions would have extra chances for a relic (stuff like, for each spy vault done, you have a 50% chance of an additional relic (if you're lucky, those are 4 relics in a single mission), or for each 5 rounds the defence objective takes no dmg, you get a RR, stuff like that). Syndicates could sell relic packs for standing, or take kuva for a specific relic (or there could be a specific vendor for this).

      As an additional idea to the "we're not the bad guys" idea in the trading part... killing the thralls. Right now you "kill them", they go down and become inmortal, then mercy-kill them, and we get some murmurs plus a chance at a relic. So... what if, we keep this but add a variant: When you first "kill them", they go down, and have a "second life", which will be inmune to warframe powers but vulnerable to warframe weapons (to a degree, the idea would be they become inmortal for a second (as to avoid an accidental killing by you being triggerhappy on the rest of the room or still in the middle of a melee combo)). While in this state, you can mercy-kill them (and get the murmurs and chance of a relic just like now) BUT, you have a chance to spare them. If you don't kill them in let's say... 3-5 seconds, they'll rise up, and run away. They will grant no murmur but will drop a guaranteed relic. (variant to the same idea, mercy-killing them gives more murmur than now but no relic, and sparing them gives no murmur and guaranteed relic, so one can "tune" the farm to what he/she needs).

   Maybe another way to getting relics could be at the lich fight propper. Let's say you fail the parazon, the lich kick-pushes you while laughing. It will then not immediatly de-spawn, but summon a portal (or maybe channels a teleportation or whatever). Thing is, while that happens, the player will have a very short window (1,5 seconds, no more than 2 seconds) to melee-strike the lich. If he does, the portal closes and the lich stays. You fight it's second life bar. THIS TIME, when it falls and you parazon it (and obviously fail), the lich will drop a guaranteed relic, and try to open the portal again (after kicking you). You will again have the same short time window to melee strike it again, and if succesful, you fight again (the liches "last" life bar). Upon defeating it, he will again drop a guaranteed relic, and "die" (which will magically teleport it away, so no more relics can be farmed). Of course, since you don't have the requiems, your lich comes back to life, you don't get your stuff back (yet) and still haunts you and steals your stuff. IF you managed to attack it before it goes away, you'd be getting 2 guaranteed relics per lich fight. (or something like that)

 

4) Personalities. I love the ones we have, but it would be nice to get some variations, even if they are carbon copies of each other but sex-reversed (so goofy female and super smart male (can we have a "Tyl regor" lich? 😄 ), it would be a nice touch.

5) The fight per se (and this might be an unpopular one). Liches have resistances and weaknesses. I've never tooled my builds to hunt the lich, wich has given me varied results. Sometimes i have just the weapon with the right elements. Shield goes puff on a few shots, life goes puff in a bit more or less shots, then i parazon. If i had it right it's rinse and repeat, if i had it wrong it kills me and goes away. Boring.

   But sometimes i had things it resisted. It soaked A LOT of damage. And it's jumping around and throwing powers at me making me miss several of my shots, making it even more tanky than it really is due to agility. I jump into melee, expecting a quick kill, i get 3-4 quick hits that do more damage, but then the lich grabed me, gave me a few hits and threw me away, taking most of my health bar (mind you, i run a tank-valkyr build). I Heavy-melee the lich, (or anyrandom grineer, as i always run lifestrike in my melees), i heal, and jump again into melee. "This time i'm heavy meleeing it" i think. It takes more damage, but i manage no more than 2 hits in when it grabs me again, and throws me, wounding me seriously. I get up again, get healed by heavy meleeing something all the way being very wary and evasive of the liches shooting and/or ranged powers, because if it hits me more than a bit i'm dead, if the lich is my only target i only go in for the heal. Simply attacking it isn't cutting it. I need to adapt, evolve, think. Do some shooting here, jump there, land just beside it, get a few melee strikes, roll away before he grabs me. I had to learn its tells. learn it's attacks, and then use my skill, MY ACTUAL SKILL to get damage in it. In the end, i have the wrong requiem and it one-shots me, but even then... what a fight. WHAT A FIGHT. THAT is what this game is all about. Not farming, Not "pressing 4 and winning"... awesome combat. That's why we're here. At least why i'm here. And the actual lich system provided that, or does sometimes.

    Now i actually see my liches weaknesses, to avoid them. I want that fight. I want to feel challenged not by "oh i have the wrong build" but by actuall gun-sword-skill. I guess what i'm trying to say is... remove their weaknesses (not the quirky ones like "hates childs" xD). Damage feels good, it's punishing but you can pick up. It's not an instant grab, you have a short window to tell when it's coming, that's fine. What's not fine is one casually killing them. Remove their weaknesses. Make them status-inmune (but not power inmune, people should still have a fighting chance if they bring frames with slows, stuns, that kinda things). The buggy animation grabs should be fixed (as a part of skill-evading their grabs, but this is a detail since the tell is still there) but seriously it's secondary to making them an actual menace. Please don't let them spawn as "easy to kill". Go hard or go home.

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I'm still pretty sour over the 5 forma requirement for every weapon.

Hell, half of them can't even USE the capacity gained from the last 1-2 as they can fit the highest possible drain mods without them.

It's just an artificial time and resource sink that adds no value to the game.

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Good steps forward, but if Kuva Liches are still a completely isolated island, then they're not a Nemesis System - they're a repeatable quest with no new content.

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12 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

I have a quick suggestion that I think could be implemented until next week. Have Kuva Lich death squads of 5-10 thralls spawn in normal missions/activities/fissures etc.

As long as you opted in to have a Lich, you should expect it to be annoying you, either by itself or by sending its minions after you. There's no point in "farming" Liches...they should be integrated into the game, as the custom enemy you envisioned.

Oh my God please, THIS, do THIS!

The idea of the Lich and/or a thrall kill squad spawning in any regular mission where assasins can spawn is AMAZING.

With all the gates to "opt in" to the creation of a Kuva Lich, the system should indeed be made into something that is showing up everywhere you go. So here are my thoughts to further add to this EXCELLENT kill squad suggestion.

The number and level of thralls spawned as a kill squad could be directly linked to the level of the Lich (mirroring the Lich's "influence" and amassed "power" over the solar system), and their probability of spawning should increase based on the Lich's rage system. Meaning, if your Lich owns 5 planets, of course he will have access to more, and higher level minions, compared to when he only owned one. And if he is absolutely pissed at you, you should expect him sending said minions every chance he gets to off you. This will also make murmur farm much more integrated with the rest of the game. Especially if said kill squads can literally spawn everywhere (with the exception of say Sanctuary and story quests). Imagine running a bounty on the Plains and a kill squad spawns inside your bounty target area. Wouldn't that be the whole point of having an a-hole after you all the time?

To further this idea, probably for future implementation: what if the way the Lich levels and takes over a new planet, is by showing up with a kill squad to a planet he doesn't currently own, and you fail to take him down for good? Meaning, yes, the level up would still be because you didn't have the proper sequence of requiem mods, but at least you failing to take them down "there and then" and them escaping and surviving will now make sense. Your enemy lived to fight another day, grew stronger, and now their influence spread on that planet as well. Now the Lich steals your stuff on that planet too, and the kill squads will be tougher.

As a side note, ignoring a thrall kill squad and/or a spawned in Lich in order to carry on and complete your objective SHOULD still be allowed and possible. However, doing so for a set amount of times on the same planet (let's say 4 times you ignore a thrall squad/platoon on the same planet) should also result on the Lich "conquering" said planet and leveling up. As in, you ignored the problem, now the Lich took over that planet and grew stronger.  

 

It's essentially the same thing as now but

1) it would be more integrated with regular missions (lich missions on planets that are already taken over should remain as they are, for a direct path to the Lich, however with this the Liches and thralls will also be part of regular gameplay)

2) it would feel like the Lich "earned" their new territory. Sure, we would still fail to kill them just because we didn't know the correct answer to the "puzzle", but let's face it, if it only came down to damage any Tenno would down their Lich on first encounter with a skana. The Lich getting stabbed, then laughing it off and escaping means our stab triggered their evolution, their escape gave them a chance to amass more forces. Hence, level up and new planet owned.

3) The added ability for the Lich's forces to advance on and take over a planet because you were there and simply ignored them would also add to the whole "personal nemesis" thing. "I was there, I could have stopped them, but I chose not to because it was a hassle or I was underprepared. Well now a whole planet is under their control and I have nobody to blame but myself." That kind of thing.

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