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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

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These sound like good changes, but I can't help but feel like it's just more bandaids to make a fundamentally broken system tolerable.

"Oh people don't want to create liches? Give them way to avoid the system / give them more info about the end goal before they commit."

A player should WANT to fight a lich, not decide to disengage from it.

By now you're probably sick of it but yes, I will bring Shadow of Mordor again.
Fighting Nemeses was FUN, regardless of the loot.

THAT should be the end goal, not making the system "tolerable".

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Please consider something about the 5 forma for each kuva weapon and we would be able to put all forma at once and level the weapon once with the xp need of 5 formas ,it's the same but easier for us 

Edited by -GrT-kostasp99

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15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Converted Liches will stay longer, do more damage, and actually use their abilities! 

I sure hope it's true. Witnessing converted Lv.85 lich with Ogris barely scratching the paint on a ~Lv.50 Grineer Roller has put to an end any second thoughts regarding killing/converting liches.

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" A downed Kuva Larvling will now display an icon of the Kuva weapon that its birthed Kuva Lich will possess! "

A change that should have happened in the first update of Kuva Lich system honestly.

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I did a lich once, and my problem is the Relics.    You have to grind to find the right pattern, plus grind for getting the relics.   Its one to many random work streams.

My recommendation as we get murmurs it cracks those Relics.   Plus attempts to kill the lich doesnt use up Relics.

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Wow, those changes sound quite good! However, is there any way to integrate the murmur farming into the casual gameplay? I am very tired of asking "murmur farming anyone" in recruiting/alliance chat because a lot of people either got all weapons or don't want to farm them. And playing alone is no fun 😞

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Reduce third requiem mod thralls requirement for unveiling to half and increase requiem mods' uses at least to 5 or 6. Increase % of progress you get towards unveiling a mod each time you decide to level up a lich/kill it. Be reasonable. You wont work 80 hours a week for 40 hours payment.

Otherwise its still would be a mindless grindfest, who cares about being able to 'choose' weapons to grind for when you can just buy any of them for mr for like 20p.

Цитата

I sure hope it's true

No amount of time or damage will make them any good, they're useless af.

Normal specters are 10x times more useful than any kuva ones. Not to mention can be summoned at will and re-spawned.

Edited by -Temp0-

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I'm not the only one who thinks this but...

I know that the liches are limited to the "late game", but, I've been farming liches for a while and the nodes are completly empty. maby this won't be a wonderfull idea BUT what if thralls spawn on every mission node (incliding invasions and sorties) on the tiles that are affected by your lich and only you can execute the thralls  (like you already do with your litch) and then give everyone murmur progress?

this would make thrall hunting a little bit less lonly for thoose players like me who like to play with randos and for the lonly wolfes it does aferall exist  the "solo" mode

Edited by ML-XV

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These changes sounds awesome, but I just have 1 small suggestion to make. Should be easy enough to implement but will substantially improve the lich system: Let us spar with captured Lich in the Simulacrum.    

You know how a lot of people complains that the Lich system isn't really about the lich, but more about the Thralls. The Lich themselves are exciting and fun enemies to fight agaisnt, but you will very rarely fight them. Most of the time you will be fighting the thralls.  

So what if there's a console where you can summon your captured Lich in the Simulacrum to fight agaisnt. No parazon interaction. Just fight the lich until it goes down to 0 health and it will dissapear. 

This will substantially increase the amount of time you get to interact with your Lich. Making them your own mini boss that you can summon on demand to fight.  

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lich 1.1: Dev Workshop + ETA:
 

Tenno!

Welcome to a 3-part workshop covering Kuva Lich changes. We have already talked about changes in 2 major batches: At the end of 2019 both in our Devstreams and our initial Dev Workshop on November 11th, and at the start of 2020 on our first Stream of the year. This workshop aims to better summarize the on-couch thoughts into what’s being implemented and why.
 

The 3 parts are as follows:
1. ETA
2. Can / Can’t Expect
3. Bigger Picture. 


Part 1: ETA!

First and foremost - we were going to ship these changes today but are giving ourselves until next week for more testing. Expect this next week on PC… and maybe even PS4 + XB1 (with Switch soon)! 


Part 2: What you can and can’t expect!


You can expect: 

2020 Kuvision

The birth of the very first Kuva Lich came just over 3 months ago to the day (October 31 2019)! A copious amount of Additions, Changes, and Fixes have been made in these 3 months; each one of them touching the surface of feedback, but not fully reaching all the way into the depths. Today, that changes! 

If you watched Devstream #136, the 2019 Player Survey showed us that out of the 27,000+ responses, the Kuva Lich system was the 2019 addition that was enjoyed the least. Many players voiced that the Kuva Lich system got progressively less fun the more time and energy was devoted to it. While finding the line between repetition and progress is one Warframe has struggled with since its first day, Liches highlighted some issues we aim to address while walking that line.

The Kuva Larvling Who Lived

Starting from the very beginning of Kuva Lich conception brings us to Kuva Larvlings. Kuva Larvlings will now play a key role in determining your future relationship with your Kuva Lich.

  • A downed Kuva Larvling will now display an icon of the Kuva weapon that its birthed Kuva Lich will possess!
    • This allows players to decide upfront if they want to pursue that weapon by finishing the downed Kuva Larvling, or to ignore and attempt another Lich.
  Reveal hidden contents

image (26).png

As an added benefit to completing the mission even if you choose NOT to kill the Kuva Larvling, a downed Kuva Larvling will grant 100 Kuva on End of Mission.

 

Breaking Your Back for Knowledge

  • Your Kuva Lich will no longer kill you when you fail a Requiem guess, nor will they attempt to break your back. The Parazon stabbing animation will play but the UI will show whether it was a success or failure. Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave, leaving your back and dignity intact! There is no longer a failure loop here for the Requiem flow. 

Valence Transfer Infusion

  • First introduced in 26.0.6, Valence Transfer was designed to address owning duplicate Kuva weapons with different unique innate damage bonuses. Giving you the ability to replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus (plus investments like Forma, Focus Lens etc) with one from another Kuva weapon was a good start, but we can push this even further!

    Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

Other Changes you can expect:

  • You can expect the Chance of a Lich having an Ephemera to double. 
  • Converted Liches will stay longer, do more damage, and actually use their abilities! 
  • 2 more Weapons entering the Kuva Fold!


What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’: We have removed the prototype for this for now, because rather than not fixing the core loop and just letting a Lich be banished, we intend to focus on the core loop first. Since duplicates are now opt-in and have value for a min-maxer, there’s less of a reason to dispel a Lich. 


Part 3: Bigger Picture Items

The major questions remaining to be answered include Kuva Lich + Railjack, and other faction Liches. Until we complete Part 2 of this workshop, we won’t have much to discuss on this front, but stay tuned! 

Thank you for reading - see you soon, Tenno!
 

What if we had a chance to produce a Lich weapon from the one we may have killed our lich with. For example if we were to produce a lich and have a small chance if once we kill it to produce a kuva variant of our weapon to convert or keep. I’d personally love an pre defined elemental ferrox..

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Many thanks,Rebecca. The changes look very promissing.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Valence Transfer Infusion

  • First introduced in 26.0.6, Valence Transfer was designed to address owning duplicate Kuva weapons with different unique innate damage bonuses. Giving you the ability to replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus (plus investments like Forma, Focus Lens etc) with one from another Kuva weapon was a good start, but we can push this even further!

    Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

What I don't get is how this is supposed to work with different elements though. If the 25% Kohm is Toxin and the 40% one is Cold, how is the element of the 44% weapon determined? Is it the players' choice or does the element of the highest-% carry over?

My appolgies if this has been covered somewhere else, but I did not engage with Liches after having dealt with my first one.

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vor 17 Stunden schrieb Abraxas:

C'mon, guys. Please, do something about grinding murmurs. It gets old after managing to do the first Lich...

Also, the forma sink and forced repetition to level the weapon to the max is a bit too much.

 

Sorry for the negativity. I was just hoping that these two aspects wouldn't get ignored...

I see how grinding murmurs and forma can be tedious but the thing is that you can easily do the first two murmurs in less than 25 minutes and doing the forma is very very optional since you get more capacity for every forma fitting builds is rather easy with one or two anyway 

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Can the Lich Ephemera be displayed along with the weapon on the Larvling?  Alternatively, can it be moved to a vendor?  Each Vanquished or Converted Lich would award 1 Token, 15 of these Tokens can then be redeemed for an Ephemera of our choice.

Also, can consideration please be given to endless missions awarding an escalating amount of murmur progress?  For example, if someone wishes to only do a Lich Survival mission for 3 hours, they should be able to reveal all of the required Requiem mods needed to conclude their Lich.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PS4)ESYLD:

Can the Lich Ephemera be displayed along with the weapon on the Larvling?  Alternatively, can it be moved to a vendor?  Each Vanquished or Converted Lich would award 1 Token, 15 of these Tokens can then be redeemed for an Ephemera of our choice.

Also, can consideration please be given to endless missions awarding an escalating amount of murmur progress?  For example, if someone wishes to only do a Lich Survival mission for 3 hours, they should be able to reveal all of the required Requiem mods needed to conclude their Lich.

yes pls

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 This system has based from Shadow of Mordor series which we can get loots and challenge at the same time and that time is a very small window. I mean have played both of the shadow of mordor games more than 200 hours and didn't get bored from it cause system feels like alive. I can get there should be take more time on warframe to take down a lich but it shouldn't be like this , cause if you are lucky one lich may die in 10 minutes (yes , in one of my  41 lich hunts I manage to kill it by luck on first try ) Games needs a coop aspect too. Here is my solution for the some of the problem:

  • There should be no thralls farming on anywhere , it should be like in the shadow of mordor series. First of all liches needs more dialogs secondly thralls turn to bodyguards we should find at the and of the invaded node as a miniboss like thing, and thralls should have diffrent models as well, cause right now they are just rushed desinged place holders and  nothing more. We should interogate them after we killed them and after 10 or 15 thralls we should know all the requim spots and mods. In the meanwhile liches can invade us we cound't kill them but we can overpower them to escape or they can overpowered us. if we clear all the thralls we should find the exact node for him spawn and fight with him like a capture mission and if we didn't kill his thralls also there should be way to spawn him so we can fight with him and all of the remaining thralls at the same time but more of a challanging fight . There should be other liches in other nodes too and actually they may have cooperation or skirmishes between them as well like in the original source.
  • Liches have grab attack wich could kill many of the none tank frames , this is not a problem for me cause I am mostly using brutes as warframe and they can get punches but if you are a mag main or even a frost main that atack could kill you in one shot , atacks like this should have changed to skill based atacks like in dark souls and some hack and slash games we should able too defend or dodge some atacks with our reflexes and grab animation should have changed to a clash animation like in old god of war games (after the clash if lich succed it could kill us , if we succed we put a huuuge damage on to lich or might even knocked down him ) 
    Long story short we need a more active combat
  • And most importantly they shound't be status immune
    @[DE]Rebecca have a nice day
Edited by Orakan

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • You can expect the Chance of a Lich having an Ephemera to double. 

I'd prefer it to be "Kill N liches of a given type to get an Ephemera".

Ephemeras were introduced as achievement reward rather than a game of chance yet only a few in the game follow this rule. Majority are hidden behind a roll of a dice and that's not a reward for dedication. Someone may kill 30 liches and won't get a single ephemera while someone else will get each one from the first try. Of course it's extreme cases, but that's how randomness actually work. You may flip a coin and it will land the same 30 times in a row. Probability of such outcome is incredibly low, but it can happen and being on the wrong end of the Bell curve is a terrible experience.

Receiving tokens for killing liches and buying ephemeras from a vendor would amend this issue. Maybe even from the very same Palladino even if she won't offer service to kill liches. 10-15 tokens should be quite enough for that.

Of course liches themself should have an ephemera. Maybe even all of them. But it should either not drop at all or drop with low probability by being a nice surprise for some players while everyone else will have predictable progress toward it.

 

Another option would be to reward an ephemera for making a "perfect" weapon of a given type, but that means completionists will have to make a perfect kuva weapon with impact damage bonus which will rub everyone quite the wrong way due to it being the worst possible damage type in the game. But this still will be a reward with predictable progress to it.

Edited by lainverse

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Tbh, the whole lich system feels like "press x to get gun". Doesn't really feel consequential, you know? 

It'll be great the next Corpus nemesis works like shadow of mordor, where nemesis is created through your choice of actions. Like: the head engineer in charge of Ambulas' maintenance got pissed because you just won't stop breaking it.

I gotta cry beeg since Grineer bruddas always get the meh prototype when it comes to new stuff for Corpus capitalist bastards to learn and improve on/from its errors/shortcomings. 

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Some good changes in the right direction, to be sure, but it doesn't address the biggest 'under the hood' flaw of liches in any way.

The problem is, liches are an activity that is mutually exclusive with every other activity in the game, and an activity that spans over 200+ nodes, selected randomly per player. Every other activity has its location(s) determined server-wide, which lets public matchmaking work effectively.

Liches, on the other hand, scatter the playerbase all over the place. It's pretty rare to get a full squad in random matchmaking, and the fact that finishing a lich is usually a 1h-3h long job, that you do only for the weapon and some negligible kuva drops, doesn't help with keeping the player density high enough. It just isn't sustainable the way it is now. If we could go about our other daily farms at the same time, liches would be a much more attractive option, while also being more organic instead of ending up as yet another content island.

Finally, another issue the current state of things creates, is that premade squads are penalized compared to random ones (assuming you can manage to get one, anyway). Players are unlikely to have lich territory on the same planets, and between anger meter being dependent on territory being present on the node and lich attempts awarding a greater chunk of murmur progress (and some kuva), anyone who is doing a lich misison without having territory there is playing suboptimally. It wasn't as much of an issue when parazon attempts awarded progress to everyone, but that's been changed a long time ago, with no alternative being offered to people who, you know, just want to play with their friends and not be punished for it with slower progress.

TLDR; Liches being a completely isolated copy of the entire starchart needlessly creates problems for both matchmaking and premade squads.

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17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I like the changes in general, but wouldn't a more elegant solution (for us, probably not for you) be to have the Larvling wielding the weapon they will use as a Lich? As in, the Larvling spawns with the Shildeg in her hand trying to kill you with it, and if you turn that Larvling into a Lich that Lich will have the Kuva Shildeg

i absolutely don't want this because i have bad eyesight, it's difficult for me to check what weapons they hold.

 

  

15 hours ago, auxy said:

These improvements are good, but I'm not going to be "OK" with the system until RNG values on weapon drops are removed - all this mess where you can add values together is stepping around the real problem. Same for Railjack, by the way - RNG values on RNG drops are not acceptable - if I wanted to play a KR/CN MMO I would.

Isn't RNG always in any loot games? i think it fine that we have RNG.

Edited by ToKeSia

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One of the most boring thing about kuva lich is that murmur can only be farm in special mission, (without any endless mission too). It will be great to farm them in any other standard mission, fissure, invasion, corpus, infested mission, with some thralls poping with squadmate if it's not a grineer mission. May be less  thrall pop than  lich mission.

Because actualy, it's like lich are somthing "out" of warframe, not realy in the core game. For exemple, ghoule are present even if you don't run bounty.

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3 minutes ago, ToKeSia said:
17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I like the changes in general, but wouldn't a more elegant solution (for us, probably not for you) be to have the Larvling wielding the weapon they will use as a Lich? As in, the Larvling spawns with the Shildeg in her hand trying to kill you with it, and if you turn that Larvling into a Lich that Lich will have the Kuva Shildeg

i absolutely don't want this because i have bad eyesight, it's difficult for me to check what weapons they hold.

You probably have terrible sight in such case since most of them are very unique. I'd prefer both, though. It doesn't make sense for a random icon to just pop up and tell us what will happen to this larvling in the future if we choose to stab it. It will make a lot more sense for larvling to wield a _normal_ version of a weapon against us. This way icon will just tell us what weapon this larvling already have and into which kuva weapon it will be upgraded rather than predict which random gun queens will issue him or her for no particular reason.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)Veytok said:

God, double the ephemera rate again? Boosting wep %?

We're just making all the changes for the cry babies I see 

 

This is why vets have nothing to do because everything is so damn easy

I commend you.  Apparently you've already committed to having no life outside of this game, and believe that anyone else not showing the same absolute lack of outside life outside a beta game is worthless.

 

Might I suggest that valuation is pretty backwards?

 

The reason veterans don't have content is because the game is structured such that there is no endgame.  There's no constant influx of content.  Thus the term "veteran" might be replaced by "anyone who has wasted enough time grinding through the content."

I've got plenty of hours in.  I'm shy of the Kuva weapons, a few rare arcanes, conclave content, and a few intrinsics levels.  That's not a positive, and viewing everyone else as scrubs is pretty meaningless in a game where more players means more content.  I applaud not having to face off against more bullet sponge enemies, to get the next thing that is functionally useless.  If you're going to argue otherwise I'd suggest you tell me the last time you used the Stug, Braton, Paris, or even the Pantera.  All of these items are functionally never seen in the game after you get the MR, and using them is not a sign of skill so much as a sign that you don't have anything better.  Put simply, Soma Prime>Braton.  As such, more time isn't a better player, gear check versus spongey enemies means a low MR player can outpace a higher MR player using better gear easily.

 

Our current Lich system doesn't cater to well equipped players, because it's a time check rather than a skill check.  Complaining that choice before entering the time check is making less content because of less pointless grind is....baffling.  It's like saying low % drop rates make more content, because it takes months to get the content.  Yeah Railjack has more content because the leap from 9 to 10 requires 512 intrinsics, right?

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5 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

-tell me the last time you used the Stug, Braton, Paris, or even the Pantera-

For what it's worth, I still use the Braton Prime
My Umbra loadout has that, the Lex Prime (since I can't get the LatoP), and a Prisma Skana (since I can't get the SkanaP) - just for nostalgia sake. And you know what? If you know what you're doing, you can still kick ass and take names with it - it's honestly pretty fun

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