Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

[FreelanceTentacleMonster]

A major flaw with the Kuva Lich mechanic lies not in the system or rewards, but in the execution - and I feel that the problem could be remedied with a better first impression and introduction.

So, here's the thing - as it is, the Lich can never actually be relevant to the universe of Warframe as a whole, because they need to fit in as this repeatable challenge. What we should have gotten, and could still get - as demonstrated by none other than the belated insertion of the Vor's Prize quest - is an introductory quest with a predefined starter Lich to introduce the player to the mechanics and concepts, to actually sell their first Lich as a threat. They'd be walked through the process of finding out the Requiem combination as this scripted Lich gained more and more power, culminating in something like the Galleon showdown seen in the demos. After this, the game would resume by generating Liches like the ones we have now - not quite as epic, but with a solid first impression firmly implanted already to give them context and menace.

It'd be like considering the fight with the Elder Grineer Queen as a tutorial for Kuva Siphons. The climax of The War Within clearly has more gravity and importance than the subsequent Siphon encounters, but you've been trained for what's coming, and the importance and danger factor of the Kuva Guardians has already been drilled in - instinct and experience take over and fill in where the original shock factor is now absent. By setting the tone with a strong first impression, the Liches could have stuck a lot better with the playerbase - and still could.

[GPrime96]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Tch. What dignity? The ones who cried constantly on the forums about it certainly don't have any.

You get four revives during a mission (An extra two with arcanes). Quit your blubbering and take your failure and punishment like a man!

Can’t be more true

[Exodess]

44 minutes ago, FreelanceTentacleMonster said:

A major flaw with the Kuva Lich mechanic lies not in the system or rewards, but in the execution - and I feel that the problem could be remedied with a better first impression and introduction.

So, here's the thing - as it is, the Lich can never actually be relevant to the universe of Warframe as a whole, because they need to fit in as this repeatable challenge. What we should have gotten, and could still get - as demonstrated by none other than the belated insertion of the Vor's Prize quest - is an introductory quest with a predefined starter Lich to introduce the player to the mechanics and concepts, to actually sell their first Lich as a threat. They'd be walked through the process of finding out the Requiem combination as this scripted Lich gained more and more power, culminating in something like the Galleon showdown seen in the demos. After this, the game would resume by generating Liches like the ones we have now - not quite as epic, but with a solid first impression firmly implanted already to give them context and menace.

It'd be like considering the fight with the Elder Grineer Queen as a tutorial for Kuva Siphons. The climax of The War Within clearly has more gravity and importance than the subsequent Siphon encounters, but you've been trained for what's coming, and the importance and danger factor of the Kuva Guardians has already been drilled in - instinct and experience take over and fill in where the original shock factor is now absent. By setting the tone with a strong first impression, the Liches could have stuck a lot better with the playerbase - and still could.

I do like the concept of a truly immortal Lich, introduced through a story quest that we have some degree of manual customization over (my Liches always seem butt-ugly and high-pitched wheezy -- hardly intimidating.)

[Lone_Dude]

Wtf so many people have strong M tendencies here. Why would you enjoy getting punished for literally guessing a "number" wrong otherwise?

It's one thing when you go full on dumb melee assault, miss the dodge window, Lich grabs you and throws you. You're paying for damage you've dealt and for lack of attention. That stuff is good, there should be more of it. As easy it is to predict, it's still levels above most combat interactions.

Now compare that to the game punishing you for just not guessing the correct requiem mod. Like, why? It would make more sense if lich gave you some actual tips. For example, if liches had specific monologue lines(with some differences depending on Lich personality and traits) corresponding to specific requiem mods and their order, that would unlock once you get past a murmur threshold and down the lich a couple of times. Or something like that. THEN it would actually work. On failed attempt you'd get punished for not listening and rushing the process.

Thing is, the back breaking part isn't even all that important. One less revive per mission? Pfft, whatever, I have 5 left and they were made free and rechargeable long ago, so it's not like I'll have to pay 12 plat for them like it was back in the day. And it's not like I felt intimidated by the lich, opposite, actually, since I literally allowed it to kill me when you really think about it. It has these animoo vibes where protag gets hit and then it turns out they were only using 5% of their power. I'm basically letting the poor lich to have its "moment of triumph" lmao. It only served to remind me even more of how easy the game is.

The true punishment for the failed attempt is the agro reduction(and lich leveling up when it comes to new-ish players). As lich levels up after a failed attempt it loses agro, meaning your chance to encounter it again is drastically lowered, unless your lich has reached level 5 already, meaning less possible thralls per node and less chances at stabbing the lich.

The whole change is mostly useless, for me it means 1 less LMB click to revive and not having to wait for a long animation to play out. But I find it weird that some people legit enjoy getting punished for no damn reason, even though we could have a deeper gameplay mechanic for that.

[xkvnrichie]

Can we have a consumable item that let us change the bonus element of the weapon please?

 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Just now, xkvnrichie said:

Can we have a consumable item that let us change the bonus element of the weapon please?

 

What's the point? We can already choose the element. 

[CheeseGromit]

Do Lichs have a purpose in game or is that part of the bigger picture and yet to be realised?

The proposed changes certainly appear to address some of the frustrating issues with Lichs but they also seem to reinforce Lichs being mostly about the guns. That's probably great if you're interested in collecting the guns and maxing them. Otherwise I don't understand, what am I missing?

[IVitorGG]

Ngl this is actually great feature BUT murmur farming still very very boring, i usually do with 2-3 people in my squad and i take bout 45-50 minutes to finish one requien mod reveal... after u got the first one u think wow lets go but then u realise u need to do all of that all over again... really annoying

[GPrime96]

2 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

Wtf so many people have strong M tendencies here. Why would you enjoy getting punished for literally guessing a "number" wrong otherwise?

Probably because Liches are a complete Joke that dies in 2 - 4 Secs in all 3 Stages without the insta kills?

[Lone_Dude]

1 minute ago, GPrime96 said:

Probably because Liches are a complete Joke that dies in 2 - 4 Secs in all 3 Stages without the insta kills?

And allowing it to kill you by guessing a random number while the lich is DOWNED somehow makes it more challenging? LMAO thats the "complete joke".

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

7 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

Probably because Liches are a complete Joke that dies in 2 - 4 Secs in all 3 Stages without the insta kills?

Okay. now how does a completely random, inconsequential, and unavoidable death make it better? You can literally sit in an empty room and roll a D10, and pretend to "lose" every time you roll anything but a 1. That is the same amount of fun as Liches. 

[GPrime96]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Okay. now how does a completely random, inconsequential, and unavoidable death make it better? You can literally sit in an empty room and roll a D10, and pretend to "lose" every time you roll anything but a 1. That is the same amount of fun as Liches. 

The removal of insta kills from failed Mercies won’t mean it would be better.

[ChozenBardoUmbra]

The changes are good, 1 thing I'm suggesting though, is to have a chance to have Thralls and the Lich spawn in all missions, the system is too contained on itself. 

Also should be able to steal in any mission too.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

On 2020-01-30 at 8:49 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

• 2 more Weapons entering the Kuva Fold!

Kuva Stug, perhaps!?

[Doraz_]

DE, why not simply make the kuva larvling USE THE WEAPON itself !?

 

It's makes more sense world-building-wise, as he/she can ba just a simple soldier, with a specific training and tools to fight with that gets enhanced by becoming lich.

 

WF should already have all the systema to make this happen, from procedural generation of enemy to ik correction when handling different weapons or the model of the enemy being different.

 

the ephemera can be then assigned to the larvling itself as well.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Am 29.1.2020 um 22:49 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

A downed Kuva Larvling will now display an icon of the Kuva weapon that its birthed Kuva Lich will possess!

To improve immersion on this one, why isn't the larvling already using the weapon we may later want to steal from him? Ok it's some work on the animations but it'd just feel more natural than this signpost saying "Stop, if you kill me you will get x. Do you want to proceed?"

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

Its a bit disappointing they're removing the kill mechanic, I actually enjoyed that if i screwed up that i was punished for it, it used to happen in Shadow of Mordor - RNG or not.  There needs to be more interactions where your misjudgement punish you rather than us just bruteforcing or steamrolling the content we have, but that probably stems from my love of Dark Souls.

Reduce the murmur for all requiems to the current 60% for the first and leave the kill mechanic in, or maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment and engage my lich whether i know the order or not.

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

2 hours ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

To improve immersion on this one, why isn't the larvling already using the weapon we may later want to steal from him? Ok it's some work on the animations but it'd just feel more natural than this signpost saying "Stop, if you kill me you will get x. Do you want to proceed?"

Didn' t see this before my reply. 

Makes sense, but sometimes you cant see what weapon they're using, so they should use the weapon AND we get the prompt.

[Benour]

KUVA GORGON please make it happen 😳

Also this is good start DE, keep going!

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

7 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

Wtf so many people have strong M tendencies here. Why would you enjoy getting punished for literally guessing a "number" wrong otherwise?

It's one thing when you go full on dumb melee assault, miss the dodge window, Lich grabs you and throws you. You're paying for damage you've dealt and for lack of attention. That stuff is good, there should be more of it. As easy it is to predict, it's still levels above most combat interactions.

Now compare that to the game punishing you for just not guessing the correct requiem mod. Like, why? It would make more sense if lich gave you some actual tips. For example, if liches had specific monologue lines(with some differences depending on Lich personality and traits) corresponding to specific requiem mods and their order, that would unlock once you get past a murmur threshold and down the lich a couple of times. Or something like that. THEN it would actually work. On failed attempt you'd get punished for not listening and rushing the process.

Thing is, the back breaking part isn't even all that important. One less revive per mission? Pfft, whatever, I have 5 left and they were made free and rechargeable long ago, so it's not like I'll have to pay 12 plat for them like it was back in the day. And it's not like I felt intimidated by the lich, opposite, actually, since I literally allowed it to kill me when you really think about it. It has these animoo vibes where protag gets hit and then it turns out they were only using 5% of their power. I'm basically letting the poor lich to have its "moment of triumph" lmao. It only served to remind me even more of how easy the game is.

The true punishment for the failed attempt is the agro reduction(and lich leveling up when it comes to new-ish players). As lich levels up after a failed attempt it loses agro, meaning your chance to encounter it again is drastically lowered, unless your lich has reached level 5 already, meaning less possible thralls per node and less chances at stabbing the lich.

The whole change is mostly useless, for me it means 1 less LMB click to revive and not having to wait for a long animation to play out. But I find it weird that some people legit enjoy getting punished for no damn reason, even though we could have a deeper gameplay mechanic for that.

It's not that we "enjoy being punished"


It's that we should not be rewarded for getting a wrong stab. Kuva Liches are immortal killing machines who seem, by their annoying lines, to love/hate us like a Batman/Joker kind of dynamic. They want us dead to prove to us that Tenno/Warframes are ancient news and have no right to be a thing anymore. To top it off, for a Grineer, anything that is NOT grineer should die as it's unworthy to live at all. A grineer letting us live is the stupidest thing ever. 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tyreal2012 said:

Its a bit disappointing they're removing the kill mechanic, I actually enjoyed that if i screwed up that i was punished for it, it used to happen in Shadow of Mordor - RNG or not.  There needs to be more interactions where your misjudgement punish you rather than us just bruteforcing or steamrolling the content we have, but that probably stems from my love of Dark Souls.

Reduce the murmur for all requiems to the current 60% for the first and leave the kill mechanic in, or maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment and engage my lich whether i know the order or not.

Also I'm so happy to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this. I'd be okay if we were put into a bleedout upon failing a stab(that would be SOOOO much more reasonable imo) that was so at least squadmates could still rez us and we aren't forced to use up a revive.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

3 hours ago, Doraz_ said:

DE, why not simply make the kuva larvling USE THE WEAPON itself !?

 

It's makes more sense world-building-wise, as he/she can ba just a simple soldier, with a specific training and tools to fight with that gets enhanced by becoming lich.

 

WF should already have all the systema to make this happen, from procedural generation of enemy to ik correction when handling different weapons or the model of the enemy being different.

 

the ephemera can be then assigned to the larvling itself as well.

Ehh...I don't agree about the ephemera. I think the ephemera is more a result of being AFTER becoming a lich, they're called VENGEFUL *insert element name here*.

How could they be vengeful if they're not a lich yet?

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

7 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Also I'm so happy to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this. I'd be okay if we were put into a bleedout upon failing a stab(that would be SOOOO much more reasonable imo) that was so at least squadmates could still rez us and we aren't forced to use up a revive.

That would be be best choice I would think. Especially as 90% of the time I am playing in a group.

[(XBOX)Veytok]

20 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Ehh...I don't agree about the ephemera. I think the ephemera is more a result of being AFTER becoming a lich, they're called VENGEFUL *insert element name here*.

How could they be vengeful if they're not a lich yet?

The community wants everything handed to them on a platter 

[(XBOX)Veytok]

20 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I commend you.  Apparently you've already committed to having no life outside of this game, and believe that anyone else not showing the same absolute lack of outside life outside a beta game is worthless.

 

Might I suggest that valuation is pretty backwards?

 

The reason veterans don't have content is because the game is structured such that there is no endgame.  There's no constant influx of content.  Thus the term "veteran" might be replaced by "anyone who has wasted enough time grinding through the content."

I've got plenty of hours in.  I'm shy of the Kuva weapons, a few rare arcanes, conclave content, and a few intrinsics levels.  That's not a positive, and viewing everyone else as scrubs is pretty meaningless in a game where more players means more content.  I applaud not having to face off against more bullet sponge enemies, to get the next thing that is functionally useless.  If you're going to argue otherwise I'd suggest you tell me the last time you used the Stug, Braton, Paris, or even the Pantera.  All of these items are functionally never seen in the game after you get the MR, and using them is not a sign of skill so much as a sign that you don't have anything better.  Put simply, Soma Prime>Braton.  As such, more time isn't a better player, gear check versus spongey enemies means a low MR player can outpace a higher MR player using better gear easily.

 

Our current Lich system doesn't cater to well equipped players, because it's a time check rather than a skill check.  Complaining that choice before entering the time check is making less content because of less pointless grind is....baffling.  It's like saying low % drop rates make more content, because it takes months to get the content.  Yeah Railjack has more content because the leap from 9 to 10 requires 512 intrinsics, right?

Everything is too easy, lowering the play value and time put into the game