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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

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34 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

A downed, stabbed enemy, not killing you for not guessing a random number correctly is not a reward lmao. It doesn't give you anything. Lich levels up, gains territory and loses agro. Player is still punished, as in Lich gains power. You quoted the whole comment of mine, but did you even bother to read it before replying?

!SPOILER ALERT!

  Reveal hidden contents

Warframes are immortal(Hunhow and Stalky boy have a short discussion on that) killing machines(Orokin would prove it if we didn't kill em all) as well, not only in lore, but also during actual gameplay - lich gets 3 revives per node, I get 4 or 6 AND down it while surrounded by its minions. What now? Is it a tie? Or should I tell the joker that I just bottom texted him and that he lives in a society?

How does the lich "lEt mELIvE" if I down it and then stab it? It's not like I'm stabbing it mid-fight while its at the top of its power, ready to react. The #*!%er is kneeling and wheezing as if I hit it with the wu-flu. It ain't in a position to "let" me live, since it's basically at my mercy instead lmao. That's why the kill feels so out of place. Not only does it come out of nowhere, over nothing, it also comes from a weakened, pretty much knocked out enemy when it gets stabbed.

As it stands currently, when lich kills me in such a state, it feels so out of place that it just looks pathetic. It reminds me that it's literally the only way that thing can kill me lmao - it can only get me in a cutscene after I basically won the damn fight because the script said so. And how do I deal with that? I just shrug, press a revive button, realizing that I could do it 5 more times in a single mission, and then I just move on with the murmur grind. How immersive and lore-friendly is that? It's out of place, it's artificial and it comes from a random guess.

The whole reasoning for a half-assed illogical gameplay mechanic with no actual consequences is just some fluff. It's hard to take any of that sersiously because people act so high and mighty about it with that "hurr durr challenge hurr durr punishment hurr durr liches are stronk" attitude, yet even the reasoning behind that whole thing is as weak as the liches themselves. Not everyone likes to pretend that the enemy who can only kill us in a cutscene is the most dangerous thing ever, maybe DE find a way to implement it back in properly one day, but saying that it worked just fine won't help the situation.

not only that but other team mates can acomplish realistic feats, but what bothers me is taht the rewards are lacking original parts such as kit-gun or amp parts, with so many operator schools and nothing to learn, we get passive traits, and other stuff that has no growth, these lich cards and relics are a pain in the ass so far, although i do like how the lich fight and how u geta chance at killing or partnering up with them, its something that should be added to open worlds and no just smaller levels, with other modifications, loot, and replayability, i mean its really hard content and it has high RNG, i already said teh boxes and relics have no interesting loot, just cards or mods for the parazon which just came out, so nothing fancy or aughmenting is found, so i wanna see some kit-parts, amps, and mods added to these experiences, auras are good, arcanes, and other improvements when doing bounties at cetus, or fortuna, because these places are great for this kind of stuff, even if it means that kuva siphon or excavators appear randomly at least taht means you dont have to go to a particular node or planet to rely on excavations, the wolf thingy is bullS#&$ too, i also think other boss fights, story and missions have terrible rewards or bad replay loot which can be fixed with additional enemies, temporary random generalizations  algorithings based on each area so players dont just run to extraction, keys dropped by enemies or interesting pickups or crazy ammo types like other games, each planets only weakness is taht it has no special or interesting loot but just warframes and locked content, so the kuva lich should addapt to or specialize around these concepets and the allies taht it can find from infecting or governing these areas, which inturn modifies the types of mods and pickups discovered, found inside lockers, and combat aspected damage types, if u know what i mean, press 1, otherwise well what were u sayin!

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4 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

The fight cannot be won until the lich dies for good. Just because I survived does not mean I won. The lich's purpose is to kill you and be a meaningful threat that you cannot just one-hit-kill like a trash mob

Actually no, the lich's purpose was do die and be reborn over and over until he finaly got killed. That was the system they actually sold us, but not the system we got.

The word "lich" loses allof it's meaning in the system they went live with. If they had gone with the system they sold us the meaning of the word "lich" would have been 100% intact. Now with the changes coming it is 75% intact, us killing them and having them resurrect would be better instead of the "muahahahahawawawa! better luck next time chump!" we will get. Then slamming us in the floor as a getaway move would also have been a cherry on top, without the frame dying. Some Kuva overload as they res and backhand us into the wall or bending us improperly over their knee.

Is there even a way to properly bend someone over your knee?

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Just seen the fusion updates for kuva weapon valence.
Little nit-pick. The fact that it auto-applies the damage type to your existing weapon seems like a mistake. Say I have a 5 forma, 56% corrosive valence stubba and I want to boost it to 60% with same damage type, I'd have to be applying my forma'd weapon's bonus to new weapon.
Would be much nicer if we could apply either the new damage type or the existing damage type to the existing weapon and just up the numbers.

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okay so collected kuva should useful in relays and orbiter defense systems, also the broken scepter and broken war weapon functions are lacking lustre, even after they are repaired, i hope we can see that they have other features and ways to improve them outside that of a riven mod, i can see the scepter capable of building charges and casting magic, and the sword broken or not to have its own special stance and forms, which at least grant some arcanes to power + and unlockable traits per rank,

the last think i want to say is that anything kuva should be used to unlock emotes and ephemerals, paths as operators, weapons, kitguns, kitmelee, archwing, and optics for harvesting to be somewhat fun, its jammed behind a protocol to defend the objective and its really boring, siphoning is really boring also and has no ways to get more exciting rightnow the best idea was to allow kuva lich and siphon outside of their locked conscrips into orv vallis and cetus's open world, the caverns and areas are many so it makes kuva lich more of a opetiocion optional to players who are new, new enemeis will be interesting to players to get kuvas and robots which are interesting to their skill levels and power, who can have more purpose and lore, if they are indeed have captured a certain node or spot in the plains of eidolon, KONZU will alert higher level players of strong monsters and demons, liches, or aliens who threathen cetus, which affects how the minning and fishing life is overall what types of fish and monsters to encounter which are recluses of old seasonal events, nearby nodes, and blueprints to crafty new boats and bows, archwings or vehicles, 

now with this you add more destructibles, and more enemies, and give each focus school a few more unlockables, then relic opening overall would be more fun anywhere in the solar system.

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any relics further on should be equipable on weapons and warframes, operators, specters for special effects, on weapons ammo types reflecting their loots quality, so this means that those parazon mods and cards which are locked behind coolant or catalyst will perform special functions in said conditions, at least thats the idea to get players who have many relics  and items to expend them or choose to keep them strong, or use them in conjuncture of the added cells and pickups to make weapons realod or fire hard, fasts, animation changes! fresh experience, the only problem is that we would have to add a few changes to opening those and other relics to maybe spawn a huge monster or boss in a particular area, using the open worlds is a popular open world and MMORPG option, which is great like the eidolon feature. but i think a solo player would like to try their liches and syndicate enemies in unnused map nodes, to unlock new skills and passive for their warframes, aughments, and OPness. per school of focus.

INTRRIGGING each governing lich and their pointless pre-patch content to have reason and ordinances outside of space , maybe some nice kuva characters can apepar in some relays who have escaped the "criminal or regular
"evil precepts" if the players take too long, i mean a rewarding shop with interesting grineer weapons, suits for birds, robotics, operators mods, at the cost of kuva and endo, and some other items, 

say the kuvas can open relics or spawn some weapons at their disposal each kuva has a special power already but its predictable after the players have foguth them and revelived their qualities are no longer masked, they can accertain some powers from each planet such as camuflage, and minions at times borrow from pickups adn energy nodes, or robotics from nearaby cvonsoles to casts thunder magic like a sith-lord, 

While the regular relics, kuva or not can have a cooldown but allow operators some special power to call up if they are equiped, or warframes to gain some interesting passive traits, and weapons get some augments, its not a riven. Its a relic, and that could be the twist to replaying kuva content, doing siphons, and using ur operator, new  amps, new emotes, and lore.

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REALY modified by each hindered planet of said hidden liches and squadron affiliations, usualy a stalker or something is pervaiding the air, but this can be a thunder storm or some thing siimular to the excavators and infested which makes the OUTPOST and RELAYS into interesting COMBAT ZONES where LICHES and other enemy types PER PLANET determine the types of loot and findings, affecting teh nodes and shopping experiences, syndicate bonuses and temporary boosters which are awarded daily.

i think its important that each player gets additional rewards and things like ephemeras, palettes and glyphs if they frequent the shops and participate or redo missions to keep them trying, even if its just failing missions or getting teh same foundry gear, such blueprints could cointain sub data traces and nav coordinates to RARE MODS, or SPECIAL bullets, cosmetics, new attacks for operators to gain new forms, and technologies, not just amps, but melee and movement physica rare, or lackign concepts which can be improved, or how we can aughment or modify regular loot or non-prime equipment and normal warframe "machines" to outperform those who are labelled UMBRA and PRISMA or PRIME without buying a riven, or gaining lich status, syndicate bonuises are part of these visitors and rank access bonuses which can be disperced and customized using standing per bounty and relay area, but the orbiter should also come with a set of unique prospectives, and machined versions, and magical rewards which players who play PVP get, not just log-in rewards. But a whole Military Update.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)Veytok said:

Everything is too easy, lowering the play value and time put into the game 

What?

 

This is truly edge-lord style backwards justification.  If it isn't hard it isn't worth playing?  Do you play warframe?  90% of the game has no real challenge, 9% is enemy scaling creating a challenge via bullet sponges, and 1% is something genuinely challenging which cannot simply be superseded by gear with higher numbers.  That's kind of the bread and butter of a farming simulation, where thousands of things are required to progress.

 

This isn't Ninja Gaiden.

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22 minutes ago, SoulriderPrime said:

@[DE]Rebecca Will the Murmur requirements be reduced at all to help with the grindiness of the Lich system?

I hope that we also have added rewards and loot added to the proccess of collecting kuva or lich missions are horribly boring, there should be some lich themed mods, rivens, and non-tradable or uniques which can aid in participation, replay , and missionr ewards, even if you fail right now the system is RNG and horrible, so with some boosters and special hacks we can make something special workout so that a single relic or another relic can be converted or aughmented, just a few ideas.

i like mur murs, but its really pointless, the siphon is still stupid, operators have no new attacks or abilities to learn, so its all really boring mindless and i dont want to do it until another year or so goes by, its painful, i've had my lich dominating all the planets for over since the update, havent killed it or captured it, and am missing just one RUNE, and its just stealing all my crap, i am looking foward to making it my allie at this point, but i have a few ideas for customizing it and fighting it again under some of those unnused nodes in each planet's gates, or at the dojo, there should be something of a frame fighter addition at least PVP can be hosting these or lunaro with kuva rewards and liches in more interesting places,

as for those kuva weapons, i havent used one, they look awesome, but theres nothing for archwing or heavy users, or operators, pets, amps, so its really designed to piss players off, so i want to wait until further reason to play, no affinity booster can fix this, MADURAI ideas - summon a shield to absorb one attack, but its passive, upgrades target enemies with status effects and paralysis, etc. watever else,KUVA PETS?

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Just gotta write this down before it gets swallowed by the abyss of procrastination.
Nice changes coming to the kuva liches and larvlings. Have to respond to the addition of players being able to see what weapon they will get from their lich if they mercy kill the larvling: the actual solution to the rng people are frustrated with is all good, but the visual implementation is bare-bones, fourth-wall breaking and feels uninspired, imo. There are no doubt better implementations, the one I will describe below included, than to create the ridiculous scene of players kuva lich shopping in the middle of the mission.

Ask yourself this little question: Why are the larvlings there? Why are they just running around a tileset? They are very obviously already subject to conscription into kuva lich transformation attempts, "orrr dieee". Ahem. We already know this, so talking from a lore perspective, what if they would have to show they are capable using and know their way around the kuva weapon they will receive if and when they successfully have transcended into their lich form? What if that is why they are deployed into the field, to struggle carrying around their heavy kuva weapons, with kuva guardians supervising their stay?

W o u l d n ' t   y o u   b e   a b l e   t o   s e e   w h a t   w e a p o n   t h e y   w o u l d   h a v e ?

If you didn't know from the looks and sounds of the weapon in action, then when you've smacked the larvling across the face and they're just sitting there (if not for anything else then to get the reward they were talking about in the devstream) you would see the weapon in their hands. Literally right there in front of you, just not in a squared UI box. The damage type is dependent on the progenitor warframe, so you could even draw lines to the weapon somehow drawing power from the warframe that it first came in close contact with, as it maybe is infused with or influenced by the present kuva. But, I digress. This progenitor frame/kuva weapon dmg type idea aside, surely the idea of having the player actually see the weapon there in the mission is better than having a rinkydink, time-travelling, all knowing window pop up and say what the weapon will be. Solution stays the same but looks better and actually logical. No? Just me?

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Aquiring kuva, anything should give additional emblems, glyphs items, and kit-parts, this means you should get some mods, and customization options to make the next relic more interesting we added . . .robot wielding a giant katana, with amalgams, infested enemies, not just catalyst, excavators another way to feed relics, and datamasses, or spymissions, which trigger any regular or kuva/lich related items you have, so that open world also takes a hit, not just the dominated planets.

BTW kuva is really well hidden and CONFUSING also really unreawarding kill or not rewards from what i seen the best thing is partnering, but that should mean that your kuva has a special pod or its own ship which the players can use to customize the kuva, and ultimately maybe eventually take control of depending the kuva's growth or requirements, i though a few ships would cover the players orbiters in formation, well i got a rail jack but i wanna see my kuva riding something or at least having its own set of duties or chamber, town assets, and relay functions, not just gathering intelligent blueprints, and autographs, or finishing bounties forme , i want alittle more.

picture if the kuva has a daily reward for you, while you were away, it managed to kill or capture a objective, or get some hidden date, depents if its a friend or foe, but this would be annoying to a casual player, so at least you wanna give this option to a place in theorbiter or somewhere near the kuva fortress, moon, cetus, fortuna, and any relay, unless you give ur lich a particular focus or syndicate thing, then at least allow it to equip relics so it can summon other weapons, and grant further rewards, for added functions.

gottago.

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DARVO- 

should house relics and new features for instance a set of bounties and rewards, ranks, and operator bonuses, additional amps and kittens, parts PER PLANET EXCLUSIVE should make sense that each planet relay has its own set of special enemies and mods with set bonuses or augmentations, think archwing, transference, free arcanes, and glyphs as the easy, darvo knows players like fortuna, so give them freeze rays and other items.

additional loot should be related to the kuva lich and siphon projects, clem is cool, but there is no special loot for replaying, u just get a few spctre ninjas which are disposible, but in the right mind, survivors should respawn if you collect enough energy, i mean if you get enough players visiting these relays you can get cleam to have his own set of kitgunshow, and customization to further make his future less than casual, he IS a SoLDIER, so we should think of Clem as a total person who can wield equipment unnused by the operators and warframes, extra gun or so that maybe darvo can help with in single player missions and sologing is popular in FFXIV, but team play and multiplayer is different, there are no offline modes from what i know, not even frame fighter has anything, also darvo has no PVP anything, so thats all Fwi for the future developers who read this to think up of some unlockables or launcher additions, i know we are redoing more UI, and that liches is the main topic of this post, but they should be integrations across the sphere, not just inside a relic or particular planet, these things are like swards stealing and difficult until these changes come, so at least let darvo get some items to sell an occasional kuva mod, or gift, weapon, or powerup.

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I did some math.
They put the following:
A 25% Kuva weapon fused into a 40% Kuva weapon will result in a 44% Kuva Weapon.
A 40% Kuva weapon fused into a 25% Kuva weapon will result in a 44% Kuva Weapon.
A 25% Kuva weapon fused into a 44% Kuva weapon will result in a 48.4% Kuva weapon.

Did the math, and a 40% X 1.1 = 44%. And a 44% X 1.1 = 48.4%. This implies that:
1. A 25% roll counts as a 1.1 multiplier.
2. A 40% roll counts as a 1.76 multiplier.
3. Every weapon infused to increase the bonus roll by larger amounts, and thus you get better returns each time I guess, up until you acquire a 60% roll.

25% X 1.1^n = 60%, n = 10, for a total of 11 Kuva Weapons needed to max out the damage bonus in a worst case scenario
Okay let's make the math even worse.

Capture farm for Kuva Larvlings: c, cycling between 15 weapons means probability of getting desired weapon at time = 6.66%
Worst case weapon roll to get max bonus: 25%X1.1^n=0.6, n=10, for total of 11 weapons
Number of total weapons: 13 current + 2 more revealed tomorrow = 15 weapons
Total number of Weapons/Liches required to get a max roll for every weapon: 11X15 = 165 total weapons
Ephemera chance: 20% chance means approximately 5 Liches to get an Ephemera, 5 liches X 7 ephemeras = approximately 35 Liches to acquire every ephemera
Current approximate requiem murmur amounts needed (liable to change upon patch like every previous patch) 180 / 5 murmurs per R5 Thrall = 36 Thralls / 10 thralls per Kuva Exterminate mission assumed = 4 Kuva Exterminate missions X 200 Liches = 800 Murmur Farm missions
Approximately 165+35=200 total Liches, X 3 drained requiem charges = 600 requiem charges
15 final weapons X 5 Forma = 75 Forma, 15 Catalysts

So to "complete" the Kuva Lich system, you're looking at a possibility of:
165 Kuva Weapons (meaning 165 Liches), possibly 35 Liches to acquire every Ephemera, 800 Murmur Farm Missions, 600 drained Requiem Charges, 15 Catalysts, and 75 Forma, and an **ungodly** amount of Larvings farmed.

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These changes are a good start to making the gameplay of liches less tedious, but are there going to be more changes to make them more personal? Liches currently aren't as much of a "personal enemy" as they are a gun that laughs at you and takes 2-3 hours of murmur farming to build. Are we getting any changes towards making kuva liches more memorable?

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Since these threads get moving pretty fast, and people don't often go back to read previous posts as they keep up to date with new posts, I figured I'd post that I updated my post earlier in the thread with this mock up of something less immersion-breaking than just the floating kuva weapon in a box.

Spoiler

The post is here

The mock up is here:

yqS70kK.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 2020-01-30 at 1:54 AM, Sean said:
  • Have the guesses run through each Parazon Mod spot even on an initial fail

This would be awesome. That’s actually how I thought it would work from the start.

It would actually give you another, more interesting way to deal with your lich. Anything but farming murmurs, please.

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2 hours ago, Disasterchild said:

-Snip-

Primary problem would be making a lich thinking it had X Kuva Weapon that looks like Y Kuva Weapon. Having the Larvaling attack you with their weapon would be cool, but for clarity's sake I think there still should be on screen confirmation for what weapon it'll have one made into a Lich.

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The changes they've proposed... for the lich to just despawn when you fail... are basically no different from the way lich stabbing currently works. The only difference is that you don't die. Who cares? Why is that the point of contention, and how is this literally any better in a game where dying has no real consequence to begin with? Because dying "feels bad"? Failure is still failure, whether you die or not.

If you want to change it so desperately, and maybe make it make more sense... have it kill the lich when you fail, but the lich just comes back. As a lich is an undead thing anyway, it makes sense. It also makes sense within the lore they've created of using the correct sequence of requiem mods to "permanently" end a lich. It also makes sense in relation to the inspiration used to create this system in the first place (Shadow of Mordor/War) where killing an orc was no guarantee that he wouldn't come back later. You still killed the orc. He just respawned.
 

Quote

Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave, leaving your back and dignity intact! There is no longer a failure loop here for the Requiem flow. 



"You thought me ended, adversary? I am reborn!"

"Nice try, adversary... but I am... immortal!"

"You left me for dead. Big mistake by you!"


This would all be better flavor for post-kill transmissions than "haha you lose, peace out!" and having them just run away.

Edited by HomicidalGrouse
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Some thoughts towards getting faster murmurs. Captured targets are important thralls with juicy knowledge of the lich weakness. Getting all info from a spy lich territory nets you ample murmur knowledge of the kuva lich. Or even rescue targets have overheard the kuva lich/thralls talking and get you info too.

Edited by (NSW)Unknownboy92

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7 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

floating kuva weapon in a box.

I KNOW  L O L!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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So my problem with putting "Lich Be Gone" off to the side, maybe to touch them in the future, is that it's so easy for a new player to create a lich without knowing what they are. All you have to do is complete the War Within, and then go into a mission with rank 20 Grineers. Being able to kill a rank 20 Grineer is very easy, you can probably do that with several unmodded weapons. But to deal with your Lich you need to kill Rank 50-110 enemies, and a boss like enemy, and might not even know what a Requiem is. So a woefully unprepared new player could end up creating a lich and not even be able to go Murmur hunting. That's not even including how bad the Requiem grind is, 8 different symbols you have to collect in a new type of Void Relic, which you can only get in Kuva missions or Murmur hunts. The system as is, is just going to confuse players and probably put them off on the game.

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2 hours ago, Grave.Knight said:

-Snip.-

You’re completely right. As a player who somehow made it through the War Within without a properly modded melee or even a max level serration, it’s a problem when an unprepared player creates a lich.

As a stop game measure until we get the ability to dispel a lich however, the community ideally would help out with these cases. It takes 37 R5 Kuva Thralls if I did my math right to acquire all 3 Parazon sequences. If a new player were carried on a Thrall Hunt, they could acquire all the needed murmurs in the course of an hour at most. In addition, Kuva Lich hunters should be acquiring more requiem mods than they use up, so loaning some to a newbie couldn’t hurt that badly. So like everything in this game, relying on the community to solve new player experience problems.

Until we acquire Dispel Lich at level 9, cough, at least.

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I went through 50+ liches and sit on six ephemeras. The changes seems great to me especially  larvling having preview of a weapon, since i  have few in mind what might forma and new upgrade / fusion system is great i can burn all the bad low % weapons that sit in my foundry. 

I just don't get how the removing bane snap from lich suppose to be "better" do people really bothered so much about being yeeted, you do have four or six revives per mission. I did saw so many people who just refuse stab their lich mid mission which preventing other people to get their spawned  it's just annoying, i assume they are too weak to deal with lvl 5 lich ?

Lich dispel can be useful for people who are  incapable of dealing  with their lich, but since DE said it's not a priority - 

Implement "convert yes / no " box when you stab larvling , similar to one you get when you about to forma or about to sell something etc, because the very very first lich i made was on accident, yes there's kuva guard message show up that larvling about to be spawned but people don't pay attention to that very much or basically don't know what that is. 

Another thing - NPC which will guide you how to deal with lich, get it in is simply just have a one time message in your inbox from this npc "you got that thing, come visit me",  would be nice for a new players, people need to know they need to stab it, people need to know lich spawns thrals when  appears in the mission and there's enemy around so letting him make thrals on top of what you already got is good for player. People need to know that downing lich four times  without stabbing him will force him to leave. 

 

Ah and what was said yesterday on stream - more powerful liches who you converted is very positive change, thanks for that. I do like having my ephemera liches  visit mission but they always was lack-lasting. 

 

Also khora delux when. 

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1. The Kuva Larvling should just carry and use the weapon.

2. The Kuva Larvling, when downed, should float and glow for better visibility, so the player can't miss it. 

3. The Kuva Weapon should float beside the Kuva Larvling, for the player to see the weapon, rather than a 2D billboard. 

4. The Player could apply a Parazon finisher on the Weapon, to indicate he does not want it, destroying/dismissing it. Or to the Larvling, to create the Kuva Lich. 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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I have some (~15) converted liches with "trash" weapons and i really would like an option to somehow "kill" those liches and use those weapons for upgrading existing non-pefrect weapons i have with Valence changes.

Also i dont think lich spine snap was bad, hope new failure animation will feel "impactful".

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