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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

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Whatever y'all do, keep the labeled picture of the larvaling's Kuva Weapon just like it is. In fact, make it bigger. 

1. That will result in far fewer people saying "I didn't mean to get that weapon" AND far fewer bittervets saying "you should suffer for your mistake" to them. 

2. We all marched for justice in Pablo's thread demanding clear information and labels in our UI.

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5 hours ago, spicyframe420 said:

Another thing - NPC which will guide you how to deal with lich, get it in is simply just have a one time message in your inbox from this npc "you got that thing, come visit me",  would be nice for a new players, people need to know they need to stab it, people need to know lich spawns thrals when  appears in the mission and there's enemy around so letting him make thrals on top of what you already got is good for player. People need to know that downing lich four times  without stabbing him will force him to leave. 

There’s already a tutorial box in the screen where your Kuva Lich is present that offers an explanation of most of the Lich stuff.

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A "little" suggestion about Kuva Larving execution could be to give a more active choice to the player : have an execution choice as the Lich one, but instead of the vanquish/convert, player could have a weapon choice between 2 possibilities, and a 3rd choice for sparing the Larva.

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1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

2. We all marched for justice in Pablo's thread demanding clear information and labels in our UI.

Fair point.

Yep. Keep the labels and blown up image of what it is. I still think it's better if there's some kind of explanation for that label (eg. have Ordis/Simaris/Suda/some other scanny-type character scan the victim and mention it, as someone suggested earlier in the thread), but yes. Label good.

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So... in other words, you're removing the most negative aspects of the kuva lich, but you're fixing it with grind grind grind?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for these changes, but after playing Middle-Earth: Shadow of War for the past month, I'm absolutely disappointed in the entirety of the kuva lich system, and now the direction you're taking it.

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On 2020-01-29 at 11:49 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:


Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:

  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

This is RNG % is very bad

Dreams dreams 😧

57-60% is around  farm from 50-100 Kuva Boss  Good Luck. I have in my codex 104

and tnx DE for remove  parazon stones with  combinations

Edited by BDT_Flames

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On 2020-01-29 at 4:49 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

You can expect the Chance of a Lich having an Ephemera to double. 

My goal is to offer some interesting expansions to the lich system so that they are not just humanoids, they can form armies, mutate, or have robotic arms, overshields, and auras, carry many mods, and have weird looking freaky features which can mean different mods and loot types, archwing, and operator unlockables, glyphs and achievements are based on the type of monster / kuva siphon changes should be more fun and rewarding, this can mean that more broken weapons, kitguns, and reasons to visit the kuvafortress are added, with keys and music, changes to the levels which are captured, and objective bonuses,

the failiure rates are really high,

CONS & PROs / IDEAS / BRAINSTORM

  • Make all kuva give temporary boosters, affinity without lenses, melee, kuva should deal unique damage types and have other powers.

encounters more rewarding without requiring a kill or completion a list of other rewards and fixes should reflect your affinity with the kuva per mission and planet, i think there can be more changes to the captured planets, visuals, soudns, animations, so the contents stolen appear in chests modified or extractors, and other helping hands, i think the ephemeral is alittle bit of a heavy emphasys, it should have just been given to the player right away on their first try without crafting requirements, But it could have a growth system and streghtened with passive traits, goals, and the foundry version as its augmented and duplicated, to change in the different lights and give some bonuses, maybe you have kuva music for combat or something interesting on transferense in / out, while with kuva or while fighting other kuvas, the chances are higher at other non - traditional loot for the operators to get special accesores, weapon aughments, mods, and unlockables, am thinking added robotics, and kit-guns, or parts for excavators and machine will open a world for liches to be hunted or purpuse, if they have keys to some machines to start up bounties, and summon larger badguys or call up a shipment of heavy weapons, crates, keys, and locked boxes in which a few tenno or resources have been contained or frozen like the other missions might be more exciting than just killing a larvae, and summoning a leech, its parasites and infested pathogens, and unique states of mind are too singular forming a regular follower with vulnerabilities which can be destroyed, so its fair to see robots and other types of leech or sub creatures gain these types of upgrades, modes, and mods before they are turned into a monster, boss or lich.

Those are the realistic posibilities which open up schools and focus / polarities and mod benchers to investigate and travel to each planet for things to unlock for their operators and syndicates know a few men can help, so the players are given rations, operatives and bodyguard to help with the lich procedure, mean while the larvae have expanded across other mission types, nodes, and openworld bounties, or not, they could just be fishing and minning but have robots and other aquisitive loot, or treasure they have managed to gain standing in their shadow clans, that instead of weapons players can get notes and lore, and learn some new attacks, but a few melee fighters have stances improved by facing different types of enemies, paths, and focuses added to their quests logs to keep bounties moving, each should house some dark items, keys, unshockable for the operators, weapons, and archwing.

LOOT AND LEECH CHANGES:

  • glyphs, or mutants, noxes, even if u cant kill it, you get a few mods, and archwing parts, broken keys, relics, and parazon upgrades, and focus points or syndicate upgrades.
  • lenses deal additional damage and build charges that can be released during slide attack, reload, and jump attacks like the magic "Ruin" from final fantasy games for blocking and ducking, burst exodia i think does something simuar can be added to kuva cannons, and passive traits for operators and warframes later.
  • its important that kuva are allowed to see archwing and heavy weapons, i think kuva have low shields, and the egg babies can also become enlightened.
  • smaller lich / mini lich, infested or mutated liches,
  •  robot lich with metallic limbs or larvae are a few examples that can mean there is a sahagin or a archwing or rocket launcher boss in the plains with many shields and supplies,
  • a spider lich idea came to me when watching the Leprechauns in space movie.

Playlist and music for the kuva start chart, territory nodes bonus loot revelent to planet, aughments, focus branches, syndicate escorts, and treasure include spectre in combat, and other help, or at least some options,

  • so far the loot and lich process is long and painful with the guns and ephemeral out of the picture is seems sou-less to require farming runes, and boats with two open worlds, open a relic with REALLY BAD REWARDS, bad mission rewards, bad drops, bad loot, regular enemies, repetitive siphons, void traces spent, high chances at failing and no guarantees,

the murmurs i really like, but the

archwing rewards, ship and orbiter components and heavy weapons are greater higher end rewards for high level players, so maybe taht vandal weapons or amps be added for these fights, and proccess, if helping a syndicate who' have lich issues rewards you with a new set of modified ability for your operator guaranteed, that you get a path open

during the kuva process, each syndicate will open up focus schools and arms to the operator outside of reguar RANKS your operator should gain a few new melee attacks, movements, and abilities to use, beyond teh amps and crafting, we need to make sure taht the focus schools and lense system is enhanced and simplified for new players, so kuva fights, sipons and lichis not jsut scary thing to do,

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On 2020-01-29 at 5:03 PM, LuckyCharm said:

Hmm, its still. No from me. The grinding for rng based cards over and over from the relics already has soured it for me, and its still grind, on grind, on grind. Im not seeing anything to fix that part that has me and probably a lot of others turned off

Same here. These are all very welcome changes, but unless they start adding some very unique/powerful items as rewards, it's still not worth the grind.

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1 час назад, Ailith сказал:

Same here. These are all very welcome changes, but unless they start adding some very unique/powerful items as rewards, it's still not worth the grind.

Theres no reason to ask for "powerful items" because they will get nerfed into oblivion within months. Especially weapons.

Weapons in warframes are currently all but useless unless you do very specific things like Index or Eidolon.

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Thanks!

REALLY GREAT changes, all this will put liches in a stable spot from where they can develop and grow. Maybe liches can even have a "second coming" at some point, where they are allowed to become a real personal nemesis. That idea was and still is great, but as the "lich discussions" has shown the "community" wasn't really ready for it. Now that we have baby liches in place (to satisfy everyone) there might be a possibility for some real nasty ones.

Just wish it was this easy to fix the toxic "want everything served easy and now"-crowd complaining about everything. As an example, the total ridiculousness of first getting access to multiple selectable and powerful rank 40 weapons, that are completely optional to get, and then using this new possibility to demand that the weapons should be free to upgrade because it is "too hard" to grind 5 forma together just blows my mind. And forma is something you can even buy. Seriously...

Since it seems (from the examples) that Valence Fusion now works regardless of which weapon is the "first", is the idea that the status ending up on the "valenced" weapon is determined by the order. If not, this would be an easy way for allowing players to select which of the two status effects that ends up on the new weapon. Forma level, slots and polarities comes from the "higher" one and status percentage is now a mathematical function. If the status would be determined by the "second" weapon (or the "first", doesn't matter) players would hold all the necessary cards for fixing/maximizing their weapon. Such a system would then also work for changing the status on an already maxed-out 60% status, as "valencing" the maxed weapon with another would keep level, slots and polarities but switch status according to a "last weapon in"-rule. Or "first in", doesn't matter as long as the player can determine the final status by choosing in which the order the weapons are "valenced" together.

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On 2020-01-30 at 6:00 AM, Godzilla853 said:

what about the 5 forma per weapon for all of the kuva weapons that seems a bit extreme when they do not get a buff like the paracesis. Maybe make them do extra damage to grineer with with each forma we put in. 

Agreed, the number of thralls to be killed is still way too much. Perhaps lowering the amount needed, adding "special thralls" that carry intel (which could be entire murmurs or just small pieces) like the way "worms" are interrogated in Shadow of War, to give weaknesses of the commanders. Or even having pickups in mission to give extra murmurs. 

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4 hours ago, DaLegends said:

Agreed, the number of thralls to be killed is still way too much. Perhaps lowering the amount needed, adding "special thralls" that carry intel (which could be entire murmurs or just small pieces) like the way "worms" are interrogated in Shadow of War, to give weaknesses of the commanders. Or even having pickups in mission to give extra murmurs. 

That grind is the biggest remaining issue: it still takes something like 180 murmurs to get it done and there's still the roulette wheel part.

I'm all about halving the number of murmurs and putting some mystery into it - connect intel to the stanzas on the requiem mods or something.

Let us puzzle it out to the right order (in fact, make us get the right order before we can even try -- have the lich slap away our pitiful mercy attempt if we don't know it, and laugh in our faces). 

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12 hours ago, Ailith said:

Same here. These are all very welcome changes, but unless they start adding some very unique/powerful items as rewards, it's still not worth the grind.

One of the new Kuva weapons coming next update is a Kulstar/Lenz hybrid. A bow the fires an explosive arrow and clusters out for even more AoE damage. From what they showed unmodded, it was pretty powerful. If that ‘ain’t worth grinding for, I don’t know what is haha

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as someone that did 37 liches to get all the weapons, and ended up with 1 ephemeral, this is pointless to me... just thought i would say that. Because of how you do these things, even the tons of dupes i had are wasted now. but whatever, i will only ever do this system again to get new weapons, and i will probably do it in a way upsets people knowing my luck.

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I have seen reports of inexperienced players using Parazon against Kuva Larvling and fighting undesired.
The current Kuva Lich trigger is included in the normal mission.
Can DE spawn Kuva Larvling through quests or NPC's talk?
The game needs to explain Kuva Lich to the players and give them time and choice.
And need the option to abandon the fight for exhausted players.

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Let me pitch an idea that would add just a little bit more sentimental value into the whole Lich system: Converted Companions. As they are now in the current environment, converted Liches only serve two purposes. They either occasionally spawn in a mission & assist you for a limited period of time, or they're traded away & treated like cannon fodder. Adding them as companions, you would grant the player the opportunity to have an ally with firepower that rivals your own. What makes them particularly interesting as a companion option would be the range of customization: from being able to adjust their weapons, abilities, armor, overall appearance, personality & being able to change their name if it were to go that far. If the system were to be implemented, it would be applicable to any & all faction "Liches", granting us a variety of options similar to the beast & robots we currently have.

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Something that part 3 of this workshop needs to address imo is more connection. There needs to be a more passive approaches to the Kuva lich alongside thrall farming. 

 

Why doesn’t our lich dare to appear outside of lich nodes and why can’t they send thrall assassination squads like every single syndicate does?

 

railjack integration might give another avenue to deal with liches But imo they need to be more of an active threat. As it is now you can just step over the big red territory line and the lich will never even touch you.  

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i'll shamelessly repost from old closed topic:

Why not making the KUVA lich system connected to KUVA? Make it that it's only in Kuva Fortress. Possibly with Larva spawning in Kuva Survival only. And add 3rd option for defeated Lich - Syphon Kuva - to make it a way of farming kuva outside of normal Kuva missions. This would possibly solve 3 things - newbies starting Lich without knowing the difficulty, lack of players doing the Lich nodes (as all would do it on Kuva Fortress) and a reason to do Lich other then weapon. At top of that it would make sense that the Kuva Lich would be there and have an high level greneer army. Lore wise that would make much more sense. 

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Oh, and you'll have these changes live by 9:00 a.m. Eastern tomorrow, right? Tick tock tick tock. 😄

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I feel like the back breaking is not a deterrent to the experience but an add on to the lore and growth of the Lich themselves, as it makes sense for them to become stronger and stronger by being able to kill you however many times they manage to do so instead of just mocking you for not killing them and somehow becoming stronger, also to point out that liches are supposed to be The Frame killers, they were supposed to be the absolute enemy of frames, and now you say you don't want to be killed by the ones made to do so. From a gameplay perspective, this also removes consequence from our actions, making the fight lose the stakes it used to have. as they are before this update, when you have all 3 mods, but don't know the order, you feel tension before the fight and during it, you feel exactly how a being made to kill you would make you feel, like there is an actual consequence to failing to get the sequence right. Now it might just be easier to brute force the sequence instead of farming the murmurs and actually playing as it was intended to, since you lose nothing by brute forcing it, but you lose your time by actually sticking with how it would be done in game, taking the information from the thralls and slowly learning what will kill your Lich.

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I'd say there's two sides to that. Personally, I don't experience any tension about a failed sequence. If I get it right, yay, but if I get it wrong, it's like "Wait for the cutscene, spend 1 revive."

There's no set up ahead of time that makes the lich a real enemy, so you - or at least I - don't feel much win or lose. The current mechanic doesn't do anything to make the Lich an enemy that pisses you off. It's just a Grustrag One visiting with a couple one-liners. 

Tl;dr - losing a revive isn't really very high stakes. If you failed the mission for failing a sequence, or the lich stole one of your equipped weapons or something -- that's different. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe

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13 liches down and:

I kind of like the Larvling option it's the small ray of hope in this primary addition of new grind on top of the old grind, so:

Larvling: Addition of grind
Lich : Same amount of boring grind, but possibly less often due to larvling choices.
Valance Tsfr: Insane amounts of extra boring grind for minimal results.
Kuva Weapons: Same amount of boring grind for minuscule result. Effectively maxing out 6 full weapons for the gain of 1000MR points.
Wasting Forma: Average 3 forma to max out mod capacity on a weapon that's not competitive in the first place. I'd rather just have somewhere to swap excess forma for 200MR Each thanks.
Requiem Mods: I can not believe you were even remotely serious about adding in an Ayatan Amber Star. 100 void traces for an Ayatan Star! That is just INSULTING.
Lets do some math on that. Assuming a relic capture mission (absolute hands down fastest there is), average time 2:30s. We'll be generous and say an average of 12 void traces per mission. 100 void traces will take 9 runs, so with loading and all we'll again be generous and say 30 min. 15 to 20 minutes to run the requiem relic (there is no speed run option) and I've just wasted the better part of an hour to get an Amber Star. To put my frustration in context: I have been 'rewarded' with more amber stars than I have mods.

Finally, Being able to transmute empty mods is mildly sanity restoring. Also it seems that the Murmers are dropping more relics recently so that is cutting out some of the grind.

I think you need to realize that the addition of grind for grinds sake is not, in any way shape or form, content.

Thanks for your time.

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The punishments you're proposing seem too harsh, I'm gonna speak mainly on losing your weapon, say , you're a more casual player, you have your single, high power gun, you play alone, you miss the sequence, your only weapon gets taken...what now?

You end up with no means of actually dealing with the lich, and sure this maybe isn't a very general issue but nevertheless will affect someone in a negative way.

3 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

I'd say there's two sides to that. Personally, I don't experience any tension about a failed sequence. If I get it right, yay, but if I get it wrong, it's like "Wait for the cutscene, spend 1 revive."

There's no set up ahead of time that makes the lich a real enemy, so you - or at least I - don't feel much win or lose. The current mechanic doesn't do anything to make the Lich an enemy that pisses you off. It's just a Grustrag One visiting with a couple one-liners. 

Tl;dr - losing a revive isn't really very high stakes. If you failed the mission for failing a sequence, or the lich stole one of your equipped weapons or something -- that's different. 

 

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14 hours ago, (PS4)DidelphisV said:

One of the new Kuva weapons coming next update is a Kulstar/Lenz hybrid. A bow the fires an explosive arrow and clusters out for even more AoE damage. From what they showed unmodded, it was pretty powerful. If that ‘ain’t worth grinding for, I don’t know what is haha

While it looks powerful, the number of self-inflicted deaths that would have happened if not for devmode tells me that it's going to be ridiculously impractical.

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