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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

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8 minutes ago, Invitare said:

Make it possible to reclaim stolen resources without going through the whole process of defeating the Lich proper and finally, have Liches spawn at any point in the game. Yes, even before War Within; It's not spoilers, it's foreshadowing, something the narrative of Warframe frankly needs a lot more of anyway. Obviously, pre-TWW players would not be able to actually do Lich missions, but just having this single character, with them for most of the game, randomly showing up to fight them, would be a great experience.

That's an amazing idea, if executed properly. And I think, as the system is right now, they could pull it off, as far as Larvling Kills go. None of the dialogue explains what the Kuva Liches are, or how they're coming back to life.

Although, if we're being entirely honest about the state of the story, it feels like they didn't have one until incredibly late into the game's development (probably because they didn't.) Some nice foreshadowing like this would add some good cohesion which would make the story feel more like it's all meant to be (kind of like how in The New Strange we hear the first mention of the "Womb of the Sky" only to learn what that is later in The Second Dream) but really what it needs is more elaboration. We need details, and personalities for the characters, and maybe an actual explanation as to why we're doing the things we're doing, like planet-specific story quests, similar to the Natah Quest, where the implicit final objective was to finish the Uranus Assassination mission. Really, Uranus is my favorite planet, not because of sharkwing, but because of how it was handled. The boss can be taken seriously, and feel important, and the Sabotage mission feels cohesive with the Assassination, which would be nice for all of the missions on all of the planets and more immersive for new players. Maybe generic missions could stay, but the planet-specific mini-quests could just be replayable? That would work. But I'm afraid it might be too late to change all of that.

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Wow this sounds dumb. 

It's like you don't want to make it fun to hunt liches. 

If we were able to ditch the lich we still have to kill, what like 13 individual liches. Aside from that. If every lich would spawn the ephemera at a 100% and only by converting would we get it, it would still mean we would have to do it 26 times in total. 

That's ENOUGH. 

The way Warframe is progressing so far it will load itself up in that railjack slingshot and propel itself into meaninglessniss. 

Same goes for that RNG mess inside Railjack. LET PEOPLE WORK FOR NICE STUFF AND NOT GET LUCKY! OMFG... 

Look at the feedback for the new anomaly shards. 1000% more positive than anything you changed recently with anything. How about you learn from it? That'd be too easy right? 

 

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1 hour ago, Lizux said:

I am the only one that like the fact that they kill us on a wrong attempt? For once we got our a$$ kicked , tbh to me it was a good idea. I feel like some people have too much ego to complain about this death mecanic like really

I feel like this game is on the path to just being watered down after every forum tantrum. 

We went from getting our back broken to the Liche going "tee-hee" and running away. 

Now I'm not saying it was perfectly implemented. But the general idea of us getting our butts kicked should've been expanded on, not completely abandoned.

Edited by Hypernaut1

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2 hours ago, Abraxas said:

C'mon, guys. Please, do something about grinding murmurs. It gets old after managing to do the first Lich...

Also, the forma sink and forced repetition to level the weapon to the max is a bit too much.

 

Sorry for the negativity. I was just hoping that these two aspects wouldn't get ignored...

100% agree, im fine with it for quest weapons but for lich weapons nah

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I do like that the back breaking is gone and that we get a sort of choice when it comes to the weapon. But my main issue is with the amount of murmurs I have to get before I get a chance at him. I don't have the best mods and best warframes even though I'm mr 18 and sometimes struggle with the missions. It's a real effort to get myself to grind through a few hours of missions just to maybe be able to get to my lich. I'm also in college and really do not have this much time to spend on the game. If the murmur system would get cut down drastically in terms of how much time it takes to get them, a way to balance it would be to give lower rolled weapons so that we'd have to get another one to infuse for a stronger weapon.

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I like the idea behind these changes, but I've got a few issues with it. 

First of all, the "choosing your weapon" thing:

Dont get me wrong, I like the idea of having more control over it so you don't end up with several duplicate weapons. The original addition of never receiving the same weapon twice in a row was good, but this seems TOO picky. While I don't like the huge amount of grind in Warframe lately, I also appreciate having to actually work for my rewards and I understand that everyone feels different about how much grind-vs-reward we should have, but I doubt this will resolve any of the grind it just shortens it. 

Let's look at it another way, the Larvlings are still entirely RNG, so it's entirely possible you could get repeats of the same weapons you have MANY times before finding the one you want. The only difference with this change would be that rather than having to kill/convert a Loch every time, it's just basic mission. Yes, this makes it a lot easier, but RNG is still RNG, and there are going to be cases where people are after 1 specific weapon to finish their Kuva collection and have to run tens, if not hundreds, of missions just to get the right roll for that weapon. 

I propose that instead of doing this, the RNG is shifted to favour new weapons over existing ones. You can still implement this system, but change the RNG so that any Kuva weapons you own are HEAVILY reduced chances, up until the point where you own every Kuva variant, where it returns to even chances across the board. Also, I know the screenshot is a WIP, but it looks kinda ugly to be honest with you and I don't feel like it really fits into the game. Maybe make it still visible, but more subtle, like having the Larvlings USE the weapon they're going to have in its base form, so if a Lich would have a Kuva Ogris, the Larvling will use a standard Ogris, etc. 

Secondly, please dont remove the counter-attack animation when you fail the requiem. By all means, make it so it isn't an insta-kill, that's kind of annoying, but I like the feeling of failure when your Warframe is snapped over the Lich's knee, or thrown like a Javlok. Just make it deal damage, maybe even a percentage if you don't want it EVER be fatal (i.e. 50% of your current health). I want to feel threatened by the Liches, even if their actual threat is fairly trivial...

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Something that I haven’t heard enough of is the fact that liches need to have more personality variety. They are utterly and completely soulless with only 2 personality types. Why can’t we have a female lich with a brick for a brain or a male lich that talks about chemistry or speaks only in rhymes?

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

rather than not fixing the core loop and just <slapping on a bandaid>, we intend to focus on the core loop first.

*Distant Kela arena cheering*

I wholeheartedly support this approach, and would love to see it adopted/applied more broadly.

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I feel like if possible, rather than the lich laughing and running away, shouldn't their story dictate that they do DIE when we kill them, but it doesn't break whatever keeps them alive?

I feel like on an attempted kill, the lich should double in level and start leaking energy as it "half dies" so you actually have to run away from it while it disintegrates and screams stuff like  THIS ISNT THE LAST YOU'LL SEE OF MEEEE or whatever, as if an improper kill causes them to leak kuva energy or something.

but a proper kill cleanly severs the link and you can, as usual, free them from this mortal coil, or free them from the queens

this way, you do kill the kuva lich a lot just like they say in the story, but it's still dangerous to the player if they're not careful while the lich is "dying"

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2 main things I love about this:

- seeing what weapon they will have up front. i did not expect something this convenient, but I'll take it! it's great knowing now which Liches are worth dealing with! adding a couple other weapons as well gives people with all the weapons a reason to go back too!

- double ephemera chances. I've never had one, in the 15 or so Liches I've fought. would also be nice if the Larvling told you what Ephemera it's Lich would have, or maybe let the Larvling spawn with the Ephemera! (it would make them look much more unique than the regular Grineer, and decrease the chance of an accidental stab for new players.)

I look forward to when this hits console, and can't wait to see what those 2 new weapons will be!

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2 hours ago, JordieBG said:

Will we also see the avaliable ephemera a lich has next to the weapon icon?

I don't think they will do that. They probably still want some mystery elements to the liches and also what point would there be in lich trading if you could just keep rolling a lich until you get the ephemera. 

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Don't forget about the huge amount of thralls needed, and kuva liches having no advantage leveling up to higher lvls, other than being a pain.
 

Second, some people still want to "delete lich" button. Just because it's useful to minmaxer doesn't mean they won't take the button. That's backwards logic.

Lastly, please more varied personality and voice lines ... Up to now I either get a clownish and funny Male, or a boring, Soldier like female that have a stick shoved so deep up their void hole that it's sticking out by their mouth.

 

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I like the changes in general, but wouldn't a more elegant solution (for us, probably not for you) be to have the Larvling wielding the weapon they will use as a Lich? As in, the Larvling spawns with the Shildeg in her hand trying to kill you with it, and if you turn that Larvling into a Lich that Lich will have the Kuva Shildeg

I had the same idea, this would be much better than the screenshot as it doesn't almost "break the 4th wall", but still let's you see what they'll have.

Also, standard version of the Shildeg when? I know it's kinda obsolete since the Kuva version exists and would be better in every way, but I'd still like it to exist if only for continuity... 

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Are you able to add more missions that involve our Liches? Like are there going to be special Kuva Lich Bounties when they invade Cetus, for example? Also, can you please please PLEASE exempt special missions (Sorties, Arbitrations, and Gift of the Louts Alerts) from getting taxed by Kuva Liches? I have had multiple Rivens taken by my Lich 🤮.

Edited by Andrew7811
Wrong forum post. Feedback wanted here

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Please remove the additional thrall missions and integrate them into normal missions. Thralls should spawn in normal missions, there should not be a separate mission for every node.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Valence Transfer Infusion

  • First introduced in 26.0.6, Valence Transfer was designed to address owning duplicate Kuva weapons with different unique innate damage bonuses. Giving you the ability to replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus (plus investments like Forma, Focus Lens etc) with one from another Kuva weapon was a good start, but we can push this even further!

    Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

So if I understood this right it goes like this:

Example 1: You sacrifice the smaller one to give a 10% boost to the better version. The 10% increase is based upon the current number. In this case 10% of 40 is 4, therefore the end result is 40+4 = 44%

Example 2: The higher number becomes the reference and gets a 10% boost. Therefore 40+4 = 44%.

Which means that in example 1 it would take 5 lesser duplicates to reach 60%, it will take fewer if you suddenly get a 54% on the second try, in which case it would require only 3 duplicates.

If you get a 25% on the first try it would take at most 9 lesser duplicates to reach 60%. But because you got the worst roll there's a good chance you will suddenly get a much higher number later (if the chances are equal for each percentage) 

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Just now, ElKayJae said:

Please remove the additional thrall missions and integrate them into normal missions. Thralls should spawn in normal missions, there should not be a separate mission for every node.

This may cause a lot of trouble if your lich is lvl5. Enemies would be lvl110 and might disrupt too much some farming spots. Imagine getting lvl110 enemies on Hydron. Not a fun experience.

Edited by HolySeraphin

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lich 1.1: Dev Workshop + ETA:
 

 

 

Breaking Your Back for Knowledge

  • Your Kuva Lich will no longer kill you when you fail a Requiem guess, nor will they attempt to break your back. The Parazon stabbing animation will play but the UI will show whether it was a success or failure. Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave, leaving your back and dignity intact! There is no longer a failure loop here for the Requiem flow. 

 

Meh.
Now I've lost all hope that this Kuva Lich thing will be any fun or challenging. With this "change", the player won't magically die because he couldn't guess random requiems....but also won't fix the underlying problem, which is this awful requiem system to begin with.
Kuva Lich still won't be a menace that should be constantly hunting you and pose an actual threat. He will remain a minor nuisance which can only be randomly dealt with. Boring. 
You guys should rethink the entire thing instead of trying to make should bad a tiny bit less awful.

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Personally, I would like it if you kept the back breaking sequence in the game. It made it feel like your lich was able to overpower you when you didn't have the correct combination and changing it to our lich simply laughing at us wouldn't have the same effect IMO. But I do agree that you should remove the forced death mechanic and maybe make it to where our warframe is stunned for a bit after getting our back snapped.

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)SylvaPsycho said:

Also, standard version of the Shildeg when? I know it's kinda obsolete since the Kuva version exists and would be better in every way, but I'd still like it to exist if only for continuity... 

Agreed, I hate it when they release a Prime (and now Kuva) version of something that didn't exist. Euphona Regular and Dakra Regular would cure our OCD

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave

This is nice and all but why can't it just "kill" the lich in-mission but fail to kill them permanently?

Most of the dialogue liches have imply that you brutally kill them, dismember them and worse but and they come back stronger, some lines directly say this yet aside from the initial larvaling they don't die again until you learn their words. Is leaves the entire system feeling half-baked and the voice lines out of place. It would make sense to just change the fail animation to the larvaling death one and BAM suddenly all of the lore implications and dialogue make sense.

One tiny change and everyone shuts up about how they're not really liches. It doesn't change how liches work, its a superficial thing that would just make sense.

Edited by xcrimsonlegendx

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

2 more Weapons entering the Kuva Fold!

Is it time for the Kuva Stug!?

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Quote

What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’

The one thing I cared about! Thanks DE!

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3 hours ago, Abraxas said:

C'mon, guys. Please, do something about grinding murmurs. It gets old after managing to do the first Lich...

Also, the forma sink and forced repetition to level the weapon to the max is a bit too much.

 

Sorry for the negativity. I was just hoping that these two aspects wouldn't get ignored...

At the very least i can be glad they fixed the critical issues on why people did not like the murmur grind:

  1. Showing the weapon BEFORE you spawn the damn lich.
  2. Allowing Dupes to ALWAYS have potential by boosting the weapon getting the infusion by 10%, even if the weapon has a lower value then it. Which basically means one could likely only take 5 or even less dupes to infuse into to get what you want.

These 2 choices, thank fking god they did, Pretty much means its quite easy to chase specific weapons, simply massacre a exterminate in solo, have the thrall show up, down it, if it aint the weapon you want. Reload and instead of taking a few hours to get a new one, it only took what could be less then 5 minutes.

Now will it maybe make me want to farm liches? MAYBE, but only for the weapons i still like the best. Just you can`t `convert` a lich into a token if you had to kill it for the weapon, so that kind of puts a loop contradiction of whether to keep rerolling the dice for a higher roll or just chase copies to infuse for those 10% guranteed bonuses possible chance to get something of higher value then yours.

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