Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™ PART 2

[MobyTheDuck]

Good changes, but please do take a look at murmur gain or at least increase the Lich spawns.

Gathering murmur is the part that makes Liches INCREDIBLY boring and Liches dont spawn enough for you to try new combinations before you fill all 3 murmurs.

[General-Pacman]

Thanks for this, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

However, i really need to ask: why are you still hiding the ephemeras behind RNG? You literally just dropped an update adressing that very same issue with the tenebrous ephemera. Could we have something similar here? For example, each lich could drop a token after being vanquished/converted, and then we could trade a certain amount of those tokens for the ephemeras.

[MokutoBunshi]

All good things. Many improvements. 

 

Back breaking was humiliating (and hilarious) but I think it should have been reserved for a lich fight and not a finisher move in a hunt. For example, if you fight a litch in its lair/ship it gives the impression of 'this is a tough fight' and not: 'dang, its time to lose again...' In the first example, you will get your chance to break THEM in the SAME FIGHT. I think thats the difference here. Wining the fight right of in the first example is like a 1 in 8×7×6= 336 chance. So its like the OPPOSITE of the hero moments you put into the orb mothers, because theres no skill expression in those odds...

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Converted Liches will stay longer, do more damage, and actually use their abilities!

Really wish we can get a beacon or something to call them when we need it since converted liches seem to show up way after you need their help

[Vizer_Xeno]

Nice idea for change DE, but don't forget your multilayer RNG is still one big reason i still ill to replay this content especially for finding requiem relics (random get & only get 1) & crack it open (most reward beside Riven Sliver & Requiem Mods are useless). Can your remove this two activity (RNG involving) from Kuva Lich content entirely & make both Riven Sliver, Requiem Mods drop from Kuva Thralls only when player do mercy kill on them? Because if you can do that this will make Kuva Lich more fun & have more replay value than the current we have now.

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

Now if only the T5 relics had Forma on them instead of the Ayatan stars, I could actually farm T5 fissures, too, in order to get the Formas necessary to rank up my Kuva weapons... Besides that, nice changes. If they come to console someday, I'm willing to do those missions again. Right now, it's kind of a waste of time (especially the murmur grind for a low roll duplicate). Alternative ways to gain murmur would be appreciated, though. Also, please keep the back breaker animation on a failed attempt, it was the only thing, that made the Lich somewhat threatening.

[Volrind]

I'm probably one of very rare people who will miss the spine wrecking lich animation. I actually find it entertaining to witness.

[PlanckZero]

"What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’"

For #*!% sake... just do it already okay? Is it really that hard or are you trying to stick to some illusion of realism when you're literally putting a bubble over the larvaling of what weapon they dream of killing us with?

I've been sitting on the same kuva lich for over two months now, I just stopped caring because after forty attempts it was another lich with a weapon I'd never use and no ephemera that I had zero incentive for killing aside from starting the entire mind numbing process all over again with. Now if I want to try out this "updated" system I have to kill them anyway and still get nothingout of it but the wasted evening.

Just do it. Make it a one day, two day or even one week cooldown.Just do it. Make it cost millions of credits to pay the lich off or pay some imaginary bounty hunter to kill them for us. Just do it.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

2 hours ago, KArchangel said:

I’m screwed out of Venus at rank 7

What do you mean by this? As long as you just do the regular missions, the Lich will only take like 10% of your rewards - which you can get back when you finally do kill it.

 

[PollexMessier]

3 hours ago, (PS4)LoneWolf_001 said:

I like all the above!

However, are you planning on adding more damage types to the RNG? Impact and Magnetic are kinda sad "bonuses." I'd also be up for a random gimmick to make them a bit more unique.

I look forward to the update.

The damage types aren't rng, you can pick them based on what warframe you kill the larva with. The available damages were picked to avoid making the litch weapons overpowered as much as possible. Having viral, corrosive, gas, or slash added as options would be unbelievably powerful. The current element options are good cus they make you think a bit harder about what you want to work with. If anything impact and magetic should just be removed as options because of just how worthless they are and essentially being traps for players that don't know about how it works, and radiation might be a bit too powerful to leave in. I don't think any physical damage or dual element damage should've ever been included, just the 4 base elements. Especially since in most cases you can come up with a decent build with any one of those. Cold can get you a viral build, electric can got to corrosive or radiation, toxin to any of it's dual stats, and heat is good by itself or in radiation or gas. That way none of the elements are completely useless traps, even if they're sub optimal for the weapon you get them on. But elements can't really be removed at this point or they risk some serious shenanigans.

[Aldain]

About time they got rid of that stupid automatic death.

I mean no offense DE but WHAT WERE YOU THINKING with that? Because dying when you win in a Video Game is almost universally viewed as a very VERY bad design choice.

[przemo877]

All around great changes! but still I kinda wish that Kuva liches were dying and in the process of dying learning/stealing one of our abilities like in the original concept. Each consecutive encounter would be that much more memorable. Bonus points if they'd quip about it next time we saw them.

[DogsConkers]

Larvling shows weapon:

Should have been there day 1 I’m sure it was considered at the time, hindsight eh!

No back break animation:

Pity, it was fun as you witnessed the demise of your poor team mate with lots of ‘rip back’ or similar comments in game chat.

Valance transfer:

Good for completionists but no obvious meta has yet emerged suggesting a 60% elemental gain on these particular weapons is worthwhile. You’ll need to boost their base stats to make this interesting.

Double ephemera chance:

Still not worth the very high probability of being lumbered with a ‘non ephemera’ Lich for hours, days. Better to trade for it.

Liches staying longer:

Really? The feedback indicates people don’t like it and you’re making it a longer process? This just makes the worse part of Liches even worse. More suffering ahead.

2 more weapons:

Forcing players back into a system they don’t like just to get MR in the hopes that these small changes will make them suddenly deliriously happy about Liches is a bit too much to hope for.

No ‘Lich be gone’ option

Just take a deep breath and fix it with this bold and scary but simple solution. This isn’t really one of those times where you can tweak a few parameters.

Summary:

These changes don’t address the ‘horrible thing’ which is having to kill the Lich on average 8 times (for me) just to get rid of it if there's no ephamera. Also you have a greater chance of winning the lottery on a scratch card than guessing the next correct symbol of the code sequence. There are too many symbols. And what’s the point of Lich levels when they always go to 5?

Tweaking things after deployment is a very successful, tried and tested process which is awesome, progressive, gets new content out there quickly and I’m a huge fan. However I think the Lich system is different as the analysis for 2019 shows. Let’s be bold with this one make it easy and move on to other things that people can spend time doing. Don’t let it drag you down any further it’s caused too much aggravation and lost sentiment. You can’t win ‘em all. Good luck.

 

[PollexMessier]

25 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Thanks for this, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

However, i really need to ask: why are you still hiding the ephemeras behind RNG? You literally just dropped an update adressing that very same issue with the tenebrous ephemera. Could we have something similar here? For example, each lich could drop a token after being vanquished/converted, and then we could trade a certain amount of those tokens for the ephemeras.

I would've loved a system where you dismantled duplicate litch weapons into tokens based on it's damage% and element, and you could ether craft them into an ephemera or use them to increase the damage of a weapon with the corresponding element

[Pixydis]

Valence Transfer Infusion

So will we be able to see the %%% of the bonus damage somewhere in the UI?
Aside from digging in the codex and looking for the Lich in there? It's soooo convoluted and buried that it's a pain to find every time you want to know what %%% of the bonus damage your weapon has.

[b4timert]

After 56 liches My fastest lich was 30 min my longest is 4+ hours

There is massive varions in guessing mods

 murmur farm can spawn anything from 2-15 thralls. Squad size affect how many thralls spawn so when no one join you it tent to be on the lower side. and im not spending 20+ min in a mission if spamming them is faster and give more. and then if a lich spawn often it hard for it to to make more thralls  outside endless mission because normally there is very little to convert. And in endless mission other people just kill them before they convert since they want the chance for their spawn.

after those problems then there is the huge variance in if they spawn it can take around 2 hours if they spawn every few mission but I have gone almost a hour+ without one spawning.

[Rishathra]

I like the idea of the lich still using WWE moves on you if you guess wrong, but just have it hurt you like it does when you are fighting them normally, instead of a guaranteed kill.  That makes them still risky, but not unfairly punishing.

Alternately, have them die, then be reborn through the kuva, emphasizing the unkillable aspect of them.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

This is great stuff guys. .  I think I might start haunting again. .. thanks for listening to our feedback.  " Steve" cough cough"   joking...😉

[Twisted_Wisdom]

4 hours ago, -TSA-Rubicon2.0 said:

Should the weapon be CONVERTED or VANQUISHED to be able to infused? 
I assume that I must have 2x Kuva Kohm? ( 2x same weapon?)
Sorry... for the question, I just came back from few months off... 

Vanquish lich to get kuva weapon which can then be used to infuse another (same) kuva weapon.
Convert lich to be able to trade lich but you dont get the weapon.
Either way (vanquish or convert) will grant ephemera if the lich has one.

[(XBOX)Nittymaster]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Valence Transfer Infusion

• First introduced in 26.0.6, Valence Transfer was designed to address owning duplicate Kuva weapons with different unique innate damage bonuses. Giving you the ability to replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus (plus investments like Forma, Focus Lens etc) with one from another Kuva weapon was a good start, but we can push this even further!

Is this a one time deal only?

[CFandCo]

I like these changes. Sad to see the lich 'back break' animations get the ditch, but I understand. Other thing I would like to be touched on a bit is the murmur requirement. I feel like all three requiem hints should be the same amount of murmurs required across the board. I would be much happier if all three took as long as Requiem hint 2 at the most. I also understand the frustration people have with the 5 forma needed to complete mastery, but I honestly don't have an issue with the 5 forma, work for you weapons in my opinion. I know that is probably an unpopular opinion. You're already getting a way to get the 'perfect' 60% weapon through duplicates. Can't be handed everything.

[Huanthus]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lich 1.1: Dev Workshop + ETA:
 

Tenno!

Welcome to a 3-part workshop covering Kuva Lich changes. We have already talked about changes in 2 major batches: At the end of 2019 both in our Devstreams and our initial Dev Workshop on November 11th, and at the start of 2020 on our first Stream of the year. This workshop aims to better summarize the on-couch thoughts into what’s being implemented and why.
 

The 3 parts are as follows:
1. ETA
2. Can / Can’t Expect
3. Bigger Picture. 

Part 1: ETA!

First and foremost - we were going to ship these changes today but are giving ourselves until next week for more testing. Expect this next week on PC… and maybe even PS4 + XB1 (with Switch soon)! 

Part 2: What you can and can’t expect!

You can expect: 

2020 Kuvision

The birth of the very first Kuva Lich came just over 3 months ago to the day (October 31 2019)! A copious amount of Additions, Changes, and Fixes have been made in these 3 months; each one of them touching the surface of feedback, but not fully reaching all the way into the depths. Today, that changes! 

If you watched Devstream #136, the 2019 Player Survey showed us that out of the 27,000+ responses, the Kuva Lich system was the 2019 addition that was enjoyed the least. Many players voiced that the Kuva Lich system got progressively less fun the more time and energy was devoted to it. While finding the line between repetition and progress is one Warframe has struggled with since its first day, Liches highlighted some issues we aim to address while walking that line.

The Kuva Larvling Who Lived

Starting from the very beginning of Kuva Lich conception brings us to Kuva Larvlings. Kuva Larvlings will now play a key role in determining your future relationship with your Kuva Lich.

• A downed Kuva Larvling will now display an icon of the Kuva weapon that its birthed Kuva Lich will possess!
  • This allows players to decide upfront if they want to pursue that weapon by finishing the downed Kuva Larvling, or to ignore and attempt another Lich.

  Hide contents

As an added benefit to completing the mission even if you choose NOT to kill the Kuva Larvling, a downed Kuva Larvling will grant 100 Kuva on End of Mission.

 

Breaking Your Back for Knowledge

• Your Kuva Lich will no longer kill you when you fail a Requiem guess, nor will they attempt to break your back. The Parazon stabbing animation will play but the UI will show whether it was a success or failure. Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave, leaving your back and dignity intact! There is no longer a failure loop here for the Requiem flow. 

Valence Transfer Infusion

• First introduced in 26.0.6, Valence Transfer was designed to address owning duplicate Kuva weapons with different unique innate damage bonuses. Giving you the ability to replace a Kuva weapon’s innate damage bonus (plus investments like Forma, Focus Lens etc) with one from another Kuva weapon was a good start, but we can push this even further!
  
  Valence Transfer now also boosts your Kuva weapons innate damage bonus. Examples:
• Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%

• Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be infused into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%

• Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be infused into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Your Kuva weapon duplicates now offer a gradual progression towards a “perfect” Kuva weapon, which would reflect a 60% damage value, if you choose to pursue this path.

Other Changes you can expect:

• You can expect the Chance of a Lich having an Ephemera to double. 
• Converted Liches will stay longer, do more damage, and actually use their abilities! 
• 2 more Weapons entering the Kuva Fold!

What you can’t expect is the ‘Lich be-gone’: We have removed the prototype for this for now, because rather than not fixing the core loop and just letting a Lich be banished, we intend to focus on the core loop first. Since duplicates are now opt-in and have value for a min-maxer, there’s less of a reason to dispel a Lich. 

Part 3: Bigger Picture Items

The major questions remaining to be answered include Kuva Lich + Railjack, and other faction Liches. Until we complete Part 2 of this workshop, we won’t have much to discuss on this front, but stay tuned! 

Thank you for reading - see you soon, Tenno!
 

Its a step in a good direction, also it would be a welcome addion to:

-Completing a mission objective should award Requiem Murmurs depending on the type of mission i.e:

Exterminate +5 Requiem Murmurs

Mobile Defense point  health>=95%  on the terminal +4 RM per MD point or <95% Health +2 RM per MD point

Spy Missions terminals 10 RM per perfect terminal, 5 per terminal while alarms are on and 3 while being detected

Defense health>=95% +10 RM or if health threshold goes below 95% at least once +5 RM

and so on

This would make the process less tedious also if you could ensure a lich encounter after an Spy mission or a MD mission (since you are hacking and getting info about your lich) would be awesome too

Other than that 

The lich leveling should provide extra bonuses on your weapon maybe the same  bonuses that your lich gets as resistances and immunities lets say 50% of the weapon bonus for resistances and 75% for immunities so if you have a kuva weapon that  has 30% Toxin bonus and gets after leveling  immunities to corrosive, puncture and resistance to Slash you could get by the end a kuva weapon with 30% Toxin + 23% Corrosive+ 23% Puncture and +15% slash that would be rewarding enough to let the lich level up.

[Brahkest]

Good changes so far, I like em 🙂

Though, I do *hope* that larvlings show ephemera on them in addition to the weapons if they happen to spawn one. I'm at the point where I've gotten all the weapons so far and I'm genuinely not going to farm liches in the future if I have to continue to gamble on ephem spawns since liches in general are tedious. However I am keen to farm certain weapons to get them to 60% so maybe I'll run into those emphems anyway lol

Also like others have said, I hope there's plans for anything to do with the 5 forma investment on the weapons. I guess I personally just cannot get with releveling weapons that many times for no added benefit when just a couple forma would make them decent weapons with plenty of capacity - then again I hardly ever put that many forma into anything so I know its a personal preference. I feel like it would be cool if the 5th forma unlocked a gimmick or something with the weapons. I just feel the tedium of liches continues with the tedium of leveling weapons but at least the weapons can be used anywhere whereas liches are locked to their nodes. In this sense, I'm definitely not looking forward to corpus/infested liches if they ever happen because that'll be what, 20+ more weapons for 100+ more forma.

[DaraSilverDragon]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your Kuva Lich will no longer kill you when you fail a Requiem guess, nor will they attempt to break your back. The Parazon stabbing animation will play but the UI will show whether it was a success or failure. Upon receiving a Requiem fail, your Kuva Lich will laugh at you and leave, leaving your back and dignity intact! There is no longer a failure loop here for the Requiem flow. 

Honestly, this actually makes me pretty sad. Those animations were badass, and I do feel like this made the Liches feel more like an actual credible threat.
I definitely agree that being an instakill that can't be revived from by a teammate was going pretty overboard and I do feel like that needs to change, but, perhaps ripping the system out wholesale is something of an overcorrection?
Personally, I would very much like an options menu setting (off by default, so folk like Rhaetalius won't jump all over it) allowing you to opt in for 'Kuva Demiliches', which would just re-enable the failure states - maybe even make them a little harder/smarter. This time though, instead of just being an unreviveable instakill, perhaps the awesome animation doing something like 35-50% of your hp as true damage would suffice - and then have us do a 'getting back up' animation that gives the lich time to quip about requiems and run away

This way, the sweet animations can stay in the game, liches can still feel like they could kick your ass, and no one is getting instagibbed just for having the gall to not be lucky with their parazon choices

[gluih]

This looks like it just removes, what was really annoying to a lot of players. You don't have to grind as much anymore. You don't get killed anymore.

There is nothing added to make the liches actually feel powerful. The fights won't be any different. The mod RNG still comes after the fight and while it's not as frustrating as before, it would make more sense to have the check before you can deal damage.
The lich creation also isn't any different and you still go to cassini. The difference is just, that now you run it over and over until you find a new weapon or the upgrade you are looking for.

Farming liches is still disconnected from the rest of the game.