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Alternative to grind


RCC_2000
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Is there any? Most games I know are based on grind. If the game is not a linear story with a certain end, it's most likely going to be a grind.

It seems to me that Warframe tried to make it more challenging for tough players, like The Wolf was a dmg sponge for most, my clan leader killed him with one shot (first week, before the Nerf). But even it not being challenging for him, he still needed to run missions over and over so he could show up.

How can we have less "over and over" and have more "reachable goals" with long enjoying game hours? 

If we look back at our first days in Warframe, we searched carefully every corner.

Our minds blasted off as we learned to bullet jump.

Once again when we learned to do it upwards.

Then Defence, Survival and MD started to get easier.

Finally we managed to make the interception missions.

Then we get to the point that everything is so trivial.


The only thing that I can come up with as I type right now is AI.

What if we had instead of so many enemies less, but enemies that dodge our shots, reflect them, pair our melee mid air, if we miss the timing our weapon flies away, we need to reach the 2nd or 1st weapon before we reach the floor, otherwise we get the knock down (instead of it coming out of no where)

No no no, I'm not thinking about a Batman gameplay style where 4 enemies wait around you as you fight with 1, I visualize 10 enemies attacking you at the same time because you're the most dangerous threat to their faction, and they're not going to keep sending millions of minions to simply die before you...

It should feel like they send their best ninjas, or elites, or whatever, not just a dumb Ai with shields and armor.

Peace.

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Even with good AI, that wouldn't alter the fact that grind is ultimately a necessity in an open-ended game. There is no way for a dev to produce enough original content to last several thousand hours whilst introducing new mechanics, enemies or levels as it would in a campaign-based game. Even such game are at most going to push 30-60 hours. Even games like Skyrim can only push further by having a majority of quests involve some degree of grinding or something that involves the same kind of re-use of old assets and level structures as before. You know the sort, acquire 20 bear pelts, or run through a dungeon full of draugur/falmer/dwemmer just like the 35 you've seen before, and so on. There is only so much stuff even the most high-budget games with huge development cycles can have.

 

Grind and more challenging content are not mutually exclusive. One's a factor of the very nature of the game, the other is a factor of balancing issues.

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I think grind is fine, within reason, rng is what has killed WF for me. 

Grind is part of the game - but grind for a negative reward, or no reward at all, is not worth my time and thus penalizes the play for time invested.

Take liches - RNG generated weapon, with RNG generated dmg bonus %, for which you have to get RNG drop relics, with RNG reward tables, to get the requiems, to get a weapon that you either don't want, or is a low % terrible reward (or worse a dupe that has a lower % than the one you have).  If I could buff a 35% weapon to 40% with a 25% weapon drop, the 25% bonus wouldn't be a complete waste of my time to grind.  I have to spend time finding out the requiems, possible doing rng drop relic runs if I don't have a charged requiem of the right word, just to get something that is 100% useless and get a CHANCE at an upgrade.  And then RNGeezus may decide that's a worthless drop as well.  How much grind is ok, when there is 0 reward for the grind.  

Sure the Hema grind is stupid, and should be removed, but at least you know you get the Hema bp after x grind.  It's finite.  The grind isn't the problem.  Tell me how many liches I'm 100% guaranteed to get all 13 weapons (I have like 10 or 11 so far)?  You can't.  Tell me how many times I have to get a Kuva Quartakk to be able to have a 50-60% dmg bonus?  You can't.  Grind without goal is a waste of time, and their decision to take the game hard in that direction is why I barely play now.

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12 hours ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

I think grind is fine, within reason, rng is what has killed WF for me. 

Grind is part of the game - but grind for a negative reward, or no reward at all, is not worth my time and thus penalizes the play for time invested.

Take liches - RNG generated weapon, with RNG generated dmg bonus %, for which you have to get RNG drop relics, with RNG reward tables, to get the requiems, to get a weapon that you either don't want, or is a low % terrible reward (or worse a dupe that has a lower % than the one you have).  If I could buff a 35% weapon to 40% with a 25% weapon drop, the 25% bonus wouldn't be a complete waste of my time to grind.  I have to spend time finding out the requiems, possible doing rng drop relic runs if I don't have a charged requiem of the right word, just to get something that is 100% useless and get a CHANCE at an upgrade.  And then RNGeezus may decide that's a worthless drop as well.  How much grind is ok, when there is 0 reward for the grind.  

I would read up on the dev workshop. Coming next week on PC at the earliest, we will see things like a way to improve weapons even if the stats are worse. The formula seems to be Highest%Value x 1.1 = New elemental %. 

The problem I have is that DE does not launch updates this way. They ship something grindy, they wait a month or so, and then they turn it down for the majority of casual play. It's a cycle that not only disrespects your time for playing a new update on launch, but also gives you the impression that DE does not place much important on pacing and time investments. I like grind myself, even RNG stat rolls on Rivens don't bother me. What bothers me is that things are never cemented. When Empyrean launched, I took a break and banked on the update becoming much easier in terms of time investments. I banked on Liches too with Ephemera farming, and they will be 20% next week...

Edited by Voltage
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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

When Empyrean launched, I took a break and banked on the update becoming much easier in terms of time investments. I banked on Liches too with Ephemera farming, and they will be 20% next week...

Funny how playing less will end up getting you further, isn’t it? Sometimes I think they make the grind off putting at first, so only the hardcore grinders really put effort into it. Gives them time to fix bugs, and make things less of a headache I suppose. The dedicated players tend to provide more accurate feedback as well. 

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9 hours ago, Voltage said:

I would read up on the dev workshop. Coming next week on PC at the earliest, we will see things like a way to improve weapons even if the stats are worse. The formula seems to be Highest%Value x 1.1 = New elemental %. 

The problem I have is that DE does not launch updates this way. They ship something grindy, they wait a month or so, and then they turn it down for the majority of casual play. It's a cycle that not only disrespects your time for playing a new update on launch, but also gives you the impression that DE does not place much important on pacing and time investments. I like grind myself, even RNG stat rolls on Rivens don't bother me. What bothers me is that things are never cemented. When Empyrean launched, I took a break and banked on the update becoming much easier in terms of time investments. I banked on Liches too with Ephemera farming, and they will be 20% next week...

Yup saw Brozime's video this morning, very encouraging - in fact I commented on that video along the lines of "After 4 months, liches are becoming for the most part what they should have released as."  As you said, they seem to punish the people who are most hyped (which often correlates to most supportive financially).  I built my Railjack, but have barely taken it out because the whole grind to play paradigm and drop rates and whatnot turned me off.  As you said, maybe in 2-3 more months it will be in a state to actually justify some level of more than passing bare-minimum engagement.  That said, how sustainable is that business model, in the long run?  Also I've been very dissapointed in what feels like an increase in the feeling of predatory monetization.  Eg putting the palattes in the same extremely pricey bundle as the lich quick start bundle.  There is no reason to combine cosmetics and the jumpstart requiem mods other than to charge more for people who want only one or the other.  Much more predatory and exploitative, vs normal cosmetic monetization and jumpstart bundles, but that's really a thread of it's own, nothing to do with grind.

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Grind is ok with me. I like to grind. I am ok to do a 100 repititive actions to get my prize at the end. Grendel farm is a good example. Nightwave as well.

You put an efford (time) - you receive a reward at the end - you feel happy. You knew exactly how much of this grind is ahead of you. You knew when exactly you would be rewarded. The closer you get to it, the better you feel. And then you celebrate your prize!

RNG in not ok. You never know for sure when will you get rewarded. Sometimes you just quit the game with frustration after hours of farming something and having no reward at all.

You put an efford (time) - you receive a reward after a few fails but still get it  after a while. You think "well, I got lucky this time, no frustration this time".

You put an efford (time) - you don't receive a reward for too long - you get upset/frustrated. 

You put an efford (time) - you receive a reward too quick - you feel ok. But there is no feeling of accomplishment. 

 

RNG farming makes you feel that you don't have control over the farming process. And, well, you don't. Too much like real life weather conditions during farming. Your skill doesn't matter, your gear doesn't matter, your advanced game knowledge doesn't matter. You completely depend on RNG and all you can do is spend more and more of your time in exchange for the CHANCE to get a reward, not a reward itself. And each new roll is completely independent of your previous rolls, fails never add to your progress.

Edited by Scar.brother.help.me
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On 2020-01-29 at 6:51 PM, RCC_2000 said:

How can we have less "over and over" and have more "reachable goals" with long enjoying game hours? 

by the game not being strictly about just collecting stuff like playing with a doll house - i.e. by making the game dramatically more difficult, actually difficult, so that Stats is a third or less of the components of what makes you succeed in Missions. and thusly so that failing Missions is something that is just normal to happen sometimes.
then, you might possibly have Missions involve less standing around doing nothing waiting for Timers or repeating the same Mission you've already done 20,000 times (a Timer in another form in this game).

without that, then nothing is likely to change because the Timers are to get you to stand around and use up your time - and Digital Extremes is apparently too afraid of making content that is about more than Timers and participation ribbons of simply being present, in order to address the problem from the other direction of just creating difficult things to do even despite the Stats to W+M1 though 95% of Enemies.

Edited by taiiat
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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

by the game not being strictly about just collecting stuff like playing with a doll house - i.e. by making the game dramatically more difficult, actually difficult, so that Stats is a third or less of the components of what makes you succeed in Missions. and thusly so that failing Missions is something that is just normal to happen sometimes.
then, you might possibly have Missions involve less standing around doing nothing waiting for Timers or repeating the same Mission you've already done 20,000 times (a Timer in another form in this game).

without that, then nothing is likely to change because the Timers are to get you to stand around and use up your time - and Digital Extremes is apparently too afraid of making content that is about more than Timers and participation ribbons of simply being present, in order to address the problem from the other direction of just creating difficult things to do even despite the Stats to W+M1 though 95% of Enemies.

When you say more difficult I think of "Dark Souls" difficult, so maybe you could elaborate that a bit more.

And I totally agree with failing missions. 

 

Edited by RCC_2000
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1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

You put an efford (time) - you receive a reward at the end - you feel happy. You knew exactly how much of this grind is ahead of you. You knew when exactly you would be rewarded. The closer you get to it, the better you feel. And then you celebrate your prize!

Yeah, I wish all rewards would be like invasion. Like complete 8 rounds of defense to open a relic with certain loot. Or make a mission 10 times with also guaranteed loot like a frame part.

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