@DE changes that could help shield frames scale better and not be useless

[Umquaptovis]

I am just going to advocate for something I have mentioned a long time a go. Just get rid of the delay. The shields will practicly balance them selves. With out DR abilities the shields will be paper thin so a valkyr using rage will still get eazy energy but shield tanks like hyldrin harrow and volt would gain some beaf. I see potential in this kind of change in gauss as his passive decreases the time and increases the recharge rate, this gets even better in RJ as with the zecti shields, and the right engines my ship was more than okay in the vail.

[selig_fay]

10 часов назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Armour is literally worse than a percentage DR.

10 часов назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

It's not new. It's just percentage DR that mods like Adaptation already give.

Now read this:

12 часов назад, zhellon сказал:

Armor: it is difficult to reach on frames without armor and the true damage ignores the armor.

12 часов назад, zhellon сказал:

Shield and flesh vulnerabilities: Here everything will depend on the type of damage that the defense will be built on. If you take a shield, then 60% DR against slash will be 60% DR, since slash does not give any bonuses and does not have any minuses against shields. Another point is that impact has +50% damage to shields, which is a vulnerability, and so at 60% DR against a hit, you will only get 10% DR because all values are summed here. Plus, eximuses reduce your DR, so a fire eximus will give -20% DR against fire. (I don't know exactly how much they reduce, but my toxin tests say it's more than 10%. Plus, the auras are stacked together)

Armor only loses against 1 status (and if you get immunity to the status, you won't lose). Shields literally lose against 3 types of damage. (OK, magnet and ice aren't as common in the game, so only against impact damage, which all factions have.) Flesh loses against 3 types of damage. (slash, toxin, and virus are very common in the game.)

OK, let's look at the numbers. Do you like numbers? Great. I will not touch the adaptation, because it is a vulnerable type of DR itself, which requires taking a lot of damage to accumulate DR and which is not particularly able to protect against multi damage (1 weapons can do several types of damage, so adaptation works poorly if you don't take damage from several different enemies.), and just like armor, is not able to resist true damage.

Aerodynamics and Aviator give 64% DR, put this against 60% DR of armor. Let's take the abstract values of armor, health, and shields as an example. Suppose that in embodiment 1 will be 1000 shields, 60% armor, and 300 health. And in the second version there will be 300 shields, 60% armor and 800 health. Why would I take 60% armor anyway? Because arcane guardian or health conversion. Now we use the Aviator DR.

1) Against slash damage:

Shields have 0% DR by default, 64% with A + Ae.

Health has -25% DR by default, 39% with A + Ae.

First variant: Shields give 2778 EHP. Health gives 1147 EHP. Total:3925

Second variant: Shields give 834 EHP. Health gives 3279 EHP. Total: 4113

2) Against Puncture:

Shields have 20% DR by default, 84% with A + Ae.

Health has 0% DR by default, 64%  with A + Ae.

First variant: Shields give 6250 EHP. Health gives 2500 EHP. Total:8750

Second variant: Shields give 1877 EHP. Health gives 5556 EHP. Total: 7433

3) Against impact:

Shields have -50% DR by default, 14% with A + Ae.

Health has 25% DR by default, 89%  with A + Ae.

Do you really want me to count it?

Adaptation, Aviator, and so on do not give much advantage to shields over health. I remind you that even 65 armor is 17% DR. Trinity can win from shields because she has ability resist and 15 armor. But there is an arcane guardian in the game and Trinity can easily restore her hp, so does it make sense to invest in shields for Trinity? The same can be said about Mag. It doesn't make sense to invest in shields, because mag can get an advantage from overshield and big health + arcane guardian.

Plus, I remind you that eximuses also reduce this DR depending on the eximus element. So, your 14% DR from Aviator among 3 toxic eximuses will turn-56% DR, that is, you will get 56% more damage against the toxin. All this is confirmed in the game, you can check it yourself.

So, I remind you that armor is also a form of DR. Which is better, the Aviator or the armor is a moot point. You can get both the Aviator and the armor at the same time, which will always make you feel that health is better than shields.

Edited February 2, 2020 by zhellon

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Now read this:

Oh for RNGesus sake...

This is where you're wrong.

All of those examples? You've done the maths wrong.

Damage values are calculated by performing the Strength and Weakness variations first, then the Damage Reduction after. Strength and Weakness advantages are calculated separately.

So a Shield that has -50% against Impact? A weapon that deals 100 Damage calculates that because it's hitting a Shield it does 150 damage. It then gets the calculation for Damage Reduction from your mod combo at 64%, which brings it down to 54 Damage.

Percentage Damage Reduction affects the bottom line damage, it doesn't just count in with the base strength and weaknesses of the shield/health/armour. That's the entire point I'm trying to make by saying Armour is inconsistent.

Percentage Damage Reduction even affects True Damage, which Armour ignores. Armour will reduce the initial damage dealt by the weapon, so you don't take as big of a hit from, say, 100 damage. You would take only 50 damage if you had 300 Armour. However because Bleed is calculated from the base damage of the weapon, you would take 7 ticks of 35 damage as True Damage. However, from your little Percentage Damage Reduction mod, as long as you stayed in the air to keep Aviator and Aerodynamics active, you would take only 34 damage from the base shot, and every tick of Bleed would only deal 12.24 damage.

It's actually even better because with your A and Ae combo on a frame that actually has 300 armour, the base damage hit would actually only hit for 17 damage, and the ticks would tick for 12.24 damage. It combines.

So yes, yes I really want to count it.

Because you're not doing the maths right. You're not understanding how a Percentage Damage Reduction mod, like Adaptation, actually functions versus the damage we take.

It's like your worry about the Toxic Ancient Aura. The Aura an Eximus has gives itself damage reduction. It doesn't affect our damage reductions. The Aura deals Toxin damage to us over time, which is more effective against Armour than it is against Percentage Damage Reduction because I literally showed you how Armour loses 25% effectiveness against the damage type, so it doesn't reduce the damage as much as a flat percentage would.

19 minutes ago, zhellon said:

So, I remind you that armor is also a form of DR.

Okay. Small words time.

It is also a form of DR. Yes. And it is not as good as flat percent DR, I have showed you why. Twice.

More than that, I am not taking it away. I am adding to it. By using percent DR on top of armour you make armour count for more.

You even make other types count for more. Quick Thinking and Shields also get a buff from percent DR.

And all of your maths in your last comment show you have not understood how percent DR works already in game.

Again, to try and get this through your head:

Percent DR is better than Armour DR. But it does not replace it. It works on top of it, making all health types, be they shields, armour or health, or even QT, work better. Even against their weaknesses.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

So a Shield that has -50% against Impact? A weapon that deals 100 Damage calculates that because it's hitting a Shield it does 150 damage. It then gets the calculation for Damage Reduction from your mod combo at 64%, which brings it down to 54 Damage.

This works as I described. This is why you need 150% DR against the toxin for complete invulnerability. I have personally tested this and can prove it on video.

Спойлер

 

The problem is that if you don't touch the ground, you will only get 90% of the real DR, because the de nerf system is complete, not just the aerodynamics. But as long as you touch the ground, you can achieve complete invulnerability.

[(PSN)thegarada]

Issue with shield:

1. No damage reduction.
2. Hard to regain.
3. Some attacks bypass it. 

Even if there are better tools to regain shields, without some form of damage reduction, it would not matter. Augur, energy conversion and primed vigor do not matter at all. Buffing them would not matter at all. 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2020-02-02 at 1:40 PM, zhellon said:

I have personally tested this and can prove it on video.

I'm sorry, but what are you proving in the video? I'm not being facetious, please give me the play-by-play description here.

What I see in this is you're applying percentage damage reduction with Anti-Toxin and Adaptation, which work as percent DR, but you're then working in Umbral Fiber, with the full set boost, which is the under layer, giving Hildryn the base damage resist to her Health as well.

With the Juggernaught and Ancient there, it's actually really hard to get any solid numbers because... there are no solid numbers I can find anywhere on what damage either of these enemies actually do. It's easy with anything that uses a gun, because the enemy uses the base stats on a scale, but these are abilities and nowhere lists their actual damage numbers to crunch.

What I see happening is that with the Anti-Toxin mod equipped and your modified armour stat, you take a reasonable amount of damage. You then stack up further Percentage DR from Adaptation until you're at your 90% max with it in relation to Toxin and take virtually no damage.

This doesn't refute my point that Percentage DR is better than Armour DR, it also doesn't prove your point that these functions work the way you said. Then again, it doesn't prove my point either.

Because we don't know what those numbers are and can't give any real calculations. However! What I can do is some basics, and propose a rough damage guide based on what we do know.

With this in place, my calculations would be this:

Hildryn with a maxed Umbral Fibre would have a modified Armour stat of 877.5 Armour. Against direct Toxin damage this would calculate at having a -25% Effectiveness for a value of 658, a rather nice Damage Reduction of 68.68% (so close...)

This means that if that Toxic Ancient put out 100 damage with its Aura per second, which the Toxin bonus against Armour increases to 125 at the same time as reducing the armour effectiveness (spit-balling because, as I said, we don't know how much damage they're dealing), you would only take 39 damage if you had no Anti-Toxin mod on there and no Adaptation.

With Anti-Toxin, though, you have a further 45% DR to that Toxin damage as Percentage DR, which would bring the 39 modified-by-armour damage down to about 21.5 damage.

With every tick, though, you would build up Adaptation for a total Percentage DR barrier of 94.5% on all further hits. So from the armour-reduction you would take 39 damage, then from the Percentage DR on top you would only take 2 damage out of 125.

And Toxic Ancient Auras could actually be dealing less than that to you per second. Nox Toxin Balls, when they stick to you, are shown to be stronger than Toxic Ancient Auras at dealing damage over time, and at level 170 the scaled damage on those is only 130 Toxin per second. So it's possible, not sure of the difference, again, just spit-balling, that a Toxic Ancient Aura would only be dealing somewhere around 50 or 60 damage per second.

In which case, with the same calculations for reduction, 50 damage per second would only deal a total of 1 damage per second once Armour and Percentage DR came into effect. If you added in that Aura you had before, for the extra 15% base, meaning your Percentage DR would cap out at 96% on top of the Armour's rather hefty 68.68%. You could be looking at 50 toxin damage per second working out more like 0.78 damage per second, which means you wouldn't lose a full point of health for two ticks. There's a chance that the system could round down when it's in our favour and say that anything less than 1 damage is 0 damage.

So in this case, your video works out kind of supporting me as much as it supports you. But again, that's only spit-balling numbers.

Because we don't know how much damage those enemies actually deal with their abilities.

Something to consider, though?

Try that with only armour. Stack your Umbrals, add in Armoured Agility, Stand United, Coaction Drift (to make the Aura stronger), Gladiator Aegis and Health Conversion fully ramped and let's also add in 2x Arcane Tanker triggered by summoning your Arch Weapon. You go from your current armour of 877.5 (74.5% base DR) right up to 5012 total armour (DR of 94.3%) Now that's hefty, that's more base numbers than Adaptation... except with so much more modding...

Say that the damage was again 100, your armour value is reduced to 3759 (92.6%) just because Toxin is hitting it, the Toxin deals 125 base damage because of it's bonus against armour, that is reduced to... 9.25 damage.

Which is pretty sweet actually, and everyone can see why modding in Armour and adding Armour additive functions is really good in the current game.

On the other side, however...

What this means is that if you mod for just Armour and stand next to a Toxic Ancient, you do survive better if you have Percent DR mods equipped than if you have three Umbral mods, four Armour boosting mods and two Armour additive Arcanes all active together.

Sure, with Adaptation, you take more up-front damage to get it working. And yes, your mod setup there did stack three Umbrals, and two extra DR mods. But your mod setup there performed exceptionally because of the combination of Armour DR and Percentage DR.

And do you know what's better? If you use Hildryn's passive Overshields function, that 96% DR you have from just Anti-Toxin, Toxin Resist and Adaptation would actually mean that your Overshields would have tanked that damage instead. Because Toxin has no bonus against Shields (because it normally bypasses) and would have only dealt a grand tally of... 4% of its total damage to those shields. Or from 100 damage per second, only 4, and from 50 damage per second, only 2.

Buuuuut... The overshields part was one you already agreed with me on, so that's not important.

So do you see?

You actually support my point, you just think you don't.

I mean, do you have any idea what would change with this build if, instead of only Armour, Umbral Fibre did Percentage DR instead? It would get even better!

Remember my idea that Umbral Fibre would stack up to 80% with the triple boost? Think of that, with Adaptation, Anti-toxin and Hildryn's base 300 Armour.

100 Damage again; increases to 125 for hitting Armour, Armour of 300 reduced to 225 because of Toxin debuff, so armour-reduced-damage is now 71 damage, with 45% Antitoxin, 80% Umbral and 90% Adaptation, your Percentage DR brings that adjusted damage down to 0.78! This is less than 1 damage per second on even 100 Damage per second! If I'm right and Toxic Ancients only deal half that? You would be taking even less! Hell, even with that Nox Ball I mentioned before, dealing a base of 130 per second? 1 damage per second. That's right. 1 damage per second after being stuck with a level 170 Nox Toxin Ball.

So... starting to believe me yet?

[selig_fay]

27 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

'm sorry, but what are you proving in the video? I'm not being facetious, please give me the play-by-play description here.

Yes, I agree, not very revealing. I'll do this:

Спойлер

 

The first option is without an antitoxin aura. Antitoxin + adaptation give 135% DR against the toxin (they add up), so given that the flesh has -50% DR, I will get 85% DR. I use Juggernaught to provide 90% DR from the toxin from adaptation. The ancient toxic is used for checking, as it has a very large toxin damage. As you can see, in the first version it is oneshot me.

In the second option, I add 15% resistance to the toxin, which in the end gives me 100% DR. But, you can see for yourself that I only get 90% when I jump. But when I touch the ground, I get complete invulnerability. Also, note that when I take health damage, I get red indicators at the edges of the screen. But, when I have full resistance to the toxin, I get blue indicators that tell me that the toxin is doing damage to the shield, but we all know that the toxin can't do that. This is a confirmation that we get 0 damage on shields and health.

Also, the aura of the ancient toxic gives all mobs around it toxin damage, so I would get hp damage anyway, but this doesn't happen when my shields are active.

Edited February 3, 2020 by zhellon

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

I only get 90% when I jump. But when I touch the ground, I get complete invulnerability

That just sounds like a bug to me.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

This is a confirmation that we get 0 damage on shields and health.

Yes, but again, you're just demonstrating that Percentage DR is better than Armour DR.

So with this knowledge, that Percentage DR can do this for you, what's the problem with shifting armour mods to Percentage DR mods? It makes both health pools functionally better. Bypass damage can't damage you as much and shields would become more durable at the same time.

And even if it was changed so that it could never stack up to 100% (because DE don't actually like things that go that far without drawbacks), it would still be better than the inconsistent nature of amour DR.

As I've said before, there isn't really a downside to that concept. Especially not with DEScott's idea that instead of scaling enemy armour up so high, they would instead scale their damage more. We're going to need more mods that increase overall EHP for squishy frames.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

That just sounds like a bug to me.

Because it's a bug. DE fix the aerodynamics this way.

2 минуты назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Yes, but again, you're just demonstrating that Percentage DR is better than Armour DR.

So with this knowledge, that Percentage DR can do this for you, what's the problem with shifting armour mods to Percentage DR mods? It makes both health pools functionally better. Bypass damage can't damage you as much and shields would become more durable at the same time.

And even if it was changed so that it could never stack up to 100% (because DE don't actually like things that go that far without drawbacks), it would still be better than the inconsistent nature of amour DR.

As I've said before, there isn't really a downside to that concept. Especially not with DEScott's idea that instead of scaling enemy armour up so high, they would instead scale their damage more. We're going to need more mods that increase overall EHP for squishy frames.

Now go back to the calculations I presented and look at the impact damage. This is the most common type of damage and shields can't protect themselves from it, because in fact, even with 90% of the adaptation, you will only get 40% of the DR.

As I said earlier, these are just two different types of DR with their own disadvantages and advantages. Armor protects by a whole percentage, while the vulnerability DR takes into account each type of damage individually. In any case, the armor and Dr vulnerabilities look bad compared to the ancient healer, which just provides 90% of the DR and has a good AI now.

[Benour]

Dude flat % dmg reduction (aka adaptation) is like 10x better than ANY armor stacking.

Not to mention Adaptation is 1 mod slot meanwhile stacking for armor takes like half the mod slots.

Not to mention armor stacking has diminishing returns.

Not to mention 3/4 of warframes have almost no armor so armor stacking is useless on them.

Not to mention adaptation is actually awesome on many of them (as long as you dont get oneshotted and can build up DR from Adaptation).

Not to mention Adaptation DR works on shields, so Volt, Mag, Harrow, Gara, Hildryn and few more all can be awesome shield tanks. 

Not to mention armor stacking is viable on about 3? frames. Inaros/Valkyr/Grendel and even then it has diminishing returns so the difference between 2k armor and 3k is few % (aka waste of mod slost).

Its not rocket science really (but you presenting it as it was lmao).

Edited February 4, 2020 by Benour

[TheGrimCorsair]

2 hours ago, Benour said:

Dude flat % dmg reduction (aka adaptation) is like 10x better than ANY armor stacking.

Not to mention Adaptation is 1 mod slot meanwhile stacking for armor takes like half the mod slots.

Not to mention armor stacking has diminishing returns.

Not to mention 3/4 of warframes have almost no armor so armor stacking is useless on them.

Not to mention adaptation is actually awesome on many of them (as long as you dont get oneshotted and can build up DR from Adaptation).

Not to mention Adaptation DR works on shields, so Volt, Mag, Harrow, Gara, Hildryn and few more all can be awesome shield tanks. 

Not to mention armor stacking is viable on about 3? frames. Inaros/Valkyr/Grendel and even then it has diminishing returns so the difference between 2k armor and 3k is few % (aka waste of mod slost).

Its not rocket science really (but you presenting it as it was lmao).

Yes, thank you for pointing out that warframes get DR far too easily as it is and EHP across the board should be nerfed, as should Adaptation.

With all that post spam you did, you were bound to have one useful thing to say.

[Benour]

Happy you learned something new.

No problem, if you have more questions about warframe basics i gladly help.

[selig_fay]

Adaptation does not give 90% DR against each type of damage. I don't understand why people keep saying this?

Here's the DR you can get against each type of damage when fully stacking adaptations(shields/health)

 Impact 40%/115%

 Puncture 110%/90%

 Slash 90%/65%

 True 0%/0%

 Heat 90%/90%

 Cold 40%/90%

 Electricity 90%/90%

 Toxin 0%/40%

 Blast 90%/90%

 Corrosive 90%/90%

 Gas 90%/115%

 Magnetic 15%/90%

 Radiation 115%/90%

 Viral 90%/40%

Some values are higher than 90%, some are lower. Also, opponents most always hit multiple types of damage, such as you defend against 50% slash damage, but the enemy will also hit you with 30% impact damage, which the adaptation will not take into account, which will actually destroy your shields, because shields have a very large weakness against impact damage. But, you also need to get a large amount of damage for stacking adaptations. It is easy to get? I do not think so. Adaptation is completely useless for a frame without armor, even if the frame has large shields, because the shields will be destroyed before the adaptation starts working.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yes, thank you for pointing out that warframes get DR far too easily as it is and EHP across the board should be nerfed, as should Adaptation.

It's kind of the opposite, to be fair.

Frames do get EHP easily, but that's because the enemy has only one function; Damage. And DEScott literally pointed out that his method for balancing out his changes to enemy armour scaling is that they will scale up their damage more than currently too.

We're going to start taking more damage without specific play styles, more and more frames will be in the 'Rocket Tag' zone faster, and that's not really a good form of scaling in many people's opinion.

The AI, the types of damage, the method that enemies deal that damage... none of that is affected by the scaling, unlike in a lot of other games. In other games the disparate units have actually disparate behaviours. The units with rockets will actually go find high places to fire from, not stand in the middle of the room trying to tank. Units with snipers will find corners and peek. Units with standard range won't forget to come out of cover if you leave them there for too long. The units that buff their allies have self preservation, knowing they'll be targeted, and so send other units on ahead. Units will fire more if you're reloading, or taking cover, or low on health. And the spawned units, like drones or dogs, will always try to actually distract you from shooting their owners.

In Warframe you have 'takes cover occasionally, will sometimes take cover pre-emptively and so think that they can't see you, so you can't see them, and never move', 'walks slowly towards you shooting', 'runs at you to hit you' and my favourite 'can't decide so will take two steps in one direction, spin around and take two steps back, repeat until the guy with the bow/sniper wants to bite their desk'. There's no... challenge to these enemies. all they have is Damage.

And so... if all the enemy has is Damage, then frames with the ability to not take as much damage are going to become more and more necessary. Unless a frame has a particularly clever way of not taking damage that doesn't involve direct Damage Reduction. It's one or the other.

Because sooner or later... almost every frame gets one-shot.

Also...

8 hours ago, zhellon said:

True 0%/0%

Incorrect.

Even True Damage is reduced by Adaptation. Test it, it even has its own symbol in Adaptation's UI buff list.

8 hours ago, zhellon said:

such as you defend against 50% slash damage, but the enemy will also hit you with 30% impact damage, which the adaptation will not take into account

I can see why you're saying this too, but it's also not precisely correct.

Adaptation will only build its buffs from one type of damage that the particular enemy is dealing. However, if Adaptation has built up DR against both Impact and Slash from different sources, such as from other units attacking the player, it will work on both damage types at once for further hits, no matter if those hits are from a single source.

So as long as you see the Icon in the HUD, you have that damage reduction for that type of damage no matter the source.

[selig_fay]

Только что, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Incorrect.

Even True Damage is reduced by Adaptation. Test it, it even has its own symbol in Adaptation's UI buff list.

Adaptations can't be stack from true damage. Check it out on slash damage. It doesn't reduce anything.

Another point is that the Aviator does it.

2 минуты назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

I can see why you're saying this too, but it's also not precisely correct.

Adaptation will only build its buffs from one type of damage that the particular enemy is dealing. However, if Adaptation has built up DR against both Impact and Slash from different sources, such as from other units attacking the player, it will work on both damage types at once for further hits, no matter if those hits are from a single source.

So as long as you see the Icon in the HUD, you have that damage reduction for that type of damage no matter the source.

This is why I say that adaptation is useless for thin frames. 1 opponent can only give 1 stack of adaptations. And if you are attacked by two opponents, then you may have 2 different types of DR, or it may be that you are attacked by 2 identical opponents, and there will only be 1 type of damage. But in any case, this is a specific mod and I would not consider it as 90% DR when calculating EHP. Maybe 60%, but not 90.

[Birdframe_Prime]

53 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This is why I say that adaptation is useless for thin frames.

Here's a fun question;

Why are you trying to make this an argument about Adaptation?

Is it because you don't want to admit the entire original point of my argument is actually something you've accidentally argued in favour of?

Adaptation and how it works isn't the debate here. I proposed, in a thread that wants to make shields more viable, adding Percentage DR would make for more viable shields and when I was questioned about this I also pointed out that it made for more viable health, because Percentage DR is better than Armour DR. With that logic if Armour mods were converted to Percentage DR, we would see a net buff, not just in Health's effectiveness and viability, but also in Shields.

That's a point that you have consistently tried to side-step by trying to divert into why Bypass damage is too big of a threat to allow players to mod for shields, which I countered repeatedly by showing you that because Percentage DR works more effectively than pure Armour DR, damage that bypasses shields does not become more of a threat, it actually becomes less of a threat under the proposed changes.

And now you're trying to derail the topic into the specifics of Adaptation, almost like you're trying to make its quirks and particular failings somehow representative of how the new system would be, when Adaptations quirks would not apply to any basic Percentage DR mod, even if it was sometimes a little conditional to gain like Health Conversion or Mecha Pulse.

I think you got the point a while back and are now only arguing to try and save face when you don't need to. People would actually respect you more if you were to say 'okay, I concede that point' and then move on to the next point instead, and also be more willing to debate with you in the future.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Here's a fun question;

Why are you trying to make this an argument about Adaptation?

Is it because you don't want to admit the entire original point of my argument is actually something you've accidentally argued in favour of?

Adaptation and how it works isn't the debate here. I proposed, in a thread that wants to make shields more viable, adding Percentage DR would make for more viable shields and when I was questioned about this I also pointed out that it made for more viable health, because Percentage DR is better than Armour DR. With that logic if Armour mods were converted to Percentage DR, we would see a net buff, not just in Health's effectiveness and viability, but also in Shields.

That's a point that you have consistently tried to side-step by trying to divert into why Bypass damage is too big of a threat to allow players to mod for shields, which I countered repeatedly by showing you that because Percentage DR works more effectively than pure Armour DR, damage that bypasses shields does not become more of a threat, it actually becomes less of a threat under the proposed changes.

And now you're trying to derail the topic into the specifics of Adaptation, almost like you're trying to make its quirks and particular failings somehow representative of how the new system would be, when Adaptations quirks would not apply to any basic Percentage DR mod, even if it was sometimes a little conditional to gain like Health Conversion or Mecha Pulse.

I think you got the point a while back and are now only arguing to try and save face when you don't need to. People would actually respect you more if you were to say 'okay, I concede that point' and then move on to the next point instead, and also be more willing to debate with you in the future.

I didn't try to get around anything. I just said that the armor is the DR. But the problem is that if shields and health get DR, then health already has armor, which means that health will have 2 DR and it will still be better than shields. Another point, add DR only to shields? OK, then what will be the difference between health that has armor and shields that have DR? I remind you that armor is also DR and only true damage can ignore it.

I don't really care if the shields have their own DR. But I think it's just a patch and the shields should work in a different way based only on volume and regeneration. Even if they finally removed the recharge delay, it would do a lot.

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 hours ago, zhellon said:

and it will still be better than shields

Which is not a bad thing? Which has never been the point of this discussion?

We're not trying to make shields better than health, we're just trying to make shields better than they are currently.

My suggested option was to use a method that would make everything better, overall, so that there wouldn't be any arguable downside to the actual change itself. Shields would become more viable, Health would also become more viable, EHP overall is improved.

Achieve goal of thread, give solid reason to have change for those people, like you, that still don't like shields.

This:

21 hours ago, zhellon said:

I don't really care if the shields have their own DR. But I think it's just a patch and the shields should work in a different way based only on volume and regeneration. Even if they finally removed the recharge delay, it would do a lot.

Is the most valid point you've made in this entire discussion.

You're suggesting an alternative that can be argued and debated by other people. And while you are, admittedly, doing it by saying 'don't care about your option, this is what I think', you haven't just repeated 'I don't like it because shields bad' for the seventeenth time.

Congrats.

So, let's hear this set of options, elaborate on how going the route of recharge based on volume and lowering recharge delay.

From my point of view, we have mods that do increase your recharge rate, functions that remove an amount of recharge delay too, but because shields haven't got the option for DR as health does, those options will never actually be used.

Unlike the option I proposed; giving Shields something they currently don't have, but Health does, your proposal of going the route of just pouring in more of functions we have doesn't seem to be as applicable in mitigating damage.

In which case, give me something to work with on that.

[Gailus]

On 2020-02-02 at 3:51 PM, (PS4)thegarada said:

Issue with shield:

1. No damage reduction.
2. Hard to regain.
3. Some attacks bypass it. 

Even if there are better tools to regain shields, without some form of damage reduction, it would not matter. Augur, energy conversion and primed vigor do not matter at all. Buffing them would not matter at all. 

I think the solution to this is a lot more straightforward than people are making it out to be. Just remove the shield recharge delay.

If shields have no recharge delay whatsoever then they have a form of pseudo damage reduction that works great against the chip damage and is garbage against burst damage. Squishier frames that have larger shields would still be squishier than the health/armor tank counterparts, but wouldn't be totally eviscerated by a barrage of bullets the moment they step out of cover.

Attacks that bypass shields are still an issue, but they're also a lot less prevalent than people make them out to be. Occasional slash procs ignore armor as well, and Toxin is only really an issue against Noxes since the Infested toxin clouds are super easy to avoid.

Arcane Aegis would need some tweaking, but simply adding another 1-5% shield recharge to the current regen would be plenty.

[Birdframe_Prime]

29 minutes ago, Gailus said:

If shields have no recharge delay whatsoever then they have a form of pseudo damage reduction that works great against the chip damage and is garbage against burst damage.

See, I'm sort of with you... except that without any kind of DR beyond what they have now with basic strengths and weaknesses, all damage actually becomes burst after a certain level, depending on which unit with which weapon.

A Corrupted Crewman, with that void modded version of the shotgun, is a good example. It's not bypass damage, like the Toxic Ancients that Zhellon was testing against, but if they land multiple pellets on you from a close range burst, those can one-shot many of the squishier frames at only level 40 or so. Which is only a few rounds into a Survival, in the higher levels. The same can be said of a few other units in different tiles.

Heck, if you go into one of the Lich missions now, with the enemies starting at over level 100, and one of them hops on a Rampart gun? Standing in front of one for more than a few seconds is definitive pain for any Warframe at all, let alone a frame with a large shield.

That said, I'm definitely seeing where you and Zhellon are coming from with the concept. On low level this would be fantastic until you get to those particular enemies that can trigger or use shield bypass damage.

I just don't see it as entirely practical when we have the kind of damage scaling that we do now, and in the future DEScott wants to actually increase that damage scaling to counter the modification to scaling armour and EHP for enemies that he's planning on changing up.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2020-02-04 at 3:28 AM, Benour said:

Dude flat % dmg reduction (aka adaptation) is like 10x better than ANY armor stacking.

Not to mention Adaptation is 1 mod slot meanwhile stacking for armor takes like half the mod slots.

Not to mention armor stacking has diminishing returns.

Not to mention 3/4 of warframes have almost no armor so armor stacking is useless on them.

Not to mention adaptation is actually awesome on many of them (as long as you dont get oneshotted and can build up DR from Adaptation).

Not to mention Adaptation DR works on shields, so Volt, Mag, Harrow, Gara, Hildryn and few more all can be awesome shield tanks. 

Not to mention armor stacking is viable on about 3? frames. Inaros/Valkyr/Grendel and even then it has diminishing returns so the difference between 2k armor and 3k is few % (aka waste of mod slost).

Its not rocket science really (but you presenting it as it was lmao).

Armor stacking does not have diminished returns. This is huge misconception. The formula for armor is = armor / armor + 300. At 2K armor you have 86.96% damage reduction. At 3K armor it is 90.91%. Small difference, right? Nope. A 100 damage hit will deal 13.04 damage on 2K armor. It is 9.09 damage at 3K armor. If you do the math = 13.04 - 9.09 / 13.04 = 30.3%. And you can do the same calculation at 4K armor, same thing. Every 1K armor increases your damage reduction by 30.3%. Or to make it simpler, your eHP went up by 30.3%.

The reason why do not stack armor cuz there is nothing to stack. Only steel and Umbra fiber (which literally cannot stack) provide any worth while value. All the remaining stuff is minuscule. Even on armor queen, Valkyr prime, you get much better value of ability strength to increase armor, after equipping Umbra fiber. If there is another mod that adds 150-200%, it will unquestionably be better on some frames than adaption.

Adaption requires to get hit 9 times to get the 90% damage reduction. With experience, that only happens to slash and impact. The biggest issue, is blast, more specifically bombards. It is one hit and they are very few of them. So adaption is not very useful against them. Armor however is always there. No build-up. Frames that are going to be one shot or near one shot by bombards, adaption wont help them. HP is more valuable. 

If there is a mod that increases armor by 150-200%, that stacks with Umbra fiber, I would use it over adaption on any frame with at least 300 armor. But there is not. Kinda same for HP. And things like gladiator mods (HP+armor) and armored agility are not worth it for defensive purposes (or much really). Of course, you need more than armor and HP, depending on your frames. As it currently stands, for good survivability on tanky frames, you go for the 3 Umbra + adaption. You do not really need more, unless you planning to stay more than 1 hour in 1 mission. And there is not more to invest in to begin with.

Fyi, check WF wiki for armor, so you do not say I making this stuff up.

Edited February 6, 2020 by (PS4)thegarada

[OGsouth]

Would much enjoy my shield frames to be more useful in high level content 👌

[(PSN)thegarada]

Suggestion, we should have a mod called armor contribution. 10 levels for it. Reduces your armor by 5% and increases shield damage reduction by 5% (50% total). This way it cannot be stacked on tanky frames for additional survivability. Frames with low armor and high shield would significantly benefit. 

[(XBOX)Duke DEFCON]

Hmm. My Hildryn is damn near unkillable at this point. Heals party health, shields and energy the way I got her set up. New mod is nice, a definite keeper, but changes nothing.

[(PSN)thegarada]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Taz Deduction said:

Hmm. My Hildryn is damn near unkillable at this point. Heals party health, shields and energy the way I got her set up. New mod is nice, a definite keeper, but changes nothing.

Would help frames like Mag and Banshee, as an example. They really struggle in post level 100 territory. Honestly, I have no idea how this will impact Harrow and Hildryn. Could they become unkillable? Is it so much different than Inaros with Umbras? Dunno for sure. I think Inaros with Umbras is more survivable than any Hildryn setup.