(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Generally speaking for new mmos or mmos in general im pretty open to the thought of an auction house and I am in favor of the idea a majority of the time. It helps with immersion somewhat and saves time and efficiency in most cases which is great . I love esos traders and somewhat enjoyed teras and black deserts trading system. The thing that most of the games don't have in common with wf however is that trading isn't with premium currency. You don't trade with crowns in eso you trade with gold. Currency you earn in game. And can't be bought using real money Same for Tera as well (but you can trade for Plat aha! You don't have to spend money) That is not entirely true however. Free Plat is not tradable and for Plat to be tradable it has to be purchased. So if with that being said someone has to spend money to keep Plat in circulation within trade chat. Having warframes current trade chat system involved with an auction house where players set prices is a very unpredictable thing to put on players in terms of supply and demand with inflation and deflation being a thing. Either way it goes it's very terrible for the economy in a whole. not just trading but actual store purchases. Inflation will cause less people being able to buy the rarer items and deflation will make common sets cheaper (yes you can get your prime sets for cheap"er") but it also would defeat the purpose of grind and actual gameplay. Why would I farm a Mesa prime set when I could get one for 50p which is the equivalent to 4.99 and still have 25p more to spend right!?! Not only that a major deflation of easy or somewhat easy to farm items like prime sets and mods and such gets devalued extremely. A primed frame and weap on release is worth about $80 on release including the plat making it worth substantially more. With an in game auction house however implemented that would allow something close to 24/7 trading items would lose value within the hours of release. Unless I specifically want the prime access what's stopping me from just waiting to get it from trade chat as mentioned for 75-100p within the next day? In turn DE looses money "but sweat.... The ftp players will profit more" If the things most ftp players want more expensive let's say a wolf sledge or the Braton vandal set is extremely marketed up to 4-5k Plat they are still not going to spend money. And yes they may get items like mods and primes for cheaper but it's less Plat made selling these items too. Market items are always going to stay the same price and don't change unless you have a coupon. Even though only certain items apply to it. The next would be wthat's need for it? The economy and current trading system is fine as is. More options to separate some things and add more qol features It's nothing wrong with it. The current trade system does what alot of you seem to hate doing interact with players. Not everyone is going to be nice and cheery and sell you things for the price you think it's worth. "But you can set the price for items! Aha!!!" At this point in warframe stripping a players ability to set the price for items wouldn't be smart. And then DE has to set a value for these things which again players could abuse in terms of profitability and the instance of 24/7 trading.whats stopping me from farming x drop x amount of times for x plat until it's saturated because it's an item in demand. On top of that you can't set a value for rng based items so easily such as rivens or kuva weapons because the rolls vary and with that being said it's no proper way to effectively balance randomness. "Yer shouldn't be able to trade rivens dur riven mafia bad" The riven mafia is nonexistent. What people neglect is that while you are complaining that said person is pricing that great gram roll for 1.2k someone has bought it or a similar role for around that price. A player ignoring you in chat isn't them being rude or wanting to haggle isn't being rude either. You don't go to the store walk up to the counter after you get $200 worth of groceries and whisper to the cashier "can I get I for $150?" NO and even if they don't have a set price and you reply with a price lower then they wanted and ignore you why is that an issue? They don't want your Plat save it and try somewhere else. Also DE said no auction house or anything like this will exist in game. Anything I miss? Or why do you feel like an auction or 24/7 or almost 24/7 trade system would work on wf 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinklzs Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: Also DE said no auction house or anything like this will exist in game. For those wanting a citation, here ya go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken-Biryani Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: Generally speaking for new mmos or mmos in general im pretty open to the thought of an auction house and I am in favor of the idea a majority of the time. It helps with immersion somewhat and saves time and efficiency in most cases which is great . I love esos traders and somewhat enjoyed teras and black deserts trading system. The thing that most of the games don't have in common with wf however is that trading isn't with premium currency. You don't trade with crowns in eso you trade with gold. Currency you earn in game. And can't be bought using real money Same for Tera as well (but you can trade for Plat aha! You don't have to spend money) That is not entirely true however. Free Plat is not tradable and for Plat to be tradable it has to be purchased. So if with that being said someone has to spend money to keep Plat in circulation within trade chat. Having warframes current trade chat system involved with an auction house where players set prices is a very unpredictable thing to put on players in terms of supply and demand with inflation and deflation being a thing. Either way it goes it's very terrible for the economy in a whole. not just trading but actual store purchases. Inflation will cause less people being able to buy the rarer items and deflation will make common sets cheaper (yes you can get your prime sets for cheap"er") but it also would defeat the purpose of grind and actual gameplay. Why would I farm a Mesa prime set when I could get one for 50p which is the equivalent to 4.99 and still have 25p more to spend right!?! Not only that a major deflation of easy or somewhat easy to farm items like prime sets and mods and such gets devalued extremely. A primed frame and weap on release is worth about $80 on release including the plat making it worth substantially more. With an in game auction house however implemented that would allow something close to 24/7 trading items would lose value within the hours of release. Unless I specifically want the prime access what's stopping me from just waiting to get it from trade chat as mentioned for 75-100p within the next day? In turn DE looses money "but sweat.... The ftp players will profit more" If the things most ftp players want more expensive let's say a wolf sledge or the Braton vandal set is extremely marketed up to 4-5k Plat they are still not going to spend money. And yes they may get items like mods and primes for cheaper but it's less Plat made selling these items too. Market items are always going to stay the same price and don't change unless you have a coupon. Even though only certain items apply to it. The next would be wthat's need for it? The economy and current trading system is fine as is. More options to separate some things and add more qol features It's nothing wrong with it. The current trade system does what alot of you seem to hate doing interact with players. Not everyone is going to be nice and cheery and sell you things for the price you think it's worth. "But you can set the price for items! Aha!!!" At this point in warframe stripping a players ability to set the price for items wouldn't be smart. And then DE has to set a value for these things which again players could abuse in terms of profitability and the instance of 24/7 trading.whats stopping me from farming x drop x amount of times for x plat until it's saturated because it's an item in demand. On top of that you can't set a value for rng based items so easily such as rivens or kuva weapons because the rolls vary and with that being said it's no proper way to effectively balance randomness. "Yer shouldn't be able to trade rivens dur riven mafia bad" The riven mafia is nonexistent. What people neglect is that while you are complaining that said person is pricing that great gram roll for 1.2k someone has bought it or a similar role for around that price. A player ignoring you in chat isn't them being rude or wanting to haggle isn't being rude either. You don't go to the store walk up to the counter after you get $200 worth of groceries and whisper to the cashier "can I get I for $150?" NO and even if they don't have a set price and you reply with a price lower then they wanted and ignore you why is that an issue? They don't want your Plat save it and try somewhere else. Also DE said no auction house or anything like this will exist in game. Anything I miss? Or why do you feel like an auction or 24/7 or almost 24/7 trade system would work on wf People have a thin skin most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firetempest Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 The economy of WF deals with a practically infinite supply and a finite demand. Once you have the thing you need, you never need said thing ever again. Stable automated bulk trades for years here require a much larger output of junk. A quarterly output of primes is not much stuff. There are few perpetually useful items for trade but they are all forms of currency. Endo, credits, plat. A stable economy requires loss and infinite demand. Over time it takes more and more prime parts for an equal value of plat from years past. The spikes of value only being the opening week of any prime access. The prime vault is a bandaid that caps that infinite supply but there are still huge stockpiles. All this leads to longer farms for free to play users for useful amounts of plat for DEs market. And shorter periods of profits for sellers due to ease of listing and undercutting. The market is already a mess with a huge discrepancy between player value and DE value. A auction house just speeds up the decline. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) I disagree with most of what OP said, the last part about players ignoring your offer is just business and personal preference, I usually reply with a no, don't particularly have any opinions about that part. Let us first separate the different purposes of trade (and indirectly plat), not chat trade or auction house trade, just trade. 1) To support DE by enabling a reason to purchase more plat. 2) To enable people with less time a means to acquire difficult to acquire objects. This is the essence of the trade system. If one person buys the 1kp bundle it is the same as a 10 people buying the 100p one for DE and covers point 1, The current trade chat is quite exhausting, staring at a screen hoping someone also sees your own ads before he blinks is not my cup of tea. Having an auction house would make 2 much more easier to meet, and unless DE releases a data of the players purchasing trends (I doubt they would it is financial info afterall) I won't be able to comment about 1, but a % fee on the final rates would help create a sink as well, the % could be variable subject to the actual object under question. A newly released prime may have a larger %, while a previous one could be lower. Edited January 31, 2020 by 0_The_F00l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syasob Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: snip Could you please TL;DR or something? 24 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: You don't trade with crowns in eso you trade with gold. Actually the real difference between ESO or BDO and Warframe is supply to demand ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: The thing that most of the games don't have in common with wf however is that trading isn't with premium currency. EVE Online does it, and quite successfully. 36 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: Having warframes current trade chat system involved with an auction house where players set prices is a very unpredictable thing to put on players in terms of supply and demand with inflation and deflation being a thing. Then it's a good thing an AH would not only make trading easier for players, it would also give DE tools to affect the economy directly, allowing them to combat any such developments as they occur and keep the economy stable. As opposed to the current situation, where the only tool they have is adjusting drop rates and where the introduction of third-party tools like warframe.market, riven.market, and the various trading Discord servers has had a major impact on the game's economy without DE being able to do a damn thing about it. 36 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: The economy and current trading system is fine as is. That's the kind of mindset that leads to stagnation. In the entire gaming industry, I can't think of another company less inclined to leave things alone because they're fine as they are than DE. 36 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: DE said no auction house or anything like this will exist in game. DE also said no vacuum on pets would exist in the game. They said that for what, four years? Five? Is there a single person who thinks the game is worse now that they've finally caved? Edited January 31, 2020 by SordidDreams 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 36 minutes ago, SordidDreams said: Then it's a good thing an AH would not only make trading easier for players, it would also give DE tools to affect the economy directly, allowing them to combat any such developments as they occur and keep the economy stable. As opposed to the current situation, where the only tool they have is adjusting drop rates and where the introduction of third-party tools like warframe.market, riven.market, and the various trading Discord servers has had a major impact on the game's economy without DE being able to do a damn thing about it Provide an example of how introducing ah in warframes current State would help stabilize the economy and the 4 different economies across all platforms. Third party sites like warframe market and riven sites along with discords are mainly used by the pc crowd and don't Hold much weight outside those who use it. they haven't made such a huge impact as you think as effectively more people don't use these sites then do and prefer actual Ingame chat then going to a third party site to do such As I've stated the trade chat is fine as is and thats not the mindset of me but therese nothing wrong with it. To trade you have to be actively wanting to trade for the most part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 "but, this one youtuber said-" ^I actually saw this in Region once, in regards to this topic. just so you know what we're dealing with when it comes to people wanting an AH. and this is why I avoid Region like the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 43 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said: If one person buys the 1kp bundle it is the same as a 10 people buying the 100p one for DE and covers point 1, One person buying 1kplat is $50 Vs 170 Plat to get to 1k will cost you effectively $60 while this isn't a big difference and a game Company may make profit doing things in the sake of profit isn't always the best solution. Either way an auction house spins would require more Plat to be bought within the game and thats a major turn off for ftp players wanting to trade. What would you tell them "go sit in old trade chat?" No its not acceptable at all 47 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said: The current trade chat is quite exhausting, staring at a screen hoping someone also sees your own ads before he blinks is not my cup of tea. Having an auction house would make 2 much more easier to meet, and unless DE releases a data of the players purchasing trends (I doubt they would it is financial info afterall) I won't be able to comment about 1, but a % fee on the final rates would help create a sink as well, the % could be variable subject to the actual object under question. A newly released prime may have a larger %, while a previous one could be lower. Trading isn't always supposed to be 24/7 easy access at the same time. I'm all for qol improvements for the game especially in terms of trading but again with the current ecosystem of Plat within the game it's just not smart to add an auction house this late. It's all about supply vs demand and also the longevity of the game. On average in an hour or two in trade chat it would yield me on a bad day 300-400p and on a great day sometimes 900-1k in three or four hours. I don't know man I just can't see it being too beneficial to the game at the state it's in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Syasob said: Could you please TL;DR or something? Actually the real difference between ESO or BDO and Warframe is supply to demand ratio. You can't buy gold with crowns or real life money from eso or BDO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syasob Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: You can't buy gold with crowns or real life money from eso or BDO You're joking, right? Chat in ESO is full of 'WTS/WTB crowns'. Guess what people are selling their crowns for? In BDO items from prem shop can simply be sold via auction almost instantly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)AyinDygra Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Current trade only benefits those who are willing to suffer through trade chat, or go outside of the game to 3rd party websites, etc, and are able to be online and NOT playing the game, ready to drop whatever they're doing at the first nibble at whatever method they're using to try to contact buyers, or risk them moving on to the next most accessible seller. The people who have jobs and actually buy plat often don't have the time to suffer through trade chat or play 24/7 to be online at just the right time. (I'm one of the people who buys plat, and started out F2P entirely, relying upon winning plat from giveaways for early slots, otherwise I'd have quit the game - trade did NOT work for me as a newbie, nor for me years later as a vet ) So the current system creates a fragile bubble of false scarcity inflating prices (that benefits me as a seller), but also keeps out a vast majority of players who don't even bother with the options available (I'm on PS4, and use warframe.market - I NEVER haggle... I just list buy-out prices, and sell when someone is willing to pay the price I listed. Hagglers get sent packing.) If Warframe.market didn't exist, I wouldn't trade at all. All of my plat would go to slots/cosmetics. I come from old-school RPGaming where you would grind for the stuff you wanted, so I generally won't buy anything from other players if I can get it myself through my own effort. There are exceptions, when I've bought Archwing weapon parts, one piece of a prime frame that I just couldn't get... things for a friend. Even *I* can see that the current prices are stupid, and that people who argue against an "Auction House" are people that benefit from the currently artificially inflated prices. The normalization of prices that would come with a Marketplace would likely see a drop in prices that would negatively impact those who currently think trading is "fine." (a supposed market "crash") This system creates a small subset of people who have items with plat value who trade plat with other players who trade, passing it around for items... and a vast majority of players who will never engage with trading, and all of their stuff having zero plat value. A Marketplace that allows the "vast majority" of currently non-traders to finally sell their stuff, would give them value to their grind. Many/most of those non-traders are also Free-to-players who will likely spend their earnings on slots and stuff from the game's market, thus draining that plat out of the system, rather than being spread around among players. To go from having no hope of ever having plat, to suddenly being able to put stuff up on a marketplace to sell while they can't be online, or while they're actually enjoying playing the game, would be a massive quality of life boon that current traders struggle to comprehend the import of. A properly designed Marketplace won't have as big of a negative impact as the chicken-littles predict about the market crash that would accompany its introduction. The fact that Warframe uses a premium currency purchased with real money makes it SUPERIOR and LESS prone to market forces that doom games that use infinitely farmable in-game currencies like gold or credits. You can't farm infinite plat by just playing the game. That keeps "mud-flation" from skyrocketing prices out of the stratosphere. (I ran a MUD 20 years ago, so I've been watching MANY games with MANY versions of economies, and Auction Houses/Marketplaces are NOT what ruin economies from my observations.) As I've posted in the past, I'd add a searchable Marketplace with: 5-6 trades per day (based on MR, but a subset of total trades you can do per day, letting you do other trades up to your current MR trade limit outside of the automated system.) 100ducats per listing, no matter the cost of the item Listings last 1 week Changes to price cost 10 ducats. All prices are "buy-out" prices. If you run out of trades per day, your items no longer appear in the marketplace search. Price histories are available tracing back at least 1 year, listing buyer/seller names and amounts of plat - with warframe.market style graph views for analysis. Potentially, able to list WTB listings, where you deposit the plat you're willing to spend, and if someone has the item, and wants that much plat, they fill your buy order (can cancel at any time and retrieve your plat.) The listing fee in DUCATS is extremely important. It bypasses the bad feeling of a "Plat Tax", but that's essentially what it equates to, since you could have sold the prime parts that you convert into ducats for plat, through non-automated trades. This creates a "floor" value of the items you're trying to sell through the marketplace... is it WORTH 100 ducats to list your item? This stops the downward spiral to things only being listed for 1plat, because 100 ducats is worth a lot more than 1plat to me, at least. This also creates an item-sink that will limit supply of items that are actually listed on the marketplace - you have to convert prime parts into ducats to even use the automated system. The so-called "finite" demand for things is curbed, because there will now be a near-infinite demand for prime parts to be converted into ducats... and the fee in Ducats can be changed over time by DE to help moderate this, if needed. The listings lasting only 1 week is important as well. Combined with the listing fee in Ducats, this will limit the outrageous prices that some people would try to list some items for... but if they don't sell within a week... they'd have to waste the listing fee all over again... so they'll be incentivized to list items at reasonable prices that won't waste their listing fees. The limit of trades per day is important, so it doesn't open up the entire inventory of everything that everyone has duplicates of that they want to just put up on the marketplace and forget about it. They'll also have to think carefully about which items they want to put up on the marketplace, to get the most value out of each daily slot. This will also help create a "floor" in people's minds, as each slot has value per day. The price history is important to help players have a historical record of completed sales, to see the real-world value of their items, rather than asking for a "Price Check" over chat, and get lies by people trying to manipulate them. This holds many people back from trading at all... the fear of being taken advantage of, or not wanting to look like they're gouging. The detailed record of buyers and sellers will help people spot people who are trying to manipulate the prices of items by creating a false record of the price of items. It would take a massive number of people to manipulate the prices (and waste their 5-6 trades per day enmass)... and they'd have to be extremely well orchestrated to avoid people recognizing patterns of people selling back and forth to each other, or to other members of their group. A well-designed marketplace will not lead to an inevitable downward spiral of prices down to 1 plat, leaving F2P players out in the cold. It would give value to everybody's grinds, and put everyone on equal footing when it comes to buying and selling from others, regardless of how much time they have to play Warframe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Syasob said: Chat in ESO is full of 'WTS/WTB crowns'. Guess what people are selling their crowns for? In eso it's as effective as wtb 75% coupon or the gift an item to them not officially supported nor reccomened by zenimax or Bethesda also to mention you can't directly gift crowns to players at least on console Similar situation you use the premium currency to buy said item but auction it off for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 42 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: One person buying 1kplat is $50 Vs 170 Plat to get to 1k will cost you effectively $60 while this isn't a big difference and a game Company may make profit doing things in the sake of profit isn't always the best solution. I only used the numbers for example, not sure what point you are trying to make with this statement honestly, If I only need 170 Plat to get what I want so I spent 10$ for it, 9 others like me can see in the auction house things that would have otherwise been missed in trade chat. DE makes plat, I get what I wanted. How is that a bad thing? 51 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: . Either way an auction house spins would require more Plat to be bought within the game and thats a major turn off for ftp players wanting to trade. I really don't see the logic you are trying to put forth. If the rates would be lower as you have said with regards to the economy changes, the players would need to trade fewer items to acquire the plat for the things they do want. They would make more Plat trades of lower value. The FTP players can keep doing what they are currently doing without touching trade if they want, dont really see how they are negatively affected. 56 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: . What would you tell them "go sit in old trade chat?" No its not acceptable at all I would tell them the same thing I tell them now, sell your prime junk and high MR rivens to invest towards slots, Made easier through AH. Its acceptable for me, you can choose not to accept what you want, just don't assume you speak for everyone. 1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: Trading isn't always supposed to be 24/7 easy access at the same time. Why not? Cause you say so? 1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: . I'm all for qol improvements for the game especially in terms of trading but again with the current ecosystem of Plat within the game it's just not smart to add an auction house this late. It's all about supply vs demand and also the longevity of the game. On average in an hour or two in trade chat it would yield me on a bad day 300-400p and on a great day sometimes 900-1k in three or four hours. I don't know man I just can't see it being too beneficial to the game at the state it's in Ah now I see the problem, you are one of the few that benefits from the ignorance of players and have taken to plat acquisition as a means to determine your success in the game. What you don't want to see is your personal Plat profits plunging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blexander Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Did anybody mention that an actual auction house would the issue of "underselling the same item by 1" as nearly all AHs do? From what I know, and have experienced, people always look for the lowest price (big shocker) and trading chat operates as a free market of sorts. I get people who want an AH, it makes trading easier, nobody wants to sit trading chat for hours/days looking for the right WTB/WTS and then being fast enough or cheap enough. But the system doesn't need a change as of right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)The Neko Otaku Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) The thing i fear if an auction house implemented in warframe is that it will just turn into a game of keep dropping the price so you can sell an item to the point of a recent prime set of a month ago is 5p cause of everyone undercutting eachother. Plus i see auction house as the "I'm too lazy and have no social skill to bargain with others" i like the social aspect of the trade chat, because I've been nice to people or just offered them better prices I've gotten good deals from people being thankful, like recent example somone looking for arcane from the vendors (hok or zuud) so i throw 80p to him and he gives an extra 80p cause everyone else was charging him 200p for someone reason. I see no fun in posting up page of items and prices and waiting for a transaction to never come. I like looking at trade pass by observing what people want, what people are selling, what prices are acceptable, throwing an offer to someone hoping you got to him first or someone else didn't give him a better deal. Trade chat it's is own game that's intimidating but with patience you can get into the flow easily. Edited January 31, 2020 by (XB1)The Neko Otaku 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TearsOfTomorrow Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said: The current trade chat is quite exhausting, staring at a screen hoping someone also sees your own ads before he blinks is not my cup of tea. For the millionth time, THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. An auction house is a terribile ideas from an economic standpoint, for reasons that have been explained multiple times. I myself have written many walls of text in many topics on the matter, and frankly now I don't feel like repeating myself: go hunt those post down or something. The short version is, an auction house creates a situation where the top stuff (Arcane Energize, rivens etc) cost thousands and thousands of plat, because hoarders can set high prices for them and then bidding makes them go even higher... And meanwhile, everything else costs 1 plat, because noobs are trying to out-cheap each other in order to attract bidders, without realizing that not many people are going to bid for a Braton Prime or a Hunter Adrenalin, because most players already have those. Meaning, the prices can't climb back up. Meaning, low-end players (the majority) have no way of earning reasonable amounts of plat from their standard gameplay experience. MEANING, such players are FORCED to invest more and more real money in order to afford not only the high-end stuff, but also the essentials from DE's own market (slots, potatoes, boosters etc), whose prices are set in stone. The only way of averting this issue is for DE to adjust the prices of their own market to go with the fluctuations of the player market, but that's something they'll NEVER EVER EVER do, because it would hurt their bottom line and because they have made it perfectly clear, multiple times in fact, that they don't endorse player trading. For this reason, an auction house can never work. Saying "ok but the current system sucks" is a very stupid thing to do, because... Well, because we all know the current system sucks. But that doesn't change the fact that an auction house is an EVEN WORSE idea, so saying "as long as something changes I'm fine with anything" is a very dangerous mindset. Because guess what? Turns out, replacing a bad thing with a worse one does not result in an improvement of the game as a whole. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: For the millionth time, THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. It is my personal observation and preference, if you enjoy staring a small screen all day long then I am not going to stop you. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: .An auction house is a terribile ideas from an economic standpoint, for reasons that have been explained multiple times. I myself have written many walls of text in many topics on the matter, and frankly now I don't feel like repeating myself: go hunt those post down or something. So you don't want to write more, but you write more anyway maybe stick to what you actually want to do? I did see your posts actually and the most prominent argument you make is : 1)DE won't do it cause they said they won't. 2)It will crash the economy making things both expensive (for the rare things) and cheap (for the more common things) at the same time. Which you mention below. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: . The short version is, an auction house creates a situation where the top stuff (Arcane Energize, rivens etc) cost thousands and thousands of plat, because hoarders can set high prices for them and then bidding makes them go even higher... This is your assumption, I don't see why someone could not apply the option of selling stuff for lower Plat than the said hoarders. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: ... And meanwhile, everything else costs 1 plat, because noobs are trying to out-cheap each other in order to attract bidders, without realizing that not many people are going to bid for a Braton Prime or a Hunter Adrenalin, because most players already have those. Meaning, the prices can't climb back up. Meaning, low-end players (the majority) have no way of earning reasonable amounts of plat from their standard gameplay experience. MEANING, such players are FORCED to invest more and more real money in order to afford not only the high-end stuff, but also the essentials from DE's own market (slots, potatoes, boosters etc), whose prices are set in stone. Bull pie on a dusty ground, Nothing more than an assumption on flawed foundation built with weak arguments. Your Assumption : The AH will have no low limit to enter. I have suggested a fee, you won't be able to make the prices lower than a certain point Your Foundation: the item will stay on the AH indefinitely with no one buying it, if you are going to put out something really cheap it will be bough out almost immediately, the ones that stay indefinitely will be the ridiculous and the unwanted. Your argument : earning plat is the objective of the trade which will not be possible or be severely limited with an AH, I do not agree with this reason of having to trade, plat is to be used to skip grind to actually enjoy the game not to show how successful you are at trading. You seem to have confused the means with the ends. Perhaps read my very first comment in the topic. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: . The only way of averting this issue is for DE to adjust the prices of their own market to go with the fluctuations of the player market, but that's something they'll NEVER EVER EVER do, because it would hurt their bottom line and because they have made it perfectly clear, multiple times in fact, that they don't endorse player trading. DE can change their mind, they have done so in the past as well as more recently with the suggested lich changes, I would not Bank on "DE said they wouldn't". Again there is no issue, it's just your assumption that it will be bad. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: For this reason, an auction house can never work. That's your opinion, I disagree with it. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: . Saying "ok but the current system sucks" is a very stupid thing to do, because... Well, because we all know the current system sucks. But that doesn't change the fact that an auction house is an EVEN WORSE idea, so saying "as long as something changes I'm fine with anything" is a very dangerous mindset. So you are the type that's gonna go "this is fine" instead of offering alternatives. Constructive criticism with active suggestions for improvements is what is needed instead of shooting down ideas cause you are afraid of change. 1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: Because guess what? Turns out, replacing a bad thing with a worse one does not result in an improvement of the game as a whole. Again it's your opinion that it will be worse than the current situation, I disagree with your opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said: I only used the numbers for example, not sure what point you are trying to make with this statement honestly, If I only need 170 Plat to get what I want so I spent 10$ for it, 9 others like me can see in the auction house things that would have otherwise been missed in trade chat. DE makes plat, I get what I wanted. How is that a bad thing? I really don't see the logic you are trying to put forth. If the rates would be lower as you have said with regards to the economy changes, the players would need to trade fewer items to acquire the plat for the things they do want. They would make more Plat trades of lower value. The FTP players can keep doing what they are currently doing without touching trade if they want, dont really see how they are negatively affected. I would tell them the same thing I tell them now, sell your prime junk and high MR rivens to invest towards slots, Made easier through AH. Its acceptable for me, you can choose not to accept what you want, just don't assume you speak for everyone. Why not? Cause you say so? Ah now I see the problem, you are one of the few that benefits from the ignorance of players and have taken to plat acquisition as a means to determine your success in the game. What you don't want to see is your personal Plat profits plunging. The Thing is the cheaper items are from trade chat thats great again market items actually stay the same price ultimately still requiring people to shell out more money Likley for simplistic items such as forma etc for example as I mentioned in an example what if this drops the price of an entire set of let's say limbo and his weapons down to a total of 100p great! You're only sitting on -70 p generally speaking for not just me but I've known alot of people to wait the 24/for crafting but skip the three days because time gating is abysmal you're now at 20p for limbo and the destreza leaving you enough for a potato or a gold potato if you don't farm them actively or have them crafted up. Which not everyone does and naturally prices for long valued sets and rarer items will rise due to the fact that warframe runs on a.finite demand system. The typical player only needs a weapon or frame once and a mod possibly twice. What happens when everyone has these common sets? Surely you can't say warframe pulls in enough new players to maintain this. Leaving the new auction house as empty as before with higher prices than before requiring people to spend more money on the game than before. I'm providing an actual example of how the numbers work it's not DE gets money simple end all be all. It's also about accessabililty to a point prices are cheaper then ever for easy to obtain items. Why should I play the game and farm when I can get alot of things I need for trade chat in significantly less time and effort just requiring a cheaper investment. Yes the current system is frustrating at times but trading again isn't meant to always be easy and based on the current economy not just on pc but Xbox ps4 and nsw all with different players and different values to items to an extent isn't a wise idea to change so late because of the factor that people have Plat stored up the difference in cost already beteween platforms the activity of trade chat and or trade in general across platform and a couple of other key factors heck many factors. Also another example would be base off of your system. In general the most profitable parts of trading generally is primes correct? With ductats being the tax of said implemented system and what's Likley going to sell for a reasonable price would be common items unless you're shorting yourself and selling uncommons and rares which would sell for more at this point an honest assumption based on how prices mark up during scarcity would be anywhere from 100-500% depending on how hard to get or how rare the item is very feasible and would make more sense to keep those items. But it would spend just as long if not longer in trade chat then now because effectively rarer items cost more. Plat still cost the same and is valued the same. People spend more time in the game for less potential profit yield and overall it'd not affective because of how trade has been and is also because trading is tied into a premium currency which isn't a bad thing but does not tend to work well with many games or the devs are blatantly scummy about it. I saw someone say eve online and This is the first forum post that I saw searching auction house. shorty down the line I see a common trend the auction only being really profitable inside the forums I made an account and I'm going to try to talk to a couple of eve players about how they feel about the auction System as well as I don't believe it's fair to just take it as bad off of a few forum posts and say it's that. And to your second point yes and no. The market still is the same price. In actuality with prices dropping players will have to spend more time in general to get things like skins boosters and more my friend who's completely ftp saved up I'd say 3 weeks of trade chat to buy the Fortuna and lich hunter bundles effectively 1600+p farmed there selling just primed sets and weapons. With your suggested method the yield would be less and with the market staying the same price for everything tell me do you think he'd have Had an easier time gaining Plat? With the new system it even further bases on the idea that new players will use the trade chat to get items like fast primes etc etc mods and other items while most players who have these things and have no need are just... There same as now the only difference is things sell for cheaper so "Horray!??" Alot of ftp players benifit greatly from the current prices of things being able to do alot with the sale of certain primes sets common or not. Before I stopped playing I saw people selling frames like Mesa etc for 100-120p equinox for 100-150 selling both those sets a Max price as mentioned yields you 270 Plat allowing you get get a frame and a weapon or a deccent frame from the trade chat Or a skin a nice booster more ikea frame vanity items. A deluxe skin and many other things in market. It's made more time consuming and harder once applied. Personally id like to see sets count as one item so you could sell 5 sets of an item at once and you could sell let's say 5 mods in one slot. Things like that would be nice to see. Not at all looking at actual economies and how real life money effects things also in general it's never safe to completely change the entire economy of anything so abrupt after years. Especially if it's not really failing. Again I buy prime access and did for the past 4-5 times theyve been released Mesa zephyr chroma wukong atlas and prime unvaultings. I'm not in dire need of Plat and never been because in general I horde Plat and overall can be considered a whale with the amount of money I'd spend on wf. The new system would benefit me greatly as a whale if I'm shooting for getting common items for the cheap but I have In general most common items and even though inflation I could afford most rarer items without a sweat. just because it benefits me dosent mean it's great For the game. Nice assumption though. Make it seem like I'm some sort of greedy monster when I'm just a lazy baztard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 50 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said: It is my personal observation and preference, if you enjoy staring a small screen all day long then I am not going to stop you. So you don't want to write more, but you write more anyway maybe stick to what you actually want to do? I did see your posts actually and the most prominent argument you make is : 1)DE won't do it cause they said they won't. 2)It will crash the economy making things both expensive (for the rare things) and cheap (for the more common things) at the same time. Which you mention below. This is your assumption, I don't see why someone could not apply the option of selling stuff for lower Plat than the said hoarders. Bull pie on a dusty ground, Nothing more than an assumption on flawed foundation built with weak arguments. Your Assumption : The AH will have no low limit to enter. I have suggested a fee, you won't be able to make the prices lower than a certain point Your Foundation: the item will stay on the AH indefinitely with no one buying it, if you are going to put out something really cheap it will be bough out almost immediately, the ones that stay indefinitely will be the ridiculous and the unwanted. Your argument : earning plat is the objective of the trade which will not be possible or be severely limited with an AH, I do not agree with this reason of having to trade, plat is to be used to skip grind to actually enjoy the game not to show how successful you are at trading. You seem to have confused the means with the ends. Perhaps read my very first comment in the topic. DE can change their mind, they have done so in the past as well as more recently with the suggested lich changes, I would not Bank on "DE said they wouldn't". Again there is no issue, it's just your assumption that it will be bad. That's your opinion, I disagree with it. So you are the type that's gonna go "this is fine" instead of offering alternatives. Constructive criticism with active suggestions for improvements is what is needed instead of shooting down ideas cause you are afraid of change. Again it's your opinion that it will be worse than the current situation, I disagree with your opinion. No of what he's saying is just bull. Ignorant aren't we? Its his opinion and I do see that you do disagree with it but no need to get pushy Man. Geez. Regardless offering up valid reasons as to why an auction house is needed and the arguments made against it are going in a loop. You're not trying to listen to the reasons as to why were against it. You offered a fee based on ductats. For this to work we need another way that ductats are earned because with a tax via ductats you have to more then Likley sell the items that will actually sell due to undercutting other players for profit etc and you won't want to sell expensive and rare items due to them being of more value. His argument isn't wrong however. Earning Plat is the obj of the trade and in turn you use Plat to save time and get thing you enjoy. And telling people how or what they should be doing eh? Not smart. It's a broad game some players enjoy feeling good about trades as so do people in the stocks they actively enjoy the stock market and trading there is nothing wrong with it and some people actually do it for enjoyment. I'm well aware that DE can change their mind but if they do I don't see an auction house being implemented going well in any way shape or forum. Especially the way you mentioned it. We can disagree and thats fine in short but why do you disagree is the question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, TearsOfTomorrow said: For the millionth time, THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. An auction house is a terribile ideas from an economic standpoint, for reasons that have been explained multiple times. I myself have written many walls of text in many topics on the matter, and frankly now I don't feel like repeating myself: go hunt those post down or something. The short version is, an auction house creates a situation where the top stuff (Arcane Energize, rivens etc) cost thousands and thousands of plat, because hoarders can set high prices for them and then bidding makes them go even higher... And meanwhile, everything else costs 1 plat, because noobs are trying to out-cheap each other in order to attract bidders, without realizing that not many people are going to bid for a Braton Prime or a Hunter Adrenalin, because most players already have those. Meaning, the prices can't climb back up. Meaning, low-end players (the majority) have no way of earning reasonable amounts of plat from their standard gameplay experience. MEANING, such players are FORCED to invest more and more real money in order to afford not only the high-end stuff, but also the essentials from DE's own market (slots, potatoes, boosters etc), whose prices are set in stone. The only way of averting this issue is for DE to adjust the prices of their own market to go with the fluctuations of the player market, but that's something they'll NEVER EVER EVER do, because it would hurt their bottom line and because they have made it perfectly clear, multiple times in fact, that they don't endorse player trading. For this reason, an auction house can never work. Saying "ok but the current system sucks" is a very stupid thing to do, because... Well, because we all know the current system sucks. But that doesn't change the fact that an auction house is an EVEN WORSE idea, so saying "as long as something changes I'm fine with anything" is a very dangerous mindset. Because guess what? Turns out, replacing a bad thing with a worse one does not result in an improvement of the game as a whole. Common mods/prime sets are already under 10 plat. Braton Prime set is under 10 plat, Hunter Adrenaline can already be bought for 1 plat. "Low end" players have no access to making plat, because the highest plat items are extremely rare mods, some of which are tied to events (weeping wounds) or being around for the right baro (some primed mods), arcanes that are tied to content they wouldn't even be able to farm, and rivens for specific weapons, or dumping a billion Kuva to get good rivens. There's a reason why trade chat is mainly riven spam, there's very little worth even selling. Inexperienced players also wouldn't know of Warframe.Market to sell their low value items, and since they're new, it's not as if they can go out of their way to sell prime parts either. I'm also not sure why people like pretending DE is against an AH over concerns with the economy. It's already beyond trash, so bad that it manages to be so much worse than severe inflation that occurs on traditional Korean MMORPGs. If they cared about the economy, they would stop tanking veiled riven mods, which make the already mediocre sortie rewards, even worse. At one point getting veiled pistol or kitgun rivens weren't bad, pistol was ~40 plat earlier last year, and kitguns almost 100 plat, but then came DE with their here's free veiled rivens multiple times, and now both are ~10 plat each. Nightwave hurt easy methods of farming plat, all drift mods are now worth nothing compared to 30 plat per Power Drift. DE doesn't want an AH, because simply adding an AH isn't enough, all it would do is show the truth about how impossible it is for a typical player to legitimately earn plat unless they already own everything. DE would have to rethink their reward structure, and create an economy with goods that are in constant demand, rather than the typical get once and no longer need. That sort of economy functions (barely) when you create a trade system that intentionally keeps most people from trading in the first place; which allows DE to forever pat themselves on the back with the claims their economy is the fairest out of all f2p games, which is a good lie for people who haven't played many games. I've seen fairer economies from MMORPGs. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)sweatshawp Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Yamazuki said: Common mods/prime sets are already under 10 plat. Braton Prime set is under 10 plat, Hunter Adrenaline can already be bought for 1 plat. "Low end" players have no access to making plat, because the highest plat items are extremely rare mods, some of which are tied to events (weeping wounds) or being around for the right baro (some primed mods), arcanes that are tied to content they wouldn't even be able to farm, and rivens for specific weapons, or dumping a billion Kuva to get good rivens. There's a reason why trade chat is mainly riven spam, there's very little worth even selling. Inexperienced players also wouldn't know of Warframe.Market to sell their low value items, and since they're new, it's not as if they can go out of their way to sell prime parts either. I'm also not sure why people like pretending DE is against an AH over concerns with the economy. It's already beyond trash, so bad that it manages to be so much worse than severe inflation that occurs on traditional Korean MMORPGs. If they cared about the economy, they would stop tanking veiled riven mods, which make the already mediocre sortie rewards, even worse. At one point getting veiled pistol or kitgun rivens weren't bad, pistol was ~40 plat earlier last year, and kitguns almost 100 plat, but then came DE with their here's free veiled rivens multiple times, and now both are ~10 plat each. Nightwave hurt easy methods of farming plat, all drift mods are now worth nothing compared to 30 plat per Power Drift. DE doesn't want an AH, because simply adding an AH isn't enough, all it would do is show the truth about how impossible it is for a typical player to legitimately earn plat unless they already own everything. DE would have to rethink their reward structure, and create an economy with goods that are in constant demand, rather than the typical get once and no longer need. That sort of economy functions (barely) when you create a trade system that intentionally keeps most people from trading in the first place; which allows DE to forever pat themselves on the back with the claims their economy is the fairest out of all f2p games, which is a good lie for people who haven't played many games. I've seen fairer economies from MMORPGs. I like your explanation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 28 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: -snip- Not gonna quote indvidually as there a lot that is speckled across what I am not suggesting ducats as fee, not sure where you got that from. My preference is a scaling % of plat that goes into the sink thereby countering part of the inflation. Recently released / vaulted relics and Primes have a higher percentage, mods have a low one, Baro items /weapons have a slightly higher one, this is already in game as credit tax. As to the friend of yours that farmed 1600p for the cosmetic bundle, I would suggest he find a job instead. Harsh perhaps, but I honestly don't care about how much it will affect your fashion frame , as a matter of fact, I would like it if traded plat cannot be used for purchasing cosmetics - its my opinion and need not be actually implemented or affect this discussion, just want to make it clear that cosmetic plats will not be effective for convincing me, it is the one of the few plat sinks in the game to control inflation. Also can you tell me the amount of hours he spent to get all that and the time it took to sell all of it? If we are talking about convenience of getting plat, we need to know if he would have been better off doing a part time job for a few hours instead of spending time "working" on a game. The market items that "need plat" would be the slots, maybe forma and potatoes if not stocked. You either grind the game to get them or you pay to skip the grind. Its odd that you used limbo as an example, he actually has a relatively interesting quest to get the parts. I haven't played eve, so I do not know how good or bad it is from the auction house perspective. I do get the other side of the argument "the same quantity of plat will be harder to acquire " this is partially true, but again the game is warframe, not plat trader simulator, the objective of my suggestion is to make it easier for players to get stuff they need, not for players to show off their trading skills. As to my "pushiness" I do not mind if someone disagrees with what I think, two people can have differing opinions. But presenting your opinions as if they were facts while treating others like idiots is something I greatly dislike. Especially when based purely on assumptions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)guzmantt1977 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said: I saw someone say eve online and This is the first forum post that I saw searching auction house. shorty down the line I see a common trend the auction only being really profitable inside the forums I made an account and I'm going to try to talk to a couple of eve players about how they feel about the auction System as well as I don't believe it's fair to just take it as bad off of a few forum posts and say it's that. Skip it. Eve Online's economic system is one where stuff can degrade and be lost for various reasons. It's such a fundamental part of how things work that people sell insurance policies to other players. There are valid reasons to want to own multiple copies of your items, if you are able to afford them. Warframe doesn't have that sort of recurring demand. We don't use up, break or need to replace the vast majority of items we can own. What works well for Eve, won't work well for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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