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Discussion on Cross Save

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What I get from it is, due to budget, they fought to get the 1 guy.. where as that was inadvisable. For folks like yourselves, they want it to happen, and that's not gonna be an easy ask. Regardless, they're gonna chip at it and see if it can't happen eventually.

Edited by kapn655321
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On 2020-01-25 at 3:05 PM, Gama. said:

I wish DE would implement Cross save i have spent over 6+ years playing warframe on the PC and the Majority of my friends play on Xbox which i have to re-do all the content over again and again. Its so Tedious DE if your reading please make this your priority. Cross Save should already be here given the amount of players you have and the fact most titles now are Cross save or Cross play.   

if your not able to implement Cross save then just allow us the option to create a clone of our account to Xbox or something like you did for the Nintendo Switch.  

 

Opposite issue here. The game plays like butter on my PC, but it still feels like S#&$ when I look at something new and know that i'd have to redo S#&$ I've done a thousand times to get there.

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I read in an article that DE is working on cross save and wanted to hear ideas from the community to see if anyone had some that could make the task easier. I myself am a console player who has put a lot of time into warframe and am switching to PC, but I really don’t want to start everything over again so I was relieved when I read this. The main issue I see with cross save is that people can take advantage of better prices for certain sellable items on the other gaming device, and that can lead to in game economy problems. But what if it was set up in a way that you could save only your base account (xp, built warframes weapons and other items, resources, and anything you’ve purchased from the in game market). It wouldn’t carry over sellable items so there isn’t really a way to mess up the economy, but players can still be happy with not having to start the game over. Some of the issues though are that mods and arcanes are sellable items that people need l. anyone have any ideas that could help?

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It's something that's been a hot topic for months now. Demand for it is there, and for good reason, yet I haven't been able to gauge what people’s expectations for it will be if or when it eventually arrives, or even seen a larger discussion about what cross save would actually entail for Warframe as a whole. I've had some thoughts about this for some time, and want to see what concerns/ideas everyone else had.

As for what I think, to me there are 3 main hurdles that Digital Extremes will have to overcome, and are probably what they’re racking their minds over right now. 

In-Game Economy

If I were a betting man this is probably the largest factor I would guess as to what is making cross save a "Soon...™"  feature than a "Soon™ :)" feature, or possibly preventing it from materializing at all. While other games with cross save do have loot, paid virtual currency and microtransactions, one thing they don't have to consider is said loot/currency being freely traded between players, leading to a player driven in-game economy. People reading this are probably thinking "So? It couldn't be that bad to allow trading across platforms, what's the big deal?", but I think the reality is a lot more complicated. Each platform has its own economy balance and inflation rates that are ever evolving, primarily due to the way plat purchasing and vouchers work differently for PC and console players. As such, plat on consoles is a lot more valuable, and while prices are generally lower the amount of plat in circulation and generally smaller playerbase makes items for trade all the more precious. 

Another factor is what you buy from the Marketplace. On PC Prime Access is bought with platinum and TennoGen items directly with real money, whereas on consoles it's the reverse. I can already foresee a scenario where people purchase a bunch of discounted plat on PC and then begin switching to their console save to mass buy a lot of skins and bundles for far lower than intended. It might potentially lead to a short term boost in profits for DE, but Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and even TennoGen contributors could see a loss and would certainly have complaints about being cut out of their share of money. 

I'll be honest and admit I'm no economist, or savvy with math at all, so I don't truly know how much of an issue this is, or if unifying all trading would have any lasting impact. But without any consideration into the short and long term effects it could have this would potentially lead to a massive upset in the community (Moreso than any expansion or content addition to date) or hurting DE and platform holders financially.

Updates

With the spaghetti code ever evolving and the disparity between how up-to-date Warframe on PC can be vs the cert processes on other platforms, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to keep everyone's inventory and settings intact without something eventually glitching or getting deleted accidentally. I'm about as good of a programmer as I am an economist (Re: I'm neither) so again I couldn’t tell you for sure whether or not it’s possible to have your progress carry with no issues, but I can't imagine having a save transferring between different builds of the same game would be stable. The only solution would appear to be releasing all future updates/hotfixes simultaneously to keep everything in sync, meaning PC would have to lose out on earlier and more frequent patches. Depending on who you ask that might either be seen as a benefit or a negative. 

Going back to the trade economy for a moment, would we also end up in funky situations where new primes launch on PC before consoles, but relics or even prime parts were still fully tradeable? What happens when PS4 or Xbox One players somehow start to build a Nidus Prime despite not being on the same build, or begin selling them on those platforms before others can get a chance of farm for them themselves? 

Platform Holders

This is kind of a mix between the last two sections, but it probably deserves a bit of emphasis. Things are much better than say a year or two ago, when cross play would've been out of the question, let alone cross save, so it's great that we can even discuss it as a serious potential feature. But there're a few hoops that I imagine DE have to jump through on a policy level. Would exclusive platform skins have to be disabled when transfering saves? How fine would they be with plat purchased from other platforms? Would the cert processes be changed to allow for more frequent updates? 

With all that said and done, what can be done to make cross save work? I’ve pondered a few solutions.

  • Keep platinum platform specific: the simplest way I can see to not upset each platforms economy is by, well, not having the different economies mix. For example, if I had 500 platinum on Xbox One and transferred my save to the PC for the first time, I’d be starting out with 0 plat. And any further plat purchased on the PC would remain there. Now the potential for plat manipulation and abuse is entirely prevented. Which leads me to my next suggestion.
  • Also keep tradeable items locked to the platform they were previously earned from: I can see this being a more controversial change, but bare with me for a moment. Just to be clear, this isn’t saying that if you use cross save your prime parts, mods, rivens and arcanes become disabled. Anything you have in your inventory would be 100% usable by you, so you could still buy a Baza BP on PC and unlock its parts from relics on Switch and not be locked out of crafting her. However, if you earned those relics on Switch they would be flagged and become untradeable on everything else but the Switch. This is another way of keeping the economies and differing builds of the game from overlapping in unpredictable ways. Now, DE would have to really, really step up their programming game and do some work under the hood to keep everyone’s inventory working across PC, PS4, Xbox One and Switch, and make it abundantly clear what items/mods were earned on what platform (Having the option to sort/tab through your tradeable inventory based on platform would be an absolutely bare minimum feature).
  • Allow everyone to see platform exclusive cosmetics: While I think these should still remain unpurchasable from other stores, it would suck if you couldn’t at least show off your platform skins and syandanas without having to worry if their appearance will be turned to the default skin to other players. If nothing else it’d be a boost to each platform holders profits, because now you might see a player on PC with a cool PS4 exclusive syandana, think “Hey I want that dope syandana”, and go purchase it from the PS Store, so I can’t see any reason that a deal couldn’t be worked out to allow it outside of some “preserving brand integrity” bull from Sony, MS or Nintendo. 
  • Have periods where cross save is disabled and only allowed between equal builds: This is the next best solution I could think of barring each platform holder magically doing away with cert processes or without potentially hampering the PC’s release schedule, but it does come with its own potential hang ups. When all builds are synced up you can move your save freely, but if you’re on console and the PC gets a new patch or content release your save will be restricted. Think of it like a ferry. But so you’re not completely out of luck, if you log into Warframe on an older build a notice informing you of that could pop up and warn you that any progress will not be synced up with other platforms until those builds are the same.

So, there you have it. Sorry for the long ramble. Even though it seems like I’ve given more reasons for why cross save wouldn’t likely be happening, and my suggestions for how it could be implemented might either be excessive or fundamentally bad, I honestly do hope they find a way to implement cross save that pleases mostly everyone. I’ve been playing Warframe on PS4 for a year now and have been wanting to switch over once I eventually upgrade my PC to be able to get more of my friends to play. Hopefully DE can make it a reality some day. 

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I don't play on consoles, so I don't really have an opinion either way. 

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The Cross save is probably like the way you described. Letting people trade cross platform would hurt DE financially and totally wreck the game economy because of plat price differences. Not to mention the console makers are probably not gonna like that because it will make them lose money and likely revoke DE's license to publish game in the platform.

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I've been saying this for months every time someone comes up with the totally unique and new solution to cross play which is cross platform saves, it's a lot more complicated than just implementing the system. There's been a number of threads on the topic pop up over time but originally, they were usually an extension of cross play when people bring up the fact that version differences would make it really awkward with a single hotfix potentially disabling it for months. Most of the time, these complications that you bring up are usually skimmed by the person suggesting it, leading to no further discussions beyond just "But game X did it so why can't DE do it?"

Something to add to the complication is that due to the nature of PC Discounts and how the PC Platform receives updates ahead of time, you run a risk of people just exclusively stocking Platinum on the PC to purchase new equipment ahead of time at a discounted price, which in turn, drains the sales out of the consoles. Guy on console logs into PC for discount tickets, purchases a large sum of Platinum and parks it on his account. A new major update is released on PC and it features a package deal with all the new weapons and frame. He purchases it at 30% of it's real world currency equivalent because he has a large amount of Platinum sitting on his PC wallet from an old 70% discount. It's not particularly difficult to implement a "Content not yet available" placeholder built into the game to address this non-existent weapon, it's just a defaulter when something is either not found, or empty weapon placeholders ahead of time. When the consoles are updated, you get immediate access to the weapons you bought on the PC and you've essentially paid them at less than half the price compared to someone who plays exclusively on the consoles. From a financial standpoint, it doesn't really make any logical sense for the console platforms.

Honestly, my expectations for it is either the idea falls apart eventually due to negotiations being bogged down by all these, or DE takes complete control of Platinum purchases, does some marketplace synchronizing on all platforms and consoles get a cut from the spending instead of purchase. Provided they get the negotiation down.

Edited by RX-3DR
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I don't see why the economy of the game would be ruined by letting players trade across platforms. There would be an adjustment period, where everything has to balance out, but after that, it would still be the same.
As long as plat prices are the same on the different platforms, that also shouldn't be an issue. Tennogen stuff could be tricky and might have to be locked to the platform you buy it on.

Saves don't have to be an issue. The way the files are saved to store each players inventory shouldn't change much anyway. If the Devs ever wanted to change something about that, they would have to sync the different platforms then. You would also need a way for the console versions to deal with new stuff from the PC version, so you don't get error icons or other weird things, whenever something exists on PC and doesn't on console.

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I think there's a very low percent chance that this will ever happen.  I just restarted on PC and mostly play there now.... I wouldn't mind being able to have access to my PC Warframe account on my switch though... But that can happen if the Dell UFO ever is released

08-alienware-concept-ufo-gaming-device.j

 

 

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Cross trades won't happen, updates will work the same way they do now - PC first, consoles later - and if you get a brand new item in the PC version that's not on console, you won't be able to use that item until it is out on console... basically, nothing will change other than being able to have your save in the cloud to be able to use it wherever and whenever.

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15 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Cross trades won't happen, updates will work the same way they do now - PC first, consoles later - and if you get a brand new item in the PC version that's not on console, you won't be able to use that item until it is out on console... basically, nothing will change other than being able to have your save in the cloud to be able to use it wherever and whenever.

Curiously enough, the only major change I can happening with this is on PC. Bungie were able to do this because they shifted all of their PC access over to Steam (meaning it was just one more walled garden to deal with), and I could see DE doing the same in order to make aligning all of the systems easier.

The 'Prime Access/Tennogen' question isn't really 'a thing' because the money/platinum would still change hands in the location it does now; it's only where the item purchased ends up that changes. In fact if someone were to purchase discount plat on PC and then use it to buy Tennogen on console, that's pretty much a win-win all around, isn't it? It's not like the PC side is getting robbed, and the console side is actually gaining from that.

Then again it might be an idea just to keep it the same across the board purely for the purposes of avoiding confusion, and if they were to do that it would potentially increase visibility for all those selling Tennogen...

Bringing the marketplaces into line and making Platinum/Vouchers 'platform locked' is probably the only other step they'd need to make (because the content is pretty much in-line across the board as it is right now and separate from the in-game patching which isn't subject to the same cert process as the content patches are).

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Ignoring all enginnering issues I'm pretty certain that DE's contracts with Sony/MS/Nintendo/Steam will be the defining factor.

My guess is that:

  • All Platinum will be local to the platform it's gained on. Including trading.
  • All purchase-only cosmetics wil remain platform local (Yep I know this will kill cross-save for some but I'll bet it'll end up being a requirement)

It's even possible that all materials and blueprints remain platform local with only completed gear being synchronised.

As annoying as those limitations might be I think it would provide a lot of people with the utility they need while allowing DE to honour the revenue sharing agreements that they have made with Steam/MS/Nintendo/Sony

I do not see any situation were DE can negotiate an agreement where purchases made in one walled garden give players content in another walled garden without the owners getting a cut.

I know that some larger studios have negotiated something like that deal for a new game but given the pre-existing contracts and DE's lack of clout with those companies (Now being a one-game studio) I don't see it happening here.

Edited by SilentMobius

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4 hours ago, (XB1)TwinStripeUK said:

In fact if someone were to purchase discount plat on PC and then use it to buy Tennogen on console, that's pretty much a win-win all around, isn't it? It's not like the PC side is getting robbed, and the console side is actually gaining from that.

This is not a win-win. Percentages are extracted from real money purchases. A Steam-based Plat purchase gives a cut of that money to Valve, If that Plat could then be used to buy someting on the XBox the result is a microtransaction that happens on an MS platform that MS doesn't get a cut of, and that is not something that walled garden owners like, at all. Same for "subverted" microtransactions where the whole transaction happens elsewhere but another walled garden owner is expected to enable the content without seeing any money.

Edited by SilentMobius
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My ps4 died a while ago and since I've played all of the exclusives, I don't really want to buy another console until the ps5 comes out. I'd like to get back into Warframe on pc since there has been quite a bit more content added since the Plains of Eidolon came out. I had mastery of everything and most of the deluxe skins/tennogen at the time so I don't want to start over, and slog through all the content I've already cleared, just to play the new stuff. So...topic. Is there hope?

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a couple dev streams ago they mentioned they are looking into it, still uncertain and for the long run, i think.

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It was mentioned recently (first Devstream of 2020 I believe) that they're looking into the possibility of cross-save currently.  But they can't really provide more details than that at this stage.  So yes, it's being looked into, but nothing concrete yet and likely won't be for at least a few months.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)ChronosHavok said:

My ps4 died a while ago and since I've played all of the exclusives, I don't really want to buy another console until the ps5 comes out. I'd like to get back into Warframe on pc since there has been quite a bit more content added since the Plains of Eidolon came out. I had mastery of everything and most of the deluxe skins/tennogen at the time so I don't want to start over, and slog through all the content I've already cleared, just to play the new stuff. So...topic. Is there hope?

other than still looking into it there hasnt been any new infomation

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On 2020-01-31 at 9:11 PM, SilentMobius said:

This is not a win-win. Percentages are extracted from real money purchases. A Steam-based Plat purchase gives a cut of that money to Valve, If that Plat could then be used to buy someting on the XBox the result is a microtransaction that happens on an MS platform that MS doesn't get a cut of, and that is not something that walled garden owners like, at all. Same for "subverted" microtransactions where the whole transaction happens elsewhere but another walled garden owner is expected to enable the content without seeing any money.

It's a win-win for the consumer, and for DE. If Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony want to negotiate a better deal with DE than Steam have, that's up to them.

DE still get paid

The consumer gets what they want.

Not seeing an issue for you or I here, or an issue that couldn't be resolved by making the console manufacturers a little less greedy (after all, it literally costs all parties the same amount to sell 'virtual' items).

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39 minutes ago, (XB1)TwinStripeUK said:

It's a win-win for the consumer, and for DE. If Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony want to negotiate a better deal with DE than Steam have, that's up to them.

DE still get paid

The consumer gets what they want.

Not seeing an issue for you or I here, or an issue that couldn't be resolved by making the console manufacturers a little less greedy (after all, it literally costs all parties the same amount to sell 'virtual' items).

I mean if you have magic dust that affects the console ecosystem rulers desire for profit, go right ahead, but as far as I'm aware If a game publisher wants to sell and/or do microtransactions on a console platform they have to use that platform in a manner those rulers agree with, if they don't then that's a "lose" rather then a "win", and that's where we all are. Simply put, DE need them more then they need DE

Edited by SilentMobius
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I think the best way to implement cross-save is allowing only mods, crafted items (including polarity) and MR to be carried over to other platforms. 

Tradeable items can only be traded on the same platform you got them from (e.g. if you have 1 Vitality from PC, you can only sell it on PC but not on PS4 or Switch).

Basically the point is to minimize the impact on economy.

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1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I mean if you have magic dust that affects the console ecosystem rulers desire for profit, go right ahead, but as far as I'm aware If a game publisher wants to sell and/or do microtransactions on a console platform they have to use that platform in a manner those rulers agree with, if they don't then that's a "lose" rather then a "win", and that's where we all are. Simply put, DE need them more then they need DE

But do they? DE still pay certification fees for their updates, they're still paying a percentage on anything that does get sold through the console marketplaces (because some people won't have access to Steam etc.).

In short, they're still getting money for nothing, so it's all profit anyway.

Plus you can guarantee that the 'discount' doesn't get applied to the retailer side of the equation - it comes out of DE's cut, because given that Steam don't make money out of certification and don't charge a fee for multiplayer, I can't see Steam dropping their 30% down to 5% (or even less for as higher than 25% discount or if the total take for the game is $10-50 million dollars plus).

 

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All platforms would need to have parity in features, cosmetics and so on BEFORE any cross-save is implemented (imo), otherwise you have all sorts of issues like tennogen for example. I don't see it happening soon, if at all. But what do I know...

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2 hours ago, (XB1)TwinStripeUK said:

But do they? DE still pay certification fees for their updates, they're still paying a percentage on anything that does get sold through the console marketplaces (because some people won't have access to Steam etc.).

In short, they're still getting money for nothing, so it's all profit anyway.

Plus you can guarantee that the 'discount' doesn't get applied to the retailer side of the equation - it comes out of DE's cut, because given that Steam don't make money out of certification and don't charge a fee for multiplayer, I can't see Steam dropping their 30% down to 5% (or even less for as higher than 25% discount or if the total take for the game is $10-50 million dollars plus).

Question:

DE sells platinum themselves, they also use steam but you can buy it direct if you want to.

If the console overlords allowed foreign microtransaction tokens to buy things on their platform, why would any publisher ever use those platform's payment system? Hence why would any transaction ever happen in a place where the console overlords would get their cut? It's the same thing with mobile (Google Play/App store). If you control the platform you get a cut of the sales and you put rules in place to ensure that cut doesn't get sidestepped. You may not like it but that is how walled gardens work.

I mean you know they take a cut of game sales right? What is a microtransaction other than a fraction of a game sale? Cert fees are just about the cost of performing the cert, nothing to do with the ongoing cost of hosting the game on their platform (Note this is not the same "hosting" as P2P vs Hosted servers, just FYI)

You know that Fair's often take a cut of food vendor sales on the Fairground right? this is not a new phenomenon.

Edited by SilentMobius

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   The idea of crossplay in Warframe is nearly as old as that of Warframe on multiple platforms. In 2013 when Warframe had a Playstation 4 demo for E3 Steve said cross-platform play was something they were going to do just as sure as the next platform itself. The reason we got for why this didn't happen was the update cycle. The Xbox One launch in 2014 (and the 2018 Switch launch) complicated things by increasing the number of platforms that would have to be on the same content update. Fast forward to the infamous January 2019 devstream. Steve mentions that cross save (having progression sync across systems) is the safest way to implement anything like it and something they were looking at. More recently it's been represented as being a major objective directly after further implementations of Empyrean.

   Switching topics for a bit to Warframe's content history, I personally consider the current implementation of Railjack to be a brilliant tech demo. Kuva liches are similar in that they're cool for a little while. One of the wondrous things about playing this game long-term is seeing polish added (there are a lot of "2.0s" or even "3.0s" to mention). One of the really frustrating things is watching it take so long (why are there still mission-breaking Orb Vallis bugs?)

   What if DE created a semi-public PC beta to replace the current PC head start? It would give WF partners something to do and it could really increase polish on the game. It seems like having things on the same cycle is a prerequisite to crossplay and creating such an beta would help players and devs communicate what they want for/from new content. Warframe might need an announcement that it has actually left beta but I think it's a game that deserves that announcement. There's a long list of things players want from the game (or things the game deserves) and a change like this could really help facilitate the more important changes if it gets DE to invest more into the player's experience on the whole. I know this is really three separate ideas, but let me know what you think.

 

Bibliography:

Cross-platform play is in the future (Jul 2013) https://www.cinemablend.com/games/Warframe-Support-Cross-Platform-Play-Between-PS4-PC-57513.html 

Cross-platform play is not in the future (Oct 2013) https://forums.warframe.com/topic/125149-warframe-ps4-account-migrationcross-platform-play/

Cross-save is an idea we are exploring (Jan 2019) https://wccftech.com/warframe-crossplay-highest-risk-things/ or https://youtu.be/sf9QpXSGryg?t=3105

Cross-save is coming soon (Dec 2019) https://www.pcgamesn.com/warframe/cross-save 

Edited by Tsonachiko

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I hate consoles because they are very expensive, not durable/flexible like pc. I dont care for "cross-save"..this thing can cause a lot many losses to DE in the future like costs and a lot of  problems between platforms ... I sincerely hope they don't do that.

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