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The Kuva Bramma and the dangers of self damage!


NoggDog117
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After watching the devstream, I was surprised with the Kuva Bramma's explosiveness. Rebecca was able to clear rooms with a few shots of that thing thanks to both the HUGE main explosion and the smaller, seemingly randomized grenades, but there's a problem. The self damage was downplayed by the dev-build god mode. I noticed multiple times during the stream that she did enough damage to down herself. Then I saw the little grenades after the main shot seemingly had random trajectories, and it was thanks to that she was able to clear mobs so fast, even unmodded. That damage radius the bow runs with is concerning; if what Rebecca had on was unmodded, a fully modded one will be worse than Acceltra's self damage. I get that Cautious Shot is a thing, but that also is a -15% damage, and if that thing is capable of what I think could happen when modded right, 99% of quintuple digit damage is still hundreds of points of self damage, and with multishot and the smaller grenades, that 1% of leftover self damage could still be enough to kill you.

Keep in mind that on the devstream, at timestamp 40:32, it did not show the basic damage numbers of the bow when she equipped it, everything had 0's except for impact damage at 187, including the lich's damage type of electricity at 44%, so we cannot calculate out the exact damage yet, but the critical chance shown for the base shot is 35% with a critical damage bonus of 2.1x.

Linked to the devstream at the timestamp 40:32.

Spoiler

 

I have always felt self damage in Warframe is detrimental to the gameplay. While sure, it makes you think about how far you are from where you fire, there are so many close-quarter spaces (with a focus on such spaces in upcoming content such as the future of Railjack), so many enemies that charge the player, and with damage from mods affecting self damage, using a weapon like this usually results in more than a few spectacularly explosive, self-inflicted deaths. Even Acceltra, an explosive weapon that is built to not deal self damage since shots don't explode in a certain radius of where the player fired it, will kill anyone using it while moving too fast when firing (I.E. aim gliding, run and gun). Ironically, that released with the Speedster-frame. 

Again, I am aware of Cautious Shot, but given Rebecca was clearing Adaro with no problem using an unmodded Kuva Bramma, putting that into a modded one would only benefit high-armor builds such as Inaros or Valkyr.

Edited by NoggDog117
Fixed an egregious formatting error
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2 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

I agree to all points of the post but you might need to edit the formatting again so users of dark mode can read the second half of your post MM8GQ7L.png

can't read any of this ^  without highlighting it

I fixed it. No idea what caused that though.

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Self-damage in Warframe is a design mistake DE is too stubborn to admit, that's it.

There's no place for self-damage in fast-paced diablo-esque games like that, it makes zero sense, it's inconsistent (concealed explosives shuriken does self-damage, but arca plasmor projectile shot at a wall point-blank does not? Also, Simulor, Torid, Quanta family alt-fire?). I mean for Void's sake, DE, make up your mind - either we're playing a hardcore simulator with friendly fire, self-damage, bullet ricochet and whatnot or a fast-paced slasher where we're juggling antimatter for fun and summoning meteors and orbital strikes.  

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49 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Self-damage in Warframe is a design mistake DE is too stubborn to admit, that's it.

There's no place for self-damage in fast-paced diablo-esque games like that, it makes zero sense, it's inconsistent (concealed explosives shuriken does self-damage, but arca plasmor projectile shot at a wall point-blank does not? Also, Simulor, Torid, Quanta family alt-fire?). I mean for Void's sake, DE, make up your mind - either we're playing a hardcore simulator with friendly fire, self-damage, bullet ricochet and whatnot or a fast-paced slasher where we're juggling antimatter for fun and summoning meteors and orbital strikes.  

If the maps weren't so claustrophobic explosive weapons would be more viable too, as it is you're just as likely to frag yourself as you are to kill an enemy if you use explosive weapons on most maps. If they completely cut out self damage some explosive weapons would be stupidly good since you can just shoot the ground near you and destroy everything. 

The thing that would help them is maps where explosions could be useful and not a 50/50 chance to self destruct. 

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"I haven't died yet" with god mode on was pretty funny. I honestly often wonder if Rebb actually remembers that god mode is on for dev streams, since I think this wasn't the first time something like this happened. In this case, maybe that instant environment death from the corpus ship made her think god mode WASN'T on.

the other major thing I saw being pointed out though is that there are several self damage weapons already that CAN'T even equip cautious shot, since it seemed to just be tied to "whatever can equip firestorm". The Lenz can't, for example, nor any of the self damage secondaries. It'll be amusing if this bow ends up sharing the same fate, though maybe this will be what finally prompts them to make another pass at "what can equip this mod".

Edited by OvisCaedo
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3 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

"I haven't died yet" with god mode on was pretty funny. I honestly often wonder if Rebb actually remembers that god mode is on for dev streams, since I think this wasn't the first time something like this happened.

the other major thing I saw being pointed out though is that there are several self damage weapons already that CAN'T even equip cautious shot, since it seemed to just be tied to "whatever can equip firestorm". The Lenz can't, for example, nor any of the self damage secondaries. It'll be amusing if this bow ends up sharing the same fate, though maybe this will be what finally prompts them to make another pass at "what can equip this mod".

I think this will be able to have cautious shot, they brought up the mod in the stream.

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55 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

you can just shoot the ground near you and destroy everything. 

Which would be the case if explosive weapons dealt millions worth of damage. Which they don't. It's easier to swing a melee weapon with Primed Reach once to a better and infinitely safer effect. 

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Big oofs on @[DE]Rebecca for saying basically "it's fine, I'm not having problems with it" without realizing

>>Godmode

>>Unmodded (self damage scales with mods)

 

Plus the fact that she also defended it by saying "cautious shot exists", yes it exists. But did she know that it only works on launcher type weapons and can't even be used on the Lenz atm? (Which would be the closest current weapon to the Bramma, even if it is functionally closer to the Kulstar/Zarr)

 

Also in general Cautious Shot only really works well on the Ogris rn (both versions) because it has low crit chance, if it didn't it wouldn't work nearly as well on it as it currently does.

Look, if you want cautious shot to be a thing players don't like and hate, at least make it cap self damage instead of reducing it, for example at max rank it caps the self damage to 100.

Or maybe it can even be changed to reducing the self damage radius.

 

Also consider either making it a mod that doesn't distinct by weapon type, but rather weapon effect. Can it do self damage? Should be the only qualifier on if a weapon can use it or not. (And there's no secondary version of it atm)

Edited by Madway7
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If any of you are worried about off-ing yourself from the damage received using the Bramma, I suggest thinking about what tileset, faction, mission type and frame you're using. This is just another weapon that's going to work wonderfully with Ivara or Zephyr. These types of weapons should not be considered assault, but rather ambush type weapons. Just to properly clarify my point of view.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)An Angry Mod said:

If any of you are worried about off-ing yourself from the damage received using the Bramma, I suggest thinking about what tileset, faction, mission type and frame you're using. This is just another weapon that's going to work wonderfully with Ivara or Zephyr. These types of weapons should not be considered assault, but rather ambush type weapons. Just to properly clarify my point of view.

That there is precisely the problem; You have to THINK about where to use things like this, meanwhile there are weapons like Fulmin, Acceltra, Rubico, Vectis, Tiberon, etc. that are no-brainers. The Bramma is especially concerning because from what we have seen, it has such a high crit chance and base damage as well as a ridiculous area of effect that using it with Cautious Shot would be pointless, but it isn't the heart of the problem.

The reaction from the chat during the livestream was very negative (as noted by Steve) when we were shown the two additional self damaging weapons. This was for a reason; To many, it makes the interesting and fun weapons DE makes into situational ones. Since they can and will kill you, It does absolutely nothing to "stir the pot" that is the current meta. Worst of all, it's inconsistent. Why is there self damage on Stug, but not Torid? Why does Shedu do AoE explosions that aren't self damage? Lenz does self damage, but not Opticor? What makes these weapons self-damaging is extremely vague, and to top that off, not all of these weapons that deal self damage can use Cautious Shot, the mod that is intended to fix a weapon's self damage problem.

The mechanic of self damage needs work, especially if weapons like Bramma exist, that can potentially, when modded, delete a suped up Inaros. The game's damage caps are always expanding, and self damage is one of the factors people take into account when deciding the weapon they'll take. It's why no weapons that deal (consistent) self damage are ever in the top 10 primaries used, because it's just not worth the hassle. (Acceltra does not count, it is at least built so that standard movement while firing it won't kill you, you need to be going fast enough to catch the explosion,  I.E. sliding or aimgliding, and on a fully modded Acceltra that will destroy you.)

 

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I look forward to handing it to mirage and then ruining my own life with it. 

Would be nice to see them give an easier to track visual on where the grenades are going once it hits. The Lenz has a bubble to tell you where its explosion range is, I don't see why we can't get easier to track trails on those grenades. 

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Just got Kuva Bramma and Firestorm/Cautious Shot can’t be used in it. Firing it is like if you’re using Zarr’s bigger brother so it requires you to be further away, even if you got slightly too close to the Explosion Radius, you would either lose a lot of Health, or instantly die. Fun Bow but yeah it leaves little room for error with Cautious Shot being unavailable.

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On 2020-02-02 at 8:23 PM, NoggDog117 said:

Worst of all, it's inconsistent. Why is there self damage on Stug, but not Torid? Why does Shedu do AoE explosions that aren't self damage? Lenz does self damage, but not Opticor? What makes these weapons self-damaging is extremely vague, and to top that off, not all of these weapons that deal self damage can use Cautious Shot, the mod that is intended to fix a weapon's self damage problem.

I wonder how much blowback would occur if weapons like Staticor or Shedu—for sake of argument, let's say any weapon with a radial explosion element, since that seems most consistent—had self-damage...

I don't advocate for that personally but more for the people who tend to say "just play better".

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Tyreaus:

I wonder how much blowback would occur if weapons like Staticor or Shedu—for sake of argument, let's say any weapon with a radial explosion element, since that seems most consistent—had self-damage...

I don't advocate for that personally but more for the people who tend to say "just play better".

They did it once (If I remeber it right). But like you can see it didn't hold long.

Somehow I can understand these people. If I would all day use my weapon brainless and after one patch it would change do drastically i would also cry. DE should at first give the weapons weak self-damage and increase it over time.

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So, got my new Bramma, got to modding it, knowing it was rather explosive i figured it would want Cautious Shot on it. Well fat out of luck there because i can't, not an option, so i thought maybe DE had decided not to let it do self damage. Fat out of luck there too, first shot killed me. Door closed, i died. A body flew infront of me, dead again. You know, the usual problems with self damage, which can usually be fixed with a mod. Huh. Also with a max ammo cap of 15, yes, 15, you kinda need a mutation mod (and i can equip the sniper mutation mod so guess what that means, not much ammo without a mod), in the slot for the self damage mod, maybe they figure we can't kill ourselves if we have no ammo? And to top it off, so far as i can tell the small bombs that come from the initial explosion, do no damage, to enemies or me. So what was even the point of this weapon? If by some miracle i don't kill myself with the 15 shots i have, it requires ammo mods to be usable anyway, so either run with a carrier that will die when you do, which is often, or just use another weapon?

 

Well, i'll see myself out.... the door closed on me and i died again....

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