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NoggDog117

The Kuva Bramma and the dangers of self damage!

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5 hours ago, NovusNova said:

This has already been addressed by [DE]Marcus:

"Thanks for the feedback! We've heard the requests to negate the self-damage of the Bramma, so expect something to that extent. Cautious Shot doesn't work on bows outright so expect a bow specific version!"

Link: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1165349-the-kuva-bramma-and-the-dangers-of-self-damage/?do=findComment&comment=11357109

 

Could you also look into something similar for Secondaries & Archguns? Just some food for thought.

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9 hours ago, warmastercain said:

 

Your forgetting small maps and mobs swarming you 

Or team mates jumping in front of you. 

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Enemies are not affected by self damage, why should we?

It was meant to prevent AoE weapons abuse, but vonsidering there are a lot that due to their nature aren't self damaging, it doesn't make much sense anymore.

The tonkor reigned supreme for a few years because it could do horrific damage at point blanck without suffering from self damage, rendering all other launchers obsolete. After it was brought in line with it's peers by turning on self damage on it, it lost much of its appeal due to it's long recharge time, small magazine size and tendency of its grenades to bounce everywere to explode were the least expected...

Most explosive weapons, that incidentally would still murder us even with cautious shot equipped, will require multiple shots to down enemies - meanwhile a single Saryn would lay waste tho the entire mission with a single cast in the same time a player with a laucher requires to aim, make sure nothing gets in the way of the shot, and put his launcher away because there's noting to shoot at anymore...

Self damage as a disincentive to abuse AOE damage needs a drastic overhaul - getting downed because a squadmate, pet, sentinel or any other crap zooming in from outside our limited field of view (79° in game versus the near 180° of actual human vision) only detracts from game experience and makes poor sense in contest: weapons have safeties in place to avoid this crap.

If DE wants to keep self damage, all weapons with it need some safety measures:

- safe arming distance: ammunition should go live only after leaving its AoE radius, plus a margin, from its launcher, including radius changes due to mods;

- fuse duration: many explosive weapons have delayed detonations, most ofthen than not said delay is absolutely eccessive, resulting in enemies  going kamikaze on us with our own ordnance! zhuge prime is a glaring example of this and widely avoided for the very same reason! if it at least bowled over enemies stuck, it would give enough time for its munition to detonate were it landed instead than in our faces!

  Fuse duration becomes even a bigger problem when our shoots miss and live grenades are schattered all around due to the following point.

- visibility: all time delayed explosives are substantially invisible in the chaos that's the battlefield, we have an advanced hud, at least our ordnance should be marked on it, enemy ordnance as well with radar and item mods equipped; Lenz is great regarding this because it's danger area iotself is clearly marked, leaving enough time to evade or try to mitigate damage;

- self damage cap: if our weapons aren't able to oneshot enemies, the same should apply to the damage inflicted on us: damage should be punishing but not immediately lethal, lets say a fixed 90% regardless of actual weapon damage, procs etc. with cautious shot reducing the damage suffered further (makes even more sense considering that we don't have friendly fire and so allies can walk through literal hell without consequences while we get blown to kingdom come!)

- grenade phisics: phisic engine concerning any form of impact is absolutely bonkers, with grenades behaving like "super balls" bounching everywere in unmpredictable and unrealistic ways! makes no sense that:

  <> a grenade aimed at the ground with a very shallow angle can bounce directly back on the same trajectory!

  <> being killed by said grenade casing impact!

  <> that very same grenade impacting an enemy, instead of bowling him/her down, happily flies back in your face before detonating at head height for a neat frame decapitation!

- impact inconsistency: live grnades can kill a frame with pure kinetic impact but have no stopping power on enemies... makes no sense, even the freeze proc of the lenz ofthen isn't enough to keep enemies in its area of effect, while enemy grenades nearly invariably bowl us over, in particular bombards and manic bombards homing grenades!

 (and why the hell our ogris isn't homing?)

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Was playing Mirage + Bramma and killed myself ONCE in like 3h game session and just because teammate blocked my shot, so what i ressed up and kept killing stuff. Im amazed how some "guys" can pull out whole paragraphs about "sElFdAmgE is bAAad".

Actually thats what make the weapon so FUN for me, you have to pay attention what you doing, yeah i know the common 🐑 cant do that, thats why we get such idiotic topics left and right. You "guys" should realize this weapon can clear whole room of enemies in 3 shots (you can shoot 3+ times in single aimglide btw) so having selfdamage on it DOES MAKE F SENSE.

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vor 28 Minuten schrieb Ikusias:

The tonkor reigned supreme for a few years because it could do horrific damage at point blanck without suffering from self damage, rendering all other launchers obsolete. After it was brought in line with it's peers by turning on self damage on it, it lost much of its appeal due to it's long recharge time, small magazine size and tendency of its grenades to bounce everywere to explode were the least expected...

If you want to use a story please tell everything. Not only self damage was added to the tonkor. There was also the problem, that the tonkor could inflict insane amount of damage due to a bug. (I think that was because the explosion could inflict headshots.) It wasn't only because of selfdamage damage. It was to because the inflicted damage wasn't high enough anymore for the risk on killing one self.

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Ikusias:

- safe arming distance: ammunition should go live only after leaving its AoE radius, plus a margin, from its launcher, including radius changes due to mods;

No, please no. Just look a the kuva ayanaga. It has beautiful sound, design, but you can't kill anything because of the lost of the explosion.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Ikusias:

visibility: all time delayed explosives are substantially invisible in the chaos that's the battlefield, we have an advanced hud, at least our ordnance should be marked on it, enemy ordnance as well with radar and item mods equipped; Lenz is great regarding this because it's danger area iotself is clearly marked, leaving enough time to evade or try to mitigate damage;

I agree with you.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Ikusias:

self damage cap: if our weapons aren't able to oneshot enemies, the same should apply to the damage inflicted on us: damage should be punishing but not immediately lethal, lets say a fixed 90% regardless of actual weapon damage, procs etc. with cautious shot reducing the damage suffered further (makes even more sense considering that we don't have friendly fire and so allies can walk through literal hell without consequences while we get blown to kingdom come!)

Fixed what? Apple, banana, or damage on max health? If it's the last one I hav eto give you a no. (Otherwise there wouldn't be a difference between an explosion and a fart, if you use Loki or other glass frames.)

But I would have nothing against, if DE would change cautious shot to max 3000 damage. High enough to kill glass frames, to low to kill the tanks. 

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Ikusias:

grenade phisics: phisic engine concerning any form of impact is absolutely bonkers, with grenades behaving like "super balls" bounching everywere in unmpredictable and unrealistic ways! makes no sense that:

  <> a grenade aimed at the ground with a very shallow angle can bounce directly back on the same trajectory!

  <> being killed by said grenade casing impact!

  <> that very same grenade impacting an enemy, instead of bowling him/her down, happily flies back in your face before detonating at head height for a neat frame decapitation!

Never had a problem with it.^^

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5 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

 

No, please no. Just look a the kuva ayanaga. It has beautiful sound, design, but you can't kill anything because of the lost of the explosion.

Could tell more? I don't have it so i can't comment.

Fixed what? Apple, banana, or damage on max health? If it's the last one I hav eto give you a no. (Otherwise there wouldn't be a difference between an explosion and a fart, if you use Loki or other glass frames.)

I meant that total self inflicted damage should be locked at 90% of frame EHP, including everything otherwise you still die instantly to any instance of Dot procced by the attack, invalidating the cap on self damage. Considering armour as well and difference in total HP, I believe there would be a word of difference in 10% remaining HP between say, Inaros compared to Loki or ivara.

But I would have nothing against, if DE would change cautious shot to max 3000 damage. High enough to kill glass frames, to low to kill the tanks. 

Not convinced it would work properly...

Never had a problem with it.^^

Lucky you T_T - grenades bounching hapazardly have been the bane of my use of penta and similar weapons and prevent doing actual trickshots as well when trying to bounce a grenade behind a corner could instead send it unjustifiably flying back at your own face X_X

 

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30 minutes ago, Benour said:

Was playing Mirage + Bramma and killed myself ONCE in like 3h game session and just because teammate blocked my shot, so what i ressed up and kept killing stuff. Im amazed how some "guys" can pull out whole paragraphs about "sElFdAmgE is bAAad".

Actually thats what make the weapon so FUN for me, you have to pay attention what you doing, yeah i know the common 🐑 cant do that, thats why we get such idiotic topics left and right. You "guys" should realize this weapon can clear whole room of enemies in 3 shots (you can shoot 3+ times in single aimglide btw) so having selfdamage on it DOES MAKE F SENSE.

Not so much as selfdamage is bad but more it's badly implemented in game, considering that it's reason was to reduce AoE weapons appeal and instead nearly killed off their use, while farme Aoe abilities are most of the time more effective and have better reach

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15 hours ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Cautious Shot won't change anything, weapons that can equip it but do less damage still one shots you, the Bramma won't be different

No, they don't.

If you actually tried it you would know this, ever since the -99% damage reduction to self the weapons like kuva ogris and kuva tonkor deal somewhere around 100 points of damage to your shields/hp even with a good riven.

 

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vor 13 Minuten schrieb Renzo:

 

 

Why are you using a corrosion on your Kuva Ogris? I simple use a viral slash combi. (I know it's off topic, but for me is the kuva Ogris to slow for a corrosion build, but maybe I'm wrong.)^^

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I always make a corrosive build for all of my weapons and if I need something else I add another build, but for the content level we usually have to play that build is just fine.

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23 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Thanks for the feedback! We've heard the requests to negate the self-damage of the Bramma, so expect something to that extent. Cautious Shot doesn't work on bows outright so expect a bow specific version! 

Can we ever expect a review on self damage as a whole? It's one of those mechanics that really has nothing but a turn off to most players as there are numerous AoE weapons without self-damage (Hi Shedu), and another band aid mod to attempt at covering up the real problem is not great I must say.

Also will we ever get to see Split Flights? This mod would be great on Bramma, but unfortunately it's currently one of those "you must have exploited a bugged transmutation system on X update or you can't use it" kind of mods (looking at you list of [PH] mods for the last 6 years).

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Forget about self-damage, and think about the EAR-DRUM DAMAGE YOU'RE CAUSING TO YOUR ALLIES FROM THE SOUND THIS F&$%$NG THING MAKES!!!!!! I literally just alt+f4'd the Survival Sortie because I was losing my sanity from the sound of this gun being spammed. AND I WAS OVER 50 METERS AWAY!

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9 minutes ago, Ofeban said:

Forget about self-damage, and think about the EAR-DRUM DAMAGE YOU'RE CAUSING TO YOUR ALLIES FROM THE SOUND THIS F&$%$NG THING MAKES!!!!!! I literally just alt+f4'd the Survival Sortie because I was losing my sanity from the sound of this gun being spammed. AND I WAS OVER 50 METERS AWAY!

When you have three Brammas in a Squad, you won’t be in a Mission anymore. You would be in a Century old Battlefield because that’s what it literally sound like.

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On 2020-02-05 at 8:57 AM, Foo_Prime said:

Why is self damage still a thing, is beyond me.

Personally, I use it on my Mirage to light her on fire to get her into light state buff. Explosive with a fire proc does the job for it.I hear Chroma likes using it for their buff but I don't know. I have also used it on Equinox to buff their slow.

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I wish people would stop saying they speak for everyone about self damage. I enjoy the added complexity of using Lenz and I absolutely LOVE self damage on my modded spiral prime to harness chroma's #3. 

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Y'all ninjas just crying here for no reason. Explosive weapons are explosive, which already means IT'S MADE NOT FOR YOU TO SHOOT YOUR FEET.
Y'all ninjas just need to study some skill and use artillery weapons as artillery weapons - ranged and safe. 
If there's gonna be a real war - i foresee your meaningless death yelling "Is this grenade does self damage?"
Brahmma is good, it needs no safety buffs. Self damage is made for people to learn that some weapons need additional caution while in use.

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I agree with the critic about the arrow range of the bramma when no terminal velocity is modded in - that is really is too short and can't often be compensated which firing in a higher arc due to low-ceiling in many areas. so a change toward increasing it in a way that making the effect of terminal velocity the 'default' range/speed of it would be ok. and calm down all the players who can't deal with self damage, DE could put something, they already have on some weapons, to those: a primer of the explosion, either by time or distance... if some people are still thinking of throwing a grenade in front of them and then bulletjumping right behind of it, then they deserve no other outcome imo.

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Le 06/02/2020 à 17:52, [DE]Marcus a dit :

Thanks for the feedback! We've heard the requests to negate the self-damage of the Bramma, so expect something to that extent. Cautious Shot doesn't work on bows outright so expect a bow specific version! 

With 99.8% of reduction ?

And don't cost 30 000 endo for only 2 weapon, but that is necessary to play this 2 weapons ?

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il y a 25 minutes, fr4gb4ll a dit :

hahaha to all the whiners about selfdamage. if it where up to me and where the world not full of arseheads, i would give every weapon the potential to damage allies and defense objects - and therefore every aoe-damage one the potential to selfdamage... ofc, this would make warframe pretty much a single player game then since most people are inapt in the use of weapons and/or restrainment... so at least warframe offers some little perspective to those people about what would happen if they ever get a real weapon into there hands - and maybe prevent some accident due to ignorance or clumsinees.

and you would kill the game.

Le 07/02/2020 à 13:06, Benour a dit :

Was playing Mirage + Bramma and killed myself ONCE in like 3h game session and just because teammate blocked my shot, so what i ressed up and kept killing stuff. Im amazed how some "guys" can pull out whole paragraphs about "sElFdAmgE is bAAad".

Actually thats what make the weapon so FUN for me, you have to pay attention what you doing, yeah i know the common 🐑 cant do that, thats why we get such idiotic topics left and right. You "guys" should realize this weapon can clear whole room of enemies in 3 shots (you can shoot 3+ times in single aimglide btw) so having selfdamage on it DOES MAKE F SENSE.

It requires to be careful. Warframe is not a game where we should be careful, it is a game were we need to move as mush as possible.

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27 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

It requires to be careful. Warframe is not a game where we should be careful, it is a game were we need to move as mush as possible.

and since when is that the official statement? this is only what some people think of it. others think it's all about rushing through the mission, killing only being a necessary evil. others again think of farming out every little crate on a map.... point is: you can make whatever you want - including firing carefull an not like an idiot... or, fire like an idiot and giggle after downing yourself - all upto you ^^)

31 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

and you would kill the game.

yes, very likely so - though it would be a glorious end for sure, with mountains of gore and salt!

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il y a 10 minutes, fr4gb4ll a dit :

and since when is that the official statement? this is only what some people think of it. others think it's all about rushing through the mission, killing only being a necessary evil. others again think of farming out every little crate on a map.... point is: you can make whatever you want - including firing carefull an not like an idiot... or, fire like an idiot and giggle after downing yourself - all upto you ^^)

It is just that lot in the game encourage you to do this : it is a good way to take less shot, the maps are made to be traversable quickly with bullet jump, ...

The problem of this weapon is that it would be fun to jump everywhere and make big explosion. But it is not possible. 

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5 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

It is just that lot in the game encourage you to do this : it is a good way to take less shot, the maps are made to be traversable quickly with bullet jump, ...

The problem of this weapon is that it would be fun to jump everywhere and make big explosion. But it is not possible. 

it is possible, though also dangerous. me, i like to bulletjump (if there is enough space upwards) into the air and use those 'splosives weapons from the aimglide or while hugging the walls up there. but yes, even i get killed by my own fire at itmes when, for example, some enemy grapple me toward the just fired lenz-arrow... or a stupid shockwave moa just stomped beside me and throwing me into the kill-zone... ѕhit happens, i guess ^^)

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On 2020-02-06 at 11:52 AM, [DE]Marcus said:

Thanks for the feedback! We've heard the requests to negate the self-damage of the Bramma, so expect something to that extent. Cautious Shot doesn't work on bows outright so expect a bow specific version! 

 

w00t!

Bow-specific implies it'll work for Lenz too, which is sweeeeeet

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22 hours ago, GKP_light said:

With 99.8% of reduction ?

And don't cost 30 000 endo for only 2 weapon, but that is necessary to play this 2 weapons ?

For christ's sake. They're giving you guys what you want, are you just looking for things to complain about?

 

You're literally complaining because you have to think. Think about that for a minute. This is why WF has such a toxic community. You are implying that if DE doesnt fix the thing that makes you mad it will "kill the game", but you're just a vocal minority.

I'm also seeing posts that suggest we just wont use it because we could use Ignis or something else mindless instead. Exactly! Do so! Maybe if you keep complaining they'll make a button that automatically completes the mission for you. I'm sure youd love that. 

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Il y a 8 heures, (NSW)StoneGhost a dit :

For christ's sake. They're giving you guys what you want, are you just looking for things to complain about?

If i can take 1000 damage, and  my bow do 100 000 damage, 99% reduction change nothing. And i don't have 30 000 endo to use on weapon that i don't know if i will use.

it is 2 facts.

And no, it is not what i want. I don't think self-kill have its place in this game.

"You are implying that if DE doesnt fix the thing that makes you mad it will "kill the game"" don't make me say sings that i didn't say. 

It is juste that they create unusable content. i have juste to use all other things in this game. but it is useless to have thing that look good but can not be use.

I would love to play my Lens in arbitration, but it is not possible.

 

"but you're just a vocal minority." : why the Lenz in never play ? because the large majority of the player don't want to take the risk the kill them-self.

 

If i say "they should nerf the adaptation, it make the game too easy excepte when the mob can one-shot you", you are more happy ?

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