The Kuva Bramma and the dangers of self damage!

[Masakr]

After long time actually weapon that looks awesome, sounds awesome and does awesome dmg.

If they remove selfdamage this weapon WILL BE OVERUSED and will get hit by nerfbat like synoid simulor/tonkor/plasmor/catchmoon.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb GKP_light:

If i can take 1000 damage, and  my bow do 100 000 damage, 99% reduction change nothing. And i don't have 30 000 endo to use on weapon that i don't know if i will use.

If your EHP is just 1000 you're probably playing an invisibility frame or a CC frame like Vauban. And with them you have plenty of time to aim, because nobody is aiming at you.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb GKP_light:

I would love to play my Lens in arbitration, but it is not possible.

I'm sorry to tell it you, but if you can't even use the lenz, you will probably never learn to use a weapon with selfdamage. And that's sadly a diagnose.

But be happy that's just explosive weapons. I have the same problem with Nova. One of the most useful frames ingame and even after years of training and thousand of guides I'm still not able to use her right/ good.^^

[GKP_light]

Il y a 3 heures, Masakr a dit :

If they remove selfdamage this weapon WILL BE OVERUSED and will get hit by nerfbat like synoid simulor/tonkor/plasmor/catchmoon.

they can remove self damage and reduce by half the damage.

[ES-Flinter]

vor einer Stunde schrieb GKP_light:

they can remove self damage and reduce by half the damage.

Or they keep self damage and double the damage. On this way the weapon won't become worthless.

[CopperBezel]

The Simulor and Plasmor happened so long ago that the pre-nerf versions of the weapons still wouldn't be viable right now, the Tonkor just got a buff in the form of the Kuva Tonkor, and the Catchmoon never stopped being entirely viable, so there's that.

Whatever the equivalent of Cautious Shot that's coming for bows, it's going to take a mod slot, which will in fact make the Bramma's self-damage irrelevant while halving its damage relative to a normal build. So that's already the proposition on the table there. Why CS doesn't just remove the self damage I don't know. 

For the 20 minutes I played with it, the Bramma is fun. Thanks to the cluster grenades around the main explosion, the self-damage radius is smaller than the radius that damages enemies, and in the relatively open environment of an Onslaught map, I just didn't have a lot of difficulty avoiding nailing myself. It's a less annoying, more effective Lenz.

I despise self-damage as a poorly conceived mechanic poorly applied, and I can't say I'd be too worried about the Bramma becoming The Meta with or without it. But if you're going to do it, a slow as hell launcher that's actually good at killing things at medium range and with a forgiving blast radius is just about the most fun you're going to make it. 

The argument for removing self-damage starts with weapons that would barely be viable without it, like the Ogris, or weapons where another, better mechanic is already in place, like the Acceltra. And I'm happy to make that argument, because it's a garbage mechanic, but the Bramma is one case where it seems at least to be working as intended.

[GKP_light]

il y a 31 minutes, CopperBezel a dit :

or weapons where another, better mechanic is already in place, like the Acceltra.

it could be a good solution, if the calculation of "explode or not" was better, and depend of the actual position of the warframe, and not the position at the moment of shoot ; because actually, we still kill ourself with it.

[CopperBezel]

Hmm. Framerate issue? It'd be amusing if my potato computer was protecting me. I've never had any SD problems with the Acceltra. Nonetheless, the thing I'm saying is that self-damage should be removed from the Accletra because it's irrelevant and the failure to explode is a better penalty. If the self-damage is not irrelevant, er, well, I'm not sure what that does to my argument, but remove it anyway because it's stupid.

[Pizzarugi]

When it comes to explosive weapons, I prefer using Revenant. He is completely unkillable while under the effects of Mesmer Skin, including from self-damage. You can shoot an enemy point blank in the face with a Kuva Ogris and laugh it off. The same can be said with a Kuva Bramma.

My suggestion is if you want to use weapons that can self-damage, you should run frames best designed to handle them. Otherwise, there's a massive arsenal of other weapons you can choose from that won't be dangerous to your favorite frame.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Pizzarugi

[Pie_mastyr]

You can also use the operator to release the charge trigger. Simply charge the weapon and take aim, then hit 5 instead of releasing. It's a bit slower if you have a high ping but it's a great way to guarantee safety with any frame.  

[Velgrimm]

Put me down as thinking self-damage should be taken out of the game entirely.  In slow-moving games it's understandable - Destiny 2 for example, rewards using cover, being careful, and watching out for rockets.  It's fast-paced, but severely punishes players who overextend, get too aggressive, or leave their teammates behind, especially in stuff like the Sundial or Nightfalls. 

 

Warframe on the other hand, rewards speed and efficiency; self-damage, or any mechanic that slows the player down, goes against the core gameplay mechanics of Warframe.  Players are punished for lagging behind, hesitating, or otherwise taking time to line up a shot - Warframe isn't about being cautious, at all.  But self-damage forces caution, slows the game down, and contradicts 90% of the weapons and frame abilities, which otherwise reward aggression, charging ahead, and being the first into the fray.

 

If DE wants to slow the game down, then by all means, add self-damage to more weapons, increase enemy damage, and decrease how much HP mods and abilities can add.  Give players a reason to be afraid, to be cautious.  But otherwise it's just an outdated mechanic from when this game was known as Dark Sector, that turns an otherwise fun weapon into trash.

I love the Bramma - it looks fantastic, like something out of a fairy tale, feels good, the explosion sounds are just really, really satisfying to hear and watch.  Everything about the bow is just FUN to use.  But when a door closes in my face, kavat or teammate runs in front of me, enemy charges, an enemy puts a shield up in front of me, or a nully bubble reflects my shot back, it just stops the entire game in its tracks and punishes me for doing what 90% of the other weapons (including the entire meta) encourages

Edited February 11, 2020 by Sedk

[GKP_light]

Il y a 15 heures, ES-Flinter a dit :

If your EHP is just 1000 you're probably playing an invisibility frame or a CC frame like Vauban. And with them you have plenty of time to aim, because nobody is aiming at you.

Now, i have the waipon, and can give real value : 

https://imgur.com/a/QP2AO57 : 42273 damage with the 2 mod crite, primed cold damage, and serration.

If i add multishot to can shoot 3 arrow, and the mod for poison damage, it make 171 000 damage when 3 arrow are shot.

Most of the frame don't have 1 710 EHP.

And this build has only 7 mod, there is the place to add a good riven, or heavy calibre, or both and remove the poison mod...

You can probably be over 3000 EHP need. 

So yes, 99% of reduction is not enough.

Edited February 11, 2020 by GKP_light

[(PSN)KawaiiJetty]

I am honestly baffled not many speak a major issue: Not being able to shoot through allies and such. That is a huge issue, you cab't blame your teammates, you can't blame your pets. You sort of have to put punch through or something.

Self damage is a bit weird for this weapon though:

Not having self damage turns this weapon deadly and brainless since you can just blast anybody close range and make chaos. This weapon easily obliterates high level enemies effortessly with innate Blast damage which is free crowd control. 

But on the other hand downright one shotting you isn't the right call. It gets scary to use with a squishy frame everytime since you have to worry about straight bullets from high level enemies too. Maybe adds a % of self damage to a Warframe? Cautios Shot or whatever mod feels like bad band aid imo and if we need a mod for those then make it -100% self damage since you are giving up a mod slot 

Overall you can still totally play with this weapon anyway, it is also a fast weapon so you can rack up huge damage in no time

[taiiat]

16 hours ago, GKP_light said:

because actually, we still kill ourself with it.

when? how? i have never Killed myself with Acceltra. i think i hit myself with the edge of one or a few of the Projectiles only once. you have to be doing the singular exact thing you should never be doing with an Explosive Weapon to do that - shoot towards a direction,then intentionally try to race the Projectile to the end point even though you just fired an Explosive over there. why would you go to there, not only is it dangerous for you to go there, if you just shot Explosives over there, there probably aren't going to be any living Enemies in just a moment so there's no reason for you to go there in particular instead of literally anywhere else.

10 hours ago, Sedk said:

But self-damage forces caution, slows the game down, and contradicts 90% of the weapons and frame abilities, which otherwise reward aggression, charging ahead, and being the first into the fray.

you don't need to stop moving to use Explosive Weapons. you can move quickly through the game while shooting Explosives.

 

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

and it just reads as insecurity and the need to prove you're not a casual or whatever. Meanwhile others are attempting to actually discuss the mechanics and how they work in the game. 

then what about... there are many hundreds and hundreds of Weapons in the game, they do not all need to be Weapons that you like, in fact some of them shouldn't be Weapons that you like, as otherwise the Weapon choices would surely be quite bland and uninteresting to Millions of Players if they were all made to follow one school of thought.

i think we have enough of that in Weapons now as it is, with everything being a Hybrid Weapon now and most things being Crit Slash spammers. why have variety when everything can try to be the same thing, eh?

Edited February 11, 2020 by taiiat

[ES-Flinter]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb GKP_light:

Now, i have the waipon, and can give real value : 

https://imgur.com/a/QP2AO57 : 42273 damage with the 2 mod crite, primed cold damage, and serration.

If i add multishot to can shoot 3 arrow, and the mod for poison damage, it make 171 000 damage when 3 arrow are shot.

Most of the frame don't have 1 710 EHP.

And this build has only 7 mod, there is the place to add a good riven, or heavy calibre, or both and remove the poison mod...

You can probably be over 3000 EHP need. 

So yes, 99% of reduction is not enough.

You are right. Without any abilities and Mods only Grendel and Inaros has over 1710 Ehp (+shield). But Let's just give every Frame the Umbra mod set.

Spoiler

No mods

And with the Umbra mods

 

Like you can see only 11 frames wouldn't survive this. And only 6 of them have no damage mitgation abilities, with them they could avoid their death. 6 out of 70 will die. That's less than 10%. And don't forget there are also abilities which can increase the ehp by a factor of 9 or even more.

To sum it all up. A good modded frame wouldn't die from a weapon, which has cautios shot equipped. Except you use one of the 6.

[CopperBezel]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

then what about... there are many hundreds and hundreds of Weapons in the game, they do not all need to be Weapons that you like, in fact some of them shouldn't be Weapons that you like, as otherwise the Weapon choices would surely be quite bland and uninteresting to Millions of Players if they were all made to follow one school of thought.

i think we have enough of that in Weapons now as it is, with everything being a Hybrid Weapon now and most things being Crit Slash spammers. why have variety when everything can try to be the same thing, eh?

Well, again, the Bramma and Lenz are the closest to having a self-damage mechanic that makes sense in play, and it does give them a bit of distinctiveness. As I've been saying pretty emphatically, I don't think the best option is to replace self-damage with nothing at all. On the vast majority of weapons that employ it, though, it is worse than nothing, and the only variety it adds is to make some middling to weak weapons bad. And I've said before that if the only way to change it would be to replace it with a single universal thing, I'd go with knockdown. (I don't see any really readily available and sensical way to make it meaningful damage but not a one-shot kill, as in games that use self-damage, because frame eHP and weapon damage are wildly dissociated in ways that a simple, static multiplier can't solve.)

Variety is good, weapons that require different play styles are good, being attached to one particular mechanic that's never really made a lot of sense isn't so much. 

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

Bramma is kind of OP. Not only do you easily kill yourself with it, the Lich will one shot you with it.

To self damage, I'd say have it capped at a point. Maybe a percentage of health or something, but it could honestly be taken out (but left it in for Rad). Self damage is fine, but it kind of works against you in a game where you are trying to build the biggest annihilation cannon you can.

[(NSW)StoneGhost]

On 2020-02-09 at 10:51 PM, GKP_light said:

If i can take 1000 damage, and  my bow do 100 000 damage, 99% reduction change nothing. And i don't have 30 000 endo to use on weapon that i don't know if i will use.

it is 2 facts.

And no, it is not what i want. I don't think self-kill have its place in this game.

"You are implying that if DE doesnt fix the thing that makes you mad it will "kill the game"" don't make me say sings that i didn't say. 

It is juste that they create unusable content. i have juste to use all other things in this game. but it is useless to have thing that look good but can not be use.

I would love to play my Lens in arbitration, but it is not possible.

 

"but you're just a vocal minority." : why the Lenz in never play ? because the large majority of the player don't want to take the risk the kill them-self.

 

If i say "they should nerf the adaptation, it make the game too easy excepte when the mob can one-shot you", you are more happy ?

You dont have enough endo, dont like self damage, and dont know if you'll even use it? Cool. Then dont use it. Theres 113 other weapons to choose from. That's a fact too. 

I would argue that you sound entitled for railing against content as "unusable" and suggesting that it needs to play the way you want it to play. For example, I played an ESO with a guy who had Kuva Bramma with Mirage and he never died once. Seemed pretty useable to me. Tell me again why this needs to change?

Lastly, I have no clue what you're implying about adaptation. I am "happy" playing warframe. I'm not even attached to self damage really. I just am getting tired of people telling others to stop liking something that they dont like. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by (NSW)StoneGhost

[Krenlik]

if what Rebecca had on was unmodded, a fully modded one will be worse than Acceltra's self damage. I get that Cautious Shot is a thing, but that also is a -15% damage, and if that thing is capable of what I think could happen when modded right, 99% of quintuple digit damage is still hundreds of points of self damage, and with multishot and the smaller grenades, that 1% of leftover self damage could still be enough to kill you.

 

Well, if Rebecca was slaughtering rooms unmodded, then losing 15% damage for not having a mod isn't that big a deal, right?  🙂

 

Or, you know, have a secondary you can whip out when things get too close.

 

 

[Ikusias]

1 hour ago, Krenlik said:

 

Well, if Rebecca was slaughtering rooms unmodded, then losing 15% damage for not having a mod isn't that big a deal, right?  🙂

 

There, i suspect it was due to devbuild, tecnically she also oneshotted herself a lot of times and survived only due to devmode cheats so no indication of actual weapon damage

[CopperBezel]

Small correction on that quote, but the grenades do not have self-damage, only the main explosion. 

9 hours ago, (NSW)StoneGhost said:

Lastly, I have no clue what you're implying about adaptation.

I feel like I'm the only one to ever complain about Adaptation making things too easy and removing the risk-reward that actually exists in the good mechanics of the game. Perhaps @GKP_light feels similarly. Either way, you might be annoyed at hearing the same arguments against self-damage, but understand that others are equally tired of the same arguments being used to defend it, and some of them just don't add up. "It's a way to keep powerful weapons from being OP" would make some sense if there was any risk of most of the weapons concerned being OP. "I like getting knocked on my ass because it sells me on the idea that this is a big gun" is actually a really good argument for the most part but I think it works poorly with existing game incentives. But "it creates risk and reward based on skill, preventing the game from being too easy" just demonstrably isn't the case in practice at all, and other features (of which Adaptation is an example) are way more suspect. 

(Though it's hilariously convenient that Adaptation, with the most typical enemy damage types tending to fall into Impact, Puncture, Blast, Electricity, and Toxin, won't protect you from Corrosive or Slash, both of which are very effective against our health type, so self-damage is itself basically unaffected.)

Edited February 12, 2020 by CopperBezel

[KCToxic]

I really enjoy the Bramma, it's fun to use and very powerful, but I think it's really hard to use in certain tilesets and if you decide to play with others who can block your shot after you let go of it. Self damage should still be able to kill you, but I think it should just take a percentage of your max health each time instead of dealing the full damage of the weapon to you if you aim too close.

Having a close shot take off like 30% of your max health would be survivable at full health, but it'd force you to be careful. Percentage chunked off could increase the closer you are, without killing you outright unless your remaining health is below that threshold. Losing 30-50% of your health gives you a chance to correct your behavior while still punishing you for being stupid with your Bramma. 

Or they could just make self-damage projectiles go through companions and teammates so they can't body block them. With how loud the Bramma is I doubt anyone wants its shots to be exploding off them anyway. 

[GKP_light]

An good solution that I saw several times is :

When we take a self-it, it deal a fixe amount of damage (as exemple, 200), and proc a blast statue on the warframe.

It solve the problem of self-one-shoot, but you still need to be careful, to not be knockdown.

[(NSW)StoneGhost]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Small correction on that quote, but the grenades do not have self-damage, only the main explosion. 

I feel like I'm the only one to ever complain about Adaptation making things too easy and removing the risk-reward that actually exists in the good mechanics of the game. Perhaps @GKP_light feels similarly. Either way, you might be annoyed at hearing the same arguments against self-damage, but understand that others are equally tired of the same arguments being used to defend it, and some of them just don't add up. "It's a way to keep powerful weapons from being OP" would make some sense if there was any risk of most of the weapons concerned being OP. "I like getting knocked on my ass because it sells me on the idea that this is a big gun" is actually a really good argument for the most part but I think it works poorly with existing game incentives. But "it creates risk and reward based on skill, preventing the game from being too easy" just demonstrably isn't the case in practice at all, and other features (of which Adaptation is an example) are way more suspect. 

(Though it's hilariously convenient that Adaptation, with the most typical enemy damage types tending to fall into Impact, Puncture, Blast, Electricity, and Toxin, won't protect you from Corrosive or Slash, both of which are very effective against our health type, so self-damage is itself basically unaffected.)

Interesting point and I see what you mean. Two diametrically opposed arguments and it seems like you want to just tighten up the game mechanics to be more consistent. While I'm sympathetic to that, I also think the way things are appeals to a broader audience by placating everyone regardless of preference. I cant find fault with that approach other than inconsistency. There are arguably enough options available that theres no need for anyone to settle for anything they dont like, which is why I find the argument that something needs to change a bit aggravating (especially when many people, myself included, enjoy the very thing GKP thinks is going to "kill the game").

I also dont find the game too easy, even with adaptation. I'm around 1,000ish hours in so far and still find challenging content to wrestle with. The one argument I violently agree with is that the difficulty is inconsistent and goes from mediocre to excessive without much middle ground. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by (NSW)StoneGhost

[CopperBezel]

And obviously, we pick our own difficult level to an extent. Normal content like sorties and liches aren't getting my most optimal arrangement of frame and gear with the most optimal build, they're getting a frame with some decent abilities I like to play, a build that contributes to that fun, and weapons that look good with the frame and interact well with their abilities and movement. My current Nova setup gets ganked a looooot and I'm almost always getting at least one or two sentinel revives along the way. 

But yeah, I can't see self-damage as anything so extreme in either direction. It's certainly not "killing the game" when it shows up on a randomly selected half of explosive weapons. Meanwhile, because it is so spotty and because it's mechanically so out of step with the rest of the game, I just can't really believe that it's going to completely ruin your experience of the game to have it replaced with knockdown and a percentage health ding or something. To me it's just this weird bit of cruft from the game's deep past that just feels a lot like some of the older and memeyer bugs that have never quite been fixed. Or oddly like Thunderbolt, the explosive arrow mod with a fixed damage value.

[rstripn]

On 2020-02-06 at 11:52 AM, [DE]Marcus said:

Thanks for the feedback! We've heard the requests to negate the self-damage of the Bramma, so expect something to that extent. Cautious Shot doesn't work on bows outright so expect a bow specific version! 

I love the Lenz and I love the Kuva Bramma, but they are so much more powerful for AoE than any non-bow primary launcher that it is ridiculous. Cautious Shot would be meaningless on them as it exists; 15% less damage is nothing compared to their output. Please if you must release a bow version make it a much harsher penalty; if not massive damage reduction then a significant drop in AoE effectiveness.

Side note: The same is not true for the Zhuge Prime; it would work just fine with the existing Cautious Shot.

Edited February 25, 2020 by rstripn
added note RE zhuge prime