Primary Kitguns and the Kitgun Disaster of 2020

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, --C--Nehra said:

lol, I didn't see a question in his statement! How come you did? 

He put it as a surprise that a weapon is released and then is changed based on a bunch of people using it. It isn't a surprise. Every single weapon has had at least one change after its release.

I don't get upset when the tide goes out and I build a sandcastle and the tide comes in and washes it away. There's a literal schedule to it. Whining that a game in active development doesn't treat your fave as sacrosanct is bizarre. Why play the game if you aren't actually willing to engage with the development of it?

[Diangelius]

I did not watch the stream, but did any DE mention anything about official stats of these primary kitguns or did they claim that primary kitguns would have the same stats as secondary ones ?

I want to wait for official numbers before accepting any rant and personal suggestions.

[Chicken-Biryani]

Just now, peterc3 said:

He put it as a surprise that a weapon is released and then is changed based on a bunch of people using it. It isn't a surprise. Every single weapon has had at least one change after its release.

I don't get upset when the tide goes out and I build a sandcastle and the tide comes in and washes it away. There's a literal schedule to it. Whining that a game in active development doesn't treat your fave as sacrosanct is bizarre. Why play the game if you aren't actually willing to engage with the development of it?

Yup, gotcha. 👍

[Diavoros]

2 hours ago, HamletEagle said:

I honestly thought DE learned from their previous mistakes, but here we are again

My point is, and i'll make it short:

1. Secondary Kitguns when they were available, everyone went nuts for them. Stats were very good and rivens made the weapons overpowered. I'm looking at you Catchmoon / Tombfinger. When this happened, ALL and I mean ALL Secondaries were overshadowed by the sheer force of these weapons. I would dare say that 50% of the playerbase was using a kitgun, and stats showed that Catchmoon was the most used weapon, not a surprise. It was powerful, cleared entired groups of enemies, fun and satisfying to use, and after the hitbox was fixed on the projectile it was godly. Powerful, fast, INFINITE AMMO with Pax Charge or even more damage with Pax Seeker. Not just secondaries were overshadowed by this, and primaries as well. I was using my catchmoon 90% of the time, I even have a riven for it, it was that good. And the best part about Kitgun, you are able to build them however you want. You want more speed? you could build for more speed. You want more CC? You could build for more CC. 

2. Now this brings me to my 2nd point, and what I predict would happen. Primary Kitguns happen, they are very powerful, ALL Primaries will be overshadowed again by these weapons. Same thing will happen. Now what? i'm gonna see everyone with a primary Catchmoon and Tombfinger running around now? Is the riven market for these weapons going to explode again? Traders asking 1000 plat, 2000 plat and even 4-6k+ plat for a single riven, again? 

 

What must be done: OVERHAUL all stats of primary weapons. Primaries are static weapons, they can't be customized with different parts to suit a player's choice. You can't put Pax Augments in them. They don't have infinite ammo, or seeking missiles that target the head. 

Now what i'm asking is a lot, but BALANCE is important. Overhauling all stats of primaries to avoid a 2019 situation would be a tremendous task. You can make it shorter by overhauling the stats of weapons that are being used the most often. DE has the stats for that, we don't. Overhauling is vague so i'll explain a little more. What I want is to increases the stats of certain weapons, make them better. increase CC, Status, fire rate, reload speed and so on. Increasing the stats on a weapon, just by a little will have a big impact and if you balance it just right, certain MR fodder weapons will lose the status of "MR Fodder"

Players want harder content, they will get it. Stronger weapons are required. Armor will get reworked, Shields will get reworked. What about the old weapons? Are they going to be forgotten?

"They are end-game weapons, so they should be powerful" - Venus is literally the 2nd planet you unlock as a new player... Can a new player if he grinds ENOUGH reputation, build them? Or at least a kitgun powerful enough to clear most of the star chat? Of course he can. Did I mention they don't have an MR requirement?

 

Extra note: I would love to more options for primary kitguns, not just a copy-paste from secondary kitguns. Where's my primary shotgun kitgun DE?

Consider the following: Rifle and Shotgun mods are weaker than Secondary when it comes to Critical Chance, Critical Damage, Multishot and Damage so even if they use the shame chambers, I don't think they will be stronger than their current counterparts.
I am disappointed though that modular primary weapons will be such a lazy thing as using the assets of the current modular secondaries. I was looking forward to another faction's modular primary weapons, such as sentient or grineer.

[HamletEagle]

1 hour ago, OrokinShrapnel said:

Imagine taking rivens into account for anything. 90% of people arent gonna have the riven to make it OP, base it off the actual mods everyone has.

I took Rivens into consideration because they are part of the game. Not taking them into consideration would be a foolish thing to do. As I stated above, the stats on the kitguns were very good. If a weapon has very good stats, adding a riven WOULD make the weapon overpowered, in this case, it made secondary kitguns overpowered. 

Looking at the current disposition of the rivens from what it used to be and what it is now, it is more than clear, that adding a riven to an already very good weapon would make it overpowered (otherwise DE would not touch the disposition of the riven or stats of the weapon, to make players use something else). Catchmoon for example, went from 3/5 riven, to a measly 1/5 (0.5). Of course they would nerf the riven dispo of such a good gun. After all these nerfs, Catchmoon with Haymaker and Splat is still ONE of the BEST secondary weapons out there. 

You come to a point when you like a weapon so much, you are thinking of getting a riven, it's only natural, in my case was Catchmoon. I loved the weapon so much I used it all way, until Kuva Brakk came out cause nothing else satisfied me damage wise / clearing as catchmoon did. And I still switch between my Kuva Brakk and Catchmoon every now and then

[seprent]

2 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

you could just put the Synth set on literally any companion

*laughs in synth deconstruct*

1 hour ago, Yakhul said:

Still dont get how Riven dispo nerf = Weapon nerf

lower damage = nerf to angy riven users most the time even if its just still one shots but with a lower number 

1 hour ago, Diangelius said:

did any DE mention anything about official stats of these primary kitguns

no stats only looks granted they look neat and my gf is excited to make another gaze kitgun 

19 minutes ago, HamletEagle said:

You come to a point when you like a weapon so much, you are thinking of getting a riven, it's only natural, in my case was Catchmoon. I loved the weapon so much I used it all way, until Kuva Brakk came out cause nothing else satisfied me damage wise / clearing as catchmoon did. And I still switch between my Kuva Brakk and Catchmoon every now and then

this is why i base the weapons i use off look and if they entertain me and avoid the clear meta trap weapons unless their aesthetic really interests me like i remember the araca plasmor meta idk if that still going on but i hated using it when i was leveling it because i spend the whole time i was poking at this clearly unfinished shotgun that some mook grabbed off the assembly line and said good enough and didnt explode shooting it 

Edited February 1, 2020 by seprent

[Skaleek]

3 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Like they nerfed the kitguns.

Except they didn't nerf them. They can still melt the new Railjack enemies.

Actually, they did nerf them, but they can still melt enemies.

[Reifnir]

You're forgetting that Primary mods are noticeably inferior in raw stats compared to secondary mods. 

There's no Primed Point Strike and Primed Vital Sense. Split Chamber is 90% and not 120%. Serration is not 220%. They have a Primed Cold damage mod which, tbh, is worse than a Primed Heat mod secondaries have. No Lethal Torrent, too.

If anything, we'll see a spike in Kuva Weapon usage now that you can reliably farm a perfect 60% roll on anything you need. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Reifnir

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, Hyrianeth said:

Here i am trying to understand how Catchmoon or even Tombfinger comes even close to Gaze's DPS. Bruh, these 2 kitguns are sooo overrated.

Stahpitu! Why you give away secrets and support wit’ da maths?

Next thing you will be talking about how the 3.0 Melee Lesion smashes Most Zaws with Rivens...

Awww, CR*P.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I'm surprised they haven't offered any new chambers, to maybe give players who have used up all the other Chambers on the secondary kitguns an incentive to go through the whole process again. as it stands, only the people who want them for the sake of wanting them will make them; there's no MR tied to them and if the chambers and other parts are the same, won't the stats be the same as well? that means no return of the overpowered Catchmoon, just the ability to have two of them at once for the memes.

I want to be hyped for these, but I don't see any reason when they're just the same old kitguns on a bigger receiver.

[Tenno76856]

So its a disaster catchmoon got arguably nerfed.

Where is primary kitguns been mentioned in DE streams?

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Yah, but most importantly, y'know, is that the Flux Rifle Needs Love.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

Riven disposition is such a lazy system... Does a weapon have to have a 0.5 to be considered for a nerf?

 

its AFK dev work. Shameful.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

Or, and bear with me here because I'm going to throw out a truly mind-blowing concept here, you could just decide to not play kitguns. 

Warframe is easy. So much so that the concept of "meta" means nothing: 90% of the content can be taken care of with any weapon modded in any way, and that last 10%... Well sure, a kitgun can destroy it in 10 seconds, but a pyrana prime cand do the same in like 12. Are 2 seconds a difference so big to justify the very idea of "meta", or the balance shifting thereof?

Same thing with rivens: I see people be like "oh no if the market explodes I will have to pay 3k plat for a riven", and I'm like, just don't buy it. You don't need it. Those 2 seconds you shave off your kill time are not worth killing your enjoyment of the game, much less your bank account, for.

So if you don't like a kind of weapon, just don't play it. I know I never did and likely never will, albeit for different reasons.

[AzureTerra]

Meh, more ****guns.

[Myscho]

They dont give mastery, so ill pass

[Tenno76856]

1 hour ago, Myscho said:

They dont give mastery, so ill pass

they wont?

[Myscho]

1 hour ago, NigglesAU said:

they wont?

If i heard right Rebecca said there wont be new chambers

Edited February 2, 2020 by Myscho

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, NigglesAU said:

they wont?

nope, mastery for kitguns comes from their barrels and it appears we'll be using the existing barrels and not new ones for the primaries. 

[Tekkarath]

There are already too few different types of kitguns, 4 is not enough.  There are like 11 different strikes that can be used for Zaws, which basically makes 22 different types of weapons depending on the grip used.

There are literally only 4 kitguns you can make, it doesn't matter what parts you use, it's essentially the same gun no matter the parts.  Changing the size of the gun will have zero effect on how fun they are to use for me, I've already experienced these four and am sick of them.  I've long since gone back to using non-kitguns since maxing out the four current ones.  I've only recently started making Zaws and now have about eight of them, A short grip and a long grip for each of my favorite strikes, all built a bit differently (And thanks to the recent plague star a fully maxed exodia epidemic).  After having so much fun with the Zaws I quickly realized I never had that moment with Kitguns, sure it was a bit fun at first but I was never super thrilled since I had so few choices.  I knew immediately after reading the descriptions that Gaze would be my favorite, and of course Catchmoon was good for a bit, until I realized everyone used it at which point I dropped it like a rock.

The only way I see this making kitguns more interesting is if they add some part that gives the weapon an alt fire that isn't available as a secondary weapon.  Otherwise I have no need to built kitgun primaries.

[Leavith]

On 2020-02-01 at 9:14 AM, HamletEagle said:

I honestly thought DE learned from their previous mistakes, but here we are again

My point is, and i'll make it short:

1. Secondary Kitguns when they were available, everyone went nuts for them. Stats were very good and rivens made the weapons overpowered. I'm looking at you Catchmoon / Tombfinger. When this happened, ALL and I mean ALL Secondaries were overshadowed by the sheer force of these weapons. I would dare say that 50% of the playerbase was using a kitgun, and stats showed that Catchmoon was the most used weapon, not a surprise. It was powerful, cleared entired groups of enemies, fun and satisfying to use, and after the hitbox was fixed on the projectile it was godly. Powerful, fast, INFINITE AMMO with Pax Charge or even more damage with Pax Seeker. Not just secondaries were overshadowed by this, and primaries as well. I was using my catchmoon 90% of the time, I even have a riven for it, it was that good. And the best part about Kitgun, you are able to build them however you want. You want more speed? you could build for more speed. You want more CC? You could build for more CC. 

2. Now this brings me to my 2nd point, and what I predict would happen. Primary Kitguns happen, they are very powerful, ALL Primaries will be overshadowed again by these weapons. Same thing will happen. Now what? i'm gonna see everyone with a primary Catchmoon and Tombfinger running around now? Is the riven market for these weapons going to explode again? Traders asking 1000 plat, 2000 plat and even 4-6k+ plat for a single riven, again? 

 

What must be done: OVERHAUL all stats of primary weapons. Primaries are static weapons, they can't be customized with different parts to suit a player's choice. You can't put Pax Augments in them. They don't have infinite ammo, or seeking missiles that target the head. 

Now what i'm asking is a lot, but BALANCE is important. Overhauling all stats of primaries to avoid a 2019 situation would be a tremendous task. You can make it shorter by overhauling the stats of weapons that are being used the most often. DE has the stats for that, we don't. Overhauling is vague so i'll explain a little more. What I want is to increases the stats of certain weapons, make them better. increase CC, Status, fire rate, reload speed and so on. Increasing the stats on a weapon, just by a little will have a big impact and if you balance it just right, certain MR fodder weapons will lose the status of "MR Fodder"

Players want harder content, they will get it. Stronger weapons are required. Armor will get reworked, Shields will get reworked. What about the old weapons? Are they going to be forgotten?

"They are end-game weapons, so they should be powerful" - Venus is literally the 2nd planet you unlock as a new player... Can a new player if he grinds ENOUGH reputation, build them? Or at least a kitgun powerful enough to clear most of the star chat? Of course he can. Did I mention they don't have an MR requirement?

 

Extra note: I would love to more options for primary kitguns, not just a copy-paste from secondary kitguns. Where's my primary shotgun kitgun DE?

Look at the history of thread updates, and you will have your answers. Nothing stays OP forever and it isn't because someone cried that was OP that it was fixed but because PC are the field tester then stuff gets balance

[Demaneth]

On 2020-02-01 at 7:06 PM, Diavoros said:

Consider the following: Rifle and Shotgun mods are weaker than Secondary when it comes to Critical Chance, Critical Damage, Multishot and Damage so even if they use the shame chambers, I don't think they will be stronger than their current counterparts.
I am disappointed though that modular primary weapons will be such a lazy thing as using the assets of the current modular secondaries. I was looking forward to another faction's modular primary weapons, such as sentient or grineer.

^^^This... I was hoping the same. Maybe for future with other desing but this was dissapointing when I saw it.

Btw why always ppl take in to account rivens¿? I dont care about rivens and I know most ppl have rivens for their favs, but not everyone have rivs for kitguns.

On 2020-02-02 at 7:59 PM, Tekkarath said:

There are already too few different types of kitguns, 4 is not enough.  There are like 11 different strikes that can be used for Zaws, which basically makes 22 different types of weapons depending on the grip used.

There are literally only 4 kitguns you can make, it doesn't matter what parts you use, it's essentially the same gun no matter the parts.  Changing the size of the gun will have zero effect on how fun they are to use for me, I've already experienced these four and am sick of them.  I've long since gone back to using non-kitguns since maxing out the four current ones.  I've only recently started making Zaws and now have about eight of them, A short grip and a long grip for each of my favorite strikes, all built a bit differently (And thanks to the recent plague star a fully maxed exodia epidemic).  After having so much fun with the Zaws I quickly realized I never had that moment with Kitguns, sure it was a bit fun at first but I was never super thrilled since I had so few choices.  I knew immediately after reading the descriptions that Gaze would be my favorite, and of course Catchmoon was good for a bit, until I realized everyone used it at which point I dropped it like a rock.

The only way I see this making kitguns more interesting is if they add some part that gives the weapon an alt fire that isn't available as a secondary weapon.  Otherwise I have no need to built kitgun primaries.

Agree on all this too. Whit the absurd number of weapons we have I will never understand why ppl keep using always the same guns. I did high level content with other weapons with no problem. If you guys always use the same op weapon for everything is your problem. As Tekkarath said, if this new kitguns dont need any mr exp and dont give to us new mechanics or diferent alt fire, I will probably not care at all in building any

Edited February 3, 2020 by Demaneth

[AandOE]

I want my Primary Kitgun to shoot Poptart Kavats with exploding rainbow shards, just to lighten up the mood. And then another one can have the bulk of its model be this giant proton pack on one's back, requiring you to hit the alternate fire button to capture every enemy instead of just straight up murderizing them. Then there can be this one gun, which lobs these hand sized Grendel Balls at enemies for capturing, to let me spew them back out at their friends with at least one of four different attacks per use. After that, I'd love to get a Primary Kitgun Board, that lets me just ice skate all over the place (1m attack range!) and then go in for absolutely monstrous attack animations using button mashings worth at least 100 gigatons. And then.... and then!!!!!!

[(PSN)thowed]

A gift of the lotus alert with 3 or 4 primary kitgun rivens after completion should happen the first weekend after release.  I'd love to see the riven market for them instantly flooded.  At least most people would get to enjoy them before the inevitable nerf hammer swings down.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2020-02-01 at 8:22 AM, Skaleek said:

They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

And I was starting to think I was the only one noticing that trend. 

On 2020-02-01 at 8:27 AM, enemystand said:

Primary weapons don't have the crazy multishot and crit mods that secondary weapons have at the moment, i don't think they will be better than secondary kitguns, except if you are using rivens because they should have different disposition, unless they play it safe and go with the 0.5 dispo from the start.
but anyway we need to wait to see the stats to get a better idea on how will they perform.

Secondaries dont have hunter munitions though.