Primary Kitguns and the Kitgun Disaster of 2020

[Tyreaus]

I doubt I'm the only one and kitguns only overshadow other weapons when the performance becomes necessary, e.g. in Railjack missions or if I'm on a mission to have modular everything. I have a Lex Prime and Sybaris Prime and they find some good use. So:

On 2020-02-01 at 7:14 AM, HamletEagle said:

What must be done: OVERHAUL all stats of primary weapons. Primaries are static weapons, they can't be customized with different parts to suit a player's choice. You can't put Pax Augments in them. They don't have infinite ammo, or seeking missiles that target the head. 

Colour me controversial but I think what really 'needs' to be done is an overhaul to ... something. Likely something major, though I can't for sure say what that'd be. Because one core reason kitguns outperform everything is because so much rests on stats. How well a weapon handles, like whether it's hitscan or has high recoil, matters so little in the face of stats. If, relative to gameplay stats, those elements mattered more—and, more substantially, mattered more or less depending on the player—it'd be much easier to pick up something like a Lex.

That part kind of states the obvious, I know, and buffing other primaries (maybe secondaries too) would fix the issue. For now. But there's still a core "we must go bigger" problem sitting at the heart of things. Weapon stats have to go up. Damage output has to go up. Enemy stats have to go up. Everything must be bigger and better than everything else before it. It's not stable. It always has to be adjusted again and again. But, surely, there has to be a better way to do things....

On 2020-02-01 at 7:14 AM, HamletEagle said:

I would love to more options for primary kitguns, not just a copy-paste from secondary kitguns. Where's my primary shotgun kitgun DE?

They'll be coming around. They're likely sticking with just primaries for now to polish up other parts of the update they have planned and deliver on something that was promoted since kitguns became a thing at all. I'd like a proper shotgun too, but if I have to wait for that to not have another Lich or Railjack fiasco, I'll take it.

[Akai-no-bara]

The vicious cycle of new weapons. Insert animal crossing music and tf2 editing.

[IIDMOII]

It will be just as bad and once people have invested in them and consumed the content loop, they'll nerf them. 

Like most content they release it's just fotm baiting to keep people occupied. They will be meta until DE decides they want to start selling new weapons. 

 

 

[DragoonStorm1]

On 2020-02-01 at 8:52 PM, Skaleek said:

They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

preach

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Kitguns got nerfed.  And personally the modelular gear has always been too ugly for me to stand using.  Now that we can use skins on zaws.  I'm using mine though some skins are bugged.  And kitguns will get to use skins to but since they are nerfed a d they won't be as good.

Ill only make a rattleguts style primary the hell with the rest.

As for rivens.  Nothing in the game is worth more then 150 plat max.  You stupidly wasted your plat.  Lol at the fools selling stuff for such absurd prices.

Edited February 6, 2020 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[Graavarg]

On 2020-02-01 at 4:14 PM, HamletEagle said:

And the best part about Kitgun, you are able to build them however you want. You want more speed? you could build for more speed. You want more CC? You could build for more CC.

The most important thing (and it is the same with Zaws): you can roll your riven first and then plan/build your kitgun according to the riven, instead of the other way around. This allows you to totally maximize the capabilities of your weapon, and it is also a lot of fun. Of course, DE is now analyzing and changing the disposition for rivens for modular weapons, so having 101% crit/status chance isn't really all that "safe" anymore, but still...

[vegetosayajin]

People don't use only kitguns anymore.They are still the strongest but are only 4...I see people use random stuff just to make it more interesting.
I suppose the same thing will happen with the primary ones much much sooner.Give it a couple of months and the hype will die down.

[Voltage]

On 2020-02-01 at 12:28 PM, peterc3 said:

You're taking part in developing the game. That is DE's playbook. Why ask if this new thing might be altered in the future when you know the answer and should "invest" accordingly.

Or you know, DE could actually identify mechanics that are OP and not release something bound to burn investments later. If you think Catchmoon was the first non-self damage projectile weapon with AoE and high Crits/Damage, you are sorely mistaken. Tonkor and Catchmoon were OP for having fundamentally the same mechanics. It shouldn't be the player's responsibility to show DE something they should already know and should have learned from. They didn't by the way, as Shedu is the latest installment of the Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, Arca Plasmor, and Catchmoon train).

On topic, unless 2-handed grips come with upgraded stats, you actually get a weaker kitgun due to Riven Dispositions already being low (unless they count as a new "variant" and have a 1.00 Disposition that gets nerfed later), and the fact primary damage/multishot/critical mods do not have nearly the same percentages as their secondary counterparts.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Voltage

[Zebiko]

Either new stuff is better than the older stuff, and people complain about power creep, or new stuff is weaker and people complain no point/uselessness. There is a chance the new stuff is perfectly balanced, not the new best, not the worst, but that's a slim chance. I'd rather have more powerful new stuff.

[vegetosayajin]

7 minutes ago, Voltage said:

...

All of that is true, but primaries have hunter munitions and the vigilante set.I think this is the biggest factor. I imagine a suped-up gaze with hunter mumu...

[SW___]

On 2020-02-01 at 7:22 AM, Skaleek said:

They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

LOL A player that see it like it is!

I use to max everthing that came out. Now only if I really like it, Not worth losing all the time and PL .

So player, don't waste you pl on a bramma riven! Its not  if bramma will be nerf,  its when it will be nerf!

 

[CaptainMinty]

Honestly, kitguns are the least of my worries when it comes to primaries. They'll be good, but odds are they won't overshadow anything. At best they'll be a side-grade. Think about it. Kitguns for secondaries needed to be better than a majority of secondaries because of how much work was needed to acquire one. But at the same time, they went too far. Kitguns outpaced pretty much every other secondary. Namely because, well, most of our secondary choices kinda suck. Even the Lex Prime doesn't hit that hard anymore, and I remember when that thing was the literal god handcannon of secondaries. Good times those were. We needed something to breathe life into secondaries. Catchmoon did. Way too well. We need more than just one gun. We need more better secondaries. I'm not asking for my pistol to rend flesh as effectively as my rifle, but at least doing something would be nice.

But I digress. The reason I don't think the primary kitguns will be anywhere near as gamechanging as the secondary ones were is because of just how many viable primaries we have. Plus the incentive to put in work for them? Minimal considering a good amount of us probably already have done Fortuna to maximum and will have them right away.

[George_PPS]

All primary weapons urgently need huge buffs to make them more fun. 

[AzureTerra]

"other weapons were overshadowed" hmm nope, my favorites were never threatened by a bunch of ****guns. I was singularly disappointed with the tombfinger to the extent that i haven't bothered making anymore of them.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

That was not short but I completely agree.

 

One thing that may help is to allow all weapons to use the Pax stuff.

[theMangoose]

On 2020-03-20 at 6:44 AM, George_PPS said:

All primary weapons urgently need huge buffs to make them more fun. 

I agree. At the same time, though, our best Primaries are very powerful - as opposed to the top end of 2ndaries being "weaker" than the primaries before kitguns, imo. I don't think it's power creep as much as the old stuff need to be improved.

Besides, consider that if this was done with power-creep in Primaries... All primary kitguns would be stronger than the Bramma. That ain't gonna happen. Or at least that ain't gonna last. If they actually do that, there will be backlash from us.

That being said, JUST IN CASE this S#&$ happens, we need to immediately start whinin - I mean providing constructive criticism. :p

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

Kuva weapons aren't overpowered? Try getting a nukor or Bramma riven right now and see how much people are charging. 

The point is the new shiny thing, the current fad is always used by a period of time by a lit of the player base.

Look at the catchmoon and Tombfinger kitguns now. They are still very good and you can still get very good rivens for them but their at current overshadowed by some of the Kuva weapons (namely the two weapons I mentioned). 

I fully expect primary kitguns to be popular for a bit then tailor off.

[Hypernaut1]

i wonder if its the same people complaining about investing in powerful new guns every time, or is it a new salty poster every time?

Whenever im enjoying a powerful weapon, i automatically figure it may or may not get "balanced". I still mod it accordingly because 9/10 the weapon is still good enough to use after changes. Im less worried about our power and more concerned about ever even needing to use such power in the first place. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[Galuf]

Depending on the arcanes and mechanics it may get few niches. Since kuva weapons, the ceiling is imho too high for modular gear to compete except if every modular gear get a new awakened state or something that goes beyon guilded..

[HeartPurity]

I still dont get the mindset of nerfing what is fun, bramma is top tier and fun to use and I got a good riven for it but now what am I using? Shedu, cernos prime sometimes even glaxion vandal. When players are bored, we will go find other weapons instead of what DE worries: they will camp on a meta weapon and eventually leave the game after boredom. Players leave when you keep on nerfing what they enjoy. Focus on making new fun contents instead of nerfing.  

[Goliat1988]

Just wondering... As we saw in home dev stream, what kitgun will become (primary or secondary) depends from Grip.

What about rivens? There is "KITGUN" riven, not "SECONDARY KITGUN RIVEN" so will i be able to put my Catchmoon riven to primary catchmoon gun? 🤔

Example- Brash. Last sentence

[rapt0rman]

22 minutes ago, Goliat1988 said:

Just wondering... As we saw in home dev stream, what kitgun will become (primary or secondary) depends from Grip.

What about rivens? There is "KITGUN" riven, not "SECONDARY KITGUN RIVEN" so will i be able to put my Catchmoon riven to primary catchmoon gun? 🤔

Example- Brash. Last sentence

Yes, a Catchmoon riven is a Catchmoon riven whether it's on a primary or a secondary, the same way that a Cyath riven is the same whether it's on a polearm or a machete.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

On 2020-02-01 at 9:30 AM, Yakhul said:

Still dont get how Riven dispo nerf = Weapon nerf. In the case of the catchmoon, the only thing that was nerfed was its falloff damage. But the other kitguns were untouched if i remember correctly, only their riven dispo got lowered.

Because nuance and attention to detail is hard.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

On 2020-03-19 at 11:44 PM, George_PPS said:

All primary weapons urgently need huge buffs to make them more fun. 

"Fun" means just buffing everything huh?

[Jarriaga]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

"Fun" means just buffing everything huh?

I find such requests to be amusing.

1) They ignore that all primaries already got their stats adjusted back on early 2018.

2) They ignore that since it's 1 weapon overshadowing 100 that already got their stats adjusted, that 1 weapon is by definition an outlier.

3) They'd rather have outliers become the norm, effectively negating the balance pass of 2018.

4) It shows they didn't listen to or learned nothing from Pablo's recent interview by Shy, in which he directly addresses this approach and why that is not a good idea.