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The current state of glaives


Litus42
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The main problem with glaives is that, while they got buffed as melee weapons as most melee weapons did, the thrown behaviour got nerfed in several ways.

It's important to understand that there are two very different ways of using glaives: with a sidearm (dual wield) or without (equipped melee).

When used in dual wield mode you are able to throw from the air, and throw with punch through. However you are unable to block (neither manually nor automatically), and your stance is overridden, replaced with a basic 2-attack combo that doesn't have any forced status procs. When dual wielding the speed of the throwing animation is affected by speed mods.

The above behaviours are reversed when using glaives as equipped melee. In addition the throwing animation is affected by heavy attack speed mods (Killing Blow, Amalgam Organ Shatter), but also gains some small benefit from attack speed mods.

No matter which mode you use thrown glaives gain no benefit from Condition Overload, and the heavy attack (the detonation) can't crit, making it weaker than a regular throw in most situations.

Glaives also still cause self damage. With hold melee to throw (which is still on glaives) you can blow yourself up instantly with high attack speed. Additionally the Power Throw mod no longer has any effect, with glaives bouncing off enemies even on headshots, and not piercing bubbles or shields 

Considering glaives can't utilize the heavy attack in conjunction with critical damage, which is something all other melee weapons can leverage, the detonation is pointless for anything beyond killing very low level enemies. Putting 5 forma, a riven, and maxed Primed and Sacrificial mods into a Glaive Prime only to do nothing with a 12x multiplier doesn't feel good.

Could we please get official word of what's going to be done about this?

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I think it would certainly be a start. I'd like it if they'd fix Condition Overload as well, but I could see arguments against it, as it was pretty insane in the past. Still, in their current state glaives are simply not viable with heavy attacks, so something needs to happen.

Most importantly the way they currently work isn't due to balance changes or conscious decisions on the part of DE, these are bugs.

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On 2020-02-01 at 11:12 AM, Litus42 said:

It's important to understand that there are two very different ways of using glaives: with a sidearm (dual wield) or without (equipped melee).

This isn't quite as major as other parts (all of which I agree with), but I'd kind of like this to be done with. Mainly, give us throw options on "hold melee" without needing to dual wield, and clean up the mess of a stat screen that I still haven't been able to decipher what's dual-wield and what isn't.

Dual wielding was something that had benefit before quick-swapping to melee became a thing. Now it benefits Glaives only, and only because there's an insistence in keeping the two parts separate.

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I agree that dual wield isn't a necessity though I've personally enjoyed it. The reason I pointed it out is that some people have differing experiences of glaives as they're only using one of these modes (or sometimes just melee).

Due to dual wield being mostly untouched by Old Blood (melee 3.0) it actually performs better as far as damage and usability. It's main drawback for our discussion is the inability to block, a major part of the changes introduced.

Of course the changes heavy attacks, crit, and Condition Overload received not benefitting glaives is still a major problem.

I find it quite discouraging that DE rolled out the Orvius bandaid fix without addressing any of this.

Edited by Litus42
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i generall agree with you. But i think Glaives in general are quite usable espacially with dual wielding in my option (i use status 1handed secondary and the a crit glaive with condition overload).

The problem/bad part is, that throwing is weird. i think they added somekind of homeing to it atleast it seems that way since when u throw it in a group especially around the feet it bounces between the group.

As far as i remeber powerthrow added automatic detonation on last hit (so - bounce + powerthrow ment detonation on first enemy hit) but i havent used it since detonation is way to weak to be useable besides unfortunalty killing ursself.

on to dualwield: i have no idea what the "perfect" thow charge indicator means and what it does as it somehow just looks and acts the same as normal throw. i only know its affected by attack speed mods.

maybe make it actually homing on nearest enemy to mouse when perfect charged at cost of projectile speed

then add what @xcrimsonlegendx for the detonation said, so it atleast has some scaling option. aswell as overworking the dmg type it can apply (most i think deal blast, cerata - toxin and orvious cold, but none has a physical dmg side to it. I dont know about the status chance of the detonation but when its not 100% its to low )

Just got this crazy idea, the detonation, should be the "heavy melee, slam attack suspension thing". then it probably wouldnt even be such a huge problem that it doesnt crit or deals not great dmg, since it is somesort of decent cc and possible could add status effects. pls gib glaive zaw with it (exodias/contagious would work great with it)

Also the areal attack melee range mod should maybe affect the range of detonation. To this, no idea how +Range works with this, doesnt affect explosion range and i think it only allows for further travler but doesnt give bigger hitbox to glaive?

 

i dont know how it would be implentable but personally id like to see the range of the explosion indicated, its less of a problem if self dmg is removed but it would still help to maximaze its usefullness. Also its hard to know or see how far the glaive will fly unless uve used it for a longer period of time.

and i think orvious special homing ability is bugged

 

 

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To address a few of your points:

Dual wield for the purpose of applying statuses is pointless if you intend to throw the glaive as Condition Overload doesn't work with throws.

Power Throw doesn't automatically detonate the glaive anymore. The patch that changed it supposedly removed self-damage from glaives, but all it did was remove the functionality from Power Throw. To add to this it doesn't seem to provide actual punch through.

In dual wield all throws after the blue indicator shows up are "perfect throws". It doesn't seem to be a timing window as much as a delay. The perfect throw provides slightly higher damage and punchthrough. It's the only way to get punchthrough right now.

I don't think glaives need any radical new ideas to make them viable. They were viable before the Old Blood update and yet very few used them. They were always clunky and required setup to work optimally in a game where Maiming Strike was a thing. Now that we have most melee weapons shredding level 150+ enemies with little effort glaives will still be for style points at best.

Having said that I think if DE wanted to implement new mechanics to reinvent the play style of glaives I'd welcome it as long as they were made worthwhile. Currently they're only any good as melee weapons, and not very good as those due to terrible range and no actual heavy attacks.

Edited by Litus42
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What I don’t like about glaives is true melee mode is very weak. My Pathocyst is barely scratching Sortie level heavy units in full melee.
I don’t like dual wielding and prefer to use full melee instead but the current state of glaives “forces” me to use them if I want my glaive to deal reasonable damage.

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Just to confirm, when you say full melee mode you mean throwing with the glaive fully equipped right? I find the Glaive Prime quite a capable melee weapon with a riven, but the throws as you say are terrible.

Dual wield is OK for a hybrid playstyle, as you only need attack speed, not heavy attack speed.

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14 minutes ago, Litus42 said:

I find the Glaive Prime quite a capable melee weapon with a riven,

Well Pathocyst isn’t the same as glaive prime and rivens should not dignify the weapon’s performance. I also find glaive stances to be pretty clunky. One of the main gripes of them is I can’t control which direction the glaive is going if I am doing combos. So If I try to aim up or down during the combo my character throws the glaive straight ahead instead of up or down or where the reticle is at.

I can aim where the energy wave is going with Excalibur’s Exalted Blade and Baruuk’s Desert Wind, why not glaives? 
 

Edited by DrivaMain
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@DrivaMain

As another pathocyst user I can say I too struggle with the thing, honestly. Haven't found a build that really works without speccing heavily into attack speed to overcome the ludicrously slow base speed of the thing. That and the maggots are almost useless, they die way to fast and do almost no damage at all. You'd think that they're a gimmick that should make up for the lacking crit stat and speed but they don't. They need to be much more useful to justify their existence. Almost as if the thing not only has issues because of the weapon class it occupies but the weapon itself being... kinda bad.

Edited by xcrimsonlegendx
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On 2020-02-05 at 10:42 AM, Litus42 said:

I agree that dual wield isn't a necessity though I've personally enjoyed it.

it's basically just a Cosmetic thing at this point though - Instant Switch means that you can always Melee, Throw and Shoot essentially seamlessly.
so it's definitely time to just axe it, because well, we have it innately so all the 'official feature' actually does is nerf you. it was a good idea for a while, but Instant Switch usurps it.

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On 2020-02-01 at 11:12 AM, Litus42 said:

No matter which mode you use thrown glaives gain no benefit from Condition Overload

This was a weird one to find out, tested just now in sim (AI on).

Level 155 Runner, Embolist (status spray; Corrosive and Blast), Kestral w/ Condition Overload:

  • No status: 201 damage
  • With status (both corrosive and blast): 201 damage

This was really weird to find, I'll put up a post in bugs as well.

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Condition Overload broke at the same time as Crits on throw. There's been some conjecture that it's to do with the way dynamic damage multipliers are calculated, but no matter what the cause it was a big nerf to a rather niche weapon. I'd love to at least get a dev response stating "looking into it" after all these months.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2020-03-01 at 3:20 PM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Well now self damage is going away, assuming they don't forget about Glaives this is at least a start.

I really wouldn't put self damage in the top five problems with glaives. Condition Overload, heavy attacks interacting with mods/criticals, the disconnect between dual wield and regular melee, inability to block/throw in various situations, and glaive-only mods that do little (or nothing!) are all higher on the list.

I'm just hoping they have glaives on their radar at all, but somehow I doubt it.

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I honestly didn't even realize they reduced the AOE damage, as the detonation didn't do any damage anyway.

I'm really disappointed about the lack of updates from DE, but at least guaranteed slash procs got a bit of a boost, so that's something...

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