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Rhino Should Replace Loki As A Starter


Grilleds
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Alright Loki fans, before you get the torches and pitchforks out, hear me out first.

Before Mag replaced Volt as a starter, the starting Warframes were a balanced choice (Excalibur), a utility focused choice (Loki), and... Volt, who was probably changed with Mag since he felt a little out of place as a starter, and because DE felt we needed a starter without a Y chromosome.

Now that Mag is a starter, and has gone through some reworks, we have a balanced choice (Excalibur), a utility focused choice (Loki), and a proper caster (Mag). So everything seems right? I'd say otherwise for a number of reasons:

Firstly, while it looks like we got the standard Warrior/Mage/Thief choice at start here that is offered in so many other games. It doesn't really work so well in Warframe since technically every Warframe is kind of all 3 categories at once anyway. So the diversity should probably take a different path. I propose Balanced (Excalibur), Tank (Rhino), and Caster (Mag), because a tank archetype stands out more in this game than a utility one, especially to a new player, and is one of the key archetypes that people look for when first trying a new game.

Secondly, Loki simply doesn't shine early in the game like the other two starters do. I'm not arguing that Loki is weak, in fact I think he is probably one of the best end-game frames, which is part of the problem since it takes until a player has already gotten far enough to get a new frame to really appreciate what Loki can do. A new player who picks Loki, will probably feel weak since they can't clear whole rooms of mooks like Mag can with Pull, or quickly deal with small amounts of tougher enemies like Exalibur can with Slash Dash and Radial Javelin. Its not until those two frames have a bit more trouble doing those things, that Loki's ability to disarm whole rooms or not have to worry about being targeted due to Invisibility start seeming like comparable abilities in terms of usefulness.

Lastly, I think Mag, Excalibur and Rhino are all simply easier to learn than Loki is. I'm aware that Loki's description already says as much, but I don't think we should even be offering an advanced choice as a starter for reasons I would have thought would be obvious. A new player wants to learn the game. So fitting into an obvious archetype would help out tremendously. Rhino uses Iron Skin and draws fire away from squishier teammates, Mag kills from a distance with Pull, and Excalibur can do a little of everything.

I think an obvious counter argument would be that Rhino shouldn't be a starter frame since his parts drop from the first boss you fight that can drop Warframe part blueprints and as such he should be the first frame a newbie farms for. My response to that is to point out that you can't even craft any frame at all until you can farm Neural Sensors and Control Modules anyway. So you have to have either beaten Earth and Jupiter to get to Europa, or have been carried to those planets by someone who already has them unlocked. Meaning Trinity and Volt are both equally viable as being one of the first frames you can replace your starter with.

Another counter argument would be to point out that Loki is one of the poster boy's of Warframe, and my response to that is to point out that Rhino was also in the first Warframe trailer, along with all the other current starter frames.

What does the rest of the forum think?

tl;dr Rhino is easier to learn than Loki, fits a more obvious archetype, and Loki doesn't shine till long after a new player has the means to get a new frame anyway.

Edit:

Some people made some good arguments for why Ash makes more sense than Rhino as a replacement. So now I'm inclined to agree. Loki is considered an advanced frame, and I don't think an advanced frame should even be offered to new players, while Ash is also a stealth based frame with abilities that are still quite easy for a new player to make use of.

Edited by Grilleds
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I disagree. Few reasons.

 

1. It would be kind of horrible to have a bunch of newbie Rhinos running around and playing really horribly with a Skana

2. Don't give new players and invincibility power and a tank frame, it won't teach them to play any better

    - Loki does teach new players to play more tactically

3. Rhino's a frame that a lot of people upgrade to from Excalibur. They're too similar to have in the same startup line (Excalibur to Rhino, Loki to Ash)

 

There's more, might edit later.

Edited by NukaKV
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Yeah let's hand a completely new player one of the best frames right off the bat

 

No.

He's offered from the lowest level boss that drops Warframe parts, while Excalibur is offered from the highest level boss that drops Warframe parts. Clearly power and difficulty in acquisition aren't related.
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I think I agree. I picked Loki right away and talked so much smack about him until I was like 400 hours in, now he's what I'm maining...

Rhino was the first frame I went after, too.
 

 

Since Rhino is the lowest tier Frame he should be moved to be a starter

 

wut

Edited by VegetableBasket
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I disagree. Few reasons.

 

1. It would be kind of horrible to have a bunch of newbie Rhinos running around and playing really horribly with a Skana

We already have a bunch (or atleast half of the comunity) being newbie rhinos.

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I think I agree. I picked Loki right away and talked so much smack about him until I was like 400 hours in, now he's what I'm maining...

Rhino was the first frame I went after, too.

 

 
 

wut

Switched with loki as starter

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The main reason I disagree is because you pretty much dont learn anything beyond "tanking"

Even if he is on a lower tier to get, it still is all based on RNG if you get the parts or not so you still gotta work for it

 

yes loki is hard on players in the beginning but you start to learn tricks while you go through. These can save your life and others when applied to other frames. (you cant clear a room so you dont rely on that to get the job done)

 

and what about Mag? I would say that she is "easy mod" due to her tank-like shields. Excalibur would be "medium" and Loki is "hard" mode

Rhino is pretty much "easier" mode

 

but at the same time I can see still how lower players would struggle due to loki's abilities not shining until later on :/

 

toughy

Edited by Anatolius
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Reasons? Arguments? Even relevant reaction images?

Because giving everyone a frame that can just press 2 and wreck shop is not something that is really smart.

 

We have easy mode Excalibur, intermediate mode MAG, and expert mode Loki.

 

It's perfect as is.

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but at the same time I can see still how lower players would struggle due to loki's abilities not shining until later on :/

 

toughy

That's the main issue I have though. I have a friend of mine who picked Loki, complained about how his abilities don't seem very useful, and promptly quit before getting his second frame. Excalibur and Mag are both much more straightforward in their abilities, which is always a plus for starting players.

Because giving everyone a frame that can just press 2 and wreck shop is not something that is really smart.

 

 

 

We have easy mode Excalibur, intermediate mode MAG, and expert mode Loki.

 

 

 

It's perfect as is.

You should probably give Mag another try if you think she is harder than Excalibur

Press 1 2-3 times and you kill a whole room even on Ceres

Starter frames aren't difficulty levels

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That's the main issue I have though. I have a friend of mine who picked Loki, complained about how his abilities don't seem very useful, and promptly quit before getting his second frame. Excalibur and Mag are both much more straightforward in their abilities, which is always a plus for starting players.

You should probably give Mag another try if you think she is harder than Excalibur

Press 1 2-3 times and you kill a whole room even on Ceres

Starter frames aren't difficulty levels

 

You should probably remember that MAG was never that nuke friendly.

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You should probably remember that MAG was never that nuke friendly.

I'd think that how she is now is a bit more relevant than how she used to be

Rhino used to be pretty bad too after all

OP, please tell me how this idea crossed your mind, it's just so bad.

If only there was some sort of opening post that explained in-depth what you are asking.... Oh wait...

Abridged version is that Loki right now is clearly the worst starting choice. Yes, he is great after you:

1.Know the game very well

2.Have Continuity, Streamline, Constitution and Energy Siphon

3.Are facing higher level content

However I don't think most newbies meet those requirements.

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haha heck why not just have Rhino and Nova as Starter Frames, one can press 2 and wreak havok, the other can press 4 and wreak havok.  

 

Excellent choices for starter Frames.

I think its a safe bet that eventually all the frames will receive some re-balances. Besides, Mag can press 1 and wreak havok.
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I think more frames need an r2 restriction, but there should be at least 4 or 5 frames as starters, with Volt and trinity as the addition(s). A healer for a start would be great for a newbie, and if they are going to Venus for Rhino they'll do well with Volt.

Also, I think the tutorial should be redone in that frame choices are made first, and then the now frame specific tutorial is played through with that frame. Any frames acquired afterwards can be learned via tutorial by finding the tutorial in the lore section.

Edited by WondahBoah
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Rhino's often the first new frame that players can/will get from farming bosses; specifically the Jackal on Venus. He's the first step up that new players earn.

 

By the time they get Rhino, they've managed to achieve some level of competence with their first frame. Having a fair idea about how the game works, they can start using a new frame with a fairly unique play-style.

 

The starting frames are fine as they are, the only change I might be persuaded to support would be the addition of a fourth frame to choose to start with now that the number of frames is in excess of 15... maybe add Volt back in like in the closed beta.

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"A tank archetype stands out more than a utility one"

Erm no, the tank is just easier to use and requires no thought process; you just sponge bullets until you've killed all of the opposition with your primary weapon.

 

Besides that, you're proposing that instead of having the standard 3 archetypes (Warrior/Mage/Thief), we should have a Warrior/Mage/Tank selection instead. You said that the reasoning behind that is that "So many games offer this archetype", which is true, yet there are many games that offer the Warrior/Mage/Tank archetypes as well.  Switching out something because its generic for something else that is also generic and claiming that its unique makes no sense. 

 

Aside from that, why fix something that isn't broken? The 3 Warframes are a fine choice, and I wouldn't have it any other way... well, gender swaps, maybe, but still.

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"A tank archetype stands out more than a utility one"

Erm no, the tank is just easier to use and requires no thought process; you just sponge bullets until you've killed all of the opposition with your primary weapon.

 

Besides that, you're proposing that instead of having the standard 3 archetypes (Warrior/Mage/Thief), we should have a Warrior/Mage/Tank selection instead. You said that the reasoning behind that is that "So many games offer this archetype", which is true, yet there are many games that offer the Warrior/Mage/Tank archetypes as well.  Switching out something because its generic for something else that is also generic and claiming that its unique makes no sense. 

 

Aside from that, why fix something that isn't broken? The 3 Warframes are a fine choice, and I wouldn't have it any other way... well, gender swaps, maybe, but still.

You misunderstand my argument. I was saying that Warrior/Mage/Thief doesn't work as well for Warframe as it does for other games because every Warframe is already kind of all 3 categories already.

I proposed switching Loki out for Rhino because I feel that a tank functionally stands out more in their role in this game than a thief type frame (Loki), especially since stealth still hasn't been fixed. Its very easy for a newbie to see the list of Warframes, and tell "OK, this one draws aggro, this one kills stuff at a distance, and this one gets close and wrecks stuff", while Loki in his current state is a little misleading in his role for a newcomer, and on top of that he doesn't really shine in this game until the later levels anyway.

If stealth gets fixed before release, I'll eat my words and retract this argument.

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loki being harder to learn is the entire point

it's like a difficulty setting

he is even described as designed for advanced players

Too bad the game's beginning is already the toughest challenge, and Loki is one of the most odd frames out there, with no damage dealing ult, or any damaging ability whatsoever.

 

Mixed with low shields and a reliable use of skills, which some players possibly won't even know how to mod in, I'd say another frame is best.

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