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[DE]Rebecca

Kuva Lich 1.1: Feedback Megathread

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Posted (edited)

The picture below sums up in a nutshell while I'm done with liches...at least for now. It took somewhere around 40 Cassini runs to get my second Shildeg, (The first was 26% elemental, the new one is 25%), played solo grinding the murmurs (of course the first mod found through murmurs turned out to the the last one in the order) and again, soloed the lich. All in all the process took around 6 or 7 hours. Then I did the valence fusion. See below. Let me do the math for you, that's a 2.7% increase for that 4-5 hours worth of gameplay. And since my last 5 Kuva weapons have all been 25% or 26%, the amount of time to get the weapon to 60%, assuming my luck holds true, is around 60-70 hours. That's unacceptable. Now multiply that times the number of Kuva weapons and it goes from unacceptable to laughable.

Please, do better. You can't seriously expect anyone to put that kind of time into leveling weapons.

hahaha_no.jpg?raw=1

 

 

Edited by 3rdpig
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Looking at my Steam achievements: I created my first Lich on Oct 31, and I killed my first Lich on March 5. It really only took me a couple weeks of actual time playing the game, which is still absurd for a single enemy. But the frustration of dealing with the Lich is also why I completely stopped playing the game for almost four months, so it still counts as part of it. Plus, I am fairly certain that I only spent about 15 minutes total actually directly engaging with the Lich himself during all that time. The rest of the time was spent doing what may as well have been completely unrelated activities. Not a good design for an ever present nemesis.

So, why did it take me so long to kill a single Lich? Because I wasn't lucky enough. Because the game literally wouldn't let me. Didn't matter how much I wanted to, didn't matter how powerful my gear was, and it certainly didn't matter how skilled I am at the game, I just plain couldn't. It was only a few days before I got to the point that I knew I couldn't kill him, because I knew didn't have the third requiem mod I needed. So I spent the next week or so farming relics and opening them, and couldn't find what I needed. I couldn't even ignore him and play other parts of the game, either, because he had taken over like half the starchart and kept stealing all my stuff. Frustration on top of frustration on top of frustration... So I finally just quit playing Warframe altogether, and played other games that actually respect my time.

This is a huge problem this game has in general: No matter how much you want to play, a lot of the time it simply won't let you. Want to fight your Lich? Too bad, you don't have the right mods, so go farm those instead. Want to do Nightwave challenges? Too bad, you already did them all, so wait until next week. Want to play the quest to build a Railjack? Too bad, you only get about 5 minutes of actual gameplay before you have to wait for 6 hours to continue. And you have to do that multiple times. And the wait used to be even worse!

When a game makes me wait before I can have fun with it, I usually don't, and just go play something else instead. Because why would I play a game that is literally telling me not to play it?

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Well I got all the Kuva weapons so far which is fine, I'm also okay with the grind it takes to hunt them. It's warframe, grind is and always was part of the game 😉 however since I got all the kuva weapons now I'm looking to get better rolls on those weapons which I like (or stuff to upgrade). Guess meanwhile I killed somewhere between 50 and 100 larvelings which I did not pick up. To be honest: that's really exhausting and no fun at all since there's is 0 progression and the mission is boring af since low level anyway.

Suggestion: Max. 3 Offerings out of 20 larvelings for 1 weapon. So I kill 3 larvelings, 3 times a bramma offer - next 17 larvelings won't have bramma. This shall be reset if I take a lich.
There is more than enough RNG on the weapon itself - no need to get bored out farming larvelings 😉

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After forma maxing a Kuva Lich weapon I'd like to take it to Palladino to guild and rename it.

I'd like to see Sugatra attachments for Kuva Lich weapons. (Placed near the end of the weapon's barrel.)

 

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Okay, so after discovering/remembering I can craft Spectres, I decided to take an honest crack at Kuva Lich Hell.

I still hate the system with every fiber of my being and would still pay real money to be rid of it... but I think I’m getting the hang of it. Sort of.

At this point, farming murmurs is a royal pain in the tucchus. But whatever, it’s a smidge more bearable with Spectres for Solo players like myself.

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Out of curiosity, and because I don't have much else to do in this game, I tried another Lich. This time it only took about 5 hours to take her down. This was because I already had a full collection of all 8 Requiem Mods, so it didn't require any extra farming. But it still took that long, because I had to try every single mod before I found the first one. And it was the last Murmur I got, too. So this Lich consisted entirely of me doing nothing but her missions over and over again killing Thralls and waiting for her to spawn. Not nearly as bad as the last time, but still way more irritating than it should have been.

Its obvious now that farming a full set of Requiem Mods before you create a Lich is the way to go, because trying to do it while they are around stealing your stuff really sucks.  But having to make all your preparations to kill a boss before that boss even exists is pretty dumb, and shows just how non-interactive they really are. You spend so much time doing anything but fighting the Lich themselves. Which is too bad, because once the Lich gets fully leveled up and you have all your mods set, it can actually be a pretty fun fight. But having to roll so many dice, and wait so long to get to that point isn't worth it.

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Posted (edited)

When spawning Larvalings:

if a player does not kill the Larvaling

then proportionally decrease the chance of that Larvaling's weapon to spawn for the next Larvaling by amount P

such that all other weapons' chance to spawn is increased by P/(N - 1) where N is the number of weapons.

i.e. the chance of all other weapons goes up by the difference P evenly divided amongst the other weapons.

This way, it is faster to spawn the Larvaling with the weapon you want.

Edited by Gwyndolin-chan
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Hey DE, mind fixing liches grabbing you from 10 meters away after you dodge their grab?

 

MIND FIXING THAT?

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Killed a Third Lich. This time it went super fast, because I gut super lucky and guessed the first two mods on the third attempt. This gave me almost enough murmurs to reveal the third one, so one mission later I knew them all. I managed to kill him at Rank 4.

As I said before, this is the main problem with the Requiem mods themselves: Everything about them is purely luck based. There is no skill involved at all. You roll the dice to get the relics, you roll the dice to get the mods from the relics, then you roll the dice to guess what mods you need to kill the Lich. This is why one Lich might take weeks to kill, while another only lives for an hour. Feels more like a casino than a boss fight.

I feel like there should be more to the whole process of figuring out what mods to use. For one thing, each mod has some text on it that isn't used for anything. Maybe, instead of just revealing the three mods one by one, the Murmurs should slowly reveal lines from a poem, and that would give you clues that tie into the text on the mods. You could slowly piece together what mods you need over time, instead of just waiting until you are told the answer. Plus, each poem could give you some insight into the Lich's past for a Lore bonus.

I also think that the Requiem Relics should be removed, and the mods should drop straight from the Thralls, because the whole process of getting mods from relics is by far the worst part of the whole system. I have actually somewhat enjoyed these last two Liches because I didn't have to do any of that farming before I could kill them. Also, Riven shards should rarely drop from Thralls, and a Primary Exilus Adapter should always drop from the Lich, because they should drop more loot for how much trouble they are.

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I think it'd be a cool for the devs to pursue the idea of us being able to interact with out converted Liches more, especially outside of missions. (if this already exists please let me know)

I just converted one and aside from getting all my rewards back, i didn't get an after mission call from them indicating they were on my side now.
The entire reason i converted the guy was cause i really liked the personality he had and i'd hoped he would continue to chime in from time to time.

Maybe let us use them as gunners during solo runs of railjack? capping out at 3 liches of our choice (1 for each side gun and one patrolling the ship for infiltrators). Then our ships could be the dedicated location for us to interract with out chosen Liches and we could swap them in and out with other Litches we'd converted.

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You need to just drop the whole Lich thing. It doesn't work, isn't fun and the best thing you could do is figure out a complete exit strategy for this huge mistake.

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Why are the kuva lichs not tied to higher levels? I started playing this game about 2 weeks ago. I just started at the first quest and kept going. So I am still learning about the game. Somehow I spawned a Kuva lich, I don't have the gear to defeat it, not even high enough  to start the relics needed to fight it. Since I cant beat it or abandon the quest for it, I decided to move to other planets and work on leveling my gear to come back to defeat it, but it spread to other planets and now takes pretty much anything I earn. So I cant beat it, cant get the stuff to beat it and cant progress anywhere. Wow, what a game breaker for a new player. I liked warframe because it didn't force me in gameplay and allowed me to progress at a level I was comfortable with. Until the litch. who's bright Idea was this? So I went to the forums, Some like it, most don't. So why is it forced on players? I am sure I wouldn't mind if I had been playing 5 to 7 years and had all the gear. But for a new player that was looking forward to a lot of fun gameplay in warframe, It has come to an end. Thanks for a fun 2 weeks, Back to ESO and Destiny 2.

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Rolling endless larva to try and get a weapon you want really sucks.  There NEEDS to be a way to go after the weapon you want after just one 1-3 larva.

Murmur nodes should not include spy or interception.  Captures should be alot longer.   Defense/survival/disrupt should be endless.  Each "Round" should spawn a full compliment of thralls.  

The amount of murmurs needed to unlock mods should be lowered just a little bit (3rd step should match first two).  I usually run into my lich before I even fill up my first murmur so even before I know one of the mods he is already Level 2.  

Do Lich's grant murmr if you beat them down 3 times and make them run away??  If you made aggression NOT drop between levels that could actually help make the process better if they also granted murmurs for being ran off.  

------------

Kuva weapon bonus % still isnt visible enough.  Just add it to all the other stats displayed.  Accuracy, reload, fire rate... BONUS DAMAGE:  xx% element

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Please please please add some randomness to the voice lines for Liches. Personality quirks are a good start but it still seems like I've faced only two liches: one male, one female. After 55-60 liches I can recite the lines in my sleep (and probably do!). Anything that makes them more distinct would be extremely appreciated.

Maybe have a large bank of generic voice lines and have each lich choose a subset of them randomly at spawn?

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As a vet who reinstalled just to try Liches, I am here simply to say that I am enjoying the game loop very much.

My only suggestion is that you guys need to keep seeding new rewards, perhaps to coincide with new Nightwave seasons. Please don't abandon the game mode, as it's a really good endgame loop.

Looking forward to the Corpus version.

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On 2020-03-15 at 7:40 AM, (XB1)USMC03CURT said:

Why are the kuva lichs not tied to higher levels? I started playing this game about 2 weeks ago. I just started at the first quest and kept going. So I am still learning about the game. Somehow I spawned a Kuva lich, I don't have the gear to defeat it, not even high enough  to start the relics needed to fight it. Since I cant beat it or abandon the quest for it, I decided to move to other planets and work on leveling my gear to come back to defeat it, but it spread to other planets and now takes pretty much anything I earn. So I cant beat it, cant get the stuff to beat it and cant progress anywhere. Wow, what a game breaker for a new player. I liked warframe because it didn't force me in gameplay and allowed me to progress at a level I was comfortable with. Until the litch. who's bright Idea was this? So I went to the forums, Some like it, most don't. So why is it forced on players? I am sure I wouldn't mind if I had been playing 5 to 7 years and had all the gear. But for a new player that was looking forward to a lot of fun gameplay in warframe, It has come to an end. Thanks for a fun 2 weeks, Back to ESO and Destiny 2.

You don't need to do the lich missions at all. When you click on a node in a planet your lich has influence on, it gives you two options: the lich mission and the normal variant of the mission. Just ignore the lich and do the normal mission. This should completely fix your issue.  

Also kuva liches can only spawn for players who have already completed the War Within quest. So I assume you're not THAT early in the Starchart. You should have access to all the planets and nodes you need to farm better mods and gear in case you're undergeared. You seem to be under the impression that you just need to keep unlocking new planets to progress and get stronger, but more often than not you just need to put catalysts, reactor and forma on your better gear and maybe acquire better mods to improve your builds. 

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4 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

You don't need to do the lich missions at all. When you click on a node in a planet your lich has influence on, it gives you two options: the lich mission and the normal variant of the mission. Just ignore the lich and do the normal mission. This should completely fix your issue.  

Also kuva liches can only spawn for players who have already completed the War Within quest. So I assume you're not THAT early in the Starchart. You should have access to all the planets and nodes you need to farm better mods and gear in case you're undergeared. You seem to be under the impression that you just need to keep unlocking new planets to progress and get stronger, but more often than not you just need to put catalysts, reactor and forma on your better gear and maybe acquire better mods to improve your builds. 

Yes, I completed the war within. Didn't know what a Kuva lich was or that they spawned or what activated them until after it was here and then I had to go to the forums to figure it out. Tried ignoring it and it spread to other planets, tried to farm better gear, but it takes all my rewards. In fact, thats what made me look it up, every mission I ran on any planet my rewards came back stolen. Read I need the items from relics to defeat it but I cant get them because it tells me I am to low a level to run the relics. So cant beat it, cant ignore it, cant dismiss it, and cant get better gear to take it on because it takes everything.  If I would have known then what I know now, I probably could have avoided it. I appreciate the input and advice but my star system is overrun by it now and I play games to relax, not for aggravation, so I just uninstalled warframe. I ran destiny 2 raids with a bunch that said they used to play warframe, so thought I would try it. Gave it the 2 weeks and now see why they don't play it anymore. And I am not complaining about endgame content, or grinding, don't mind that at all. And as I said, I am sure if I was a vet and had 5 to 7 years in with all the gear, it would be no problem. But for a MR7 that was just following quest in the codex and figuring things out as I went along, this broke the game for me. Would have been better if it was tied to say a MR 20 or if it was explained better so that just the people that wanted the weapons could do it and it didn't affect everyone else. But up until the Lich, it seemed like a fun game. Would have stayed if there was an option to bypass it till I chose to deal with it. But alas that is not an option.

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On 2020-03-14 at 5:20 PM, zer0maz said:

You need to just drop the whole Lich thing. It doesn't work, isn't fun and the best thing you could do is figure out a complete exit strategy for this huge mistake.

I disagree with this user. I love it. It's one of my favorite endgame activities.

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Posted (edited)

I just want to have to confirm larva kill.I've wasted several days of farming killing the larvaling out of the habit I gained from killing the thralls

Edited by (PS4)blutarchmann543
Everything I posted before was widely said by other posts

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Posted (edited)

I guess I have just gotten lucky the past couple of days.  I have gotten different weapons each time but they were all ones that I wanted so I could do fusions and I got them from my first larva run (not after hours of rerolling weapons I dont want). 

My luck probably wont hold but when things are going like this the Lich system feels amazing and fun.  Im grouping with randoms to farm murmurs.  I am super excited for Pablo to get that new end of mission UI up and running so I can admire my warframe and everyone elses!!  

However at some point my luck will turn and it will be back to rolling endless larva and never getting the weapons I want.  When that happens the Lich system is at its worst and something demoralizing.  I really hope you guys at DE come up with a way for us to just choose the weapon that is on a kuva lich.  You think people will max out the weapons they want and then never touch the Lich system again...................  That is true to some extent, the amount of time it takes the average person would vary alot,  Of course No-Lifers are going to consume it all super fast and then complain that they are bored.

I think the Lich system has a very under utilized 2nd draw.  The kuva rewards.  These need to be jacked way up.  3k per larva.  10k for failed parazon stabs.  25k for taking out a lich.   Those numbers would keep people engaged in the process forever*. 

I am just getting into rivens(cuz I can get them without doing sorties now).  I have 0'ed out my Kuva.  I dont see ways to build it up fast either.  Kuva survival is an ok mode but the amount of kuva you get is a joke unless you want to grind for hours on end.  Kuva fortress disruptions I have only done a few times but nothing needle moving there either.  I just ignore rolling rivens for long periods of time while the kuva trickles in mostly from Lich system.  But I would like to be rolling TONS of rivens.  There is no need for me to actively go after Rivens since I know I can not roll them.  

I think a better flow of kuva would = a higher demand on plat = you $$

------------- 

But those are my points.   Lich system is Bi-polar with high-highs and low-lows(weapon farming).   Do something to even it out.   And think about making it rain kuva to keep interest high.  

Cant wait for the corpus Lich system to drop.   

ps: On my 28th Lich and still no ephemera =(

Edited by (PS4)AbBaNdOn_

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I suggest making it easier to actually get the requiems, because I've burnt hundreds of void traces and lots of relics, and only have two. 

Maybe this can be done by making the relics always offer a requiem mod, and allow the player to pick between that or something else.

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Please allow us to choose which element we want to keep when doing the Valence Fusion. It's really dumb that it automatically picks whatever element is on the new weapon.

Please allow us to make progress with liches while also doing other missions, like relic and kuva missions. This grind is ridiculous, and it would help if we were able to make progress with 2 things at once. It doesn't even make sense from a conceptual view that the liches control planets, but the liches and the thralls don't show up for kuva and relic missions on those planets.

Please make it so our liches always appear once we have all of the requiems revealed. It is so tedious and aggravating to do lich missions where taking out the thralls no longer has any meaning.

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I'm almost at my 10th Lich and the first ephemera I got was the very first one I hunted, is the drop chance supposed to be so low?

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Hopefully this gains traction:

A surefire way to revolutionize Lich combat:

(Re)Introduce old-school manics with their “pounce and gut” finishers as the:

KUVA MANIC-LICH.

💀

Current liches pull off two-part finisher animations, so that is no longer a cogent objection.

You could easily make this an opt-in challenge by making sure the Larvling is a manic.  Those that want to accept this challenge will know from the start!

And then those of us who want some fast-paced harrowing Lich combat get it.

Thoughts?

 

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