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Kuva Lich 1.1: Feedback Megathread


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This update was great in so many ways. Earlier today I hunted 2 Kuva Liches, one to valence fusion my toxin kuva quartakk and one to get a rad kuva karak. No ephemera. This was by far my most productive day with Liches and in some regard that's what concerns me.

My biggest criticism of Kuva Liches is how absent they are. Spawns are terrible and fights last such a short amount of time until Rank 5. This isn't longevity of the content it's longevity of the waiting to experience it or just... something, anything to happen. Nothing in this update addressed that. The requiem system has its mild criticisms from me but frankly the problem with this system based around guessing how to kill your Lich is that far more often than not: you don't even get to guess.

I understand the line of thinking that this update combined with increased spawns could make kuva weapons/ephemeras too easy to get, you've been doing nothing but rolling back on the insane RNG with this content. But if you're willing to allow us to fight Liches consistently, make them a present part of the experience, go ahead and add a 4th requiem bar to their health. But ONLY if their spawns are increased significantly, this could reduce the time drain while making it more challenging and giving us the experience many of us are asking for. Just a thought.

Please pass my compliments on to the rest of the team, this was a good update.

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Kuva larva need a hold-action-to-stab prompt, not a one-tap-and-that's-it prompt. This was already added for refinement in Railjack, it already exists on the vanquish/ convert choice for liches themselves. There also needs to be a way to get rid of unwanted liches, period.

Due to being so mind-numb from grinding larva for the new weapons, I didn't even realize I stabbed the unwanted larva until the lich popped up on the ship. Over an hour of running Cassini, just to get stuck with a grind-fest to get rid of something I don't need, want or have any use for. Four hours to get rid of a lich that I made accidentally due to a ridiculous murmur grind which has never actually been reduced. Everything in my previous post in this thread about the murmur grind driven home unequivocally.

A day wasted for nothing. I am never engaging with this system again, regardless of what changes come down the line or what new weapons get added. The only reason I'm even posting this is on the off chance that it prevents someone else from having to put up with this nonsense in the future.

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All of the changes made to the lich system in this patch were good changes, but the core problems of the system are still there.  To be perfectly upfront, I wasn't a fan of this system from the onset, and this patch didn't change my mind about the system.  Without more major changes, I probably won't ever take on another lich.  For me, fighting liches isn't fun and the rewards aren't worth it.

1. WAY TOO MUCH GRIND - I can't emphasize this one enough.  How often do players kill/convert a lich that isn't rank 5?  I bet it's not very often.  The murmur grind needs a pretty hefty reduction.  It takes hours to go through enough thralls to learn your needed requiems, unless you're exceedingly lucky and just happen to correctly guess the requiems you need.  Either thralls need to give more murmur progress or requiems need to require fewer thrall kills to gain.  

2. Too much bullet sponge.  I killed a rank 5 lich today with a plague kripath polearm modded for "endgame".  I used said polearm because my lich just so happened to be immune to slash damage, which meant most of the heavy hitters in my arsenal were worthless.  Each armor bar took forever to shave off.  There was no difficulty to it because I was invisible, so he couldn't fight back except for the occasional attempt to body slam me that usually missed because I stayed off to one side of him.  Either way, the fight was not fun; it was tedious.  One of the things I love about Warframe is that when I hit a normal enemy with a sword, he reacts realistically - as in he dies immediately, and usually falls apart.  I don't want Warframe to be like most MMOs where you have to whack things with weapons endlessly to kill them.  That's boring and unrealistic.  Please don't go that route - keep the combat fast-paced.

3. Kuva Weapons generally aren't powerful enough to justify having to deal with lvl 100+ mobs at rank 5.  Why should we bust our rears for a bunch of weapons that aren't going to outperform stuff we already have or stuff we can get far more easily with a lot less RNG?  Warframe has always had a history of poor rewards for the relative difficulty of content, but this is even worse than normal.

4. Get rid of Requiem charges - these should be infinite use once acquired.

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I made a post about this in the main patch thread already. Sorry I didn't know this thread existed at the time.

Kuva Lich weapons are rolling variable damage in all values; IPS and elemental. I don't think this is intended but hardly anyone else seems to notice it or care. I have no explanation for it. I think it's a bug. This was not fixed in the latest update related to the Kuva Liches, either.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1154338-kuva-weapons-still-rolling-variable-ips-stats/

 

Edited by ArcKnight9202
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Please, please, PLEASE reduce or remove rad procs from Toxin Lich or Lich wielding a Nukor. It's a great nuisance for whole team and possible oneshots to objectives you barely have any control of.

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I would like to give my perspective because I think it's a different angle than most of the people posting; I did not try liches before this update. I just got my first lich today and almost have all the murmurs unlocked for him. So this is a fresh perspective. Also, I have been playing avidly for over three months, unlike many who have been playing this game for years. I haven't done homework on the history of this game, so I may not have the understanding of why things are how they are and where your company came from and how the game experience and the company grew, which is both good and bad for feedback purposes. Please understand anything I say is because I love this game and respect the people involved in making it what it is.

So, for nuts and bolts feedback...

What I do like:

Higher level content on regular old missions. Finally, there is a bit of a challenge sometimes without bizarre modifiers from sorties or nightmare.

I don't know how much variety of lich personalities you have, but the one I have encountered is at least amusing.

The lich actually packs a mean punch and actively comes after you and tries to kill you. Many bosses and mini bosses in this game seem to be designed to just be difficult (read: annoying and obnoxious) to kill rather than designed to be a threat. A lich can actually be a threat and a fight. This is great.

What I don't like:

Thrall grind is a grind. Eximus units have more character and are more of a threat than your lich's thralls. I see that as a problem. As of now, I have plenty of weapons that can wipe out high level enemies in two seconds flat. I don't need these kuva weapons. I did want them until I experienced the monotonous grind to get them. This will likely be the first and last lich I get. Neither the rewards or the gaming experience is worth it.

I would love to see the starchart mission nodes that are under lich control to tie in the story of the lich. Capture the thrall to interrogate them for murmurs. Do a mobile defense to hack the system to get more murmurs by finding out more about how the lich was created to learn its weaknesses. Sabotage the chamber they use to rejuvenate themselves or where they are created in the first place. Intercept messages for murmurs or to learn the lich's plans, perhaps opening up generic quests you can do to make a story out of it instead of a random mission grind. Similar to how you give sorties a bit of a backstory, do the same for liches (only better with more depth) and generate a series of missions to learn their murmurs, thwart their plans and ultimately defeat them. After all, you're not hitting that node to do an exterminate. You're doing it to find thralls because you need murmurs. Embrace that and get some cohesion back in this game. Make the thralls/murmurs the point of going to the node in the first place.

What the hell is a thrall? How are they made? What the hell is a murmur? What the hell is a parazon and why do you need it to vanquish a lich? Give us some depth so that we can get more emotionally invested and actually care about playing the game. Give us a story to go through instead of a random carrot at the end of a long, long stick. You have this amazing, inspired artwork and design but many aspects of the game are left, not just unexplained, but seemingly contradictory or at least arbitrary (even to the point of naming some of the end game content arbitrations lol)

Thralls; less of them, but more intense when you encounter them (and more murmurs when you do). Make the thralls mini bosses; an eximus on steroids. Better yet, Eximus type of strength but instead of random elemental buffs, give them the movement ability of the lich and at least one of their offensive abilities randomly, or all of their abilities but weaker, or something like that. The thrall has been imbued with their power; make that mean something besides teleporting and getting stuck in a locked room tenno can't access.

Lich, I would prefer a darker tone to it. Make it serious. Help us buy into the intensity of the adversary. Less dark edge than stalker, but more character than stalker. I think it's neat, the whole jovial angle that mine has, but it doesn't feel like an adversary. He feels like a lovable guy who can't wait for me to beat his ass so we can finally be friends. That's nice in its own way, but it doesn't feel like a nemesis.

The tax; I pay my government a higher tax percentage than what he "steals". It's like the guy who's trying to establish dominance by stealing one of your Bic pens and taunting you with it. It's not even enough to be annoying (which hopefully isn't the goal anyway). I'd recommend something a little more sinister. When I first started playing and Vor put the Ascaris or whatever on our frames, it made it feel like there was some threat or some urgency. If it was something like, you get back from one of their mission nodes and they pay you a friendly visit (send a message) to let you know that the whole node was just a diversion to get you down there because he found some way to poison your warframe, that's a nemesis. From then on, when you use that frame (or at least on their mission nodes) once in a while you will get a blurred visual effect or perhaps even a stagger and your lich pops up to mock you. I mean... this is just something I pulled from one of the few orifices on my body; I'll give you a guess which one, but I hope you get the point here. Nemesis, adversary, sinister, threat. Get us excited about defeating them, not making it easy to just ignore, but also not annoying us into doing it.

Acting cute, taking my pen and making me kill bunches and bunches of the same old guys but now they're outlined in blue and now I do a "super cool" flip when I kill them is not at all exciting. It's not even about the rewards; playing the game should be the reward, and the gear is icing. Like many things in this game, the concept is amazing but the execution is uninspired. I understand; it's a huge labor of love to really sink the time and imagination into really making something brilliant. But you're paying the programmers either way. And I'm sure that is a huge restriction as well; working your way through the already existing code and I'm sure that can be quite crippling of any really innovative ideas as well.

Long rant and there's plenty more where that came from. I would just love to see this game be the masterpiece it could be and truly deserves to be.

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One of the tedious process in the Kuva Lich hunting. Getting them to spawn to try your requiem order. Right now, Liches can only spawn on Territories their own and multiple can spawn if they share the same territory. Why tedious? It’s because if you do join a murmur farming group most of the time your lich can’t spawn because they don’t share the same territory as the host’s lich and you can’t anger yours if you kill thralls on other’s territory that your lich don’t share. So once you reveal all the known requiems you have to spend around 30-45 minutes hunting thralls in your lich’s territory to anger your lich and finding the right requiem order assuming you need 5 Requiem tries to find the order.

What can we do about this? Allow your lich to come into other lich’s territory that they don’t share and the lich can be angered if you kill his thralls on that territory. This also reduce the murmur grind substantially because you can get the bonus 10 murmur progress per failed stab more frequently and encourages Squad play on lich hunting

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Okay... So... basically this has become the infusion system of destiny where you have to go in and find a more powerful piece of sh err equipment to level up your weapon's power..........

You know. The fact that Bungle used that system and refuses to stop using that system does not make it popular. 

If you're going to do it here fine. But. My request is that you do not try to apply this to any other type of weapon. Cause it will get real old, real fast.

I get my weapon. Great. It has crap percentages. I now get to spend six months grinding for slightly better versions of it to upgrade to max. Spending hours and hours every week just dedicated to this..................................... Do you not get that far from stretching "content" that's a magnificent way to make people hate your game? Hate the whole process?

Because okay. Fine. You finally max off your weapon............... Now what. What are you going to use it for now that you've become dissociated from the rest of the game. You have your perfect max stat weapon......................... You stand atop the peak of a mountain, no more to climb.... all there is  is to walk back down.

You really were better off just setting your weapons to the specific stats you wanted them to have and letting people earn their weapon and walk away. It's nice that you've provided a little more control, but this system is still going to get really, really old, really, really fast. Is this for your long term players who have mastered every weapon anyway and have nothing else to do?.............. This isn't going to entertain them long either.

If you didn't want to just give a "completed" weapon, you could have linked this to the focus system and let people spend unused focus to enhance their weapon. That atleast would mean focus continues to have value after the schools are maxed. 

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7 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Imagine each of those was a 3 hour lich though.

Oh absolutely. I did about 35 liches before these changes. I’m not complaining at all.

i complain about other stuff!

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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P.S. to previous post

I propose a change that truly brings this into line with the theme "Fusion", but which I don't know how difficult it would be to implement. In gameplay terms the goal is either weapon could be the donor and still maintain your spent formas, lenses, etc.; the specific way I suggest below just sounds really cool and fits the theme.

The fusion process creates a choice of 2 new weapons, with names generated from the originals. e.g.

Lich1_FirstName Lich1_LastName Kuva Bramma (45% cold) [formas, etc]   +   Lich2_FirstName Lich2_LastName Kuva Bramma (25% radiation) [brand new]

= Lich1_FirstName Lich2_LastName (49.5% radiation) [formas, etc]   or   Lich2_FirstName Lich1_LastName (49.5% cold) [formas, etc]

 

 

Edited by rstripn
removed self-quote was unnecessary
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2 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Okay... So... basically this has become the infusion system of destiny where you have to go in and find a more powerful piece of sh err equipment to level up your weapon's power..........

You know. The fact that Bungle used that system and refuses to stop using that system does not make it popular. 

If you're going to do it here fine. But. My request is that you do not try to apply this to any other type of weapon. Cause it will get real old, real fast.

I get my weapon. Great. It has crap percentages. I now get to spend six months grinding for slightly better versions of it to upgrade to max. Spending hours and hours every week just dedicated to this..................................... Do you not get that far from stretching "content" that's a magnificent way to make people hate your game? Hate the whole process?

Because okay. Fine. You finally max off your weapon............... Now what. What are you going to use it for now that you've become dissociated from the rest of the game. You have your perfect max stat weapon......................... You stand atop the peak of a mountain, no more to climb.... all there is  is to walk back down.

You really were better off just setting your weapons to the specific stats you wanted them to have and letting people earn their weapon and walk away. It's nice that you've provided a little more control, but this system is still going to get really, really old, really, really fast. Is this for your long term players who have mastered every weapon anyway and have nothing else to do?.............. This isn't going to entertain them long either.

If you didn't want to just give a "completed" weapon, you could have linked this to the focus system and let people spend unused focus to enhance their weapon. That atleast would mean focus continues to have value after the schools are maxed. 

You don’t need better versions. Lower percentages also work — the result is just something like 1.1 x Higher Weapon’s Bonus.

You just need another copy of the weapon, regardless of bonus. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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19 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

You don’t need better versions. Lower percentages also work — the result is just something like 1.1 x Higher Weapon’s Bonus.

You just need another copy of the weapon, regardless of bonus. 

Edit: I misunderstood how the bonus% was applied. Apologies. Feel free to disregard this post if you want.

What they mean is that, if you get your weapon with the worst possible roll on the element, and invest all your forma and a catalyst into it, then proceed to farm fodder to level it up, IF you get one that's better than your previous, you must fuse the better one into the worse one for worse gains.

Why?

Because this system eats any and all associated modifications done to the weapon and only moves the elemental percentage. It will steal your catalyst, exilus, and forma.

So, in essence, it's better to farm a high% elemental weapon before even bothering with the system. Seems like a great way to spend your time, doesn't it?

Now, if it kept your forma etc, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. You can just fuse into the better one and keep all your bells and whistles. However, this is not where we are currently.

Edited by ArcKnight9202
Correction
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You do keep the form

31 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

What they mean is that, if you get your weapon with the worst possible roll on the element, and invest all your forma and a catalyst into it, then proceed to farm fodder to level it up, IF you get one that's better than your previous, you must fuse the better one into the worse one for worse gains.

Why?

Because this system eats any and all associated modifications done to the weapon and only moves the elemental percentage. It will steal your catalyst, exilus, and forma.

So, in essence, it's better to farm a high% elemental weapon before even bothering with the system. Seems like a great way to spend your time, doesn't it?

Now, if it kept your forma etc, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. You can just fuse into the better one and keep all your bells and whistles. However, this is not where we are currently.

The system does not eat the modifications and progress unless you execute the operation incorrectly (or you intend to consume your existing formad/potatoed weapon for whatever reason). 

I've already done this on one gun, and as long as you always start with the gun you already have, progress and catalysts and so forth are maintained, and the gun you have ends up with a bonus equal to 1.1 times the highest value in the fusion.

To illustrate: I had a 35% Kuva Kraken with catalyst at rank 30, and I had a 25% unranked Kuva Kraken. I fused the 25 into the 35, and got a 38% (or maybe 37, they round the numbers) Kraken with all my progress and catalyst preserved.

Edit: The biggest problem is that the devs did not put sensible restrictions on the process, like "do not allow destruction of guns with any progress / potatoes / forma in the fusion process." 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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Actually the lich 1.1 is pretty good.

My point is, I just spend More than 1H30 to do cassini back'n'forth finishing by canceling more than 20 missions trying to get the Bramma.

So, I'm pretty sure you understand that doing 20-40+ times in a row a mission to get the desired weapon isnt a relevant gameplay.
Forcing player to go for the fastest mission -> capture
Player becoming tired start to cancel mission when larveling isnt the good one.
RNG being on your favor, that system is completly fine and the kuva in bonus is nice when you dont get the lich you want.
If not. Well I just spend 2h of my life doing nothing relevant for me as a person or as a player while trying to get a weapon wich I still dont have.


I'm curious about some stat, like how many time cassini was done since monday, and how many time it was canceled game.

And please please please
Add a keep x press mecanic to validate a larveling.
we spend hours to down thralls and jump on them to get murmur.
When you are tired, you do exactly the same with larveling.
Result i'm on my 3rd unwanted lich because cancel the game keep the lich validate.

Edited by AnuKaneDai
adding stuff
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I've been mulling on this for a while and i think a modification that the system needs is a way to either specify which weapon a larvling spawns with (as you can with the element), or tip the scales in a particular direction. this would make farming for a particular weapon much more tolerable, as it means fewer attempts to spawn a larvling with the desired weapon are needed. it would also go a way to eliminate the need for lich dismissal, as the player is less likely to end up with an undesirable lich.

i would propose that if a player enters an eligible mission with a kuva weapon equipped, and meets the criteria to spawn a larvling, that larvling should either be guaranteed or have a high chance to spawn with a copy of that weapon of their own. for example, i enter a mission with a kuva brakk equipped - the larvling is guaranteed to have one as its weapon, which i can then use to eventually upgrade/etc my own brakk.

if a player has multiple kuva weapons equipped, then the larvling would have an equal chance to spawn with any of the weapons. eg: i have a kuva brakk and shildeg equipped, the larvling has either a brakk or a shildeg. if i had three kuva weapons equipped, then it would be split between those three. and so on.

this would also ideally apply to ayanga, even though as an archgun (i believe? i do not have one myself yet) it needs to be equipped either in the archwing loadout or via gravimag. this would mean that a player can have up to four kuva weapons equipped (primary, secondary, melee, heavy weapon), and in the case of a full kuva loadout, would have a 25% chance of getting each weapon.

if the player does not have a kuva variant of a weapon equipped, but does have another non-kuva variant of the weapon equipped, then the larvling should have a high (but not guaranteed) chance to spawn with a kuva variant of that weapon. so for example, if i had a regular ogris equipped, the larvling would have (say) a 50% chance to have a kuva ogris, with the rest of the weapons being possible but a lower probability. if i had multiple eligible weapons - for example, if i was carrying both a regular ogris and a regular nukor - then that probability would be weighted between the two of them (since i'm just spitballing numbers, i will call it a 30% chance for each, with the remaining 40% of drops coming from the rest of the pool - but obviously these are just numbers pulled from the air).

if a player does not have a kuva weapon or a non-kuva variant of a kuva weapon equipped, then the weapon selection for the larvling would be totally random.

obviously the numbers are just examples, and weapons such as the chakurr, ayanga, etc would be harder to get initially as they do not have non-kuva variants. (is the solution here to make non-kuva variants to pad out the mastery roster and to be used to aid the chase for kuva variants? possibly, though i don't know if DE would consider it worth their time)

this is also obviously quite a complicated system, especially once the non-kuva variant system is added in. the case of a player having a mix of kuva and non-kuva-precusor weapons - for example, if their loadout was regular ogris, kuva nukor, and an ineligible melee - would further complicate the system. personally i would lean towards suggesting that in such cases the presence of kuva weapons should override any 'precusor' weapons - the IC/lore reasoning being that the larvling sees the player's kuva weapon as a 'taunt' of a kind and wishes to respond with their own, superior version of the weapon.

at the very least, i believe that adding in some kind of system which makes it easier for players to find new versions of weapons they already have in order to use valence fusion to improve their guns would be of benefit to players.

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The ability to link liches (Similar to Look Link but showing the codex for the lich) would be nice QoL. Useful for trading liches and those who, like me, just wants to see all the cool and different liches people get.

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Kuva liches are still just grinding on top of grinding. Unlocking the star chart was fun, completing the quests was fun. Everything after that, kuva liches included, is a grind on top of a grind. The first lich was okay, but I'm on my 9th now and its stopped feeling like any kind of progression. Kill marked enemies in the same recycled tilesets on planets that all look the same. Being able to see the weapon I'm going to get is nice, but

Spoiler

I think I'm over it.

 

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To implement weapons that you have to forma 5 times to get the mastery points out of it is still naughty in an bad way. And no, I cant skip it because Mastery is my personal endgame. My consequence was to generally stop playing because this is an objective is not reachable without an Burnout

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So after 6 hours of trying to get a Kuva Karak after i killed a lich with one, i just remembered that we aren't allowed to get duplicate weapons after we kill a lich.

Could that be changed please?

Edited by Ryujin
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2 minutes ago, Ryujin said:

So after 6 hours of trying to get a Kuva Karak after i killed a lich with one, i just remembered that we aren't allowed to get duplicate weapons after we kill a lich.

Could that be changed please?

I've been wondering if this was the case, would be good if the anti dupe system was transferred over to larvalings instead of liches (assuming it's not just a case of really bad RNG)

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I had to do abort larva farming missions for 2 and a half hours to get the last weapon. Maybe instead of kuva we can get a token then we can use the token to force a weapon? it would also make it that abort farming the larva is not the fastest way.

lich encounters still to random. Since this update i killed 4 liches.I had back to back liches spawns. i had a lich that only spawned 4 times in 4 hours and i had a lich that took 3 missions to spawn with a max out rage meter(it was rank 5).

Wisper gain is still to slow. maybe give whisper for completing missions if you don't want to reduce the amount needed. And make mission like mobile defence, spy, disruption give extra whisper since they are intel gather mission. Can also maybe add kill squad for whisper in normal/lich missions for a bit extra.

thrall spawns is linked to normal spawns so they tent to spawn less if you solo. 

No thrall spawn after you kill all enemies in a exterminate mission.

thralls stop spawning after someone kill a lich: unsure if it 100% of the time.

Even with the new influx of players doing liches again i'm still soloing a lot of the mission.

some of the nodes on I believe mars is broken during lich missions starting them crash the game.

If had stuff that should not be converted be converted:namely a friendly lich.

I would like to see the weapon elemental % 

unsure if its a bug but after fusing 2 weapon my elemental damage and normal(base damage of gun) went up.

i would like it when you fuse 2 weapon you can pick the element.Im farming a ephemera so when i get a weapon i want to upgrade but it has a element i don't want i would need to farm more just to change it back.But i am not 100% sure since i didn't take screenshots

Edited by b4timert
added last sentence.
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I didn't touch the liches before the patch, and I've done 3 since.

The murmur farming isn't all that bad, just boring.  I feel like I've got to start a mission and then hide for a minute or 2 so the timer reaches a point where I feel comfortable that I'll get the spawns I need.

I don't much like feeling compelled to do a lich in 1 long session.  If I had other things that were a higher priority, I wouldn't be messing with them at all right now, I'd be waiting until I see what phase 3 is going to be.

However, more than anything, I'm getting a bug with mercy kills and mesa, where if I cast 2 or 3 as I'm finishing a mercy kill I get stuck halfway through an animation and can't move.  Also got it with a switch teleport, so might be mesa rather than the mercy kill.

I would definitely suggest revisiting the whole making-it-go-away idea you guys were working on before this patch... I'm sharing what I've learned about the process with people and I'm realizing if people get stuck with a level 5 lich they can't beat, their whole game would basically be broken.

An earlier poster was talking about a rage inducer of some kind... I definitely would have used a lich beacon today if there was such a thing.  I got stuck doing a couple extra missions I really didn't want to do today, but I also got lucky in my requiem guesses, so I guess it was fine this time.

edit: 1 more thing... after going through 3 liches, I completely forgot the progenitor helmet shows up on their shoulder, and didn't notice them at all until just now when I went looking for them.  Visually, their designs are so busy, the helmets just blend in.  Maybe make them a chrome color or something with more contrast so they are more noticeable?

Edited by mkah_mvet
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