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[DE]Rebecca

Kuva Lich 1.1: Feedback Megathread

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The changes so far are a step in the right direction, absolutely. A gripe I have with the system that was in it's original conception, however, is that once we have a lich, we sort of mindlessly meander in their territory until RNG procs and something happens. I feel it would be better to encourage this mentality that we are a thorn in their side, as well as we are actively trying to put them down. A simple idea I had while farming liches today would change the rewards a little bit based on what mission you run in their territory, to either give you a boost of murmurs or tick off the lich more to have them come invade you quicker.

For example: A Sabotage Mission or Exterminate would probably be you being a direct PITA to your Lich, and thus would fill their rage meter more than any other mission, encouraging them to come after you.
A Spy however may go unnoticed, but what you're there spying for is information on the weakness of the Lich, giving you a large chunk of murmur progress. To a lesser extent this could be applied to Capture missions. They are 'vital to enemy operations,' after all. Why wouldn't the capture target have the same info as a Thrall if this territory is properly owned/run by the Lich?
These sorts of extra choices about how you tackle your lich would go a long way in making the system more interactive. This combined with the intended Railjack missions to attack the Lich's galleons/bases directly would help this feel way more cohesive. As it stands now, a hunt for a lich for me is just 'Run exterminates and captures for 2 hours for murmurs.'

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My number 1 complaint is the issue of getting them to spawn once you have all 3 runes. At that point having their rage set to indifferent is just pointless and in fact should be the other way around with the litch spawning more as you find runes.

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I liked Kuva Liches as endgame content as they were, although I have no objections to these QOL changes, except for that they no longer break your back. They seem just as weak as their thralls now, and it honestly kind of makes me enjoy them less, as I never feel challenged, which makes overcoming them less gratifying.

Also, since we're allowed to see which weapon our to-be-Kuva-Lich will have, I'd love to also see if they will have an ephemera. This game is called Fashionframe, after all!

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Can we have an info on how much the weapon damage and what elemental bonus it currently has, just like railjack weapon when we press "tab" for detail weapon info in inventory?

Because i have to do it manually by taking ss now to keep track on it or keep one of the same weapon as a spare so i can press the "valence transfer" and check it, which are bothersome to do

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Kuva LIches that spawn on Uranus need help, there are only four nodes where they can take over and it makes it a real pain to solo because they can't take over any submersible nodes so you're forced to do missions that aren't all that solo friendly like interception.

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Is the "Next immediate weapon will not be a duplicate" rule from part 1 still in effect? If so then it should be removed. It no longer serves any purpose now that we have control over weapon spawn. I rolled a Chakkhurr lich and wanted to roll another one to fuse and max out. But after the first Chakkhurr, I ran Cassini for almost 3 hours but couldn't get it to spawn. Maybe I'm just really unlucky but running for 3 hours straight without a single spawn of the weapon I want immediately after I vanquished the previous lich made me suspicious that there was something else going on. That's when I remembered about that immediate following weapon rule. If it is still in effect, then please remove it as it now hinders our progression on maxing out our weapons. I want to max out my weapon as fast as possible so ideally I would want a second chakkhurr lich immediately after the first. If this rule is still in effect then that would mean I have to waste time going through a weapon I don't want before I can try for the chakkhurr again.

Again this is all speculation, but I'm just putting it out there that progression of Kuva weapons should be

Weapon of choice > duplicate > duplicate >... Until maxed, not

weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice >...until maxed 

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1 hour ago, Kalsiam said:

Is the "Next immediate weapon will not be a duplicate" rule from part 1 still in effect? If so then it should be removed. It no longer serves any purpose now that we have control over weapon spawn. I rolled a Chakkhurr lich and wanted to roll another one to fuse and max out. But after the first Chakkhurr, I ran Cassini for almost 3 hours but couldn't get it to spawn. Maybe I'm just really unlucky but running for 3 hours straight without a single spawn of the weapon I want immediately after I vanquished the previous lich made me suspicious that there was something else going on. That's when I remembered about that immediate following weapon rule. If it is still in effect, then please remove it as it now hinders our progression on maxing out our weapons. I want to max out my weapon as fast as possible so ideally I would want a second chakkhurr lich immediately after the first. If this rule is still in effect then that would mean I have to waste time going through a weapon I don't want before I can try for the chakkhurr again.

Again this is all speculation, but I'm just putting it out there that progression of Kuva weapons should be

Weapon of choice > duplicate > duplicate >... Until maxed, not

weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice >...until maxed 

not that wield took 3 hours to get my 1st hind. but the no duplicate in a row rule is most likely also still in effect.

the larva should give token's not kuva.the chance to get a weapon you want will only get smaller with each new weapon.

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Farming murmur mechanic is still boring not rewarding and unfun experience. We need more dialogue (at least 1000 more lines so we don't feel repeating the same liches) and we need a revolutionary changes on libareting nods that lich has got and on thrall system.
 

  • My solution is libarating nodes will give meaningfull little rewards like 300 endo +300 kuva at the same time as a reward so it won't get effected from boosters. And libarating the whole planet gives 1k endo+1k kuva, 
     
  •  For thralls I think should be more like body guards  of the lich like in shadow of mordor series (which the idea origin came from) Instead of farming thralls lich captured nodes should have only one thrall on every map like mini boss , they should have diffrent model completly original one for thralls only and we should interogate them brutally and than we should get 15 percent knowledge for one of the 3 requim words and all requim words should have same progress level instead of first 2 of them has the same level and 3 of it has the double amount which is stealing all the time .
     
  • If you know one requim mod lich should have spawn chance 33 percent if you know 2 of them 66 percent and if you know all 3 of the requim mods it should spawn in a mission for 100 percent. Cause realy none of the players not enjoying for waiting for their lich for many missions after they have the right order of requim mods  ( I have searched my last lich after I have learned every requim mods and their correct order for at least 5 missions )  Doing missions for just waiting for lich to spawn is a directly painfull experince trust me. And liches shound't lose their anger over us when they leveled up , this mechanic totally against the definition of the word nemesis
  •  
  • And finally liches should have a more active combat instead of jumping around and one shoting grab attacks. I mean I don't mind that wrestling grab of the lich cause I am mostly playing with brute frames like Rhino or Grendel but that grab could even one shot my  umbral chroma with ice power (which is way more armored) So instead of that grab we can use a quick time event like in old god of war series or like  some bosses of vindictus (a clash animation maybe) or some dodge mechanics like in the darks souls . I realy don't mind if it is hard to counter move but it should be a counterable move , I mean if you are nova main or mag main I can't realy imagine the pain that you will get from the experience when you accidently come close to lich or lich teleports near you and do that instant locking one shot move to you . 

    Liches should kill us and should hit like a truck but they shouldn't cheat like  instant unescapable one shot moves (actually if you go to your operator before they grab you your warframe still thrown down but won't get any damage but I don't think that is intentional nor a reflex based move for player )


Have a nice day and I hope you will consider these kind of options make the lich content more coop friendly and more fun and rewarding

Edited by Orakan
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I think along the way both the players and the devs forgot that the meat of the Kuva Lich system was the nemesis fight, and not the reward. 

Personally I would like the Kuva Lich system to act like a quest/sortie, where we fight off hit squads and progress to boss fights versus our Kuva Lich nemesis.

So how could the Kuva Lich system progress forward without having to revert what has already been done?

1 - Have the Kuva Thralls spawn in like Syndicate Hit Squads during regular missions, connecting them to the rest of the game.

  • These Thralls have a guaranteed spawn on planets under the influence of the Lich
  • Thrall Hit Squads can sometimes spawn with the Lich as their Commander
  • Thrall Hit Squads can randomly spawn in other missions where the Lich doesn't have influence, integrating them into other parts of the game.
  • Thrall Hit Squads spawn into missions at lvl 60+ depending on the Rank of the Kuva Lich. The level of the mission does not change. (ex; Mariana lvl 1-3, Thrall Hit Squad lvl 60+)
  • Thrall Hit Squads spawn with 10-15 enemies, all of varying enemy types (ex; Kuva Thrall Bombard, Kuva Thrall Guardian, Kuva Thrall Hyekka Master, etc)
  • Thrall Hit Squads can spawn multiple times in a mission depending on the amount of players. (ex; 4 players with Liches spawn 4 Thrall Hit Squads, gaining murmurs for all)
  • Thrall Hit Squads have a greater chance of dropping the rarest resource on the planet where they spawn. (ex, Spawn on Ceres, have a greater chance of dropping Orokin Cells)

2 - Give the Kuva Lich its own "Lair" where the player can attempt to gain back some of their stolen resources.

  • Lairs spawn on the planet where the Kuva Lich was "born", and have a theme based on the Kuva Lich
  • Lairs work like the Assault gamemode, and upon a successful completion give back some of the stolen resources.
  • Lairs have a guaranteed spawn of the Kuva Lich, after the main objective has been complete.
  • Lair Locations are not known immediately, and require a successful Spy, Capture, and Interception mission on any controlled planet to unlock the mission.
  • Lairs remain visible once unlocked, and can be replayed to get back rewards until the Kuva Lich is killed or converted.

3 - Once a player knows the correct sequence to kill their Kuva Lich, they get to fight their Kuva Lich at the Lair

  • Once a player finds the correct sequence, the Kuva Lich retreats and says something like, "Lets settle this, Tenno. You know where to find me!"
  • Once the Lich flees after the correct sequence, all planetary nodes lose their influence from the Lich and Thrall Hit Squads will no longer spawn
  • If you are fighting your Lich in the Lair when you get the correct sequence, the normal convert/vanquish screen pops up as normal
  • Defeating a Kuva Lich in the Lair gives you back all of your resources that have not been stolen back previously

 

I feel that this would help to build upon what already exists with the current system, and would help make the system feel closer to Nemesis Fight. This also helps the Kuva Lich system connect back to the rest of the game by allowing players to complete Kuva Liches at their own pace. If a player wants to sprint through the system, they can attack the Lair multiple times to get back their resources and fight the Kuva Lich faster. If a player wants to play it slow, they can experience the Thrall Hit Squads during their regular missions.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Kalsiam said:

Is the "Next immediate weapon will not be a duplicate" rule from part 1 still in effect? If so then it should be removed. It no longer serves any purpose now that we have control over weapon spawn. I rolled a Chakkhurr lich and wanted to roll another one to fuse and max out. But after the first Chakkhurr, I ran Cassini for almost 3 hours but couldn't get it to spawn. Maybe I'm just really unlucky but running for 3 hours straight without a single spawn of the weapon I want immediately after I vanquished the previous lich made me suspicious that there was something else going on. That's when I remembered about that immediate following weapon rule. If it is still in effect, then please remove it as it now hinders our progression on maxing out our weapons. I want to max out my weapon as fast as possible so ideally I would want a second chakkhurr lich immediately after the first. If this rule is still in effect then that would mean I have to waste time going through a weapon I don't want before I can try for the chakkhurr again.

Again this is all speculation, but I'm just putting it out there that progression of Kuva weapons should be

Weapon of choice > duplicate > duplicate >... Until maxed, not

weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice > unwanted weapon > weapon of choice >...until maxed 

I agree, both in that I think this rule is still in effect, and that it should not be. I myself was running Cassini for an hour and a half nearly before I remembered that this rule was a thing. It was a very good rule to have in effect before this latest update no doubt, but now that we are able to see what a larvaling will generate with as a lich it is a surprising feelsbad that I have to essentially alternate between different weapons at best instead of focusing on a specific one.

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at the moment the entire system is still more like kuva thralls and not kuva lich as an overwhelming amount of time is spent farming thralls instead of actually fighting the lich

idea: the lich now shows up x times more frequently, balance this out by reducing gains from lich spawn proportionally by 1/x, this includes murmur on fail, kuva on fail, additional spawned thralls etc

this will lower the total time taken to finish a lich as it would reach lvl 5 faster with the current rage system, if de wanted to keep the time the same as before then the gains can be tweaked to below 1/x as well as reworking the rage meter system (which also addresses the difficulty change if they ranked up faster)

rage system ideas:

linear rage from rank 1 to max rank instead of reset on rank up

rage checkpoints with guaranteed lich spawn

higher max rank

 

Edited by STEPONMEKIMJISOO
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On 2020-02-05 at 1:11 AM, BPTheFirst said:

PLEASE let us abandon a lich we dont want, because in Warframe, everyone prioritizes speed and a misclick can happen, leading to a lich they dont want because they were trying to speed run a farm. First day of this update and happened to me already, offering me a weapon i already have, on the same element, and worse %

You're on your own as far as I'm concerned - there is literally 0 need to eXecute when doing a larvaling run, and so what you're saying is that you were in such a rush that in a mission where the only reason to EVER press X is to spawn a lich (since there aren't thralls if you don't have a lich yet), and knowing that they had improvements and you should be paying attention, you just ran up and hit X without actually paying attention to what weapon would spawn?  And don't try to argue you're using eXecutes regularly through the mission - just finishing them with power/weapon is faster than eXecute, and by your own statement the whole "mistake" happened because you were prioritizing going fast Fast FAST!! so surely you weren't Xing every random enemy that might have given the option.

PEBKAC, PICNIC, pick your acronym of choice, this is user error not DE error.

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10 hours ago, AnuKaneDai said:

yay, 4th unwanted lich because of press x thrall frenzy...

How, there are no thralls if you have no lich?  Larvaling mission by definition means you won't fight any thralls, unless maybe you're doing it in a group.  Don't want random lich, don't x things without paying attention.  Take 2 seconds to watch your screen and read.  If you're in a group, maybe let the others who have liches do the eXecutes on thralls if paying attention is too hard, or run it solo to spawn your lich.  A mid level grineer mission doesn't really need a squad to steamroll in 10 minutes..

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Another thing I want to put out is that even though we technically have control over what weapon we want, we don't have complete control. We're still rolling for a chance to get what we want, but this time it's just less painful. Although this is much better than what we had before, it still feels RNG reliant. 

I really hoped that you guys went with the token and bait idea that Steve and Scott mentioned on stream instead of this. My suggestion is to make larvlings that are either killed or turned into a lich give 1 token(affected by resource booster) instead of Kuva. Also make it so that you must finish the mission to keep the tokens. You can then take the tokens to Paladino and get a Kuva weapon bait for the one you want like conservation. You can then go into a mission, drop the bait and down a larvling next to it which will then guarantee the weapon you want. 

This way, players will have an incentive to actually finish the mission instead of aborting every time they don't roll the weapon they want (let's be real, 100 Kuva isn't really enough to make anyone want to complete a mission), Paladino would actually have a role and not just sit in her room growing mold, and most importantly, players will have absolute control over weapon choice.

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I love the new update. What keeps killing me tho is that the third Requiem takes freaking ages to complete.

It takes like 2hours for every lich tbh and this happens when you have a full group hunting them

Oh and the RNG between weapons...omg. I would suggest something like a spawn order

Lets say i try first its Chakkur, the next is Sheldig and after finishing the whole order back to the Chakkur then Sheldig etc

I dont know if i confused you with my english

Edited by Darkstalix

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On 2020-02-04 at 6:50 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be fed into your 40% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 40% damage can be fed into your 25% weapon, to make it 44%
  • Your Kuva Kohm with 25% damage can be fed into your 44% weapon, to make it 48.4%

Some kind of transparency on what the math here is ?

I fed 28% to 47% and got 51.7%, I can estimate how much more I need to maximise it, but these numbers don't immediately make sense and I'd rather not be guessing, especially if I wanted to buy it instead of grinding for it.

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34 minutes ago, Unoptimal said:

Some kind of transparency on what the math here is ?

I fed 28% to 47% and got 51.7%, I can estimate how much more I need to maximise it, but these numbers don't immediately make sense and I'd rather not be guessing, especially if I wanted to buy it instead of grinding for it.

higher % * 1.1.  EG 28+47 = 47+4.7% = 51.7.  Next merge assuming lower % new weapon, would be 51.7+5.17 (assuming it rounds to 5.2 so 56.9.  You'd need 2 merges into the 51.7 to max.  The lower % doesn't seem relevant at all, just a 10% increase no matter what the two are.

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6 minutes ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

higher % * 1.1.  EG 28+47 = 47+4.7% = 51.7.  Next merge assuming lower % new weapon, would be 51.7+5.17 (assuming it rounds to 5.2 so 56.9.  You'd need 2 merges into the 51.7 to max.  The lower % doesn't seem relevant at all, just a 10% increase no matter what the two are.

Thanks, that seems to line up, dissapointing that the quality of the addition makes no difference so I'll always have needed to add three more, assuming they were/are lower.

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I'm just gonna post my 2 cents on the current state of the Lich system, see what people think of it.

Lich & Longetivity
The new changes to stat transfer and removal of some RNG to Lich generation are steps in the right direction, but I personally find that they do not fix one of the fundamental issue with the current Lich system: There is no longevity or connection to them. For most player, a Lich is a simple nuisance on the way to earn a new weapon or an RNG filled system with nothing more to offer than slightly better weapons.
After some thoughts and discussion with some friends, I tried to brainstorm how the longevity and attachment could be remedied. Note that the following does not cover everything and is merely a small list of things I think could help the current situation before corpus "liches" are brought into the mix and make things even harder to change.

Lich Stronghold
The center of operation of your Lich in this region. Taking it out will be a blow to your adversary.

A special mission associated to your Kuva Lich. The mission is unlocked when you have fully liberated the region of your Lich's influence.
The mission is a series of objectives (think 2 standard mission objectives + a guaranteed confrontation with your Lich)
The confrontation happens just as it does now, with using your Parazon and trying various requiem combinations. Failing a combination does not causes the Lich to run away, unless you have the right combination. If you do, you wound the Lich and automatically "Weaken" the Lich (more on that later).
Instead, 2 options are ofered to the player : Empower & Weaken

Empower: Your warframe executes the Lich using one of it's power, increasing the Lich's strength and imbuing it with your frame's powers.
This gives the Lich a new strength/remove a weakness based on the frame that was used for the Stronghold mission. Brought Ember to roast it? Guess who's fireproof now? Killed him with Ash/Loki/Ivara? Your invisibility is useless against him now.
The Lich ranks up and spreads it's influence to 2 new regions (current region is now Lich free).

Weaken: Your warframe executes the Lich using your weapons, denying it its power surge.
This removes a strength/adds a weakness to the Lich. Had a scythe when fighting the Lich? Well now it's scared of heavy blades.
The Lich does not rank up and it re-establishes itself in a new region.

Both options lead to the player gaining requiem progress and walking away with the Lich's current weapon. The Lich will have a new toy the next time you meet it.
That means a single Lich can be farmed for multiple weapons. A single Lich can be used to stockpile weapons of a single elemental type (you could theoretically max out a "Fire" Tonkor on a single Lich) and duplicates can be immediately invested in a previously earned weapon.

Lich Assassinate
A direct strike at the Lich. No special objective, you're going straight for it. It's do or die.

A special mission that's unlocked once you know the right combination of requiem mods. The combination is auto-equipped on entering the mission (I said it's do or die, I mean it). It plays out like a standard assassinate mission, except it's the Lich talking to you during the mission (no Lotus here, this is personal).
At the end of the fight, if you are victorious, the same choice of Convert & Kill is offered to the player. The Lich is finally defeated, you can now move on to creating a new one.


A small list of notes/improvements that don't fit in with the rest:

  • Add a new mission tab to keep track of Stronghold progress per  region and to contain the Assassinate mission once it's available.
  • More personality for Liches. Even just more lines would be a welcome addition in reducing how  much all the Liches are alike.
  • A custom animation for each frame for the Empower choice could go a long way in making things more unique.
  • Grineer wearing a patchwork of kuva armor in the Stronghold and Assassinate mission would look nice and fit nicely thematically.
  • I didn't talk about Ephemeras here because I honestly don't know what would be the best option.
  • Please don't make Corpus "Liches" Kuva related, that's a grineer thing. Hell, make them Tau tech related and retrofit the Wolf of Saturn Six as a prototype of that stuff and include him in a new quest to introduce them.
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These are good changes, but it’s nowhere near enough. Lichs are still just boring disposable loot boxes.

Nothing short of a full rework is gonna fix that.

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On 2020-02-06 at 11:57 PM, FartBoySlime said:

Can we have an info on how much the weapon damage and what elemental bonus it currently has, just like railjack weapon when we press "tab" for detail weapon info in inventory?

Because i have to do it manually by taking ss now to keep track on it or keep one of the same weapon as a spare so i can press the "valence transfer" and check it, which are bothersome to do

I completely agree with this. It's impossible to keep track as there is no recorded change in the Kuva Codex of your Valence Transfer. Not to mention I have tons of Liches in Codex making it harder to sort through. We can see total numbers if we unequip all mods, but that doesn't tell us the weapon's bonus %.

Just make a simple UI text change only in the arsenal adding for example "51%" to the weapon's description after the name. Just a visual reference. Some way we can keep track. 

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So it turns out Kuva Larvlings become locked to the player who downed them, even if that player decides not to convert it into a Lich. 

For example, Say I'm in a 4 player squad and I down the Larvling, but it doesn't show the weapon I want. The sensible thing to do would be to let my squadmates have the chance to take it instead. However, since I was the one who downed it, currently my squadmates cannot interact with it. They can't stab it, they can't even see what weapon it will have. It's completely locked out for them. 

Now granted, I understand that making the downed Larvling instantly available for anyone in the squad to stab would open the door to people just stealing the Lich before the others can react, which I'm guessing is the reason it currently is the way it is.

SO, here is my suggestion for a way to allow sharing of an unwanted Larvling amongst squadmates without opening the door to theivery.
 

  • 1: Increase the lifespan of a downed Larvling before it dies from the current 30s to 1m.
  • 2: Keep the current "locked out" state initially, so the player who downed it has the first chance to decide if they want it.
  • 3: Make the current "locked out" state only last for 30s or so. If the player who downed the Larvling doesn't stab it in this time, it opens up to the rest of the squad to pick over.

 

To reiterate: with the current system, if the player who downed a Larvling decides not to take it, the Larvling is completely wasted and nobody else even gets a chance at it. If these changes or something fairly similar were implemented, it would allow for everyone in a squad the opportunity to take it if the player who downed it decides not to.

 

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I don't mind the murmur/lich farming being repetitive and boring, i mean the rest of the game is like that too, i'm used to it. This is farmframe after all. But ofc making it faster would be welcomed.

I only have 2 problems:

1) bugs

2) The lich and thralls spawning at random places on the map. Make them spawn next to a player. It happens way too often that the squad is at the extraction point and the lich spawns at the start of the mission... Imo at least the lich should spawn next to the player they are hunting, just like the stalker.

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