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Kuva Lich 1.1: Feedback Megathread


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After having gone through the process of taking out a couple of liches under the new system I have some thoughts.

First up, the Murmur farming is still pretty tedious but it is overall less tedious than previous versions.

I like being able to preview the weapon before deciding to proc the lich or not. 

Spawn Locations are still broken.  Stop spawning half a kilometre back down the map when I am 10m from the evac.

Requiems are still the least fun part of the entire experience, there is too much RNG involved, rng to get the relic, rng to get the reward, over and over.  We should be able to recharge expended requiems.

 

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Please reverse the change on 27.1.2

Quote

Empyrean: Prime Vault 27.1.2

Kuva Lich Changes & Fixes:

  • We have removed the back-to-back Kuva Lich weapon mechanic that was added in 26.0.7, where your Kuva Lich would have a guaranteed different Kuva weapon than its immediate predecessor.
    • With the change of the Kuva Larvling now displaying its birthed Kuva Lich weapon, there was no need to maintain the back-to-back restriction as you can now just choose to ignore or take the back-to-back weapon if you wish you use it for Valence Fusion.

The change makes farming specific Kuva weapon incredibly frustrating.

I just did 30 Cassini captures and still didn't see Kuva Karak. Instead, I was seeing duplicated of Drakoon, Nukor, Kraken, and Brakk.

Then after 30 runs I accidentally hit mercy on a larvling. Now I have to clear this lich by farming requiem mods and thralls, such time consuming process for a single button mistake.

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That always happened - you could get a streak of weapons on larvalings, or take 50+ runs for a specific one to pop up.

This update only changed the fact that once you claimed a weapon from a lich, you couldn't get that weapon again until you claimed a different weapon (e.g., if you claimed a Nukor from a lich, then you could not get a larvaling with a Nukor until you did a different weapon in between).

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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Going back to my previous post, I thought about how tracking the progress of Kuva Vassals could look like and how to show their drops, so I made a (pretty rough) mock up. 

SWXk5ZI.jpg

Took a stab at also coming up with some names for the rewards that aren't necessarily "items". Requiem Halt is the requiem freezing mechanic I mentioned before, and would automatically apply to any one of the 3 slots once the mission ends. Again the rewards themselves and their drop rates are up for debate, and this is in no way meant to be gospel for how the UI should look like, but I hope this visually communicates what I was describing earlier. 

And going back to Thrall Hitsquads for just a second, instead of having a swarm of regular Thralls and having to mercy each one, instead the Hitsquad could be a Kuva Vassal with 5-6 Grineer soldiers. The murmur reward would be about the same, with the benefit being you only need to mercy kill one target instead of running about having to mercy every Thrall that spawned in. Plus, the Kuva Vassals drops would be in effect.

Edited by (PS4)BloodyHell
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1 hour ago, (NSW)guacxmole said:

I'd love some more diverse voice lines for liches please! It gets tiring listening to the same thing over and over. They are each supposed to have their own personality and quirks, no? 

That plus less dissonance between their lines and their actions.

"I take your coin as easily as I take your life, your power, your joy".

The only part of the latter 3 they've taken is the joy, and that's only because it's such a boring grind. This mainly applies to the female liches - all this talk about how they're oh so in charge and smug when I'm leading them along like the Pied Piper purely so that they can make more minions for me to shank right in front of their face. And the moment they're done making minions, they get beaten into the dirt in a fraction of a second and promptly ignored afterwards like the irrelevance that they are.

At least the male liches don't take things too seriously. There's a reason why I only ever recruit them.

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Speaking of recruited liches, can we have an option to delete them?

I'd prefer the option to include getting their weapon (e.g. a Dread Pirate Roberts approach, kind of a "Good Job Snorg Bupkiss, I'll most likely kill you in the morning"), but it doesn't have to. I have no interest in hanging on to my converted liches; they're nothing but trouble.

 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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It has been mentioned before, but its very easy to accidentally press the action button and get a lich you didn't want. Aborting the mission or alt+f4 doesn't save you either from what I've heard.

 

It is a rather rough punishment for a simple button press. While we should 'be more careful', it would be nice to cancel a lich. Especially if more will be added to the lich system~ higher levels and whatnot.

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While I personally haven't created my own Lich, I've been helping my friend go through several Liches.

Things we/I noted:

The Murmur farm is too long for what the system boils down to. (it's not a nemesis system that needs to be long and drawn out... and it really could be, if the weapon acquisition was untied from the death of the Lich... but it's only a stalker-esque boss hunted for their weapon.) I'd add alternative ways to acquire murmurs:

  • Spy Vaults - murmurs for successful hacking of vaults - and potentially a requiem mod's position
  • Interception - murmurs for successfully intercepting transmissions from/to the lich
  • Capture - interrogating a captured thrall for murmurs
  • Mobile Defense - gain intel from the computer system, granting murmurs
  • Assassinate - take down one of the Lich's powerful lieutenants for a requiem and its position.

While my friend stabbed the Lich more than I would, he's more reckless than I am, and he used this method to spread the Lich's influence over more nodes to pick and choose missions that he liked more than others... I'd prefer a combination of things for a more slow-burn, safer method that doesn't level up the Lich. First, at rank 1, a Lich would take control of a few nodes of a planet. If you clear those nodes, but don't kill the Lich, over time (each daily reset?), it would claim/re-claim nodes on that 1 planet. Clearing all of a Lich's influence from a planet wouldn't level them up and cause them to spread; instead, it would reveal their base of operations (or a Lieutenant's location). The other thing I'd add, would be a method of turning any node in their controlled territory into a Thrall Hunt (extermination), as an optional version of any node, even if the influence had been cleared from that node previously (the thralls would always be working in the background on planets to take over... you just hunt them down before that influence is recognized.)

 

Drawing out the Lich once the entire requiem sequence is known can take several missions where nothing of worth is gained. Perhaps linked to the updated missions in the murmur farm, like taking out the Lieutenants, would help triangulate the home base of the Lich.

 

Converted Liches are indeed powerful allies (now), but the random nature of which one will appear, when they'll appear, how long they'll stick around, etc, really spoils their potential. It would be nice if they could be toggled on/off in the Codex page for their random appearances, and you really should be able to craft spectre-style gear items that would call them to your side. (with a Kuva ingredient + nav coordinate crafting cost) The desired Lich could be selected just like we select a spectre from our loadouts... they'd use the Lich history in the Codex to select the Lich called when used.

 

 

Hopefully the devs agree!

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While the changes sound good on paper, they have absolutly zero impact on how i approach Liches (i dont approach them at all after 3 Liches).

 

Weapon determination:

  • It was annoying as hell to pray to RNG to get the weapon the you want
  • With this hotfix the only thing that changed is that i get a preview of the RNG - you didnt remove the annoying part
  • if i want a certain weapon i still have to pray to RNG that i am allowed to get a certain weapon and might have to run a stupid amount of meaningless missions to get there

Possible fix:

  • i suggested it a few times: just let us actively chose the weapon the Lich/Larvling will carry. Whats wrong with that?
  • Just like our Warframes determine the element of the weapon - the weapon we used to kill the larvling determines the weapon itself.
  1. is there an existing weapon of a kuva-variant (normal Kraken for example)? Kill the Larvling with Kraken to get Kuva Kraken.
  2. want the Archgun? Kill it with an Archgun.
  3. Want the Melee-Weapon? Kill it with a Melee Weapon.

 

I know i am not killing a larvling who doesnt has the weapon i want, you know it, everyone knows it.

So why am i forced to run a random meaningless mission over and over again when to even start the process of farming a weapon?

I really have better things to do in life than this.

 

Am 20.2.2020 um 15:54 schrieb Invoky:

I just did 30 Cassini captures and still didn't see Kuva Karak. Instead, I was seeing duplicated of Drakoon, Nukor, Kraken, and Brakk.

Then after 30 runs I accidentally hit mercy on a larvling. Now I have to clear this lich by farming requiem mods and thralls, such time consuming process for a single button mistake.

This here is exactly the reason why i decided not to do another Lich after the Update:

On paper it might sound like something improved - but in reality i still have to go through the most stupid activities to get somewhere i want to be.

 

But even with this change, would i engage Liches more often? Probably only for the new Bow (and maybe the Archgun).

Why? Because like so many players pointed out, the process of Murmur farming itself gets so tedious i really dont wanna do it.

 

Separation from the rest of the game:

  • Liches are completly seperated from the rest of the game. If you want to fight a Lich, you only have exclusive missions to do that.
  • Thats part of the reason why Murmur farming is that annoying. You cannot really do anything else if you want to progess there.
  • Playing up to 4 hours to get a certain weapon might be ok if it could be done everywhere in the game, but when we have to dedicate all of our time to one single activity (which is that boring) it feels like a torture.

Possible fix:

  • Let Thralls spawn in any kind of mission - no matter which part of the game you chose to play, you can progress with Liches a bit.
  • add some kind of different Murmur farm to Railjack since Liches were supposed to be part of that anyway.
  • in regards to stealing loot: determine the amount of stolen loot with Thralls killed: Lots of Thralls killed = least amount stolen / Few Thralls killed = lots of Loot stolen
  • Imagine we could gather standing for syndicate only in syndicate missions or Focus only in ESO...ofc that would get crazy annoying - just add options.

 

 

 

For me, the Lich-system needs some more drastic changes if i shall ever engage with it again.

All the (justified!) rants about the mutliple layers of RNG over RNG over RNG simply covered the fact that the system behind it isnt fun aswell.

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Finishing the larvling - Opt In has to be changed to be more noticable in your face. After eons of mindless murmur farming you press x at everything that allows you to use finisher/parazon. My friends and I killed the larvling without even seeing the weapon with farming-like mind just to realize it a second too late - even leaving the mission, shutting down internet, nothing works. You spawned a lich. Muscle memory is a thing! It's awfully frustrating to have to deal with a lich with a crappy weapon you already have - again. I've done it several times now and it makes me want to quit the game for a while as I have no other thing to do in warframe atm. I would even pay platinum for an option to get rid of it and be able to get a new one.

I know it's my fault for not paying enough attention but given the circumstances of how grindy the whole lich system is it happens a lot.

It would really be nice and quality of life if you gave us an option to get rid of them or make opt in more noticable - idk a simple confirm pop up would be enough. Please :_:

Edited by -CM-Mrow
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3 hours ago, (XB1)Vamma Takayn said:

 

“VANQUISHER KUVA”: A concept to further reward the lich gameplay loop.

Vanquisher Kuva would be Kuva taken from Vanquished Liches ONLY that could be used to increase the power level of selected converted Liches to make them more of an asset in combat, or even increase individual stats/characteristics/fashion if you want to get that detailed/specific.

It’s really just that simple.  Added value to existing features.

 

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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I tell you what i am currently hating about the lich mechanic.

I find it pretty boring to play through these things solo and i cannot stand playing in public. When i do liches therefore it is with a group of friends, clan mates & alliance people.

If i play solo every mission revs up my lich's anger. If i play in public the same, with a change of a random lich to increase thralls. However when we pay as a group it is only the person selecting their mission who gains anger. So we take it in turns to pick missions. So with a group of 4 friends it can take 4 times as long to generate anger and so get our lich to spawn. 4 times as long for each attempt and testing the mods on each lich, 4 times as long to then get them angry enough to show up again.

For a supposedly co-op game to punish people who play with their friends this really amps up my anger bar and after doing quite a few liches this way it is p****ed me off so much i'm really not motivated to do much more, which is a shame with a few weapons i still need, a few weapons i want to buff and the corpus liches coming (although who knows if they'l have the same mechanics)

So what i would do is have anger generated whatever node you're playing, just as long as it is lich territory. It is frustrating playing pointless missions just to get anger up, but worse still playing pointless missions when all you are doing is getting someone elses anger up (and doing that 3 times for every once you do your own)

Probably already suggested is not having a limit to the thralls in a mission, if someone wants to farm all 3 of their requiems by staying in a 90 minute survival i say let them, it probably won't speed things up much and everyone hates extracting after 5 minutes of surival or 5 waves of a defense.

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Please, please, please, please tell me that this....

"Theyve confirmed that liches will also be able to crew your railjack at some point. It was during a past devstream. Supposedly thats what the command intrinsic will help with."

Posted here... https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1170276-after-45-liches-i-am-just-going-to-say-it/?tab=comments#comment-11383167

Is NOT true. Please DE tell me that you will not continue down this road. If the Liches were not some sort of bad comic relief, and actually fit within the game I would not mind, but in their current iteration, they are as immersion breaking as framefighter, and dog days BS. PLEASE, I implore you do not continue down this path, it can only lead you to ruin. (or perhaps it will just completely ruin my enjoyment, but hopefully that conveys the level of dislike I have for the "personality" of the liches, and how non-immersive, I find them)

 

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This feedback is from a newly returned player. The current state of Kuva Liches is the only one I have experienced. And I have to say I like it quite a bit. Even the murmur farming is enjoyable enough for me. It functions as some sort of difficulty slider for the Starchart and that's brilliant. I can play through normal Starchart missions farming murmur but do it at levels 50-110 as my lich levels up, and the kuva weapons are actually pretty good and I like how you can keep upgrading and tweaking them with valence. So the system has more longevity.

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Kuva Bramma needs the self-damage. So does Lenz.

1) It makes them interesting, not just another god weapon.

2) It is the only thing stopping them from being completely overpowered. I'd much rather they stay amazing and have to be used carefully than be safe but less awesome.

Please do not add a Cautious Shot mod for bows.

Or if you do, make it take off more than just 15% damage. Safety should come with a meaningful price tag.

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A few things with liches that I find to still be an issue.

Too many murmurs required, especially for the third one.

Unlocking the first mod last is terrible. First stab with the first wrong mod levels up the lich. Second stab with the second wrong mod levels up the lich. Then, once you know the first correct mod, which is the last one you unlocked, you have a 50/50 chance to place your other 2 mods in the right order. This might not sound so bad, but it extends the grind quite a bit. If you get it wrong then the aggro is reset. Whereas, if you're lucky enough to unlock all the mods in the right order, you have a much easier time of it.

Lastly, I just spawned a new lich, and the planet he's occupying only gave 4 nodes. Not enough to even unlock the first mod, so he's going to level up for free I guess. Just cover the planet with lich nodes. If a lich occupies a planet, then let it occupy the whole thing so we have variety, or choice of mission types. Defense is boring and makes me want to throw up, honestly.

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Just adding another voice for the "The Liches need more appropriate dialogue" in a future update. Having converted two Liches and having them still use their "I hate you" dialogue is just silly.

ANother thing with the Liches is that the system is in desperate need of more GAMEPLAY DEPTH (Of some kind). Right now it seems like its just a grind for weapons and once done there is little reason to come back to them. They just don't seem like an actual NEMESIS. More of a mild pain in the arse.

Perhaps players should have to do a "superhero team up" to co-operatively take down the Liches., each player "knocking" the Lich into a different "State" that requires the next player to tackle it, with the final attack going to the player who spawned it in the first place. Rewards for ALL team members. 

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6 hours ago, rstripn said:

Kuva Bramma needs the self-damage. So does Lenz.

1) It makes them interesting, not just another god weapon.

2) It is the only thing stopping them from being completely overpowered. I'd much rather they stay amazing and have to be used carefully than be safe but less awesome.

Please do not add a Cautious Shot mod for bows.

And yet it's OK to let you install it on the Ogris? Don't get me wrong, I love being able to use my bazooka as a melee weapon (that gun is getting SO MUCH FORMA when I finish maxing it out and put the right element on), but consistency is a good thing.

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Lich take-over needs to change.

The Liches that over any planet. That is... ridiculous, frankly. They could have influence, but not take over. Not to the point we have enemies completly swapped with Grineer.

What could be done:

You will not need to clear the influence from specific nodes, instead, the whole Planet is under it and you have an "Influence Bar", you would still need to kill Grineer and Thralls to lower the influence, but you will be able to chose any node you want to play in.

Corpus maps with Lich Influence will ALLY with Corpus, this will make the Stealth runs better since they will not fight each other and will team up against you.

Infested will not ally with them (DUH!) and will always be in-fighting in the area.

THIS IS A BIG ONE:

The Lich will still be stealling from you... but they will also be taking resources from the area passively (up to a limit). This means that, when you finish with them, you will get more than just what was stolen from you. So you will want to kill them after they collected a good amount of resources and rob them blind.

Note, that if the Lich influence in a world is ended with 100% of resources collected and their influence returns there later, they will start a new gathering from 0%, which means even bigger payout for you.

And the amount they can gather is influenced by their Rank.

 

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I recently have been hunting for larvlings with a friend of mine.
It became clear, that teamplay is discouraged strongly.

After my friend had the wrong weapon.
There was nothing left for the larvling, than simply die.

An improvement would be.
If like say, 7 to 10 seconds have passed, teammates can take the larvling as lich instead (should they desire the weapon).
Now the larvling goes pretty much to waste, after promising the wrong armament.

Spoiler

oXbMgbW.jpg

Maybe multiple spawns in a team, could be another possible feature.
The last option, might even reduce grinds.
Since a wider variety of weapons, is offered, per mission.

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