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Mithrah

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So, PVP has a been a long standing topic of discussion and contention in the warframe community. Its devisive as a lot of people dont think its needed in the game and others want a good version of it. I personally think the framework for PVP that is balanced and interesting already exists to some degree.

 

Rather than focus on our overpowered warframes and weapons which are undoubtedly a nightmare to balance in a PVP space, take a Star Wars Battlefront like approach. Have players be either Corpus or Grineer. Implement some of the special units of each faction as officers. Who wouldnt want to be a grineer maniac hunting people down? The best part is, movement could be kept in check because enemies arent as nimble as warframes, weapons could be kept in check because enemies dont have mods mudding the waters. And you already have all of the concepts for cool heros or officer units in the game. Have us play as Vor or Khela and fight Alad or Nef. Or be a lowly crewman. Thats just my suggestion, what do you think?

Edited by Mithrah
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I read an interesing opinion about this a while ago, in that gigantic pvp thread that has been going on for a couple of weeks now. It basically said that the problem of Conclave is it's complexity. PvP on Warframe heavily depends on reflexes and fast moving skills, and many people would agree that is way too advanced for the casual playerbase that this game is aimed to; it almost looks that PvP and PvE on this game are focused on opposite player demographics.
I like this idea of playing Conclave as corpus or grineers, because it would remove a lot of that complexity. Heck, it could even make me feel interested in playing it.

Edited by General-Pacman
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10 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Or be a lowly crewman.

I'd play the living crap out of conclave if I could be a crewman.

Besides, we can still have mods. Just different conclave specific mods, and they'd be much easier to balance with the limited amount of weapons and units. While I don't think that it's a viable alternative to conclave it's definitely very appealing.

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I'm not gonna play any gamemode that pits me against other players directly or indirectly. It can be the best and most fun thing since sliced kuva.

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39 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

So, PVP has a been a long standing topic of discussion and contention in the warframe community. Its devisive as a lot of people dont think its needed in the game and others want a good version of it. I personally think the framework for PVP that is balanced and interesting already exists to some degree.

 

Rather than focus on our overpowered warframes and weapons which are undoubtedly a nightmare to balance in a PVP space, take a Star Wars Battlefront like approach. Have players be either Corpus or Grineer. Implement some of the special units of each faction as hero units. Who wouldnt want to be a grineer maniac hunting people down? The best part is, movement could be kept in check because enemies arent as nimble as warframes, weapons could be kept in check because enemies dont have mods mudding the waters. And you already have all of the concepts for cool heros or officer units in the game. Have us play as Vor or Khela and fight Alad or Nef. Or be a lowly crewman. Thats just my suggestion, what do you think?

I like this idea, honestly.

Warframe is a power fantasy game, and the warframes themselves lend a lot of that power to the fantasy.  Nerfing them in PvP goes a long way towards removing that fantasy, and thus feels "off" compared to the rest of the game.  Better to just not.  This idea, or something like it, would allow those who want PvP to experience the thrills they want without detracting from the feel of the rest of the game.

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48 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

So, PVP has a been a long standing topic of discussion and contention in the warframe community. Its devisive as a lot of people dont think its needed in the game and others want a good version of it. I personally think the framework for PVP that is balanced and interesting already exists to some degree.

 

Rather than focus on our overpowered warframes and weapons which are undoubtedly a nightmare to balance in a PVP space, take a Star Wars Battlefront like approach. Have players be either Corpus or Grineer. Implement some of the special units of each faction as hero units. Who wouldnt want to be a grineer maniac hunting people down? The best part is, movement could be kept in check because enemies arent as nimble as warframes, weapons could be kept in check because enemies dont have mods mudding the waters. And you already have all of the concepts for cool heros or officer units in the game. Have us play as Vor or Khela and fight Alad or Nef. Or be a lowly crewman. Thats just my suggestion, what do you think?

Kinda like this idea, though I dunno if it can conflict lore wise (I mean, what would teshin do?)

I definitely want to be Vor and give a speech though.

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I'd get behind that idea. They could even implement the Battlefield/Battlefront progression where you rank up and get access to new weapons and attachments for them as you go. I think I'd prefer the Battlefront approach, with static weapons and then ability cards as you progress. Less of a mess to balance around compared to being able to add grips, barrels, sights and everything else in between like it is in Battlefield, where it is also based on realism. Battlefront even had a good system for hero usage which was fun as hell aswell as the seperate game mode where heroes faced of against heroes backed up by normal troops.

If they seperate it enough from the rest of the game it would be a thing that could potentially attract new players aswell that only look for an alternative to one of the BFieldFronts or CoD. That in turn could attract enough players to have good clan hosted dedicated servers aswell. I would probably play the hek out of it.

They could probably also cash in on it with cosmetics for the different factions.

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Ah yes PVP in warframe would work perfectly is we exclude warframes. Despite my flippant comment I could actually see this being one of if not the only viable way to make PVP work.

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8 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

I'm not gonna play any gamemode that pits me against other players directly or indirectly. It can be the best and most fun thing since sliced kuva.

Even if it was something that was Pve  v Pve? Like fighting enemies and that in turn spawns enemies for the other team until one team is vanquished by overwhelming enemies? It's still competition, but you're still doing the same old song and dance in terms of Warframe's core endless gameplay loop.

Edited by Skaleek

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This is a fokin' great idea!
I would love to be a nully and ruin the day of everyone with my lanka.
Or an ancient healer.
Or that flying greneer bombards.

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Funny enough playing that summer game with the water guns I thought that it would have been perfect for PvP. just simple mechanics and your skill at movement. It was meant as fun anyway so I thought it was a lost opportunity to let players PVP. 

As for the other ideas I would LOVE to play some crew men. To take a page from one of the overwatch modes; start off as a crewmen or other lowly grineer/infested and every kill get more powerful figure. Because honestly who is going to pick anything but a bombarder or other super strong character. 

But an even cooler idea would be to pick a faction. PIck from appropriate faction weaponry and instead of a mod just giving a boost it give one of the powers from that faction. Fist slam knock down, defense fields, flight slam, hook and reel enemies etc.  Then it doesn't matter who you pick you just make up some crazy kit to fight with.

If DE feels evil they can take the more fun ones as commanders and use them against us in PvE.

Okay there is a last way to do this. Only use operators. Then let players take over other units in the area. So you can jump into a unit use all its weapons and powers until it is killed at which you pop out. Or maybe just fight as your operator. The conclave is supposed to be about the operators training anyway so why not just lock it until you get an operator and then go at it. Much less powers to have to balance. We get to play a game mode with characters we have all spent some time styling. And a limited set of powers. 

Still wouldn't be my first thought playing warframe to do PvP but if it is a fun mode then I'd use it more than once a year. 

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1 hour ago, Aadi880 said:

Kinda like this idea, though I dunno if it can conflict lore wise (I mean, what would teshin do?)

Sell it as a sort of VR 'know your enemy' simulation. That'd also explain why it has relatively few combatants.

 

I like the idea, and it's relatively feasible, since we share a lot of abilities with potential classes already - or have powers that could be finagled into them. For example, Blade Storm could be the Manic's pounce if you limited it's range and number of targets, Razorwing with a Dera could be for Ospreys, and so on. Custom models that use the Warframe mesh might be needed for cost-effectiveness (apparently enemy animations aren't up to the same snuff as player animations), but in my mind, there's definitely worse ideas for PvP in Warframe.

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I had suggested something sometime ago in one of the comments about PvP like this. So I support this as well. 

As to the lore implication we already have, not one, but two ways to include it. 

Nyx mind control, and tenno transference. 

Would also add an interesting respawn mechanic where you can choose the character to control and have specific character abilities limited to the faction without breaking lore or consistency (not that DE give two S#&$s about either of those) . 

Like you can use the flame blade teleport, the eximus abilities of different kind, spawning additional allies as hyekka master or those little yellow things I keep forgetting the names of that have the appearance of poodles with banana shoes, maybe even a *gasp* nullifiers. 

The possibilities are vast but are within reasonable power I feel. 

 

P. S. It could even be an expansion of our current invasion missions, I would legit love to play the missions through the eyes of a Grineer grunt or corpus crewman. 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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I mean. For lore it could be as simple as Cephalon Simaris is running battle simulations between the Corpus and Grineer for....science....of course. 😉

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Good advices but please leave the PvE alone. What you suggest should be a new mode. Over the past 20 months or so, the original spirit of Warframe’s PvE game play has been balanced, nerfed and altered greatly and many players left. Now Warframe Is out of focus and hated by many veterans and complained by many new players. If these ideas are added to the PvE part of the game, it will be even worse.  

Edited by George_PPS
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4 hours ago, Mithrah said:

So, PVP

And I stopped reading there.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against PvP by itself, it's just that this is obviously a PvE game, and spending valuable time and ressource on a gamemmode that like 20 people out of several million would actually play seems like a waste to me.

Then again, I wouldn't play PvP in any form, anyway. The time I got spawnkilled by a berserker IN A SAFE ZONE during a quest in Black Desert Online was enough PvP for the next 20 years.

Like, seriously, I played several PvP games in the past - Battlefield 3, War Thunder, World of Warships, you name it. And every single time I've come to the same conclusion - PvP is bad at it's very core. You can have an OPTIONAL PvP mode for all I care, but if I get even one popup telling me "Hey, you should play PvP!" I'm out.

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1 hour ago, o0Despair0o said:

And I stopped reading there.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against PvP by itself, it's just that this is obviously a PvE game, and spending valuable time and ressource on a gamemmode that like 20 people out of several million would actually play seems like a waste to me.

Then again, I wouldn't play PvP in any form, anyway. The time I got spawnkilled by a berserker IN A SAFE ZONE during a quest in Black Desert Online was enough PvP for the next 20 years.

Like, seriously, I played several PvP games in the past - Battlefield 3, War Thunder, World of Warships, you name it. And every single time I've come to the same conclusion - PvP is bad at it's very core. You can have an OPTIONAL PvP mode for all I care, but if I get even one popup telling me "Hey, you should play PvP!" I'm out.

I dunno man. A lot more than 20 people play Destiny 2's PVP, or Halo, or CoD, or League of Legends, or DOTA. 

The most popular video game of all time is Fortnite, and its not for its storymode.

Our perception that it's obviously a PvE game is just because it hasn't been done well here. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done well. And of course, no one has to play PVP its just an option for those like myself that prefer it to PVE.

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34 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

A lot more than 20 people play Destiny 2's PVP, or Halo, or CoD, or League of Legends, or DOTA. 

...I meant of Warframe players, specifically. You're not gonna find many that'd actually play PvP regularly.

35 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

The most popular video game of all time is Fortnite, and its not for its storymode.

But for ridiculous advertising left, right and center as well as unholy amounts of toxicity. Seriously, I can't watch a single episode of literally ANY anime without having at least one ad about fortnite, and that's with adblock enabled. This sh*t is everywhere.

If there's one thing that gets a PvP game to dominate the market, it's mainstream battle royale BS.

 

Like, I played the official PvE game that Fortnite was supposed to be. That stuff costed me 40 bucks. And it was a nice game, this whole BR stuff was just some standalone pvp spinoff that became so popular that yet another promising PvE game was left to die. This is also part of the reason I hate PvP games - it kills potentially amazing PvE games just because the developers know that there's always enough tryhards throwing money at them just to dominate in the game.

 

41 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Our perception that it's obviously a PvE game is just because it hasn't been done well here. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done well. And of course, no one has to play PVP its just an option for those like myself that prefer it to PVE.

Like I said, OPTIONAL PvP is all fine and dandy, but many games out there tend to force it onto PvE players (lookin' at you, Destiny 2) in order to progress through the story/missions/whatever and it infuriates me.

 

But the worst is forced open-world pvp in games like Black Desert Online. Farming some mobs for better gear? Here, have some random Berserker tryhard that's 200 levels above you!

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6 hours ago, Mithrah said:

what do you think?

That if you're here on the forums, it will fall on deaf ears

Warframe is the game for people who consciously avoid PvP. They won't be impressed by PvP suggestions, even if they're good suggestions

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1 hour ago, Mithrah said:

Our perception that it's obviously a PvE game is just because it hasn't been done well here.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is incorrect. Warframe was designed at the outset as a PVE game as it did not have any kind of PVP mode when it launched. It was only after a certain portion of players incessantly, and loudly, complained and cried for a PVP mode that DE finally relented and made one. First it was 2v2 duels but that was quickly replaced by Conclave in Sept. 2013. Since then, with the exception of additional modes like Ceph. Capture and Lunaro, Conclave has remained largely unchanged while Warframe as a whole has undergone massive overhauls. DE has stated many times that their internal statistics show PVP sees very little play: less-so than Trials (Raids) did, if I remember correctly. And recall that their decision to completely removed raids was based partly on the lack of participation. The Trials were broken and buggy, yes, but the lack of participation in them made it hard for DE to justify spending time and resources to fix them. Catch-22, sure: they're not played because they're broken, but they're not getting fixed because they're not played. But, that's what it was. So to is likely the case with PVP: very few people play it so DE has little reason or incentive to work on it. Instead they devote their time and resources toward PVE content that their own numbers show to be the most popular and most played.

I hate PVP. I admit that up front, make no attempt to hide it, and understand that it biases my reaction toward threads like these.

That said, I used to play Destiny, and it had a PVP mode but was meant to be and balanced for PVE. But, over time, the streamers and the try-hards of PVP kept harping at Bungie to balance for PVP, so they did, and it started to hurt the PVE experience. Then, in Destiny 2, the whole game was built around PVP from the start, with no regard given to how it made the PVE experience suck. PVE players railed against the change and were told in no uncertain terms that PVP was more important than PVE, so we just had to deal with it. A game I loved to play turned to crap because PVP infected the development process.

I understand that people like PVP: the glut of PVP-only games and games with PVP modes is a testament to that. But there aren't many co-op PVE games out there that are free from PVP, so when those of us looking for such a game find one, we get pretty defensive about keeping it that way.

I welcome anyone to play Warframe with me, from that Fortnite guy (what's his name? Ninja?) to the pros of Overwatch League. If you want a good PVE experience I'll be your huckleberry. But if you want PVP, go somewhere else. This game is not for you, and your suggestions/pleas will fall on deaf ears.

/rant

Edited by Sentinel-14
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33 minutes ago, Sentinel-14 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, this is incorrect. Warframe was designed at the outset as a PVE game as it did not have any kind of PVP mode when it launched. It was only after a certain portion of players incessantly, and loudly, complained and cried for a PVP mode that DE finally relented and made one. First it was 2v2 duels but that was quickly replaced by Conclave in Sept. 2013. Since then, with the exception of additional modes like Ceph. Capture and Lunaro, Conclave has remained largely unchanged while Warframe as a whole has undergone massive overhauls. DE has stated many times that their internal statistics show PVP sees very little play: less-so than Trials (Raids) did, if I remember correctly. And recall that their decision to completely removed raids was based partly on the lack of participation. The Trials were broken and buggy, yes, but the lack of participation in them made it hard for DE to justify spending time and resources to fix them. Catch-22, sure: they're not played because they're broken, but they're not getting fixed because they're not played. But, that's what it was. So to is likely the case with PVP: very few people play it so DE has little reason or incentive to work on it. Instead they devote their time and resources toward PVE content that their own numbers show to be the most popular and most played.

I hate PVP. I admit that up front, make no attempt to hide it, and understand that it biases my reaction toward threads like these.

That said, I used to play Destiny, and it had a PVP mode but was meant to be and balanced for PVE. But, over time, the streamers and the try-hards of PVP kept harping at Bungie to balance for PVP, so they did, and it started to hurt the PVE experience. Then, in Destiny 2, the whole game was built around PVP from the start, with no regard given to how it made the PVE experience suck. PVE players railed against the change and were told in no uncertain terms that PVP was more important than PVE, so we just had to deal with it. A game I loved to play turned to crap because PVP infected the development process.

I understand that people like PVP: the glut of PVP-only games and games with PVP modes is a testament to that. But there aren't many co-op PVE games out there that are free from PVP, so when those of us looking for such a game find one, we get pretty defensive about keeping it that way.

I welcome anyone to play Warframe with me, from that Fortnite guy (what's his name? Ninja?) to the pros of Overwatch League. If you want a good PVE experience I'll be your huckleberry. But if you want PVP, go somewhere else. This game is not for you, and your suggestions/pleas will fall on deaf ears.

/rant

Fair criticism for sure. But that's what the suggestion is looking to solve. If the PVP mode doesnt take mods or warframes into account, its balance won't change PVE content at all. Also, a lot of games are designed as PvE games upfront but then add successful PVP content (Fortnite and Gears of War being premier examples) 

Heres the thing that players who are staunchly against playing PVP are overlooking. If you attract more players because you offer a more complete package, then the game will be more successful, which in turn means more meaningful content for the PVE side of the game as well. 

I'm a founder that grew up playing Dark Sector on the PS3, so I very well know what the game originally was and what the vision for it was, as well. If you love Warframe like I do, and want to see it succeed, you have to look at solutions to what it doesn't do well. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Fair criticism for sure. But that's what the suggestion is looking to solve. If the PVP mode doesnt take mods or warframes into account, its balance won't change PVE content at all. Also, a lot of games are designed as PvE games upfront but then add successful PVP content (Fortnite and Gears of War being premier examples) 

I understand what the suggestion is trying to solve. It's trying to solve the issue with a game mode that I'm saying should not exist in the first place. If PVP doesn't exist, there is no problem with it. Furthermore, as I said DE's own numbers indicate that PVP is simply not something the playerbase spends any appreciable time with and is thus not worth their time to develop. They would be better served by deleting it entirely (as they did Trials) and putting this topic to rest.

52 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

Heres the thing that players who are staunchly against playing PVP are overlooking. If you attract more players because you offer a more complete package, then the game will be more successful, which in turn means more meaningful content for the PVE side of the game as well. 

I'm a founder that grew up playing Dark Sector on the PS3, so I very well know what the game originally was and what the vision for it was, as well. If you love Warframe like I do, and want to see it succeed, you have to look at solutions to what it doesn't do well. 

 

We're not overlooking anything. We're well aware that having a PVP mode will attract more players. The problem is that it will attract PVP players, and that's what we don't want. When players come to Warframe now they go in knowing it's a PVE game because it's not advertised to have PVP. That seems to be enough to keep the PVP crowd away, and I am more than happy with that. I don't want PVP players coming in and demanding the game be twisted to suit their tastes. Balance changes, ranks, leaderboards, tournaments, competitive seasons, anything to stroke their e-peen and feed their ego. And that is what will happen: I've seen it happen before. Competitive people cant help but compete when there is opportunity to do so. Hell, I had a guy race me to the end of a mission once just because he was running Volt and I was running Nezha.

You say the PVP mode can be done separately so it doesn't affect the PVE balance. This is true, it can be, but that just means they're building essentially a whole new game. Time and resources spent developing something that their own numbers say is unpopular. I recall when Flappy Zephyr came out. And when Frame Fighter came out, and Wyrmius. The reaction to each was generally positive, but overshadowed by a general attitude of "you were working on this instead of the actual game?" Warframe's community does not seem to appreciate DE wasting time and resources on frivolity when there are so many other issues that need addressing. There are even people who think the Shawzin was a waste of time.

As I've said before, there is a glut of PVP games out there for players to scratch that itch. Not so many for the co-op PVE crowd, which is why we get so defensive anytime someone brings up adding (or changing) PVP in Warframe. PVP is everywhere in gaming and we just want one small corner where we don't have to deal with it.

52 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

you have to look at solutions to what it doesn't do well.

It can't do it poorly if it doesn't do it at all. 😉

Warframe, by all accounts, it is succeeding just fine with the direction it's going. It doesn't need PVP.

Edited by Sentinel-14
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16 minutes ago, Sentinel-14 said:

I understand what the suggestion is trying to solve. It's trying to solve the issue with a game mode that I'm saying should not exist in the first place. If PVP doesn't exist, there is no problem with it. Furthermore, as I said DE's own numbers indicate that PVP is simply not something the playerbase spends any appreciable time with and is thus not worth their time to develop. They would be better served by deleting it entirely (as they did Trials) and putting this topic to rest.

We're not overlooking anything. We're well aware that having a PVP mode will attract more players. The problem is that it will attract PVP players, and that's what we don't want. When players come to Warframe now they go in knowing it's a PVE game because it's not advertised to have PVP. That seems to be enough to keep the PVP crowd away, and I am more than happy with that. I don't want PVP players coming in and demanding the game be twisted to suit their tastes. Balance changes, ranks, leaderboards, tournaments, competitive seasons, anything to stroke their e-peen and feed their ego. And that is what will happen: I've seen it happen before. Competitive people cant help but compete when there is opportunity to do so. Hell, I had a guy race me to the end of a mission once just because he was running Volt and I was running Nezha.

You say the PVP mode can be done separately so it doesn't affect the PVE balance. This is true, it can be, but that just means they're building essentially a whole new game. Time and resources spent developing something that their own numbers say is unpopular. I recall when Flappy Zephyr came out. And when Frame Fighter came out, and Wyrmius. The reaction to each was generally positive, but overshadowed by a general attitude of "you were working on this instead of the actual game?" Warframe's community does not seem to appreciate DE wasting time and resources on frivolity when there are so many other issues that need addressing. There are even people who think the Shawzin was a waste of time.

As I've said before, there is a glut of PVP games out there for players to scratch that itch. Not so many for the co-op PVE crowd, which is why we get so defensive anytime someone brings up adding (or changing) PVP in Warframe. PVP is everywhere in gaming and we just want one small corner where we don't have to deal with it.

Warframe, by all accounts, it is succeeding just fine with the direction it's going. It doesn't need PVP.

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you said but since it would just devolve into an argument, ill just leave it at that.

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3 minutes ago, Mithrah said:

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you said but since it would just devolve into an argument, ill just leave it at that.

Agreeing to disagree is how mature people finish a conversation. The internet could certainly use more of it. Good day to you. 🙂

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